Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

Prove Islam is from God, why it is the 'One True Religion'.
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Hombre
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Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

Post by Hombre »

Mughal wrote:
antineoETC wrote:
Mughal wrote:I moved away from all that and have adopted a new understanding of things which I did not know when I was born. Now I understand islam as to what it actually is much better than ever before.
Fine. Could you explain how you understand the following quran passage?:

It is He who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the deen of truth to manifest it over all deens, although they who associate others with Allah dislike it.

What does the deen of Islam being "manifested" over (or prevailing/triumphing over) other deens entail as you see it?
Dear antineoETC, the verse is simply telling us life is a journey from the day we are born till the day we die so we must try our best to discover why we are here or who has brought us here and for what within our given time limit. .
NO MUGHAL this is just bunch of nonsense you are concocting here. It clearly says Anything Muhammad had said - presumably sent from Allah, overrides & superior to anything "Other deens" (non-Muslims) tenets or edicts believe or stand for.

antineoETC
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Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

Post by antineoETC »

Do you follow the Quran alone, Mughal, and reject the entirety of the hadith? Or do you accept some hadith that fit with your philosophy?
It is in the nature of wasp nests that some of their inhabitants are bound to sting someone. The closer you are to are to a wasp nest the more likely you are to get stung, sometimes fatally. Who would encourage wasps to establish a nest in their house?

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Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

Post by Mughal »

antineoETC wrote:Do you follow the Quran alone, Mughal, and reject the entirety of the hadith? Or do you accept some hadith that fit with your philosophy?
Dear antineoETC, it is vitally important for us to accept all sources of information that are available to us to begin with, which includes your words as well as mine.

It is then important to set up a criterion which works in order to distinguish between truth and falsehood or what is right and what is wrong.

It is also vitally important to learn to make proper sense of information and to be able organise information so that it makes sense. That is because information in its random form is very difficult if not impossible to make sense of.

Once we have an over all context of any information that works due to being sensible then we can go into its detail to see what fits within and what does not. Our objective should be to try to fit in as much information as possible in the main framework of information so that any rejection is kept at a minimum.

I have been explaining things in various threads on this forum so one can see it there as well eg see following links.

what does SATAN look like
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18471" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
magic
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18449" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
mughal the infedel
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=15505" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
the post modern quran you never knew
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=18447" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
has humanity understood the quran properly?
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=15372" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
the year of the elephant
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=18457" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
is Allah the worst communicator ever?
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=16247" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Is quran incoherent? Surah 2 the longest surah in the quran
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=15862" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
top 5 errors in quran
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=12725&start=400" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Coming to your question, I am not a quran only muslim but I accept quran, hadis, qayaas and ijma principle just like any other muslim.

The difference arises between two understandings of islam ie a)as a deen and b)as a mazhab. Deen means a governing system for a state and mazhab mean a system of worship. I believe islam is a deen and not a mazhab. Deen of islam means a way of life from God for mankind to live by. The need for living according to this way of life arises due to the fact that God has created this world and he created it for his purpose.

Since God created this world for his purpose so only and only he could tell mankind how to live in it properly so that the purpose he created everything for could become fulfilled. Revelation of God in form of the quran explains for us all what was necessary for us to know which we ourselves could never find out on our own.

Since to live in this world properly is not easy so none of us human being could advice any of us how to do that because it needed a lot knowledge about a lot of things in this world which none of us can ever have. This is why to understand proper way of life is of vital importance for us if we want to have a great life in this world by working together as one people or a brotherhood of humanity under rule of law of one true God.

We have only and only one book from God in the word today and a lot of other books written by us people. This is why in deen of islam the quran occupies a special place. It is because all things in this world have their place value which is given to them by their context. A random number or letter means nothing until and unless it has a context.

Although the quran is the main book of deen of islam due to being word of God but books written by people are also of vital importance in their own way. This is why hadith books are also important and so are books of fiqh or history or biographies of people. All these books help us understand things properly. This is why I do not reject any book but yes, I am selective when it comes to using information from books written by people. The reason is human beings are human beings and not Gods. They make errors or mistakes and sometimes even deliberate false statements. However whatever proves true according to a properly working criterion is true and whatever proves false is false unless something does not fit what is known already which needs to be examined further till a time when it makes sense.

If we accept the quran as a program and guidelines for a constitution and its laws for organising humanity into a proper human community and regulating it properly then rest of books written by people can be used as records of precedents where they fit the quranic context and real world realities.

