creation in the Qur'an

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Hombre
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by Hombre »

manfred wrote:SAM, the more texts you mention the worse it gets.....So let's a a quick look at this one too....
Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
To some Muslims this is about the "big bang", but not to you it seems, as you have dismissed that as "conjecture".
dear manfred.
when SAM admonishes us for "not understanding big-bang" - he has a point. Please let me explain!!!! OK????

The big bang to which he is talking about is the one when his girlfriend punched him in the nose. That punch made him see an explosion of stars which he calls "The Big Bang". Not the other one which had occurred some 13.7 Billions years ago
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by SAM »

Hombre wrote: dear manfred.
when SAM admonishes us for "not understanding big-bang" - he has a point. Please let me explain!!!! OK????

The big bang to which he is talking about is the one when his girlfriend punched him in the nose. That punch made him see an explosion of stars which he calls "The Big Bang". Not the other one which had occurred some 13.7 Billions years ago
First of all, your Hebrew Bible - Genesis Chapter 1 בְּרבְּאשִׁית is full of garbage. :lol:
It's better for you to know how your father 'Ball Bang" your mom to produce you. :roflmao:

Kafir scientists know nothing and clueless, how the universe was created, they made assumptions and conclusions billions of years ago, out of nowhere something happened ... the Big Bang events BOOM, BOOM, POP, POP.. which produced majority of atoms hydrogen, helium and lithium....about how the universe came to be.

The kafir scientists made no statement and could not say, how was the Big Bang created or originated before the massive explosion? What caused the explosion? Is there an explosion like an atomic bomb that can blow up the planet or the blast that causes all the stars, planets, sun, moon and so on in a mass to spread and continue to spread today?

They had no other choice but to accept the Big Bang theory. That's why I say the Big Bang theory is only conjecture and guessing.

You know, 10 years ago I mentioned the creation of the universe in this FFI forum... that without Earth there is no the existence of Universe,Space,Galaxy,Sun, Moon, Stars and the Planets etc. In other word God created all things because of EARTH. :D

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=3260&p=67547&hilit ... #%20p67547" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; :reading:
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Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
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Hombre
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

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SAM wrote:First of all, your Hebrew Bible - Genesis Chapter 1 בְּרבְּאשִׁית is full of garbage. :lol:
If that's the case - why your Quran repeats the same story of Genesis & creation of the universe?
It's better for you to know how your father 'Ball Bang" your mom to produce you. :roflmao:
I guess you were conceived a different way - not knowing whom among the 4 wives is your biological mother. Or was conceived by te milk delivery man.

You know, 10 years ago I mentioned the creation of the universe in this FFI forum... that without Earth there is no the existence of Universe,Space,Galaxy,Sun, Moon, Stars and the Planets etc. In other word God created all things because of EARTH. :D

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=3260&p=67547&hilit ... #%20p67547" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; :reading:
Yeh I know. and the gentleman (jhonanciant) told you that you are full of sh..t, as we are telling you now.
johnancian wrote:It seems you can't comprehend my answer. Let me try to make it simpler.

1. The claim that Big Bang is explained in Koran is rubbish. Just a dream. It's a perversion of human comprehension. Religious people always behave like it. If its in sync with their believe, they say that science confirmed them. But if its not, well, anything could be told, even that the science is wrong.

2. Scientist in early 21st century confirmed that there is no "outer forces", that includes your Ala, initiated the Big Bang. So your Ala never exist, let alone did something.

3. Even if there is/are some "supernatural" forces out there, that doesn't mean your Ala is the true God. Maybe some advanced civilization out there, aliens, or even your Satan is the one guiding Mo. I strongly believe that the latter is the one.

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SAM
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

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Hombre wrote:If that's the case - why your Quran repeats the same story of Genesis & creation of the universe?
Really..The Jewish God needed light and darkness to create the heavens and the earth before He created the sun and the moon. And rest on the seventh day to play with His ball. :lol:
I guess you were conceived a different way - not knowing whom among the 4 wives is your biological mother. Or was conceived by te milk delivery man.
Don't forget the Jewish incest, to keep their genealogy. :*)
Yeh I know. and the gentleman (jhonanciant) told you that you are full of sh..t, as we are telling you now.
johnancian replied to Joseph, not me.

