what's in a name?

Prove Islam is from God, why it is the 'One True Religion'.
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SAM
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Re: what's in a name?

Post by SAM »

manfred wrote:You are still trying to find out and make a lot of assumptions, guessing. And still do not know why Allah prefers chicken soup over ayam penyet and how he treats his in-grown toe-nail". You should try again to get an answer.


What's good for one is good for another..... If Mohammed can appoint himself and teach garbage then everybody else can do the same. You do it all the time, and if someone else does you get moody.

Now, on a serious note, the story about Waraqa is poorly supported or sourced.... we do not even have sufficient evidence that Mohammed ever met such a character. And we have next to nothing about the details of the supposed discussion that allegedly took place. All the story tells us is that Mohammed told him that, while in a cave alone, he was attacked by some bully pushing him around telling him to read when he could not, and for Waraqa apparently this meant Mohammed was a "prophet". Kind of convenient, if you think about it, specially if you bear in mind that Khadija already had hatched a plot to make her good for nothing husband into a "prophet" to take over the control of the Kaaba.... Isn't it odd how he concluded exactly what Khadija expected him to?

Even handier.... this waraqa died almost as soon as Mohammed and his clever wife made their claim.

You know what.... I think the entirely cock and bull story is made up AFTER Waraqa died. It really is too daft to be believed. But then, even more ridiculously, you come along about some secret knowledge about this fake meeting, and Waraqa even had a text that nobody else in the world ever had.

So what do you want me to say when you write evident rubbish?

It really is the last dregs of an argument to claim "secret knowledge" when you have no rational reply, and these days it fools nobody. It the the same ploy that Mohammed used... and it is nonsense.
"He (alone) knows the Unseen, nor does He make any one acquainted with His Mysteries,-"Except a messenger whom He has chosen: and then He makes a band of watchers march before him and behind him, :whistling:

Frankie and manfred believe that Muhammad had learned from Waraqa, but did not know what the first verse that Waraqa had taught him. :lol:
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

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manfred
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Re: what's in a name?

Post by manfred »

No, Manfred and Frankie believe that Mohammed had no learning nor wisdom... he strutted around with semen stains on his clothing and pretending to be a "prophet".... He heard some stories from the Jews and Christians which he confused first and then twisted to suit his personal needs.

And this belief is based not on mumbo jumbo, but on the evidence provided by Muslim sources.

And you can stop playing your "I am the messenger" game. People may think you are mentally ill.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Nosuperstition
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Re: what's in a name?

Post by Nosuperstition »

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18561&p=244577#p244577

In languages that have words which are either totally or partly Sanskrit derived words,transition of letter 'j' to 'i' and 'i' to 'j' is not uncommon.For example an ascetic is called 'yogi' or 'jogi' in both Hindi and Telugu.'javvani' or 'yavvani' in Sanskritised Telugu means a 'young' woman.Such transitions can be studied in detail in Sanskrit grammar.While a significant number of word combinations of loan words in Telugu called 'sandhi' words are indeed from Sanskrit,there also exist Telugu 'sandhi' words which differ from Sanskrit.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

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manfred
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Re: what's in a name?

Post by manfred »

You are getting close, NS, What may have happened NS, about this name, is this: The Hebrew name "yeshua" was first rendered in Greek as "Iesous", and then Muslims "arabised" this Greek word into "Isa". And that all of a sudden is the "true name", according to Muslims.

There is a similar thing with the Greek word for "gospel" which is "evangelion" This became "injil" for Muslims and then was seen as mystical text now lost that was "given" to Jesus, rather than the texts about Jesus from people in the early church.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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SAM
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Re: what's in a name?

Post by SAM »

manfred wrote:No, Manfred and Frankie believe that Mohammed had no learning nor wisdom... he strutted around with semen stains on his clothing and pretending to be a "prophet".... He heard some stories from the Jews and Christians which he confused first and then twisted to suit his personal needs.

And this belief is based not on mumbo jumbo, but on the evidence provided by Muslim sources.

And you can stop playing your "I am the messenger" game. People may think you are mentally ill.

Tell me, are Jews and Christians shouting.. O Muhammad, you are wrong ... Isa' real name is Jesus or Iesous or Yeshua, he is the son of God, not the son of Mary... :coffee:
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

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manfred
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Re: what's in a name?

Post by manfred »

It may sound strange to you, but "son or Mary" does not say anything about a father, does it?