This is how I look at the quran and rest of books which talk about things related to deen of islam. From this one can clearly see deen of islam is not a personality cult but a rule of law for all human beings to live by in this world properly. Whichever people will live by this rule of law properly will be most successful people in this world and will be rewarded for that in hereafter as well.

Not only that the closer a people will live by rule of law of God they will be the top people and the farthest they will live from this rule of law the worst will be their lives in this world and hereafter will not be any good for them either. This is how the quran explains itself as I understand it.

Hope this helps you understand my position regarding the quran and deen of islam so far. I am still working on the quran so my exploration of the quran continues till I reach my final conclusion about it. I am hoping to discover yet great things from within the quran but we will have to wait and see.

Regards and all the best.

sum
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Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

Post by sum »

Hello antineoETC

Mughal`s quote -
"muhammad lived the way God told him according to the quran and the quran is a foundational primary source of the islamic way of life."

According to Mughal it appears that Muhamad`s words and deeds only confirm the literal interpretation of the Koran.

This poses another question for Mughal. Does Mughal accept the sunna of Muhammad especially the ahadith that relate the inequality and atrocities done by Muhammad which would be in accord with the guidance of the Koran? If Muhammad lived by the guidance in the Koran then Muhammad`s words and deeds confirm what we read in a literal sense in the Koran. Mughal must remember that Allah said, in the Koran, that none can change his words.

sum

sum
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Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

Post by sum »

Hello Mughal

Your long reply to my question did not answer the question. Once again I will ask you "What does chapter 9 in the Koran say should happen to me if I reject Allah and Muhammad because I do not believe Allah exists or that Muhammad was a prophet, therefore Islam is false?"

sum

antineoETC
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Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

Post by antineoETC »

Mughal wrote:Deen means a governing system for a state and mazhab mean a system of worship. I believe islam is a deen and not a mazhab. Deen of islam means a way of life from God for mankind to live by. The need for living according to this way of life arises due to the fact that God has created this world and he created it for his purpose.
You have clearly done a complete volte face since you posted THIS

When did this "Road to Damascus" event occur?

So do you believe in the ongoing applicability of quran verse 24.2?:

The woman and the man guilty of illegal sexual intercourse, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day.

It is hard to see how this can be applied in any way other than as it reads? Or do you subscribe to a more metaphorical interpretation of "pitilessly flog"?
It is in the nature of wasp nests that some of their inhabitants are bound to sting someone. The closer you are to are to a wasp nest the more likely you are to get stung, sometimes fatally. Who would encourage wasps to establish a nest in their house?

sum
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Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

Post by sum »

Hello Mughal

Your quote -
The prophet was sent as a law giver by god to establish his law on earth even if by fighting because he was sent with clear proofs and those who deliberately denied his authority had no right to live after that as a punishment for them from allah by the hand of his messenger.

I keep asking you what the Koran - chapter 9 - says should happen to me as I am described in your quote above. What should happen to me?

sum

antineoETC
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Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

Post by antineoETC »

mughal wrote:I moved away from all that and have adopted a new understanding of things which I did not know when I was born. Now I understand islam as to what it actually is much better than ever before.
It strikes me that Mughal's "new understanding" of Islam derived from his own detailed study of Islamic texts differs in no way that matters from the "old understanding" as formulated centuries ago by four main orthodox sunni sharia schools.
It is in the nature of wasp nests that some of their inhabitants are bound to sting someone. The closer you are to are to a wasp nest the more likely you are to get stung, sometimes fatally. Who would encourage wasps to establish a nest in their house?

Nosuperstition
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Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

Post by Nosuperstition »

sum wrote:Hello Mughal

Your quote -
The prophet was sent as a law giver by god to establish his law on earth even if by fighting because he was sent with clear proofs and those who deliberately denied his authority had no right to live after that as a punishment for them from allah by the hand of his messenger.

I keep asking you what the Koran - chapter 9 - says should happen to me as I am described in your quote above. What should happen to me?

sum
Oh my God, I remember having read vaguely in an English newspaper that just like Hindus believed in Vasudaiva Kutumbakam(the whole world is one family),Lokassamasta sukhino bhavantu(let the whole world be happy),sarve jana sukhino bhavantu(let everyone be happy),that there existed in the Quran , a phrase which said that the whole world is one family.So did they fabricate that part?Or does it really exist?
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

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manfred
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Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

Post by manfred »

No there isn't. The Qur'an teaches that MUSLIMS are the "best of people" and the rest the "worst of animals". Non-Muslims are not even humans, much less "family".

A bit like you.... there are the nice humans who have darkish skin and the evil monsters you call "white"....
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

sum
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Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

Post by sum »

Hello Mughal

I hope that you return to this thread.

