SAM explains Islam

Prove Islam is from God, why it is the 'One True Religion'.
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SAM
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Re: SAM explains Islam

Post by SAM »

manfred wrote:SAM....
did you say there is only one Qur'an? Strange how yours is somewhat different than the copies I found:
4:23...Prohibited to you (For marriage) are:- Your mothers, daughters, sisters; father's sisters, Mother's sisters; brother's daughters, sister's daughters; foster-mothers (Who gave you suck), foster-sisters; your wives' mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom ye have gone in,- no prohibition if ye have not gone in;- (Those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time, except for what is past; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful;-

4:24.. Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
You find the Arabic and several translations here, all by Muslims.

http://www.openburhan.net/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Here is the context we are told relate to that verse:
Abu Said al-Khudri said: "The apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives because of their pagan husbands. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Quranic verse, "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess". That is to say, they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period." [The Quran verse is 4:24]
Sunan Abu Dawud 2155
This is also confirmed here:
Abu Sa'id al-Khudri reported that at the Battle of Hunain Allah's Messenger sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah's Messenger seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that:" And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (Quran 4:. 24)" (i. e. they were lawful for them when their 'Idda period came to an end).
Sahih Muslim 8:3432
And tafsir also confrims this:
And, forbidden to you are, wedded women, those with spouses, that you should marry them before they have left their spouses, be they Muslim free women or not; save what your right hands own, of captured [slave] girls, whom you may have sexual intercourse with, even if they should have spouses among the enemy camp, but only after they have been absolved of the possibility of pregnancy [after the completion of one menstrual cycle]; this is what God has prescribed for you.
Qur'an 4:24 Tafsir al-Jalalayn
Quran 4:25, “And whoever among you cannot [find] the means to marry free, believing women, then [he may marry] from those whom your right hands possess of believing slave girls. And Allah is most knowing about your faith. You [believers] are of one another. So marry them with the permission of their people and give them their due compensation according to what is acceptable. [They should be] chaste, neither [of] those who commit unlawful intercourse randomly nor those who take [secret] lovers. But once they are sheltered in marriage, if they should commit adultery, then for them is half the punishment for free [unmarried] women. This [allowance] is for him among you who fears sin, but to be patient is better for you. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.”

Verse 4:24, According to Islamic rules. If a woman is captured along with her husband she would not be separated and continue to be the wife of her husband. Those women whose husbands are not captured with them would be considered divorced and after meeting the post-divorce “Mandatory period” would become permissible for their Muslim owners.
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

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manfred
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Re: SAM explains Islam

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Verse 4:24, According to Islamic rules. If a woman is captured along with her husband she would not be separated and continue to be the wife of her husband. Those women whose husbands are not captured with them would be considered divorced and after meeting the post-divorce “Mandatory period” would become permissible for their Muslim owners.
When Mohammed captured the chief of the Quraiza and his wife, did he do what you say?

And a woman gets no say in whether or not she is divorced?

And a "right hand possession" is NOT a wife. It is, as clearly stated, any captured woman, even a woman who is married to someone else, and who Muslims presume outrageously to be allowed to have sex with and treat like their trophies.. in fact the two Jalal express it clearly: they are in effect sex slaves.

This is an abomination, and it is hard to believe that Mohammed successfully peddled this vile idea as a divine revelation.

And the waiting period is there ONLY to ensure she is not pregnant.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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SAM
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Re: SAM explains Islam

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manfred wrote:
Verse 4:24, According to Islamic rules. If a woman is captured along with her husband she would not be separated and continue to be the wife of her husband. Those women whose husbands are not captured with them would be considered divorced and after meeting the post-divorce “Mandatory period” would become permissible for their Muslim owners.
When Mohammed captured the chief of the Quraiza and his wife, did he do what you say?

And a woman gets no say in whether or not she is divorced?

And a "right hand possession" is NOT a wife. It is, as clearly stated, any captured woman, even a woman who is married to someone else, and who Muslims presume outrageously to be allowed to have sex with and treat like their trophies.. in fact the two Jalal express it clearly: they are in effect sex slaves.