The Hebrew Bible has no knowledge and understanding of the Big Bang as it is written by their foolish Scribes. :lol:
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Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

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And we get the usual sinking of standards by SAM.... we are talking about the creation account of the QURAN , Sam, and not of the bible.

The bible makes no claim that its creation account is a historical one. (In fact it is a piece of poetry) There are a great many profound insights found in that poem, but of course it does not reflect the actual historical sequence of events. That is something science tries to answer. The bible speaks of man and his place in the world, of the origin and nature of sin, of the PURPOSE of the universe in the eyes of the author.

By contrast, the Qur'an presents a garbled version of the same account as if it was sequence of historical events, and even tries to sell it as as a "clear proof" why people should follow Mohammed.

If you want to read some of wisdom of the ancients read the biblical account, if you want factual explanations, read some science, but if you are satisfied with Mohammed's Jack and Gill version, written purely for propaganda purposes, have a look at the Qur'an.
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Hombre
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

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SAM
manfred has already articulated the difference between the Bible & your Quran.

Just do yourself a favor. Bibles successively were compiled over 2300 years by hundreds learned people, each describing events of the day and the relationship between man / woman & God with clear instructions how to live the proper way according to the Deen of Judea & Christianity. The central manuscript to both religions is the famous 10 commandments.

Quran was compiled over 23 year by only one man. A mere spit in human history. Muhammad simply repeated - rather poorly those biblical stories heard from Jews & Christians 25 years earlier in his life. That explains the reason all those stories written in the Quran are jumble mumble with no head or tails, simply he didn't remember them in details as he heard them. No being able to contradict this fact - Muslim resort to a well known tool - DENY, DISCARD or even try to destroy the competitions (HB & NT)

As the 3rd religion in line - Neither you - nor any Muslim is in any position to judge or even comment about the validity or authenticity of both - HB & NT.

It's time for you, mughal & other Muslims to accept the fact that Quran is made 70% from Judea. 20% from Christianity, 5% from Zoroastrian religion & 5% pagan practices to which the Qa'aba was one of the 360 pagan gods.
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

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Hombre wrote:SAM

Just do yourself a favor. Bibles successively were compiled over 2300 years by hundreds learned people, each describing events of the day and the relationship between man / woman & God with clear instructions how to live the proper way according to the Deen of Judea & Christianity. The central manuscript to both religions is the famous 10 commandments.

Quran was compiled over 23 year by only one man. A mere spit in human history. Muhammad simply repeated - rather poorly those biblical stories heard from Jews & Christians 25 years earlier in his life. That explains the reason all those stories written in the Quran are jumble mumble with no head or tails, simply he didn't remember them in details as he heard them. No being able to contradict this fact - Muslim resort to a well known tool - DENY, DISCARD or even try to destroy the competitions (HB & NT)

As the 3rd religion in line - Neither you - nor any Muslim is in any position to judge or even comment about the validity or authenticity of both - HB & NT.

It's time for you, mughal & other Muslims to accept the fact that Quran is made 70% from Judea. 20% from Christianity, 5% from Zoroastrian religion & 5% pagan practices to which the Qa'aba was one of the 360 pagan gods.
This is not because the Hebrew Bible is older than the Quran, meaning more true than the Quran. The problem of abstraction of the Hebrew Bible is not a new issue, it is a deeply rooted problem that has been around for thousands of years. They are aware of the misunderstandings, falsities and discrepancies that resulted from their own scribes before the advent of Islam.

Remember Jeremiah complained about the corrupted Hebrew Bible. :whistling:

And your Genesis doesn't supporting evidence the Big Bang theory.
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Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

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SAM wrote:This is not because the Hebrew Bible is older than the Quran, meaning more true than the Quran. The problem of abstraction of the Hebrew Bible is not a new issue, it is a deeply rooted problem that has been around for thousands of years. They are aware of the misunderstandings, falsities and discrepancies that resulted from their own scribes before the advent of Islam.

Remember Jeremiah complained about the corrupted Hebrew Bible. :whistling:

And your Genesis doesn't supporting evidence the Big Bang theory.
Use your bloody head will you.? You are not a dummy nor an irrational one. The HB is made of almost 990,000 words compiled over thousands of years. Your Quran is mere 77,000+ words - less than 1/10 of that in HB?

