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what's in a name?

PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:47 pm
by manfred
Muslims call Jesus "Isa".

Christians use "Jesus", pronounced in various ways around the world.

They know of course that this is not really the name he was known by when alive:

Yeshua' (Hebrew) —> Ιησους (Greek) —> Iesus (Latin) —> Jesus (English).

The name underwent adaptations from other languages in a number of steps.

Arabic Christians call Jesus Yasu' Which is very close to the Hebrew, using the same letters, but the pronunciation has shifted a little:

Hebrew Yeshua' = Yod + Shin + Waw + 'Ain
Arabic Yasu' = Ya + Sin + Waw + 'Ain

In other words, there were fewer adaptations and changes.

SOME Arab Christian publications, in very recent days, also use "ISA" but only when writing for Muslims.

But Muslims believe that the REAL, ACTUAL name for Jesus was "Isa" and say Christians got even the name wrong, to the message must be wrong too.

"Isa" is not Hebrew name. The closest name to it is "ESAU" which some Muslims say was the "real" name of Jesus.

But no Jew would name their kid "Esau" after the father of the Edomites, the enemies of the Jews, and the spurned brother of Jacob.

So why does the Qur'an call Jesus "Isa"?

Re: what's in a name?

PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:12 pm
by Takeiteasynow
So why does the Qur'an call Jesus "Isa"?


That's a wrong and rather silly question as it acts as an invite for circular reasoning. The only thing that counts is the question: "Why are the names different"?

Re: what's in a name?

PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:00 pm
by manfred
Ah, I see what you mean. "Because it is the right name. We know this because the Qur'an says so. And the Qur'an cannot be wrong because it is the exact word of God. We also know that because the Qu'an says so. And as it is the word of God is is of course right.... " Round and round until dizzy...

So let's ask instead why the names are different. We probably also get the tail chasing dog, but let's see.

Re: what's in a name?

PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:23 pm
by Fernando
Never mind, Takeiteasynow and Manfred, SAM can still explain: he'll know exactly why Christians got the name wrong, for sure.

Re: what's in a name?

PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:06 am
by SAM
Fernando wrote:Never mind, Takeiteasynow and Manfred, SAM can still explain: he'll know exactly why Christians got the name wrong, for sure.
First thing you need to know , in the Quran Jesus, his disciples were called Nasrani, not that the disciples called themselves Christians.

Re: what's in a name?

PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:41 am
by manfred
The first thing you need to know that you comment is off topic...

Re: what's in a name?

PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:56 am
by SAM
manfred wrote:Muslims call Jesus "Isa".

Christians use "Jesus", pronounced in various ways around the world.

They know of course that this is not really the name he was known by when alive:

Yeshua' (Hebrew) —> Ιησους (Greek) —> Iesus (Latin) —> Jesus (English).

The name underwent adaptations from other languages in a number of steps.

Arabic Christians call Jesus Yasu' Which is very close to the Hebrew, using the same letters, but the pronunciation has shifted a little:

Hebrew Yeshua' = Yod + Shin + Waw + 'Ain
Arabic Yasu' = Ya + Sin + Waw + 'Ain

In other words, there were fewer adaptations and changes.

SOME Arab Christian publications, in very recent days, also use "ISA" but only when writing for Muslims.

But Muslims believe that the REAL, ACTUAL name for Jesus was "Isa" and say Christians got even the name wrong, to the message must be wrong too.

"Isa" is not Hebrew name. The closest name to it is "ESAU" which some Muslims say was the "real" name of Jesus.

But no Jew would name their kid "Esau" after the father of the Edomites, the enemies of the Jews, and the spurned brother of Jacob.

So why does the Qur'an call Jesus "Isa"?
You are plagiarism: copy and paste in someone else's work as your own. :yuk: Surely you can not answer if asked because it is not from your own thoughts and writings... :tongueout:

Re: what's in a name?

PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:59 am
by manfred
Surely you cannot provide any reply because you are resorting to be rude again. And your grammar has gone wrong again.

Re: what's in a name?

PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:39 am
by SAM
When Muhammad encountered the People of the Book, he called Isa son of Mary, not Yasu, Ioesus, Yeshua, none of them said, Muhammad said wrong name.

Re: what's in a name?

PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:03 am
by manfred
WHO I am is irrelevant as after so many years in this forum you really should know.

All you do is showing that you have no reasonable reply. What the "people of the book" said to Mohammed is not properly found in sources, as all we have the Muslim propaganda machine. What we do know is that the no Christians ever called Jesus "isa" nor any ancient sources in Judaism or even the Roman sources.

Let's face it, would you argue with a bad tempered man commanding a bunch of smelly ruffians with swords? We know that most contemporaries of Mohammed found Mohammed comical and stupid, and they laughed at him. This is why he resorted to violence to spread Islam.