Another question that you never answered -

Muhammad ordered some people to be stoned to death for illegal sexual intercourse. This punishment is not in the Koran. Do you admit that Muhammad ignored the Koranic punishment for this Islamic crime? Strangely, Allah did not criticise Muhammad. Was it acceptable for Muhammad to ignore the Koran and do as he pleased?

sum

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Fernando
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Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

Post by Fernando »

sum wrote:Hello Mughal

I hope that you return to this thread.

Another question that you never answered -

Muhammad ordered some people to be stoned to death for illegal sexual intercourse. This punishment is not in the Koran. Do you admit that Muhammad ignored the Koranic punishment for this Islamic crime? Strangely, Allah did not criticise Muhammad. Was it acceptable for Muhammad to ignore the Koran and do as he pleased?

sum
That was before the goat ate that page! (Immutable, but evidently not by goats :) )
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

Mughal
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Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

Post by Mughal »



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruXOiDRgD5E" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

sum
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Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

Post by sum »

Hello Mughal

I watched for about five minutes and was not impressed at all and so switched off.

It talked about the destruction of communities that did not live the proper way. How were they destroyed? It was muslim hordes who destroyed them and took their women as sex slaves and the rest, including possessions, as "booty". Is this the deen of Islam?

You did not answer my question when I asked if Muhammad disobeyed Allah when he ordered a women to be stoned to death for illegal sexual intercourse when that punishment is not in the Koran. Will you please answer my question?

There is another question that you ignored. Why do you prefer the words and deeds of Muhammad to those of Jesus?

sum

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Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

Post by Mughal »

sum wrote:Hello Mughal

I watched for about five minutes and was not impressed at all and so switched off.

It talked about the destruction of communities that did not live the proper way. How were they destroyed? It was muslim hordes who destroyed them and took their women as sex slaves and the rest, including possessions, as "booty". Is this the deen of Islam?

You did not answer my question when I asked if Muhammad disobeyed Allah when he ordered a women to be stoned to death for illegal sexual intercourse when that punishment is not in the Koran. Will you please answer my question?

There is another question that you ignored. Why do you prefer the words and deeds of Muhammad to those of Jesus?

sum
Dear sum, you keep putting the cart before the horse. I explained in detail for you that in deen of islam the quran is the main thing and people are secondary. You cannot use people to disprove the quran or deen of islam. Before anything else we need to understand the quran properly. Once we have made the proper sense of the quranic text thereafter we can investigate whether whatever some people told about others is true or false or right or wrong.

It is because before anyone could pronounce a judgement about anyone who claims to be a muslim there has to be a proper criterion to judge him by and that criterion in deen of islam is the quran. This is why proper understanding of the quran is absolutely necessary to declare anything about anyone else.

You are accusing muhammad about all sorts of things but forgetting that criterion. You are also putting aside my explanations about what was going on before God started sending his revelations for mankind through his human messengers. At least try and understand things from my point of view rather than dishing out all the nonsense you have learned from people who talk and write nonsense about the quran and deen of islam or messengers of God regardless the authors of falsehood claim to be muslims or nonmuslims. This means you are being critical of things just for sake of it.

I am not saying you should not be critical of things but at least see who you are discussing things with and what is his point of view.

regards and all the best.

sum
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Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

Post by sum »

Hello Mughal

What you are saying is that all the scholars from the time of Muhammad are wrong in their interpretation of the Koran and life at the time of Muhammad that was to be emulated by society.

You still refuse to give a clear answer to a clear question. It is a ploy of yours to hide behind telling us that we need to understand the Koran in the proper way. We see Islam and its deen in practice every day everywhere in the world. You appear to be out of step with these practitioners of true Islam. Are you now a hypocrite?

Now please tell us whether Muhammad defied Allah when he ordered a woman to be stoned for illegal sexual intercourse when the Koran says flogging is the punishment. Did Muhammad go against the Koran?

sum

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Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

Post by Mughal »

sum wrote:Hello Mughal

What you are saying is that all the scholars from the time of Muhammad are wrong in their interpretation of the Koran and life at the time of Muhammad that was to be emulated by society.

You still refuse to give a clear answer to a clear question. It is a ploy of yours to hide behind telling us that we need to understand the Koran in the proper way. We see Islam and its deen in practice every day everywhere in the world. You appear to be out of step with these practitioners of true Islam. Are you now a hypocrite?

Now please tell us whether Muhammad defied Allah when he ordered a woman to be stoned for illegal sexual intercourse when the Koran says flogging is the punishment. Did Muhammad go against the Koran?

sum
Dear sum, we humans are individuals who can only come together on a basis that is solid. The quran is the only book that provides us with that foundation. Our task is to understand it properly and adopt it faithfully.

