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Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:38 am
by Hombre
Mughal wrote:
antineoETC wrote:
Mughal wrote:I moved away from all that and have adopted a new understanding of things which I did not know when I was born. Now I understand islam as to what it actually is much better than ever before.


Fine. Could you explain how you understand the following quran passage?:

It is He who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the deen of truth to manifest it over all deens, although they who associate others with Allah dislike it.

What does the deen of Islam being "manifested" over (or prevailing/triumphing over) other deens entail as you see it?


Dear antineoETC, the verse is simply telling us life is a journey from the day we are born till the day we die so we must try our best to discover why we are here or who has brought us here and for what within our given time limit. .
NO MUGHAL this is just bunch of nonsense you are concocting here. It clearly says Anything Muhammad had said - presumably sent from Allah, overrides & superior to anything "Other deens" (non-Muslims) tenets or edicts believe or stand for.

Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:14 am
by antineoETC
Do you follow the Quran alone, Mughal, and reject the entirety of the hadith? Or do you accept some hadith that fit with your philosophy?

Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:36 pm
by Mughal
antineoETC wrote:Do you follow the Quran alone, Mughal, and reject the entirety of the hadith? Or do you accept some hadith that fit with your philosophy?


Dear antineoETC, it is vitally important for us to accept all sources of information that are available to us to begin with, which includes your words as well as mine.

It is then important to set up a criterion which works in order to distinguish between truth and falsehood or what is right and what is wrong.

It is also vitally important to learn to make proper sense of information and to be able organise information so that it makes sense. That is because information in its random form is very difficult if not impossible to make sense of.

Once we have an over all context of any information that works due to being sensible then we can go into its detail to see what fits within and what does not. Our objective should be to try to fit in as much information as possible in the main framework of information so that any rejection is kept at a minimum.

I have been explaining things in various threads on this forum so one can see it there as well eg see following links.

what does SATAN look like
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18471
magic
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18449
mughal the infedel
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=15505
the post modern quran you never knew
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=18447
has humanity understood the quran properly?
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=15372
the year of the elephant
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=18457
is Allah the worst communicator ever?
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=16247
Is quran incoherent? Surah 2 the longest surah in the quran
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=15862
top 5 errors in quran
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=12725&start=400

Coming to your question, I am not a quran only muslim but I accept quran, hadis, qayaas and ijma principle just like any other muslim.

The difference arises between two understandings of islam ie a)as a deen and b)as a mazhab. Deen means a governing system for a state and mazhab mean a system of worship. I believe islam is a deen and not a mazhab. Deen of islam means a way of life from God for mankind to live by. The need for living according to this way of life arises due to the fact that God has created this world and he created it for his purpose.

Since God created this world for his purpose so only and only he could tell mankind how to live in it properly so that the purpose he created everything for could become fulfilled. Revelation of God in form of the quran explains for us all what was necessary for us to know which we ourselves could never find out on our own.

Since to live in this world properly is not easy so none of us human being could advice any of us how to do that because it needed a lot knowledge about a lot of things in this world which none of us can ever have. This is why to understand proper way of life is of vital importance for us if we want to have a great life in this world by working together as one people or a brotherhood of humanity under rule of law of one true God.

We have only and only one book from God in the word today and a lot of other books written by us people. This is why in deen of islam the quran occupies a special place. It is because all things in this world have their place value which is given to them by their context. A random number or letter means nothing until and unless it has a context.

Although the quran is the main book of deen of islam due to being word of God but books written by people are also of vital importance in their own way. This is why hadith books are also important and so are books of fiqh or history or biographies of people. All these books help us understand things properly. This is why I do not reject any book but yes, I am selective when it comes to using information from books written by people. The reason is human beings are human beings and not Gods. They make errors or mistakes and sometimes even deliberate false statements. However whatever proves true according to a properly working criterion is true and whatever proves false is false unless something does not fit what is known already which needs to be examined further till a time when it makes sense.

If we accept the quran as a program and guidelines for a constitution and its laws for organising humanity into a proper human community and regulating it properly then rest of books written by people can be used as records of precedents where they fit the quranic context and real world realities.