So "Isa" according to you is the "correct" name? Because Mohammed said so?

Re: what's in a name?

PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:31 am
by manfred
SAM your last post was removed as if was wholly unworthy of you. Please do not post random profanities and insults. If you do not like what is said to you, you can ignore it, or respond to it as befits a human being. If this topic makes you angry and unable to respond in a civilised way, please ignore it.

If you do want to discuss what is raised, then talk to others as you expect to be talked to. You should know better by now.

I will respond to the part that is about the topic, though. You say that some Christians Mohammed met did not raise an objection about the "Isa" name. I would need to see a source for this meeting that is NOT from the hadith, to see if it really happened as opposed to a tale spun by Muslims long after Mohammed's death. Then I would need to see a source, again non-Muslim that confirms that "Isa" was a name they used for Jesus. Silence, as I pointed out many times, does not amount to consent.

Even if we postulate that such a meeting ever happened it is not the slightest evidence that this name was ever used by anyone other than the Muslims.

Re: what's in a name?

PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:07 pm
by SAM
The first thing you need to know, King Abyssinia and his Bishops were the first People of the Book (Christians) that Mohammed has faced, about Isa and Mary in Islamic teachings.

The Abyssinian Christian King who provided protection and sanctuary for Muslims. The King Najashi and his Bishops are the first-hand eyewitness account of an events, they did not deny the truth stories of Isa, and Mariam in the Qur'an.

Who the hell you think you are to say the name Isa is wrong in the Quran.

Re: what's in a name?

PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:58 pm
by manfred
Slightly better, but still failing to address the main issue. This is not who I am, but where your sources are.

And the fact that you got the name of the king of Aksum wrong, is not encouraging.
"an events" is not proper English.

Then, since when did Mohammed himself emigrate to Abyssinia? Mohammed advised some of his followers to go there while still in Mecca. The sources for that are not accepted as authentic by quite a few scholars, so you are on thin ice from the start.

At most you can say that a number of Mohammed's early followers may have been offered temporary asylum in Abyssinia, as they claimed religious persecution. Tolerance of the Muslims does not amount to agreeing with their beliefs, now, does it?

Or is someone like Angela Merkel agreeing with Islam, because she let some refugees in?

We have no records at all of any Abyssinian Christians using "isa"to refer to Jesus, not then not now. Also, the Abyssinian Church teaches the DIVINITY of Christ strongly, and would never accept Mohammed's "Isa".

So why is that SAM?

and also, just nosey,... There are some 25 "prophets" named in the Qur'an, and most of them have names that are different to their biblical equivalent, some so different that it hard to work out who might be meant by that. Are you claiming that ALL these names are 100% the historically accurate names of the people mentioned?

Re: what's in a name?

PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:36 pm
by frankie
The Quran was allegedly revealed in Arabic, but the Arabic for Jesus is Yasu, not Isa.

Why would Allah use a non-Arabic word in his book allegedly revealed in Arabic?

If Allah cannot even get the name of his most respected of prophets right, it does not bode well for Allah’s competence as an omniscient being, and the rest of his alleged revelations.

What say you Muslims?

Re: what's in a name?

PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:49 pm
by SAM
I noticed that Manfred has changed my post comments from Muslims to Mohammed :yuk:

The first thing you need to know, King Abyssinia and his Bishops were the first People of the Book (Christians) that Muslims have faced, about Isa and Mary in Islamic teachings.

Re: what's in a name?

PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:00 pm
by manfred
No, SAM I have not. There is no note that it has been edited. Please do not make random accusations.

You also said the same thing higher up.

When Muhammad encountered the People of the Book, he called Isa son of Mary, not Yasu, Ioesus, Yeshua, none of them said, Muhammad said wrong name.


An apology for spreading lies is in order, SAM.

So SOME Muslims, presumably the refugees, told the king and the bishops about "Isa"? Source? And they said nothing in reply? Source? And this means they agreed? Why do you think that?

Re: what's in a name?

PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:34 pm
by manfred
let me show you.
Here is a message that I will edit.

=======

edited

Re: what's in a name?

PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:37 pm
by manfred
Can you see the message,

Last edited by manfred on Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.


at the bottom? That happens when you edit a message.

Re: what's in a name?

PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:57 pm
by SAM
manfred wrote:Can you see the message,

Last edited by manfred on Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.


at the bottom? That happens when you edit a message.

I am not a newbie here. I know you are someone who should not be trusted as a moderator here. Many of the old posts of the previous year's (10 yrs ago) comments were deleted.

Re: what's in a name?

PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:05 pm
by manfred
You deleted your own posts, whole sale, and I had to change the settings to stop you. It really is getting a bit much now. As you say you are not new here, so you know what posts get removed. If you want your posts to stay then do not insult members and do not troll around. Freedom of speech comes with some basic responsibility. We want your views and comments on topics, not your abuse.

Anything about the topic?