What happens if we we do not do that? The quran tells us very clearly, things are never going to be the way God wants them to be for us.

The main thing the quran explains is the way this universe is created and set up to work. This is why the quran tells us to try to understand the creation of God. Not only that it also tells us to understand revelation of God, why? It is because we cannot know reality of things about this universe without explanation of God.

The other thing the quran tells people is, to work together for this purpose as a single human family.

What happens if we do not do these things? W waste a lot of our time in trying to dominate each other by undermining each other by way of rivalry or negative competition. This wastes a lot of manpower as well as time and resources. What does that mean? It means humanity will suffer painfully for longer to get to the point to which it could get much, much earlier and with much, much less painful suffering.

Working for ensuring well being of one another is much better way to live by than living by way of working against one another for our petty personal gains.

May be current situation explains this very clearly. Look at all the people who claim to be humanist or humanitarian by their tongues but deep inside they crooks trying to make a kill at suffering of others, can we human beings get worse than that?

Be honest and tell me what would you like to do to such people right now who are still adamant in taking humanity the wrong way ie down the negative competition against each other.

Look at what happened to food shelves in the shops, they were emptied. This is the way human beings are unless they live and die for sake of God and well being of humanity. I have been explaining things for people for years to try and understand things to avoid these like situations. Does anyone listen? Hardly anyone.

Look at all the mullahs of all the religions how they blame God for it but I do not. I know all this is set up by God but to trigger it fully depended upon people themselves. Do you understand what it means? It means God has set up this universe and things in it to work in a particular way. If people understand things then they do not do wrong things and remain safe but if they do not understand things then they can do something which they should not and the result is a catastrophe for humanity as a part of as a whole.

Many people do not want to learn things and we are saying let them remain ignorant its their life. We forget that there is no such things as one's own life in this world. All life belongs to God and to look after what God has given us is important for all of us or we open ourselves to all sorts of problems due to stupidity of the ignorant among us. This is why we must enforce education and training upon all just like today when whole world is locked up. Had we been sensible all this need not to happen.

Currently almost all people try to stop each other from getting education and training in various ways, why? So that some remain ignorant and stupid so that they could be used by others abusively for their petty personal gains.

Tell me why there is shortage of everything today eg doctors, nurses, medication or equipment or food etc etc etc etc? It is because people fight against each other and try to get rid of the weaker than themselves instead of learning and teaching sense to each other and working together for the good of humanity as a whole.

People need to stop pulling wool over each other's eyes or rather eyes of the mind. Look at the west how people are blaming the east and vice versa. Psychological warfare is in full swing instead of learning from this situation and coming closure.

I know for a fact due to the quran that humanity is not going to end but it is going through a very hard time just now so people should reconsider their ideological position, which is very same under various labels. Almost all people are crooks as I see them save those who are God and humanity conscious. It is they due to whom human world can still be saved. I know it is an uphill struggle for people like me but we will get their in the end not matter how strong the opposition from from the corners. All because purpose for which God has created this world cannot be defeated by crooks or vulture or bloodsuckers or wolves in sheep clothing among humanity. Such enemies of God and humanity must be stopped by enforcement of education and training or rehabilitation to make this world safe for all human beings.

This is a good time for people to try and study the quran in depth as it demands to be studied. Failing to do so will bring even greater catastrophes than what we are seeing right now. Such things are only put in place to get out attention and not for destroying us but should we fail in paying attention to word of God then only a terrible destruction is going to be our end.

Therefore we must change the foundation upon which we base or set up our societies or according to which we do our politics or create our cultures and set up our economic system and deal with each other.

Worldwide problems demand worldwide solutions, partial solutions only pass on the buck which is not good for humanity and people must become aware of this. If people will not do right things willingly and voluntarily or with pleasure for ensuring well being of humanity then nature will take over the control from humanity and do its bit the way God has set up his universal systems and laws no matter how much we may detest it.

So people should worry about themselves as to why something bad happens to them every now and then instead of wasting their time in blaming God, his scriptures and messengers. People must use the scripture for the purpose it is revealed. They must not ignore it or talk rubbish about it without knowing much about it. God does respond to mankind in his own way and not at wishes or desires of people.

As I have explained in the other post for you in another thread, the bible does not qualify as word of God. It does not claim to be so nor the actual text of the bible proves it so. It is a human work. In it writers of the bible explain to us things about God and people. What humanity needs is guidance from God not a guidance in the name of God from people. God had to reveal his message to people in his own speech.