And we had that point three times now, and you had a reply. First, the Jews had little interest or knowledge about Jesus, second BOTH the Jews and the Christians were convinced that Mohammed was an imbecile, so nobody took his rants seriously. He was LAUGHED AT. That is why Mohammed resorted to force.

Furthermore, as repeatedly explained, whatever anyone did NOT say does not provide the slightest evidence for anything.

There are quite a few people in mental hospitals claiming to be Elvis. The doctors and nurses do not contradict them so as not to upset them. This proves Elvis is alive and well?

Try this SAM: Stand your your street corner and shout "I am the mighty demon Sametysam, the unclean!!! Obey me, or I give you boils." The chances are you get no response at all, except perhaps a call for an ambulance or some laughter, like Mohammed... That means you are 100% believed? Not only that, it PROVES that you are this demon? Really?

There is no Hebrew name "Isa", and Jesus "acquired this name with the arrival of Islam. The Arab Christians never used it and to this day do not, unless they want to minister to Muslims. And learned Christians, when Islam did become a significant force, did look at Mohammed's teachings, and took it apart, or rather it fell apart at the slightest examination. One of the earliest to discuss it was John of Damascus. The Muslims tried to stop him from writing by blinding him. It did not work, he simply took to using a helper.

Also, to highlight the hypocrisy of your response, suppose the name issue had been raised by the Abyssinian Christian. They may have done, we simply have no record of that. Then you would argue that because of "corrupt" Christian teachings they were "hostile" to the poor Muslims and deserve to be killed, as Mohammed later said.

If you want to challenge the point made, you need to find an early Christian source (or a Jewish one) that refers to Jesus as "Isa", and claims that to be the correct name.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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Takeiteasynow
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Re: what's in a name?

Post by Takeiteasynow »

The Hebrew name "yeshua" was first rendered in Greek as "Iesous", and then Muslims "arabised" this Greek word into "Isa". And that all of a sudden is the "true name", according to Muslims.
This maybe related to the regular shift from Aramaic to Arabic (Yeshua3 > yassu3). But the shift from Yeshua3 to 3issa seems strange - the hypothesis is that 3issa went through mandaic Aramaic with the loss of yassa or yasha.

But the Safaitic script will bring, sooner or later, a solution. Safaitic inscriptions are pre-Christian, do not show any clear signs of having been produced by Jewish tribes or communities but do attest an onomasticon similar to the Bible, earlier attested in Aromite. Often these names show the same sound changes as in the later Qur'an. For instance theophoric name Ishmael is attested in Safaitic as ʾismāʿīl, spelled ʾsmʿl - which is similar to the spelling of Ishmael in the Quran: ismāʿīl.

The main point here is that the Safaitic script was already used 700 years before the Quran was codified and used extensively between Sinai/Petra (Nabataeans) and Palmyra (Nazarenes). So it is more than likely that biblical names in the Quran are borrowed from Aramaic as it was spoken in the first century BC. So any solution for the proposed Arabized form or transformation of Yeshua goes through the Safaitic script and its Aramaic source.

Note: Safaitic is a variety of the South Semitic script used by the nomads of the basalt desert of southern Syria and northern Jordan, the so-called Ḥarrah, to carve rock inscriptions in various dialects of Old Arabic (from wiki)
Last edited by Takeiteasynow on Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Theological: Mahmud from Najran Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Takeiteasynow
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Re: what's in a name?

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Forgot to mention: the personal names ʿsy, ʿīsay or ʿūsay are mentioned in Safaitic script where ʿsy is thought to be the equivalent of Hebrew Yeshua.

We think differently and that it derives from Hebrew Esau.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Theological: Mahmud from Najran Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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manfred
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Re: what's in a name?

Post by manfred »

The Arab Christians say "Yasu", not "Isa". "Isa" is more likely to have arrived via the Greek, I think...

But the "journey" to "Isa" is not that important.... SAM seems to think that his mother would have called him "Isa"....
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Nosuperstition
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Re: what's in a name?

Post by Nosuperstition »

Christ is called 'Yesu' in Telugu but in Hindi he is known as 'Isa Masih' possibly meaning Jesus,the messiah or Jesus , the prophet.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

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SAM
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Re: what's in a name?

Post by SAM »

manfred wrote:It may sound strange to you, but "son or Mary" does not say anything about a father, does it?

And we had that point three times now, and you had a reply. First, the Jews had little interest or knowledge about Jesus, second BOTH the Jews and the Christians were convinced that Mohammed was an imbecile, so nobody took his rants seriously. He was LAUGHED AT. That is why Mohammed resorted to force.