This is how I look at the quran and rest of books which talk about things related to deen of islam. From this one can clearly see deen of islam is not a personality cult but a rule of law for all human beings to live by in this world properly. Whichever people will live by this rule of law properly will be most successful people in this world and will be rewarded for that in hereafter as well.

Not only that the closer a people will live by rule of law of God they will be the top people and the farthest they will live from this rule of law the worst will be their lives in this world and hereafter will not be any good for them either. This is how the quran explains itself as I understand it.

Hope this helps you understand my position regarding the quran and deen of islam so far. I am still working on the quran so my exploration of the quran continues till I reach my final conclusion about it. I am hoping to discover yet great things from within the quran but we will have to wait and see.

Regards and all the best.

Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:03 pm
by sum
Hello antineoETC

Mughal`s quote -
"muhammad lived the way God told him according to the quran and the quran is a foundational primary source of the islamic way of life."

According to Mughal it appears that Muhamad`s words and deeds only confirm the literal interpretation of the Koran.

This poses another question for Mughal. Does Mughal accept the sunna of Muhammad especially the ahadith that relate the inequality and atrocities done by Muhammad which would be in accord with the guidance of the Koran? If Muhammad lived by the guidance in the Koran then Muhammad`s words and deeds confirm what we read in a literal sense in the Koran. Mughal must remember that Allah said, in the Koran, that none can change his words.

sum

Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:12 pm
by sum
Hello Mughal

Your long reply to my question did not answer the question. Once again I will ask you "What does chapter 9 in the Koran say should happen to me if I reject Allah and Muhammad because I do not believe Allah exists or that Muhammad was a prophet, therefore Islam is false?"

sum

Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:57 am
by antineoETC
Mughal wrote:Deen means a governing system for a state and mazhab mean a system of worship. I believe islam is a deen and not a mazhab. Deen of islam means a way of life from God for mankind to live by. The need for living according to this way of life arises due to the fact that God has created this world and he created it for his purpose.


You have clearly done a complete volte face since you posted THIS

When did this "Road to Damascus" event occur?

So do you believe in the ongoing applicability of quran verse 24.2?:

The woman and the man guilty of illegal sexual intercourse, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day.

It is hard to see how this can be applied in any way other than as it reads? Or do you subscribe to a more metaphorical interpretation of "pitilessly flog"?

Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:22 am
by sum
Hello Mughal

Your quote -
The prophet was sent as a law giver by god to establish his law on earth even if by fighting because he was sent with clear proofs and those who deliberately denied his authority had no right to live after that as a punishment for them from allah by the hand of his messenger.

I keep asking you what the Koran - chapter 9 - says should happen to me as I am described in your quote above. What should happen to me?

sum

Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:08 am
by antineoETC
mughal wrote:I moved away from all that and have adopted a new understanding of things which I did not know when I was born. Now I understand islam as to what it actually is much better than ever before.


It strikes me that Mughal's "new understanding" of Islam derived from his own detailed study of Islamic texts differs in no way that matters from the "old understanding" as formulated centuries ago by four main orthodox sunni sharia schools.

Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:36 pm
by Nosuperstition
sum wrote:Hello Mughal

Your quote -
The prophet was sent as a law giver by god to establish his law on earth even if by fighting because he was sent with clear proofs and those who deliberately denied his authority had no right to live after that as a punishment for them from allah by the hand of his messenger.

I keep asking you what the Koran - chapter 9 - says should happen to me as I am described in your quote above. What should happen to me?

sum


Oh my God, I remember having read vaguely in an English newspaper that just like Hindus believed in Vasudaiva Kutumbakam(the whole world is one family),Lokassamasta sukhino bhavantu(let the whole world be happy),sarve jana sukhino bhavantu(let everyone be happy),that there existed in the Quran , a phrase which said that the whole world is one family.So did they fabricate that part?Or does it really exist?

Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:49 pm
by manfred
No there isn't. The Qur'an teaches that MUSLIMS are the "best of people" and the rest the "worst of animals". Non-Muslims are not even humans, much less "family".