Even if for argument sake we accept jesus was God incarnate yet jesus did not give his disciples any such speech to write down and take it to the human world as such. This does not mean the bible does not contain any words of God at all but they are only there as some quotes and some of them may even be falsely attributed to God. This shows the bible is nothing like the quran. It is more like hadis books, which are also human works. The only word of God muslims have is the quran.

This is a very strong point which you are failing to appreciate to begin with. Likewise there are many other points people need to become aware of. In fact the other point I would like to make is, let us not compare things from books to each other instead let us work on books separately or individually as they are and see what they tell us and how much of it stands to reason if any at all. This is how I am going over the quranic text to see if it qualifies as a stand alone book, which a God revealed book must, no ifs and buts.

This is why I am working on the quran. The day my interpretation of the quran completes, I will be able to put my case before people in a much better way. Things that are in my head are of no value for anyone else till I put them on paper and let people know them or see them.

My time has been spent on trying to figure out how to understand the text of the quran properly. After working that out I am now working on a dictionary for the words used in the quran and their meanings. You can see from there that each word has very many meanings. It takes me time to write them all for each word. It could take dozens of pages just for meanings of one word.

After meanings I have to work out which ones fit the context of the quranic text if any, so it is not at all easy to do all this. I have no idea how people will react to my work once it is complete. It is because most people in the world are illiterate and hooked on make beliefs and useless practices so it is not easy at all to share ideas with other people for the time being.

For example, when I tell people who claim to be muslims that islam is not a religion but a deen, most of them would like to get their hands on me. this situation will continue till people educate themselves and learn sense to understand things. However I am not worried about that till I finish what I am doing. All that matters only after completion of my work. It is not going to be easy for me to deal with muslim like minded nonmuslims either. But all that when time comes. Till then I will carry on as far as I can.

Can anyone deny that the quran asks us to be one under one true God repeatedly? Can anyone deny the quran tells people not to remain or become divided repeatedly? None can.

Can anyone deny the quran repeatedly tells people to be just and fair as well as compassionate and kind to each other when dealing with each other? Can anyone deny the quran repeatedly tells people not to be unjust or unfair or cruel to each other when dealing with each other? None.

No one can because the quran is full of such verses.

Can anyone explain to me how can people be one under one true God if they keep inflicting harms and destructions upon each other for their petty personal gains? None can can. Can such people as inflict harms and destructions upon each other be muslims according to the teachings of the quran? No. Such people are called hypocrites by God not muslims because they say something with their mouths which they deny by their actions. They all live by way of life the quran condemns and rejects outright.

As I said already, people must try and understand the quranic message the way I have explained it. As for others let them say or do what they like about the quran or islam etc. They have their own baseless agendas for which they work the result of which will always be made obvious for them every now and again.

When it comes to discussing the quran, there is no point in going into detail first if we have not agreed upon the main picture yet.

You see, unless one has realised the connection between an overall ideology and its parts one is nowhere. This is why in any study of a system people first draw a block and then inside it show where its parts belong before they tackle parts involved in parts or bits.

In human biology class, students are given a whole human body picture and then in that picture they are shown bits inside a human eg heart, kidneys or lungs etc etc. Only after students become familiar with bits inside a human body, they are taken to bits individually and again they are given detailed explanations about each and every part. If we do not do things this way then things become difficult to make sense of.

Likewise in case of a way of life we need to become sensible enough to be able to become aware of relationship between main or overall ideology and its bits and parts which are human society and its set up eg its political set up, its cultural set up or its economic set up etc etc.

For a very long time now we have been talking about islam as a religion or as a deen. People are now beginning to realise islam could be deen and not necessarily a mazhab.

I do not talk about mazhab unless there arises some need to do so. Mazhab is part of original thought process of humanity ie when human beings came about, they were just like animals ie they did not know how to talk or read and write etc etc. They could hardly think beyond their daily existence. Over many many human generations they gathered a lot of information about many different things which helped them make progress. Finally they could speak, read and write and think beyond daily living. That is when they started thinking about God question and rule of law and all the rest that goes with that. This is how religions came about because different people came up with different ideas for living their lives better than before.

It is during this time God got in touch with people through his human messengers and sent human beings as his messages to help them towards peaceful and prosperous existence. This is start of deen or way of life advised by God for humanity to live by.

Since then there has been a constant struggle between people of religion and people of deen.

