creation in the Qur'an

Prove Islam is from God, why it is the 'One True Religion'.
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manfred
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by manfred »

Still better than no attempt of an answer at all. Can you not see that the story, if accepted as an account of events, insists on a geocentric views of the universe. The earth is presented as at least equivalent to the rest of the universe, or as even more prominent, because it was made first, and the universe above and and around....

It does not reflect the fact that the earth is merely a tiny insignificant speck in a vast universe, of which it is a part, like a grain of sand is part of all the beaches on earth.

All this can of course be understood when you appreciate that a medieval man is merely re-telling and old story he does not understand fully. But when you postulate a divine author you get into the territory of the absurd.
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Mughal
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by Mughal »

manfred wrote:Still better than no attempt of an answer at all. Can you not see that the story, if accepted as an account of events, insists on a geocentric views of the universe. The earth is presented as at least equivalent to the rest of the universe, or as even more prominent, because it was made first, and the universe above and and around....

It does not reflect the fact that the earth is merely a tiny insignificant speck in a vast universe, of which it is a part, like a grain of sand is part of all the beaches on earth.

All this can of course be understood when you appreciate that a medieval man is merely re-telling and old story he does not understand fully. But when you postulate a divine author you get into the territory of the absurd.
Dear manfred, I have clearly explained the way to understand the quranic text properly. I do not have time to explain each and every issue in detail for the time being.

For knowing what the quran is saying about the creation read verses which explain things about the creation and you will see that the quran explains things correctly.

For example, you are saying the quran talks about geocentric universe. No it does not. The quran talks about different processes regarding creation. In surah 78 it explains what solar system is and the position of the sun within the planets of solar system. Here the quran puts the sun in the middle of the eight planets. Notice also that the word used for earth is MIHAADAA. Do you know what MIHAADAA is. It is basket in which a baby is placed to rest and the basket is tied to something for swinging freely. It also uses word AUTAADAA for mountains. That is for damping oscillation which could occur while the earth is in flight around the sun. You know the weights clamped on car tyre rims for balancing them after a puncture repair or after a new tyre is put on a rim due to uneven distribution of weight in the tyre. The same idea is used in ships to dampen oscillation in ships while they are in sea so that they do not become unstable or turn upside down due to instability.

The earth is centre of the universe because of why God created this universe ie due to creation of human beings who live on the earth. In other words the earth is centre of God's attention in whole of his creation. It is because human beings are God's conscious creation which can think independently and can fulfil purpose for which God created it.

We do not have quran's proper interpretation yet because muslims have no time for doing that. To do that people need a lot of properly understood information about self evident things in the universe. Educated people leave religions because they know better about this world than the nonsense of mullas or rabis or clergies or pandits or gurus etc. The day highly educated people learn scriptural language properly and reinterpret the God revealed scripture things will start making sense. Nonetheless we are gradually moving in that direction as we become stuck with what we have learned so far in our lives.

Word of God needs highly educated and highly thinking people for its proper understanding and muslims have not been those people for quite a while now. Odd individuals like me try to do what they can but it is too little and for many too late also. Those who have easy life they are busy enjoying themselves and those who have hard life are running after jobs to get their daily living. So this task of proper interpretation of the quran is going to take a very long time but time will come when people will have no choice but to learn to make proper sense of the scripture.

It is because only the quran contains information which people can never know all by themselves. It tells them reason why God created them and gives them information about the program of God for this world and its people. It tells them the proper way to fulfil the purpose for which people have been created by God. It tells them with certainty about their origin or where they came from and why or how and where they are heading and why etc etc.

Regards and all the best.
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Hombre
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by Hombre »

Mughal
I have decided to hold your feet to fire - check, re-check & verify your high minded monologue which often make little sense.

Reading Surah 78 I must give a credit - Quran does predict Donald TRUMP will come down from hell and rule us. But the rest of that surah reveal nothing new the Hebrew Bible & re-enforced in New Testament in which they already described in the book of Genesis - rather at length with more clarity then the copy described in the Quran.

