what's in a name?

Prove Islam is from God, why it is the 'One True Religion'.
User avatar
SAM
Posts: 4317
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:31 pm
Location: Arasy

Re: what's in a name?

Post by SAM »

manfred wrote:Jesus's name in his life time would have been Yeshua as Matthew makes clear.
Yeshua' is the name of an another Prophet sent to the Israelites. So, the real name of Jesus is Isa, son of Mariam.
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: what's in a name?

Post by manfred »

Yeshua' is the name of an another Prophet sent to the Israelites. So, the real name of Jesus is Isa, son of Mariam.
SAM it must be the middle of the night where you are. So have some sleep and post when you are well rested and can think straight.

SO... WHO is this "other prophet"? Any sources, what was his message and his story, according to you?

Then, the little word "SO" suggests that what was said before somehow provided evidence for what follows the SO....

Clearly you can see that is simply logically false. The name of person A (real or not) provides no clue at all about the name of person B.

And as "Miriam" is clearly described in the Qur'an as the daughter of Imran (Amram), this means that Aaron and Moses are her brothers, and "Isa" is the nephew of Moses and Aaron. So how can "ISA" be the Jesus who lived some 1400 years later?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Nosuperstition
Posts: 3815
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:45 am

Re: what's in a name?

Post by Nosuperstition »

manfred wrote:We are not obsessing about the exact name, SAM. Greek does not have a letter "u" and the sound for "u" (or "oo") is represented with a diphthong, an o-mikron and a ypsilon. So in Latin and later languages which do have the letter "u" it makes sense to write it that way. Similarly Greek has only one letter "i" (iota) this was both used as a vowel and as a consonant. (i and j) In Latin that was the same, pretty much.

However, as from early the middle ages, writing distinguished between an i and a j and the new letter j became common use, already in medieval Latin. That is how we got the transformation from Iesous to Jesus.

We have similar "j" invasion in many other names, Jacob, for example.
Jan becomes Ian,Yehovah becomes Jehowah.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

User avatar
SAM
Posts: 4317
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:31 pm
Location: Arasy

Re: what's in a name?

Post by SAM »

manfred wrote:
Yeshua' is the name of an another Prophet sent to the Israelites. So, the real name of Jesus is Isa, son of Mariam.
SAM it must be the middle of the night where you are. So have some sleep and post when you are well rested and can think straight.

SO... WHO is this "other prophet"? Any sources, what was his message and his story, according to you?

Then, the little word "SO" suggests that what was said before somehow provided evidence for what follows the SO....

Clearly you can see that is simply logically false. The name of person A (real or not) provides no clue at all about the name of person B.
Don't act stupid, you know that Yeshua' is the name of an another Prophet sent to the Israelites called Joshua. Yeshua is the Hebrew name, and its English spelling is “Joshua.” Iesous is the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew name, and its English spelling is “Jesus.”

According to the books of Exodus, Numbers and Joshua, he was Moses' assistant and became the leader of the Israelite tribes after the death of Moses.
And as "Miriam" is clearly described in the Qur'an as the daughter of Imran (Amram), this means that Aaron and Moses are her brothers, and "Isa" is the nephew of Moses and Aaron. So how can "ISA" be the Jesus who lived some 1400 years later?
As I said, you still have ignorant understanding of the Quran. "... But those(like manfed) in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord,.."

Mary was greeted by a deluge of accusations by Jews, especially the Pharisees, when she returned from seclusion to her hometown with baby Isa.

Surah Maryam, 19: 27-28, "Then she brought him to her people, carrying him. They said, "O Mary, you have certainly done a thing unprecedented. O sister of Aaron, your father was not a man of evil, nor was your mother unchaste."

It was the Jews who had called Mary... O sister of Aaron.

Watch this video clip (08:00), Mary's event has returned to her hometown
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: what's in a name?

Post by manfred »

This is the last post where you are rude that will remain.

SAM, the "Joshua" of the Hebrew bible is not mentioned in the Qur'an. Joshua and Yeshua are not the same. And it may surprise you SAM, but different people can not only have similar names, even the same ones!