This is an abomination, and it is hard to believe that Mohammed successfully peddled this vile idea as a divine revelation.

And the waiting period is there ONLY to ensure she is not pregnant.
4.24 Jalal - Al-Jalalayn
And, forbidden to you are, wedded women, those with spouses, that you should marry them before they have left their spouses, be they Muslim free women or not; save what your right hands own, of captured [slave] girls, whom you may have sexual intercourse with, even if they should have spouses among the enemy camp, but only after they have been absolved of the possibility of pregnancy [after the completion of one menstrual cycle]; this is what God has prescribed for you (kitāba is in the accusative because it is the verbal noun). Lawful for you (read passive wa-uhilla, or active wa-ahalla), beyond all that, that is, except what He has forbidden you of women, is that you seek, women, using your wealth, by way of a dowry or a price, in wedlock and not, fornicating, in illicitly. Such wives as you enjoy thereby, and have had sexual intercourse with, give them their wages, the dowries that you have assigned them, as an obligation; you are not at fault in agreeing together, you and they, after the obligation, is waived, decreased or increased. God is ever Knowing, of His creatures, Wise, in what He has ordained for them.


(Surely, Allah is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise.) is suitable here, after Allah mentioned these prohibitions.

https://quranx.com/Tafsirs/4.24" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
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Hombre
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Re: Illegitimate children in England

Post by Hombre »

SAM wrote:Nearly half of the UK population is illegitimate children

In England and Wales last year 48.1 per cent of babies were born to single or cohabiting parents – meaning Britain may soon join the ranks of European countries where unmarried mothers are in the majority.

The number of babies born outside marriage is now higher than the number born to married couples in several European countries, figures show.

In 2016, 43 per cent of children across the EU’s 27 countries were born to unmarried mothers, according to the EU statistics arm Eurostat.

But in eight countries, including France, the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden and Portugal, more than half of women give birth outside of marriage.

It comes after figures last month showed British births outside marriage had reached a record level.

Hopefully you are not one of the illegitimate children. :roflmao:
Here we go again. Our resident useful idiot has - yet again comes up with another bizarre theories. In an average Muslim family, One man sires 20 - 24 children (4 wives, each having 4-6 piglets), the man doesn't even remembers the name of all his children, or from which vagina they had squeezed out into this world.

Come on SAM how many brothers / sisters :stretcher: or half brothers or sister do you have. 15, or 20 - you probably lost count.

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Hombre
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Re: SAM explains Islam

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SAM wrote:save what your right hands own, of captured [slave] girls, whom you may have sexual intercourse with,
https://quranx.com/Tafsirs/4.24" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It sounds like instructing the Muslim men to masturbate before he has sex with captured girls.
Considering its source - it does make little sense as other edicts in Islam.

antineoETC
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Re: Islam in England.

Post by antineoETC »

SAM wrote:I don’t see a statement that Muslim men are "permitted" to have extramarital sex...
Let me try the question another way. Does Allah require a Muslim man to marry a "right hand possession" before he can have sex with her? Yes or No.
It is in the nature of wasp nests that some of their inhabitants are bound to sting someone. The closer you are to are to a wasp nest the more likely you are to get stung, sometimes fatally. Who would encourage wasps to establish a nest in their house?

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SAM
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Re: Islam in England.

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antineoETC wrote:
SAM wrote:I don’t see a statement that Muslim men are "permitted" to have extramarital sex...
Let me try the question another way. Does Allah require a Muslim man to marry a "right hand possession" before he can have sex with her? Yes or No.
Let me ask you again...Where a statement in the Quran says that Muslim men or women are "permitted" to have extramarital sex?


Sex outside of marriage is one of the clearest, unquestionable prohibitions in Christianity. But white Christians believe that all forms of sex outside of marriage are not wrong.