Quran Sura 78. THE ANNOUNCEMENT a
A Meccan sura. The disbelievers often asked incredulously about the Resurrection. This sura gives evidence of God’s power, then explains what will happen on the Day of Resurrection, and the respective fates of believers and disbelievers.

In the name of God, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy 1What are they asking about? 2The momentous announcement 3about which they differ. 4They will find out. 5In the end they will find out. 6Did We not make the earth smooth, 7and make the mountains to keep it stable? b 8Did We not create you in pairs, 9give you sleep for rest, 10the night as a cover, 11and the day for your livelihood? 12Did We not build seven strong [heavens] above you, 13and make a blazing lamp? 14Did We not send water pouring down from the clouds 15to bring forth with it grain, plants, 16and luxuriant gardens? 17A time has been appointed for the Day of Decision: 18a Day when the Trumpet will sound and you will come forward in crowds, 19when the sky will open up like wide portals, 20when the mountains will vanish like a mirage. 21Hell lies in wait, 22a home for oppressors 23to stay in for a long, long time, 24where they will taste no coolness nor drink 25except one that is scalding and dark c ––26a fitting requital, 27for they did not fear a reckoning, 28and they rejected Our messages as lies. 29We have recorded everything in a Record. 30‘Taste this: all you will get from Us is more torment.’
31For those who were aware of God there is supreme fulfilment: 32private gardens, vineyards, 33nubile, well-matched companions, 34and an overflowing cup. 35There they will hear no vain or lying talk: 36a reward from your Lord, a fitting gift 37from the Lord of the heavens and earth and everything between, the Lord of Mercy. They will have no authority from Him to speak. 38On the Day

when the Spirit a and the angels stand in rows, they will not speak except for those to whom the Lord of Mercy gives permission, who will say only what is right. 39That is the Day of Truth. So whoever wishes to do so should take the path that leads to his Lord. 40We have warned you of imminent torment, on the Day when every person will see what their own hands have sent ahead for them, when the disbeliever will say, ‘If only I were dust!’ b
[/b]
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Hombre
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

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SAM wrote: Stupid answer attempt, your HB has no answer. ..... try again, don't guessing. .. :lol:
Nether HB nor the NT engage - don't waste their time & space on Fata Morgana.

Since Ahmar like you does believe if those juicy 1000 night Arabian stories of mirage & Fata Morgana as described in the Quran, you keep banging your head on nonsense in the Quran.

The sad part is - you & mughal are so convinced that Quran is original and authentic, such that you can't even see reality staring you straight in the eyes.
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manfred
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by manfred »

Mughal, the Qur'an is not open to just any old interpretation as you feel like. When it speaks of creation it means to tell us a sequence of actual events. When you try to apply allegorical ideas to the text, for example by saying that the earth is the "centre" of the univers because of the fact that it has humans on it, you find that this in not supported by the text. There are in fact MANY examples in the Qur'an that place the earth literally at the centre of the universe.

You have not provided any "correct reading" of the text as you claim, but you have merely allowed your imagination to run away with you to in effect rewrite the Qur'an. Mohammed would not recognise what you say.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"
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Hombre
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by Hombre »

manfred wrote:Mughal, the Qur'an is not open to just any old interpretation as you feel like. When it speaks of creation it means to tell us a sequence of actual events. When you try to apply allegorical ideas to the text, for example by saying that the earth is the "centre" of the univers because of the fact that it has humans on it, you find that this in not supported by the text. There are in fact MANY examples in the Qur'an that place the earth literally at the centre of the universe.