So it was "the Jews" the ones contemporary with Jesus who thought that Mary was 1400 years old... right.... and Allah was similarly confused when he called her "daughter of Imran".... now it all makes sense...

And then the child got a non-Hebrew name....

SAM this really not defensible. The Qur'an is garbled.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

User avatar
SAM
Posts: 4317
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:31 pm
Location: Arasy

Re: what's in a name?

Post by SAM »

manfred wrote:This is the last post where you are rude that will remain.

SAM, the "Joshua" of the Hebrew bible is not mentioned in the Qur'an. Joshua and Yeshua are not the same. And it may surprise you SAM, but different people can not only have similar names, even the same ones!

So it was "the Jews" the ones contemporary with Jesus who thought that Mary was 1400 years old... right.... and Allah was similarly confused when he called her "daughter of Imran".... now it all makes sense...

And then the child got a non-Hebrew name....

SAM this really not defensible. The Qur'an is garbled.
The story of Mariam and Isa is based on the original Injil which had been told to Muhammad, not from man-made N.T inspired by God's Roman Paganism. And it has been confirmed and verified by the People of the Book- Jewish, Christian and Abyssinian Christian King who provides sanctuary and protection for Muslims. They do not deny the story of the truth of Jesus' life history, and Mariam in the Qur'an.
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: what's in a name?

Post by manfred »

Ah, the "injil".... show it to me, please.

And we had the Abussinian argument, and it was debunked before. "They do not deny...." really? Where is the source where the Muslims tell them about "Isa" and they say "Gee, that is all true! Christianity is all wrong....!"
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

frankie
Posts: 2608
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: what's in a name?

Post by frankie »

SAM wrote:
manfred wrote:This is the last post where you are rude that will remain.

SAM, the "Joshua" of the Hebrew bible is not mentioned in the Qur'an. Joshua and Yeshua are not the same. And it may surprise you SAM, but different people can not only have similar names, even the same ones!

So it was "the Jews" the ones contemporary with Jesus who thought that Mary was 1400 years old... right.... and Allah was similarly confused when he called her "daughter of Imran".... now it all makes sense...

And then the child got a non-Hebrew name....

SAM this really not defensible. The Qur'an is garbled.
The story of Mariam and Isa is based on the original Injil which had been told to Muhammad, not from man-made N.T inspired by God's Roman Paganism. And it has been confirmed and verified by the People of the Book- Jewish, Christian and Abyssinian Christian King who provides sanctuary and protection for Muslims. They do not deny the story of the truth of Jesus' life history, and Mariam in the Qur'an.

SAM
The story of Mariam and Isa is based on the original Injil which had been told to Muhammad, not from man-made N.T inspired by God's Roman Paganism.
Contrary to what the Quran tells you about the Injil,it is not a book given to Jesus, Injil meaning Good News, is what Jesus did for mankind, atoning for sin by His death and resurrection, thereby reconciling mankind with God.

The Quran gets this wrong, which in turn has mis led you and countless Muslims to believe something which is not true,aka you have been lied to.

This Good News was taken by word of mouth by the first Christians to other parts of the region of Israel, eventually being written down, encompassing the accounts of Jesus' ministry, by those who knew Him, and by those who knew these eyewitnesses, which for ease of reference are called the Gospels.

This Good News eventually reached Arabia, which is why Waraqa" would write from the Gospel in Hebrew"

This Good News has never changed, Christians today believe in the same message the first Christians preached, nothing has changed, because the message has not changed.

Bukhari Vol 1 Book 1 Number 3

....Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Nawfal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the PreIslamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write......

frankie
Posts: 2608
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: what's in a name?

Post by frankie »

SAM wrote:
manfred wrote:
Yeshua' is the name of an another Prophet sent to the Israelites. So, the real name of Jesus is Isa, son of Mariam.
SAM it must be the middle of the night where you are. So have some sleep and post when you are well rested and can think straight.

SO... WHO is this "other prophet"? Any sources, what was his message and his story, according to you?