In the Bible (Exodus 20:14) “You shall not commit adultery.
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

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manfred
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Re: SAM explains Islam

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A simple question SAM.... are "right hand possessions" wives? The obfuscating you are attempting speaks volumes. What the QUr;an says and what is means really is very clear.... It seems you are ashamed of it, which goes to your credit.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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SAM
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Re: SAM explains Islam

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manfred wrote:A simple question SAM.... are "right hand possessions" wives? The obfuscating you are attempting speaks volumes. What the QUr;an says and what is means really is very clear.... It seems you are ashamed of it, which goes to your credit.
Stupid question get stupid answer.. :lol:
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
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manfred
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Re: SAM explains Islam

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A question you are embarrassed to address is not "stupid". It has a simple yes or no answer. Are "right hand possessions" wives?

And when Mohammed murdered the head of the Quraiza, and he forced himself on his widow that same night, is that "marriage"?

Personal abuse gets deleted, as do diversions. Answer that question.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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SAM
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Re: SAM explains Islam

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You try to use Jalal's translation of quranic verses (cut and paste) to verify it and to express it clearly: it's actually a sex slave, but ignoring what is written with another translation...
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

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manfred
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Re: SAM explains Islam

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You are trying to divert attention away from the question by highlighting the irrelevant sections of texts, the parts speaking about marriage, when "right hand possessions" are an EXCEPTION to marriage in all the texts, including the Qur'an.

So why can you not answer some straight questions, without getting rude?
Are "right hand possessions" wives?
Did Mohammed marry the widow of the head of the Quraiza? They were madly in love, were they?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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SAM
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Born out of wedlock

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NEW YORK: Of the world’s 140 million births that happened in 2016, about 15 percent - or 21 million – were born out of wedlock. Most countries in North Africa and Western and Southern Asia, where the proportion of births out of wedlock is low, typically less than 1 percent.

In striking contrast, the proportions of births outside marriage in another 25 (Christian) countries mostly in Latin America, including Brazil, Chile, Costa Rica, Jamaica, Mexico and Colombia, are estimated at more than 60 percent. In another 20 countries, including Belgium, Denmark, France, Norway and Sweden, the majority of births occur outside marriage, with government assistance typically provided to single mothers.


Without illegitimate Christian children, the number of Christians is less than the Islamic population.
Last edited by SAM on Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:32 am, edited 3 times in total.
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

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manfred
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Re: SAM explains Islam

Post by manfred »

Are "right hand possessions" wives?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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manfred
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Re: SAM explains Islam

Post by manfred »

I can understand your embarrassment, but abusing those who ask questions is not changing what Mohammed did or said.

Are "right hand possessions" wives?


Here is some more about that for you to ponder: (no comment from me, just as it is..)

'Amr b. Shu'aib on his father's authority said that his grandfather reported:

The Prophet (ﷺ) decided regarding one who was treated as a member of a family after the death of his father, to whom he was attributed when the heirs said he was one of them, that if he was the child of a slave-woman whom the father owned when he had intercourse with her, he was included among those who sought his inclusion, but received none of the inheritance which was previously divided; he, however, received his portion of the inheritance which had not already been divided; but if the father to whom he was attributed had disowned him, he was not joined to the heirs.
If he was a child of a slave-woman whom the father did not possess or of a free woman with whom he had illicit intercourse, he was not joined to the heirs and did not inherit even if the one to whom he was attributed is the one who claimed paternity, since he was a child of fornication whether his mother was free or a slave.
Sunan Abu Dawud 12:2258
It was narrated from Anas, that the Messenger of Allah had a female slave with whom he had intercourse, but 'Aishah and Hafsah would not leave him alone until he said that she was forbidden for him. Then Allah, the Mighty and Sublime, revealed: "O Prophet! Why do you forbid (for yourself) that which Allah has allowed to you.' until the end of the Verse.
Sunan an-Nasa'i 4:36:3411
It's this verse:
O Prophet! Why holdest thou to be forbidden that which Allah has made lawful to thee? Thou seekest to please thy consorts. But Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Qur'an 66:1

Interestingly, Mohammed also expressed the view that sex with one's OWN slave girls is quite OK, even forced sex, but sex with YOUR wives' slave girls is not... That did not prevent Mohammed though from cheating on Hafsa with her slave girl... As often, Mohammed's own rules do not apply to him.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

antineoETC
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Re: Islam in England.