Not only that, The Talmud (Jewish oral history) is an 18 volume compendium for All Jewish laws for Jew to follow in all walks of life, as well as thorough interpretation of each sentence written in the Hebrew Bible.
Compare that to your Hadith compiled over mere 100 pages or so? (Please correct me if I am wrong)

Beyond Gabriel, the Quran is filled with characters from the Hebrew Bible: Adam, Noah, Abraham, Lot, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David and Goliath, Jonah, Mary, and John the Baptist all appear, among others — including Jesus. Where the hell did they come from? from both HB & NT. How can you call your book "an original book conveyed by god" when same exact stories have been told some 2000 & 600 years earlier?

Finally. our core problem with you & other Muslims is that WE (Jews & Christians) TOOK THE TIME AND COURTESY & HAVE READ YOUR HOLLY BOOK - YOU DID NOT READ OUR RESPECTIVE HOLY BOOKS. You rely on only one source for your info and that's not enough. Get a copy of the HB and start your journey to salvation and truth. Read it and see the original stories as told by Allah Sr. :wink: Your Quran was conveyed by Allah Jr. :cry: that is not the same
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

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Hombre wrote:Use your bloody head will you.? You are not a dummy nor an irrational one. The HB is made of almost 990,000 words compiled over thousands of years. Your Quran is mere 77,000+ words - less than 1/10 of that in HB?
Let me do math for you. 990,000 - 77,000 = 913,000.

Jeremiah has told the truth that 913,000 words of HB, actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely, corrupted, lies, deception, falsehood etc.
Not only that, The Talmud (Jewish oral history) is an 18 volume compendium for All Jewish laws for Jew to follow in all walks of life, as well as thorough interpretation of each sentence written in the Hebrew Bible.
Compare that to your Hadith compiled over mere 100 pages or so? (Please correct me if I am wrong)
The Talmud is not one of the four sacred books (Torah, Psalms, Injil and Quran) that Muslims are obliged to know.

Once again Jeremiah has said the truth that the Talmud is one of the books of deception, falsehood, lies by the scribes.
Beyond Gabriel, the Quran is filled with characters from the Hebrew Bible: Adam, Noah, Abraham, Lot, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David and Goliath, Jonah, Mary, and John the Baptist all appear, among others — including Jesus. Where the hell did they come from? from both HB & NT. How can you call your book "an original book conveyed by god" when same exact stories have been told some 2000 & 600 years earlier?
The character and life of all the prophets in the Quran are not exactly the same as the stories in HB and NT.

The People of the Book in Muhammad's time. They didn't say that characters and lives of all the prophets in the Quran are wrong compared to their corrupted HB/NT.
Finally. our core problem with you & other Muslims is that WE (Jews & Christians) TOOK THE TIME AND COURTESY & HAVE READ YOUR HOLLY BOOK - YOU DID NOT READ OUR RESPECTIVE HOLY BOOKS. You rely on only one source for your info and that's not enough. Get a copy of the HB and start your journey to salvation and truth. Read it and see the original stories as told by Allah Sr. :wink: Your Quran was conveyed by Allah Jr. :cry: that is not the same
Jeremiah has warned Muslims not to trust the corrupted HB and NT. :lol:
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

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SAM wrote:Once again Jeremiah has said the truth that the Talmud is one of the books of deception, falsehood, lies by the scribes.
(yah-ahmar, yah-majnun) Jeremiah had lived before 650 BCE. The Talmud was compiled between 200 - 500 CE . Some 1100 years after his death.
At least get your facts straight before you star clicking nonsense.
The character and life of all the prophets in the Quran are not exactly the same as the stories in HB and NT.

The People of the Book in Muhammad's time. They didn't say that characters and lives of all the prophets in the Quran are wrong compared to their corrupted HB/NT.
If they are not the same - than who were they. Since Muslims have no solid historical & theological foundations to stand on - they steal, copy, pillage or plagiarize other people stories - adapting them as their own. You may convince your house pets - not me or other non-Muslims who are well versed with your Quran.
Jeremiah has warned Muslims not to trust the corrupted HB and NT. :lol:
in 650 BCE there was not a single Muslim to speak for. You are absolutely wrong. when Jeremiah warned against false prophets - he was referring to people like Muhammad.
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