Then, the little word "SO" suggests that what was said before somehow provided evidence for what follows the SO....

Clearly you can see that is simply logically false. The name of person A (real or not) provides no clue at all about the name of person B.
Don't act stupid, you know that Yeshua' is the name of an another Prophet sent to the Israelites called Joshua. Yeshua is the Hebrew name, and its English spelling is “Joshua.” Iesous is the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew name, and its English spelling is “Jesus.”

According to the books of Exodus, Numbers and Joshua, he was Moses' assistant and became the leader of the Israelite tribes after the death of Moses.
And as "Miriam" is clearly described in the Qur'an as the daughter of Imran (Amram), this means that Aaron and Moses are her brothers, and "Isa" is the nephew of Moses and Aaron. So how can "ISA" be the Jesus who lived some 1400 years later?
As I said, you still have ignorant understanding of the Quran. "... But those(like manfed) in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord,.."

Mary was greeted by a deluge of accusations by Jews, especially the Pharisees, when she returned from seclusion to her hometown with baby Isa.

Surah Maryam, 19: 27-28, "Then she brought him to her people, carrying him. They said, "O Mary, you have certainly done a thing unprecedented. O sister of Aaron, your father was not a man of evil, nor was your mother unchaste."

It was the Jews who had called Mary... O sister of Aaron.

Watch this video clip (08:00), Mary's event has returned to her hometown

SAM
It was the Jews who had called Mary... O sister of Aaron.
The Jews would not be that stupid, but Muslims are, because their god Allah told them lies, yet again.

Mary was not related to Aeron either by birth or tribe, proving she could not have been connected to the lineage of Moses.

Mary was from the tribe of Judah, Moses was from the tribe of Levi.

It was Marys cousin Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist who was from the tribe of Levi, the Quran aka Allah got this wrong, and used the wrong Mary, it confused Miriam, the sister of Moses and Aeron, with Mary (Miriam in Hebrew) the mother of Jesus.

So much for Allah's omniscience.

You really need to start believing in a god which gets things right SAM.

User avatar
SAM
Posts: 4317
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:31 pm
Location: Arasy

Re: what's in a name?

Post by SAM »

frankie wrote: SAM

Contrary to what the Quran tells you about the Injil,it is not a book given to Jesus, Injil meaning Good News, is what Jesus did for mankind, atoning for sin by His death and resurrection, thereby reconciling mankind with God.

The Quran gets this wrong, which in turn has mis led you and countless Muslims to believe something which is not true,aka you have been lied to.

This Good News was taken by word of mouth by the first Christians to other parts of the region of Israel, eventually being written down, encompassing the accounts of Jesus' ministry, by those who knew Him, and by those who knew these eyewitnesses, which for ease of reference are called the Gospels.

This Good News eventually reached Arabia, which is why Waraqa" would write from the Gospel in Hebrew"

This Good News has never changed, Christians today believe in the same message the first Christians preached, nothing has changed, because the message has not changed.

Bukhari Vol 1 Book 1 Number 3

....Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Nawfal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the PreIslamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write......
Waraqa was an old Christian man, who first recognized Muhammad's prophethood and died shortly after Muhammad received the first revelation. Muhammad still received revelations for twenty-three years after Waraqa's death.

Tell me, what is the first verse of the Injil that Waraqa taught Muhammad.

Did Muhammad receive revelation from the Holy Spirit that is Waraqa or disguised as Gabriel in a different place and even when he was among his friends.
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

User avatar
Takeiteasynow
Posts: 771
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 8:24 pm

Re: what's in a name?

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Fernando wrote:
Takeiteasynow wrote: But is it Malak or Malik? Work in progress.
The Curse of Defective Scripts strikes again.
Epigraphy defeats the Curse of the Defective Script: A Nabataean inscription from Wadi Musa, on the royal tombs, shows 'Baal-Shamin Maliku' meaning the '(royal) Messenger from the Lord of Heavens'. Malakbêl in Tadmur is depicted or mentioned in the same context, that of Baal-Shamin (Lord of Heavens). The root mlk refers here to the role of a priest-king.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Theological: Mahmud from Najran Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

frankie
Posts: 2608
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: what's in a name?