Think about what is religion about? Nothing more than siting and crying to God for help. Look at hindu, christian, muslim etc religious songs or what people say in their prayers. Does it make any sense at all to you or anyone else? No, not at all. It is because all these people are doing is assuming a most powerful being and putting their lists of demand before him, thinking he will grant them whatever they are asking for. These people have no sens ethat God must have created this world for his purpose and not for our purposes. Otherwise they had to look for message from God and they had to give it its due place in their society, which they did not. Instead they used it as another tool for exploiting and abusing each other.

On the other hand way of life advised by God himself is opposite or very different from all that people assume or guess all by themselves. This is why hardly any demands of religious people are ever met by God.

It is because God is not there to meet human demands but for the purpose he chose to create this world and all things in it including human beings. This is why God gave his list of demands as to what he wants from people in order for his purpose of their creation to become fulfilled.

Can you see the difference between list of demands by people which they want from God and the list of God which he demands of people?

None of the people here on this forum ever talked about it, why not? Because they did not think about it. Had these people studied the quran sincerely at least they will have realised the difference between religions and ways of life.

So it is better to study the quran independently on basis of rules not on basis of what muslim or nonmuslim people say about the quran. If we human beings are still not able to make sense of things to a reasonable degree then it is not fault of God but of human beings that we still fail badly when it comes to proper understanding of message of God.

The quran talks about a proper human community, how many of us understand what it means? The quran talks about a proper way of life for humanity, how many of us human beings even know what a way of life is or can be? The quran talks about purpose of creation, what do we know about that? What is or is supposed to be relationship between all these things? We are not bothered with thinking or working out.

These are the reasons I do not take any criticism of the quran by anyone seriously because it is not done properly by sensible people.

regards and all the best.

sum
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Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

Post by sum »

Hello Mughal

You still never answer a question. This is clearly your modus operandi.

I have two related questions for you -

Does your own understanding of the current Koran accept that it says that non-believers should convert to Islam, live as dhimmis but keep their own religion, or be fought and be killed if they don`t?

Does your own version of the Koran contain these three options as above?

sum

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Hombre
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Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

Post by Hombre »

Dr. sum
Reading Mughal's mind-numbing monolog - it is clear that he is totally brainwashed to an absolute conviction that the Quran indeed came directly from God himself. He is a very confused individual who lives in a dark world of delusion. Trough clever wording - he disguises his real agenda - convert us all to his way of thinking. Quran is the highest authority for mankind. Notwithstanding that, most of its stories on the creation were copied, plagiarized & derived from the HB & NT.

It doesn't matter how many times we provide him with undisputed proof - that the Quran was not - nor could contain god words of God, he still keeps posting the same nonsense. (who knows maybe he is a non-Muslim troll who enjoys the game of cat-n-mouse).

Here is one example from his post
The other thing the quran tells people is, to work together for this purpose as a single human family.
In fact, the same Quran commands Muslims to separate themselves from non-Muslims "mistrust & not befriend them". Yet mughal says otherwise.
It is obvious that he means live under Islamic rules. Otherwise, If that is the case - why not live in the families of Judea & Christianity, Hindu, or Buddha?

I for one stopped taking this guy too seriously. He is a good entertainer who enjoys his own jokes more then his audience does.

Mughal
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Re: Why won`t Mughal answer questions?

Post by Mughal »

sum wrote:Hello
sum wrote:Hello Mughal

You still never answer a question. This is clearly your modus operandi.

I have two related questions for you -

Does your own understanding of the current Koran accept that it says that non-believers should convert to Islam, live as dhimmis but keep their own religion, or be fought and be killed if they don`t?

Does your own version of the Koran contain these three options as above?

sum
Dear sum, please try and understand the main point I am making. The point is islam is a deen ie a governing system not religious mumbo jumbo. You cannot have two parallel rules of laws in the same country.

This universe is creation of God and belongs only and only to God and that is why in his kingdom must apply rule of law of God alone. Can you understand my this much simple explanation?

If the quran is not word of God then rule of law according to it means nothing at all but if it is then we humans have no choice. This is why we must study the quran properly to decide this issue. All the rest of arguments depend upon it.

If the quran is word of God and people must live by it then that is the end of all arguments against it.

Now the question is, what the actual rule of law of God is? As I have explained it in detail already here and there on this forum in my various posts in different threads, it is about one world government based upon rule of law of God, where in law is the supreme thing not any person, be it God himself. It is because God and people all must abide by that rule of law.

God is not excluded from the rule of law of God. Why not? It is because God himself has bound himself to same laws as he has given them to people. All works by people are to be rewarded by God as promised by God. This binds God with rule of law of God. We human beings did not ask God to promise us any rewards for our part in his scheme of things but he himself imposed these things upon himself.