Furthermore, as repeatedly explained, whatever anyone did NOT say does not provide the slightest evidence for anything.

There are quite a few people in mental hospitals claiming to be Elvis. The doctors and nurses do not contradict them so as not to upset them. This proves Elvis is alive and well?

Try this SAM: Stand your your street corner and shout "I am the mighty demon Sametysam, the unclean!!! Obey me, or I give you boils." The chances are you get no response at all, except perhaps a call for an ambulance or some laughter, like Mohammed... That means you are 100% believed? Not only that, it PROVES that you are this demon? Really?

There is no Hebrew name "Isa", and Jesus "acquired this name with the arrival of Islam. The Arab Christians never used it and to this day do not, unless they want to minister to Muslims. And learned Christians, when Islam did become a significant force, did look at Mohammed's teachings, and took it apart, or rather it fell apart at the slightest examination. One of the earliest to discuss it was John of Damascus. The Muslims tried to stop him from writing by blinding him. It did not work, he simply took to using a helper.

Also, to highlight the hypocrisy of your response, suppose the name issue had been raised by the Abyssinian Christian. They may have done, we simply have no record of that. Then you would argue that because of "corrupt" Christian teachings they were "hostile" to the poor Muslims and deserve to be killed, as Mohammed later said.

If you want to challenge the point made, you need to find an early Christian source (or a Jewish one) that refers to Jesus as "Isa", and claims that to be the correct name.
:blahblah1: :blahblah1: :blahblah1: You believe Muhammad heard some stories from Jews and Christians. And I have asked you for answers .... Are Jews and Christians or any Arabs screaming.... O Muhammad, you are wrong ... Isa' real name is Jesus or Iesous or Yeshua, he is the son of God, not the son of Mary...
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

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manfred
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Re: what's in a name?

Post by manfred »

Nosuperstition wrote:Christ is called 'Yesu' in Telugu but in Hindi he is known as 'Isa Masih' possibly meaning Jesus,the messiah or Jesus , the prophet.
Interesting....

To me this suggests that most people India heard about Jesus from from the Muslims, but perhaps some in East India had some Christian contacts too.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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manfred
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Re: what's in a name?

Post by manfred »

SAM, you had that answered 3 times. So try again.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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SAM
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Re: what's in a name?

Post by SAM »

manfred wrote:SAM, you had that answered 3 times. So try again.
Nope...you didn't answer me.. YES or NO...
Last edited by SAM on Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

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manfred
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Re: what's in a name?

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Not Screaming, but pointing it out, sure, many times. And yet again, you are trying to create an argument from alleged silence. This is absurd and the fact that you are repeating the same nonsense over and over does not make it better.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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SAM
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Re: what's in a name?

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manfred wrote:Not Screaming, but pointing it out, sure, many times. And yet again, you are trying to create an argument from alleged silence. This is absurd and the fact that you are repeating the same nonsense over and over does not make it better.
You also believe Muhammad has learned from Waraqa and People of the Book and you also believe he met a Christian monk named Bahira, but you still don't know what the first verse or any verse of the Gospel / Torah was taught by them to him.

". . . and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say, 'We are Christians,' because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant" (5:82).

Are Christian and Jewish scholars Abdullah ibn Salam, who embraced Islam in the time of Muhammad, did they say that the name of Isa the son of Mary was wrong.
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

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manfred
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Re: what's in a name?

Post by manfred »

Sam you are getting tedious....


How do we know that Mohammed plagiarised things? It's not a belief, it's a proven fact. You can trace much of what he says to biblical and other texts, and this has been shown many times.

And the upteenth time, of course we know that the name of Jesus is different in different languages, but it ludicrous to suggest that "isa" is the original, "true" name. I am surprised you need to be told that.

Now you are saying that a convert to Islam did not point out the name was wrong.... well obviously he wouldn't. What does that prove?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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manfred
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Re: what's in a name?

Post by manfred »

In amongst tirades of abuse SAM which were removed, SAM said something very curious.... he calls the "people of the book" ignorant and yet he refers to them to make his case....
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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Fernando
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Re: what's in a name?

Post by Fernando »

manfred wrote:And if you seeking asylum somewhere it is not a clever move to challenge the religion or the authority of your host country,.
I doubt SAM - or Mohammed - would agree with that!
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

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Garudaman
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Re: what's in a name?

Post by Garudaman »

the correct question is why arabian christians using yasu instead isa (which is close to iesous) while injil is greek? because they're more modern arabian christians?

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