Post by frankie »

SAM wrote:
frankie wrote: SAM

Contrary to what the Quran tells you about the Injil,it is not a book given to Jesus, Injil meaning Good News, is what Jesus did for mankind, atoning for sin by His death and resurrection, thereby reconciling mankind with God.

The Quran gets this wrong, which in turn has mis led you and countless Muslims to believe something which is not true,aka you have been lied to.

This Good News was taken by word of mouth by the first Christians to other parts of the region of Israel, eventually being written down, encompassing the accounts of Jesus' ministry, by those who knew Him, and by those who knew these eyewitnesses, which for ease of reference are called the Gospels.

This Good News eventually reached Arabia, which is why Waraqa" would write from the Gospel in Hebrew"

This Good News has never changed, Christians today believe in the same message the first Christians preached, nothing has changed, because the message has not changed.

Bukhari Vol 1 Book 1 Number 3

....Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Nawfal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the PreIslamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write......
Waraqa was an old Christian man, who first recognized Muhammad's prophethood and died shortly after Muhammad received the first revelation. Muhammad still received revelations for twenty-three years after Waraqa's death.

Tell me, what is the first verse of the Injil that Waraqa taught Muhammad.

Did Muhammad receive revelation from the Holy Spirit that is Waraqa or disguised as Gabriel in a different place and even when he was among his friends.

SAM

Your comment changes nothing, the Christian message of salvation has never changed since the time of Waraqa,it remains the same, totally refuting all Islamic claims.

What should concern you more, is why the Quran says the Gospel is a book given to Jesus, when it is not, plus the fact that it is only the testimonies of a disobedient Christian, who did not "test the spirit "as his scriptures told him, when confronted with claims about prophethood,and an intellectually deficient woman,(according to Allah that is) who claimed Mohammed was a prophet of God.

Such testimonies given today, would be laughed out of a court of law.

User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: what's in a name?

Post by manfred »

Hi frankie, SAM's claim was that the name "ISA" was "confirmed" or at least not contradicted by Waraqa and some Christian from what is today Ethiopia. Waraqa died before Mohammed started talking about ISA, so that is a false trail. The Abyssinian Christians he mentions are supposed to have given asylum to some Muslims. We do not know the exact dates, or indeed if this is even true, so we cannot say if these Muslims had even already heard about "ISA"... And if you seeking asylum somewhere it is not a clever move to challenge the religion or the authority of your host country, so I doubt very much, even if they had heard Mohammed talking about "Isa", the Muslims would have confronted the local bishop to tell him "Oi, the name is Isa not Jesus, stupid. And he never was crucified either, nor rose from the dead." This would most likely resulted in the bishops asking the king to get rid of the Muslims, as they are causing trouble.

At the very best we can presume that the Muslims mentioned "Isa" in a way today's Muslims do when doing dahwa. "We also be believe in Jesus, you know, We call him Isa...." Acknowledging such a statement without contradiction is not the same as agreeing that Isa was the true name of Jesus. And how would they know his name better than the people who met him, his disciples? When someone says to you "I believe the earth is flat..." And you say "Ok, so that is what you believe...." does that mean you have agreed that the earth is flat?

So I guess SAM ran out of excuses, as he stopped talking about the topic.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

frankie
Posts: 2608
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: what's in a name?

Post by frankie »

manfred wrote:Hi frankie, SAM's claim was that the name "ISA" was "confirmed" or at least not contradicted by Waraqa and some Christian from what is today Ethiopia. Waraqa died before Mohammed started talking about ISA, so that is a false trail. The Abyssinian Christians he mentions are supposed to have given asylum to some Muslims. We do not know the exact dates, or indeed if this is even true, so we cannot say of these Muslims had even already heard about "ISA"... And if you seeking asylum somewhere it is not a clever move to challenge the religion or the authority of your host country, so I doubt very much, even if they had heard Mohammed talking about "Isa", the Muslims would have confronted the local bishop to tell him "Oi, the name is Isa not Jesus, stupid. And he never was crucified either, nor rose from the dead." This would most likely resulted in the bishops asking the king to get rid of the Muslims, as they are causing trouble.