You have not provided any "correct reading" of the text as you claim, but you have merely allowed your imagination to run away with you to in effect rewrite the Qur'an. Mohammed would not recognise what you say.
EXACTLY!!!!!!!
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SAM
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by SAM »

Hombre wrote:EXACTLY!!!!!!!
:clap: HB is a holy garbage and junk book.. :lol:
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)
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Hombre
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by Hombre »

SAM wrote:
Hombre wrote:EXACTLY!!!!!!!
:clap: HB is a holy garbage and junk book.. :lol:
SAMI SAMI boy. I will report you to Imam shish-kabab for heresy.
Hebrew Bible is THE true source of your Quran. You have not even read the first chapter - and you decide it is garbage?.
If the HB is garbage - to describe your Quran we will have to invent a new word, because the word "garbage" is still a compliment.
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manfred
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by manfred »

Hombre, I am beginning to see how SAM's mind works. He is not processing information in a normal way. When someone raises a question mark about Islam or the Qur'an, he never gets as far as looking at it and try to find a reply. Instead his brain first asks WHO is asking and if this is one of the "worst of animals" he ignores the question. In fact automatically assumes it is an attack or an insult, and he responds very much as if someone had insulted him personally. That is why we get the squibs and irrelevant nonsense.... In other words, he seems incapable of processing information in the normal way....


A bit like this:

"Here is a demonstration of the theorem of Pythagoras"....


"Who are you to demonstrate anything .... and Pythagoras was Greek and they are all into sex with young boys and therefore he cannot possible have anything that is worth knowing about..."
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"
antineoETC
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by antineoETC »

manfred wrote:Hombre, I am beginning to see how SAM's mind works. He is not processing information in a normal way. When someone raises a question mark about Islam or the Qur'an, he never gets as far as looking at it and try to find a reply. Instead his brain first asks WHO is asking and if this is one of the "worst of animals" he ignores the question. In fact automatically assumes it is an attack or an insult, and he responds very much as if someone had insulted him personally. That is why we get the squibs and irrelevant nonsense.... In other words, he seems incapable of processing information in the normal way....
Some years back SAM defined "respect" as "respecting Muslims and Islam". He calls the Bible "BS" and demands respect in return. This typical Muslim demand for respect from those towards whom they have no respect is the logical consequence of believing in the divine origin of the Quran. In fact, to a Muslim simply rejecting Islam or expressing beliefs that contradict the Quran's version of "reality" is itself being disrespectful. SAM REALLY believes christians are being disrespectful towards Islam by claiming Jesus was crucified, which contradicts the Quran's assertion that he wasn't. So when SAM calls the Bible BS he is merely, from his viewpoint, justly repaying prior christian/Jewish "disrespect" of Islam with disrespect of his own. This is why where a population of Muslims settle a spiral of violence and counter violence tends to set in, with the Muslims GENUINELY believing they are "defending" themselves from aggression started by the non-Muslims.
"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website
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SAM
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

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antineoETC wrote:
Some years back SAM defined "respect" as "respecting Muslims and Islam". He calls the Bible "BS" and demands respect in return. This typical Muslim demand for respect from those towards whom they have no respect is the logical consequence of believing in the divine origin of the Quran. In fact, to a Muslim simply rejecting Islam or expressing beliefs that contradict the Quran's version of "reality" is itself being disrespectful. SAM REALLY believes christians are being disrespectful towards Islam by claiming Jesus was crucified, which contradicts the Quran's assertion that he wasn't. So when SAM calls the Bible BS he is merely, from his viewpoint, justly repaying prior christian/Jewish "disrespect" of Islam with disrespect of his own. This is why where a population of Muslims settle a spiral of violence and counter violence tends to set in, with the Muslims GENUINELY believing they are "defending" themselves from aggression started by the non-Muslims.
:lotpot: Garbage analyst about me. The only religion that fears Islam is Christians and Jews. Because no other religion besides Islam can thwart, eliminate and destroy their religion. :whistling:
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)
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Hombre
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by Hombre »

antineoETC & manfred
You both hit it on the nail. SAM's defensive posture with the need "to strike back" is more common among groups with extreme & narrow views - be it religious, political or social. Islam being an extremist religion with clear distinction between "good" or "bad", "acceptable" or "rejected" are clearly marked. Therefore, it is common among these groups to immediately deflect the focus of the conversation from their domain (Islam) to the other side (Judea & Christianity"). Btw, the same behaviour is found among the most conservative & poorly educated republicans whom - when challenged they use the same tactic of "what about the Liberals"? or refer to them with disdain.