A bit like you.... there are the nice humans who have darkish skin and the evil monsters you call "white"....

Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:31 pm
by sum
Hello Mughal

I hope that you return to this thread.

Another question that you never answered -

Muhammad ordered some people to be stoned to death for illegal sexual intercourse. This punishment is not in the Koran. Do you admit that Muhammad ignored the Koranic punishment for this Islamic crime? Strangely, Allah did not criticise Muhammad. Was it acceptable for Muhammad to ignore the Koran and do as he pleased?

sum

Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:29 pm
by Fernando
sum wrote:Hello Mughal

I hope that you return to this thread.

Another question that you never answered -

Muhammad ordered some people to be stoned to death for illegal sexual intercourse. This punishment is not in the Koran. Do you admit that Muhammad ignored the Koranic punishment for this Islamic crime? Strangely, Allah did not criticise Muhammad. Was it acceptable for Muhammad to ignore the Koran and do as he pleased?

sum
That was before the goat ate that page! (Immutable, but evidently not by goats :) )

Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:29 am
by Mughal

Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:43 pm
by sum
Hello Mughal

I watched for about five minutes and was not impressed at all and so switched off.

It talked about the destruction of communities that did not live the proper way. How were they destroyed? It was muslim hordes who destroyed them and took their women as sex slaves and the rest, including possessions, as "booty". Is this the deen of Islam?

You did not answer my question when I asked if Muhammad disobeyed Allah when he ordered a women to be stoned to death for illegal sexual intercourse when that punishment is not in the Koran. Will you please answer my question?

There is another question that you ignored. Why do you prefer the words and deeds of Muhammad to those of Jesus?

sum

Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:25 pm
by Mughal
sum wrote:Hello Mughal

I watched for about five minutes and was not impressed at all and so switched off.

It talked about the destruction of communities that did not live the proper way. How were they destroyed? It was muslim hordes who destroyed them and took their women as sex slaves and the rest, including possessions, as "booty". Is this the deen of Islam?

You did not answer my question when I asked if Muhammad disobeyed Allah when he ordered a women to be stoned to death for illegal sexual intercourse when that punishment is not in the Koran. Will you please answer my question?

There is another question that you ignored. Why do you prefer the words and deeds of Muhammad to those of Jesus?

sum


Dear sum, you keep putting the cart before the horse. I explained in detail for you that in deen of islam the quran is the main thing and people are secondary. You cannot use people to disprove the quran or deen of islam. Before anything else we need to understand the quran properly. Once we have made the proper sense of the quranic text thereafter we can investigate whether whatever some people told about others is true or false or right or wrong.

It is because before anyone could pronounce a judgement about anyone who claims to be a muslim there has to be a proper criterion to judge him by and that criterion in deen of islam is the quran. This is why proper understanding of the quran is absolutely necessary to declare anything about anyone else.

You are accusing muhammad about all sorts of things but forgetting that criterion. You are also putting aside my explanations about what was going on before God started sending his revelations for mankind through his human messengers. At least try and understand things from my point of view rather than dishing out all the nonsense you have learned from people who talk and write nonsense about the quran and deen of islam or messengers of God regardless the authors of falsehood claim to be muslims or nonmuslims. This means you are being critical of things just for sake of it.

I am not saying you should not be critical of things but at least see who you are discussing things with and what is his point of view.

regards and all the best.

Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:18 pm
by sum
Hello Mughal

What you are saying is that all the scholars from the time of Muhammad are wrong in their interpretation of the Koran and life at the time of Muhammad that was to be emulated by society.

You still refuse to give a clear answer to a clear question. It is a ploy of yours to hide behind telling us that we need to understand the Koran in the proper way. We see Islam and its deen in practice every day everywhere in the world. You appear to be out of step with these practitioners of true Islam. Are you now a hypocrite?

Now please tell us whether Muhammad defied Allah when he ordered a woman to be stoned for illegal sexual intercourse when the Koran says flogging is the punishment. Did Muhammad go against the Koran?

sum