So I guess SAM ran out of excuses, as he stopped talking about the topic.

manfred

Thank you manfred for your wise words.

Muslims like SAM have no answers when confronted with the truth of their faith, they are, and will forever remain impotent.

User avatar
SAM
Posts: 4317
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:31 pm
Location: Arasy

Re: what's in a name?

Post by SAM »

frankie wrote:
manfred

Thank you manfred for your wise words.

Muslims like SAM have no answers when confronted with the truth of their faith, they are, and will forever remain impotent.
:lotpot:

You still haven’t answer my question..” what is the first verse of the Injil that Waraqa taught Muhammad.”

If you dont know, I can tell you..
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: what's in a name?

Post by manfred »

Another little secret SAM? So this waraqa had something nobody else ever had, a copy of this "injil"? What happened to it? Did a goat eat eat or something?

And are you suggesting that the Waraqa acted as a part time stand in for Gabriel? Did he get wages for that from Allah?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

User avatar
SAM
Posts: 4317
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:31 pm
Location: Arasy

Re: what's in a name?

Post by SAM »

manfred wrote:Another little secret SAM? So this waraqa had something nobody else ever had, a copy of this "injil"? What happened to it? Did a goat eat eat or something?

And are you suggesting that the Waraqa acted as a part time stand in for Gabriel? Did he get wages for that from Allah?
You are still trying to find out and make a lot of assumptions, guessing. And still do not know "what is the first verse of the Injil that Waraqa has taught Muhammad". You should try again to get an answer.
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: what's in a name?

Post by manfred »

Not until you tell me why Allah prefers chicken soup over ayam penyet and how he treats his in-grown toe-nail. If you do, I may let you into the secret of the plumbing and flushing mechanism of Allah's thrown above the waters, something only known to prophet manfred.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

User avatar
SAM
Posts: 4317
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:31 pm
Location: Arasy

Re: what's in a name?

Post by SAM »

manfred wrote:Not until you tell me why Allah prefers chicken soup over ayam penyet and how he treats his in-grown toe-nail. If you do, I may let you into the secret of the plumbing and flushing mechanism of Allah's thrown above the waters, something only known to prophet manfred.
:lotpot: The self-appointed prophet did not know what to do after being raised from the death of 6 feet underground :lotpot: .
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: what's in a name?

Post by manfred »

You are still trying to find out and make a lot of assumptions, guessing. And still do not know why Allah prefers chicken soup over ayam penyet and how he treats his in-grown toe-nail". You should try again to get an answer.


What's good for one is good for another..... If Mohammed can appoint himself and teach garbage then everybody else can do the same. You do it all the time, and if someone else does you get moody.

Now, on a serious note, the story about Waraqa is poorly supported or sourced.... we do not even have sufficient evidence that Mohammed ever met such a character. And we have next to nothing about the details of the supposed discussion that allegedly took place. All the story tells us is that Mohammed told him that, while in a cave alone, he was attacked by some bully pushing him around telling him to read when he could not, and for Waraqa apparently this meant Mohammed was a "prophet". Kind of convenient, if you think about it, specially if you bear in mind that Khadija already had hatched a plot to make her good for nothing husband into a "prophet" to take over the control of the Kaaba.... Isn't it odd how he concluded exactly what Khadija expected him to?

Even handier.... this waraqa died almost as soon as Mohammed and his clever wife made their claim.

You know what.... I think the entirely cock and bull story is made up AFTER Waraqa died. It really is too daft to be believed. But then, even more ridiculously, you come along about some secret knowledge about this fake meeting, and Waraqa even had a text that nobody else in the world ever had.

So what do you want me to say when you write evident rubbish?

It really is the last dregs of an argument to claim "secret knowledge" when you have no rational reply, and these days it fools nobody. It the the same ploy that Mohammed used... and it is nonsense.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Post Reply