This is why the whole universe and all things including people in it are bound strictly to rule of law of God as well as God himself. Whatever God does he has to do it according to his own set up system and law. This is why miracles are impossible in this universe because this universe is bound by set up systems and laws of God.

A law is only law if it is constant or consistent. If it is not constant or consistent then it is not a law. For example, in our human experience due to gravity water runs downhill always. Now if you tell me water runs uphill then I will have to call you a liar. Of course, there could be another law operating for that purpose but may be I am not aware about it but you are. In that case you need to explain that to me so that we are both on the same page regarding this.

Moreover if we accept God can go against his own set up system and law then we lose all our mental stability, why? Because if God changes properties of things at random then we cannot know what is what or what is going on so we become confused and cannot be sure about our past or present or future or anything at all. Suppose I want to make tea for myself so I light the fire under the kettle but it freezes the water in the kettle instead of heating it. May be I want to make a knife out of material but the material changes its nature so I end up with an orange instead of a knife. Can I or could I predict future behaviour of materials if they keep changing or kept changing at random? No. This is why even God could not tell us what to do for our future because we will not be able to know behaviours of various materials for sure to use them for fulfilling his purpose or program or for that matter our own needs and wants. All this needs consistency for sake of needed stability for us to function properly in this world mentally and physically. Which means materials must remain the same always as regard their properties.

A staff must not turn into a snake by magic in the name of God. Water must not turn into wine. One bread must not be able to feed many people. All things must remain ordinary and must work normally according to set up systems and laws of God. Only and only then we could make things from things for our purposes. Moreover miracles could not be proof of anything at all, because they will be events which pass away and not many people could witness them. If you gather a thousand people and you round them up around you and do something many of them will miss what you doing. Moreover people coming later on will question those miracles on basis of their own experiences of life. They will see such miracles do not and cannot happen as claimed by people so who is going to show them such miracles to convince them otherwise? Why then God should base his proof on such flimsy evidences? The claim that jesus died on the cross and rose up is therefore clearly false.

Come to think of it, what we call our life experience is based on this reality. Nothing can change it not even God or we cannot participate in his program at all because we have nothing to base our past upon and we cannot learn anything at all unless we have a reasonably reliable experience of our past. We will have no history and no future. We will have no way to predict anything about our future. This is why it is clear to me like the daylight that all stories of miracles in religious books have perfect normal explanations. People have invented the idea about miracles and they have written many books about miracles and on that basis they have misinterpreted scriptures. In other words almost all human beings have been lying to us save those who knew reality and have passed down that reality to us faithfully.

This shows people were not sensible enough to understand things as they were supposed to understand them. Why they were not sensible has been explained already. Likewise almost all people in the word even today have little or no sense to interpret the word of God properly despite having qualified as doctors of philosophy in our universities worldwide. Mullahs of all religions are the same and likewise the scientists. Jesus could not be result of miraculous birth. This is why the bible is full of lies along with the truth. Before anyone could claim miracles, one has to prove they are possible in this universe and that they serve a definite purpose. This is why all religious scriptures need to be reinterpreted sensibly in light of these like arguments or we cannot know what the words in them mean. Before I started working on the quran I had a lot of real questions in my mind which were result of a lot of research. This is why I started looking for answers according to some fundamental foundation. So far I am very successful with the reinterpretation of the quranic text. I did not get stuck anywhere in trying to reinterpret it my way.


This is why as I understand things, set up systems and laws of God never change with time ie they are permanent. Applications of laws are a different thing. Even though laws of God are permanent they do not apply in each and every situation but only and only in relevant situations. For example, we have a law that if someone breaks speed limit then what is going to be his penalty. This law is there always but only becomes applicable if someone does break the speed limit. If no one breaks a set speed limit then even though the law is there it does not apply because the situation that triggers its application has not arisen. Laws are like swords hanging over the necks which only fall when made to fall by a particular situation or they need to become triggered.

People say muhammad was above the law, can you see how absurd are such claims in the light of proper context of the quran? If God himself is not outside of the law in the quran then how could muhammad be above the rule of law of God? The fact is people have no idea what the quran is all about. People say we have read the quran but they have not read it to make proper sense of it. This is why so called muslim scholar have attributed so much nonsense to the quran. I have also explained why that happened. So you see, we have a lot of ground to cover when it comes to proper study of the quran. We need to leave our wrong ideas about God and the universe or humanity etc.