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Hombre wrote:(yah-ahmar, yah-majnun) Jeremiah had lived before 650 BCE. The Talmud was compiled between 200 - 500 CE . Some 1100 years after his death. At least get your facts straight before you star clicking nonsense.
No matter what year he was born or died, his words "the lying pen of scribes has produced falsehood" were applied to all the corrupted Jewish/Christian scriptures.
If they are not the same - than who were they. Since Muslims have no solid historical & theological foundations to stand on - they steal, copy, pillage or plagiarize other people stories - adapting them as their own. You may convince your house pets - not me or other non-Muslims who are well versed with your Quran.
in 650 BCE there was not a single Muslim to speak for. You are absolutely wrong. when Jeremiah warned against false prophets - he was referring to people like Muhammad.
All Popes are False Prophets. :D
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

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As far as I know, no Pope has ever called himself "a Prophet" - nor claimed to be one. They never claimed they heard God talking to them. In any case I am not an expert on Popes. perhaps manford, or frankie will answer you better then I could

All I have read on Muhammad and his behaviour - modern psychology explains it as classic case of schizophrenia, narcissism and the fact occasionally he was falling - all indicate epilepsy. Even Jews of Khaybar who rejected his claim as their prophet - they also called him the false prophet which Prophet Jeremiah had warned them some 1200 years earlier to reject.

You or any Muslim yet prove with any shred of evidence or even clear hint the existence of Islam's or Muhammad before 620 ACE.

SAM it is time for you to wake up to reality and accept historical evens & realize that the entire religious of Islam & Muhammad is a classic case of cult. Otherwise - ask yourself habibi why even after 1400 years after his death, why Muslim as so afraid to utter even the slightest hint of criticism of him & some of his heinous acts.

It is funny. Muhammad had adapted all those Jewish practices - except the 10 Commandments for good reason. Because even then Muhammad himself knew to have violated more then one or more commandments.
Thou shall not kill
Thou Shall not steal nor loot.
Thou shall not covet another man's wife.

Finally. After 10 years here on this blog - we have yet see you convincing any non-Muslim to leave his / her religion and accept Islam. maybe its time for you to start rethinking Islam and convert to Christianity, or Hindu religion.
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

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As far as I know, no Pope has ever called himself "a Prophet" - nor claimed to be one.
Jesus had a number of followers, and 12 of them were very close to him, following him wherever he went. One of then was called Simon, a fisherman from Galilee.

Jesus told him that he would be the leader of them "you are the rock upon which I build my church" (Peter =Petros= rock)
Later this man was the leader of the Christians in Rome, where he was crucified by the Romans.

His successors, as leader of the Christians in Rome, were later called "Pope" (father) and to Catholics these successors are the final arbiters to questions of religion. The popes also appoint all Catholic bishops. Other Christians see the pope either as merely a bishop like any other or dispute that he has any authority at all.

So he not a "prophet", to any Christian, but meant to be a preserver of tradition, a teacher of the original faith, and a settler of disputes. But not all Christians see him as that. There have been some truly inspiring popes, and also some really wicked ones....
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

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Hombre wrote:As far as I know, no Pope has ever called himself "a Prophet" - nor claimed to be one. They never claimed they heard God talking to them. In any case I am not an expert on Popes. perhaps manford, or frankie will answer you better then I could
You are sleeping .. many Christians have accused Pope Francis of being one of those false prophets.
All I have read on Muhammad and his behaviour - modern psychology explains it as classic case of schizophrenia, narcissism and the fact occasionally he was falling - all indicate epilepsy. Even Jews of Khaybar who rejected his claim as their prophet - they also called him the false prophet which Prophet Jeremiah had warned them some 1200 years earlier to reject.
:lotpot: Any evidence that Muhammad wrote the Quran with a lying pen like Jewish scribes.
You or any Muslim yet prove with any shred of evidence or even clear hint the existence of Islam's or Muhammad before 620 ACE.

SAM it is time for you to wake up to reality and accept historical evens & realize that the entire religious of Islam & Muhammad is a classic case of cult. Otherwise - ask yourself habibi why even after 1400 years after his death, why Muslim as so afraid to utter even the slightest hint of criticism of him & some of his heinous acts.