Our SAM has no effective answer to our legitimate challenge to his (and mughal) Quran. That is, if the Quran is indeed the original & its contents are words of God - that should be understood that - anything written in that book is unique (think of copyrighted) & not found in any other book(s). BUT we all know from the HB & NT the same biblical stories written in the Quran already have been told some hundreds of years before. That puts them in a big dilemma. Since they can't admit the fact - they resort to only way they know - emit "Garbage" from their mouths. :lotpot:

There is another element. From birth-to-grave Muslims are taught that Islam is superior to & came to REPLACE Judea & Christianity - not live in peace side-by-side with others. That explains the reason for their demand for "respect" their religion while they need not reciprocate in kind.

Since Muslims like him can't accept proven facts with rational and intellectual counter-argument to the claim Quran is mere poor copy of our respective holy book - he resorts to insults which to me is yet another manifestation of the gutter type mentality to which Islam teaches him & others like him.

For some reason, I am sure deep in his heart SAM knows we are right and many aspect of his Islam are wrong. Otherwise he would not linger here for past 10 years in vivid engagement with other non-Muslims here. It is rather his Pride - as the only reason which prevents him from coming forth and admit some of the flaws in the Quran & Islam itself.
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by Fernando »

manfred wrote:A bit like this:

"Here is a demonstration of the theorem of Pythagoras"....


"Who are you to demonstrate anything .... and Pythagoras was Greek and they are all into sex with young boys and therefore he cannot possible have anything that is worth knowing about..."
Interesting example, Manfred. Talk about pot-kettle-black: the Muslim paradise is about little but sex, including pearly boys, and in Afghanistan at least, delight in pearly boys is endemic among the Muslim men.
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah
antineoETC
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by antineoETC »

SAM wrote: Because no other religion besides Islam can thwart, eliminate and destroy their religion. :whistling:
SAM Muslims deep down have no confidence that their religion could stand in a fully free "arena of ideas". Why otherwise do so many Muslims become so murderously angry at any hint that their cherished "truths" are challenged? Why do apostates from Islam need to be killed?
"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website
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SAM
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

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antineoETC wrote: SAM Muslims deep down have no confidence that their religion could stand in a fully free "arena of ideas". Why otherwise do so many Muslims become so murderously angry at any hint that their cherished "truths" are challenged? Why do apostates from Islam need to be killed?
Show me verses from the Quran that apostates needs to be killed.

Instant death for apostates in the Bible.

Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."

Deuteronomy 17:3-5 "And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."

2 Chronicles 15:13 "All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman."
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)
antineoETC
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

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SAM wrote:Show me verses from the Quran that apostates needs to be killed
You've gone all Quran-only have you SAM?
"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website
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SAM
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by SAM »

antineoETC wrote:
SAM wrote:Show me verses from the Quran that apostates needs to be killed
You've gone all Quran-only have you SAM?
Nice try...You failed to prove to me, there are verses from the Quran that apostates must be killed.
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by Ariel »

SAM wrote:Nice try...You failed to prove to me, there are verses from the Quran that apostates must be killed.
Quran (4:89) - "They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliya' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah (to Muhammad). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliya' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them."

Quran (9:11-12) But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."
The heart of the wise inclines to the right,
but the heart of the fool to the left.
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SAM
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by SAM »

Ariel wrote:
Quran (4:89) - "They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliya' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah (to Muhammad). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliya' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them."

Quran (9:11-12) But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."
Nice try Ariel .. those two verses have nothing to do with apostasy. It is speaking about hypocrites (4:89) and the Treaty of Hudaibiya (9:11-12)
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)
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Hombre
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by Hombre »

SAM wrote:Nice try Ariel .. those two verses have nothing to do with apostasy. It is speaking about hypocrites (4:89) and the Treaty of Hudaibiya (9:11-12)
Cut the crap & get off that horse SAM. :horseride:
Go to my latest post and tell me where I can get info on Muhammad's early life from official Islamic sites?

DO IT Yah-Mamzer
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