Coming to your question, it is answered by many people in the world by their own actions. You see wherever any people go they live by law of the land or they cannot be allowed to live there by rulers of those lands. Likewise when kingdom of God comes everyone will have to live by its rule of law, not their own. Why kingdom of God will come? Mainly because this is the reason why God ended up with having his creation and with sending his revelation for mankind to explain things to them as to what his plan and purpose is for creating all this creation.

Your confusion is that you want to live your life only and only your way. The problem with that is that none of us can live the way we want to instead we all must compromise by give and take. This means we must agree between ourselves to live in this world the way it suits all of us. This is why the question, does your way of life suit me or is it my way of life that suits you or none of our ways of life suit any of us? In that case how can we decide which rule of law to follow? This is where in comes the quran. It gives us clear guidelines to help us decide which way of life is best for us all.

It tells us to live as one people, what is wrong with that? Nothing. It tells us to live for each other by doing all we can to ensure well being of everyone as much as we humanly can according to our God given abilities, what is wrong with that? Nothing. And likewise many other things as I have posted already in one of the above posts ie being fair and just and compassionate in dealing with each other and not being unjust or unfair or cruel to each other.

Now you tell me if the quran guides us this way then how can I let you live any other way opposite to that or how can you let me live any other way opposite to that? If we did that we will be back to square one, would we not? So in that context, is the quran wrong in telling us to live by only and only the way advised by it? It is because by living any other way is going to cause rivalries, divisions, rifts, conflicts and wars between us. So who is wrong you and me or God?

If you don' t let me cause harms to others and I don't let you do the same to others and we both enforce working hard for betterment of all involved then why should we let each other get out of the line? Moreover do you know where do quran based constitution and its laws come from? I have explained that in detail in another thread. Constitution and its laws are made by people as a whole on basis of guidance of the quran for fulfilling the program of God.

This is why if you are a muslim then you are also part of the family and have the right and responsibility to explain to people what the constitution and its law should be according to your understanding of the quran. If your argument is strong enough or convincing then it will convince others to your point of view. This is why kingdom of God cannot come till enough people have learned enough sense to make proper sense of word of God and they come together to establish it for the good of humanity. I hope this helps you understand my point of view regarding the quran as to why I am putting so much hard work into it. It is because as I see it, it is going to help humanity very much get the idea about the right track before they decide to tread it. I see many people converting to islam but to me all religions and their followers are the same ie they are a collection of worshippers who do things by mere words and rituals.

They have nothing at all to do with organising and regulating humanity for getting its livelihood to begin with. A gathering of followers of an ideology that ignores what God needed to guide us about ie how to get our necessities of life. How could God ignore our life and living necessities and just keep going on about his worship or forgiveness of our sins etc etc? We certainly don't need such Gods and their such worshippers because they only and only are troublemakers who attribute nothing but their own falsehood and nonsense to God and that way make fool of each other.

Go to youtube and see what people are doing to each other in the name of religion or secularism. Foolishness has no bounds, so it seems, but it is gradually disappearing. This is why more and more people are leaving all religions as people discuss things with each other and see religions for what they really are. Look at what hindus are doing to muslims in india as well as what hindus are doing to each other. Look at all the human societies around the world and see what people are doing to each other. All this they could have avoided had they studied the quran as it ought to be studied and adopted it. Why and how? Because it tells them proper way of life to live by and to organise and regulate themselves according to it like soldiers for ensuring well being of humanity.

Think about why do we need money for anything at all? We don't need money system for dealing with each other. All we need is come together as a brotherhood of humanity and see what we need to do to fulfil all our daily needs and then organise and regulate our human society on that basis. Once we are organised then we look at what resources we have and how to use them for our benefit and that way divide our work teams and get on with it. However to reach this stage of thinking one has to learn a lot of sense which people are not bothered with. So you reap what you sow. This is why today world is short of everything because they have been busy using each other abusively to try to take undue advantages of each other instead of complementing each other.

Everyone is trying to get more and money instead of trying to get more and more sense of making proper sense of things. This is the end result of all this. The more people carry on living this way the more there are going to be problems for humanity much, much greater than corona. All because God has set up this world to work in a particular way so if we will understand the creation and revelation of God then we will have nothing at all to worry about because we will come to know what is going to happen and how or when or why. So we will be ahead of nature always.

The reason why we are lagging behind nature is, because we are busy fighting each other for securing our individual petty personal gains instead of living for ensuring well of each other whereby we end up wasting so many human minds which could have been employed or put to use for better things. This is why the whole human world has to change its way of life to quranic advised way of life better sooner rather than later. However if it does not then good luck to people and they should not blame God for their own petty choices.

regards and all the best.

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