It is funny. Muhammad had adapted all those Jewish practices - except the 10 Commandments for good reason. Because even then Muhammad himself knew to have violated more then one or more commandments.
Thou shall not kill
Thou Shall not steal nor loot.
Thou shall not covet another man's wife.
These verses apply to Jews who still kill Palestinians today. Looting and steal the land of the Canaanites.
Finally. After 10 years here on this blog - we have yet see you convincing any non-Muslim to leave his / her religion and accept Islam. maybe its time for you to start rethinking Islam and convert to Christianity, or Hindu religion.
I am here to bashing and smacking the heads of kafirs :bash: who did not know the darkness, sadism, crime, murderer, corruption of their religion and wanted to give advice to Muslims about Islam.
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

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So you are not here to discuss any issues raised, but instead talk nonsense about other religions. Got it. But why are repeating the same nonsense over and over when it already has been exposed as such?

And nobody want to "give advice about Islam" here, instead people point out issues with it and discuss them. And like any Muslim, you cannot address them, so instead you are spouting nonsense about other religions as a diversion...

This topic is about a specific issue... the claim of the creation story found in the Qur'an being factual historically, and about being told by a divine being.

All you reveal with your base tactics is your shame about being unable to discuss that. So you write any old rubbish instead.
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

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manfred wrote:
As far as I know, no Pope has ever called himself "a Prophet" - nor claimed to be one.
Jesus had a number of followers, and 12 of them were very close to him, following him wherever he went. One of then was called Simon, a fisherman from Galilee.

Jesus told him that he would be the leader of them "you are the rock upon which I build my church" (Peter =Petros= rock)
Later this man was the leader of the Christians in Rome, where he was crucified by the Romans.

His successors, as leader of the Christians in Rome, were later called "Pope" (father) and to Catholics these successors are the final arbiters to questions of religion. The popes also appoint all Catholic bishops. Other Christians see the pope either as merely a bishop like any other or dispute that he has any authority at all.

So he not a "prophet", to any Christian, but meant to be a preserver of tradition, a teacher of the original faith, and a settler of disputes. But not all Christians see him as that. There have been some truly inspiring popes, and also some really wicked ones....
There is a term attached to describe some of the power wielded by Popes with regards to religious matters."Infallibility".According to the book about Nostradamus authored by one Stephen Paulus which I have read in 1999,Popes can claim infallibility in certain subjects but not in all matters.
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

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Yes, that is true in a way. But "infallibility" does not mean he cannot get things wrong. It really is the same as saying he is the "final arbiter". In a question for Christian teaching only, if there is a dispute, his judgement, if formally pronounced, settles it. However, the pope's judgement must also be in accordance to existing teaching and tradition. I.e. he may not "innovate", like a "prophet".....

In reality this is almost never used, only once in 2000 years. In reality popes generally settle disputes by calling "councils", i.e. asking all the bishops to come together and discuss it.

Of course not all Christians accept this papal privilege.
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by Fernando »

As usual where SAM is involved, this discussion has drifted off topic.
I would like to ask SAM something related to Creation.
SAM, if Allah separate the Heavens from the Earth
1) What were they like before they were separated: like layers glued together or a mass of foam-like material?
2) Once the Heavens were separated from the Earth, how are they separated from each other: by barricades, gates, voids, or what? And how is it that these separators are strong enough to stop all the universe - for that is what the Heavens surely are - collapsing into itself?
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by Hombre »

Fernando wrote:As usual where SAM is involved, this discussion has drifted off topic.
I would like to ask SAM something related to Creation.
SAM, if Allah separate the Heavens from the Earth
1) What were they like before they were separated: like layers glued together or a mass of foam-like material?
2) Once the Heavens were separated from the Earth, how are they separated from each other: by barricades, gates, voids, or what? And how is it that these separators are strong enough to stop all the universe - for that is what the Heavens surely are - collapsing into itself?
The phenomenon Muhamad saw is what we is called "Fata Morgana". That where earth & sky "kiss" :lotpot:

This is what our SAM sees every morning he wakes up.

Here:


And Here:
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Re: creation in the Qur'an

Post by SAM »

Hombre wrote:The phenomenon Muhamad saw is what we is called "Fata Morgana". That where earth & sky "kiss" :lotpot:

This is what our SAM sees every morning he wakes up.

Here:


And Here:
Stupid answer attempt, your HB has no answer. ..... try again, don't guessing. .. :lol:
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)
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