Post by antineoETC »

SAM wrote:Let me ask you again...Where a statement in the Quran says that Muslim men or women are "permitted" to have extramarital sex?
You're the expert SAM. I am asking you lend me your expertise to clarify the meaning of Qur'anic references to "Right Hand Possessions". Take 4:24:

And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess.

Does this mean that Muslim men are permitted:

a) to Marry already-married Right Hand possessions and then have sex with them.
b) to have sex with already-married Right Hand possessions whether they are married to them or not.
c) Both of the above
?

BTW, how does a Muslim man come to possess a "Right Hand Possession (RHP)? For instance, if a Syrian Muslim asylum seeker is wandering through, say, Hamburg and he sees a native German woman he likes the look of how would he go about making her his RHP? Would he approach her and say something like: "Would you consent to be my Right Hand Possession and come and live with me and enjoy a purely platonic non-sexual relationship where we can discuss algebra and philosophy"? Is that the normal Islamic procedure?
It is in the nature of wasp nests that some of their inhabitants are bound to sting someone. The closer you are to are to a wasp nest the more likely you are to get stung, sometimes fatally. Who would encourage wasps to establish a nest in their house?

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SAM
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Re: Islam in England.

Post by SAM »

antineoETC wrote:
SAM wrote:Let me ask you again...Where a statement in the Quran says that Muslim men or women are "permitted" to have extramarital sex?
You're the expert SAM. I am asking you lend me your expertise to clarify the meaning of Qur'anic references to "Right Hand Possessions". Take 4:24:

And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess.

Does this mean that Muslim men are permitted:

a) to Marry already-married Right Hand possessions and then have sex with them.
b) to have sex with already-married Right Hand possessions whether they are married to them or not.
c) Both of the above
?

BTW, how does a Muslim man come to possess a "Right Hand Possession (RHP)? For instance, if a Syrian Muslim asylum seeker is wandering through, say, Hamburg and he sees a native German woman he likes the look of how would he go about making her his RHP? Would he approach her and say something like: "Would you consent to be my Right Hand Possession and come and live with me and enjoy a purely platonic non-sexual relationship where we can discuss algebra and philosophy"? Is that the normal Islamic procedure?
Where a statement in the Quran verses 4:24-25 says that Muslim men or women are "permitted" to have extramarital sex?

Still waiting your answer..
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

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manfred
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Re: SAM explains Islam

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Please read the verse, SAM.... Married or not, it says that Muslim men may have sex with SLAVES who belong to them, even if they have a husband. That is what it says. And that is also what Mohammed did. That is also what the hadith explain and the two Jalal say.

So stop the tap dance and try to offer a reply, if you have one.

Did you have sex outside marriage SAM? You were specially proud of the many "conquests" you told us about .... When you were doing that, was that against Islam or with the blessing of Mohammed?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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manfred
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Re: SAM explains Islam

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Various rants to one side, SAM, do you want to comment on the questions asked? If not, say, no, that is fine too.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

antineoETC
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Re: Islam in England.

Post by antineoETC »

SAM wrote:Where a statement in the Quran verses 4:24-25 says that Muslim men or women are "permitted" to have extramarital sex?

Still waiting your answer..
SAM Qur'an verses 23:5-6 describes "believers" as they:



who guard their private parts Except from their wives or those their right hands possess, for indeed, they will not be blamed -

This passage makes a distinction between wives - ie women to whom the Muslim is married - and "Right Hand Possessions". Again, please clarify: is the Right Hand Possession from whom the Muslim is not required to "guard his private parts" joined with the Muslim in some kind of marriage contract or is she not?
It is in the nature of wasp nests that some of their inhabitants are bound to sting someone. The closer you are to are to a wasp nest the more likely you are to get stung, sometimes fatally. Who would encourage wasps to establish a nest in their house?

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