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curious

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:00 am
by manfred
Is it true what I heard today? I thought I was hilarious....

Apparently, close to almost every larger mosque in Pakistan you find, of all things a second hand shoe shop...

:lotpot:

Re: curious

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:13 pm
by Fernando
Not surprising - worshippers must smetimes be unable to find their shoes after prayers.
Image
and need a spare pair urgently. Sometimes, shock horror, shoes might have been stolen too.
What to do if your shoes got stolen at the mosque?
....Nothing really to do. It has happened to me many times. I also had coats stolen and even had my wallet stolen during Jummah prayers a few times, right out of my pocket.
... it has happened to me! but then it was in Mecca and i guess those things happen there.... i got those flat rubber slippers from the ladies around the corner selling them.. i missed mine. :( but then what can you do? i got a new pair when i came back home.
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080227090355AAxQHpd&guccounter=1

Re: curious

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:00 pm
by Eagle
Funny.

As a side note it is interesting to note the manner in which God instilled an etiquette of humility when about to communicate with the divine, that would later forever be perpetuated. God, as He was about to impart divine wisdom, prophecy, miracles to Musa told him to be aware of the sacredness of his surrounding and humble himself by taking off his sandals 20:12"Surely I am your Lord, therefore put off your shoes; surely you are in the sacred valley, Tuwa". As stated in the HB Ex3:5"Do not draw near here. Take your shoes of your feet, because the soil upon which you stand is holy soil".

Re: curious

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:22 pm
by manfred
Eagle, so Muslims take off their shoes because of a passage from Exodus, the text they call "corrupt"?

Did Mohammed pray with his shoes on or off? Or did it vary?

And when he did take them off, did he say others should also do that? Or did he say something different?

Re: curious

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:19 pm
by Eagle
The corruption of the past scriptures isnt absolute and neither does the Quran say so. The Quran makes the observable, historical reality that they are an amalgam of truth and falsehood. The Quran is also called muhaymin/guardian and furqan/criterion because it is the only means and hope by which the people of the book can discern truth from wrong in their scriptures.

Muslims take their shoes off because they emulate their prophet who preserved the way of his predecessors.

Of course the law isnt rigid, and has a spirit, like every divine ordinance, hence the prophet Muhammad's flexibility in the matter.

Re: curious

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:38 pm
by Takeiteasynow
Eagle wrote:
20:12"Surely I am your Lord, therefore put off your shoes; surely you are in the sacred valley, Tuwa"


Very interesting. The hadith associates sandals and shoes with Musa (Moses) and a precise location.

"Why have you taken off your sandals? Perhaps you have interpreted this ayat, 'Remove your sandals. You are in the pure valley of Tuwa?' (Sura 20 ayat 12) Do you know what the sandals of Musa were?"


And then provides the precise location:
Ibn `Umar used to spend the night at Dhi-Tuwa in between the two Thaniyas and then he would enter Mecca through the Thaniya which is at the higher region of Mecca,


That is, according to Dan Gibson's data model, in Wadi Musa or the valley of Moses which has two Thaniyas connecting it with Petra. It is the precise location where Moses passed through the valley and struck water from the rock for his followers at the site of Ain Musa (Moses's water spring).

The root of tw resolves in Hebrew and Imperial Aramaic to "bow down deeply".

Another piece of the original Haij resolved!

Re: curious

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:33 pm
by manfred
Eagle wrote:The corruption of the past scriptures isnt absolute and neither does the Quran say so. The Quran makes the observable, historical reality that they are an amalgam of truth and falsehood. The Quran is also called muhaymin/guardian and furqan/criterion because it is the only means and hope by which the people of the book can discern truth from wrong in their scriptures.

Muslims take their shoes off because they emulate their prophet who preserved the way of his predecessors.

Of course the law isnt rigid, and has a spirit, like every divine ordinance, hence the prophet Muhammad's flexibility in the matter.


Well, let's have a quick look.
Anas ibn Maalik (may Allaah be pleased with him) was asked, “Did the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) pray wearing shoes?” He said, “Yes.” (al-Bukhaari, 386; Muslim, 555)


So Mohammed prayed with his shoes on, generally.

But here is an occasion he did not:

“While the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was leading his companions in prayer, he took off his shoes and placed them to his left. When the people saw that, they took off their shoes too. When the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) finished his prayer, he asked, ‘What made you take off your shoes?’ They said, ‘We saw you take off your shoes, so we took ours off too.’ The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, ‘Jibreel (peace be upon him) came to me and told me that there was something dirty on them.’ When any one of you comes to the mosque, let him look and if he sees anything dirty on his shoes, let him wipe them and then pray in them.” (Abu Dawood, 650; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood, 605).


Note he expressly challenges others copying that behaviour. Apparently he only did this on a specific occasion for a reason he gave.

In fact, he also gave A GENERAL ruling on this. Whatever the Jews do, do something else.
“Be different from the Jews, who do not pray in their shoes or in their leather slippers (khufoof).” (Abu Dawood, 652; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood, 607)


This is actually inaccurate and something Mohammed did not quite investigate it enough. Jews generally pray wearing shoes. There are some exceptions though, a priest making a blessing, for example, a man or woman in mourning, and on Yom Kippur, plus one or two others, depending on which Jewsih people you ask.

So the tradition form Muslims to pray generally without shoes does not come from Judaism, nor from Mohammed, really.

Do you know the origin?

Re: curious

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:03 pm
by SAM
Takeiteasynow wrote:Eagle wrote:
20:12"Surely I am your Lord, therefore put off your shoes; surely you are in the sacred valley, Tuwa"


Very interesting. The hadith associates sandals and shoes with Musa (Moses) and a precise location.

"Why have you taken off your sandals? Perhaps you have interpreted this ayat, 'Remove your sandals. You are in the pure valley of Tuwa?' (Sura 20 ayat 12) Do you know what the sandals of Musa were?"


And then provides the precise location:
Ibn `Umar used to spend the night at Dhi-Tuwa in between the two Thaniyas and then he would enter Mecca through the Thaniya which is at the higher region of Mecca,


That is, according to Dan Gibson's data model, in Wadi Musa or the valley of Moses which has two Thaniyas connecting it with Petra. It is the precise location where Moses passed through the valley and struck water from the rock for his followers at the site of Ain Musa (Moses's water spring).

The root of tw resolves in Hebrew and Imperial Aramaic to "bow down deeply".

Another piece of the original Haij resolved!
You are so obsessed with Petra. :lol:

Re: curious

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:21 pm
by Takeiteasynow
You are so obsessed with Petra.


Tssk. This was only 5 minutes work and yet there are numerous more leads about Tuwa in the hadith which I shall address in a new post. But it is also a systematical approach to collect as much circumstantial evidence as possible. Many topics are usable, from 'Colored mountains' (yours) to shoes.

So right now I am anticipating new topics. How about socks or shirts? I am sure Manfred can frame these into a theological debate. :smartass:

Re: curious

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:40 pm
by SAM
Takeiteasynow wrote:
You are so obsessed with Petra.


Tssk. This was only 5 minutes work and yet there are numerous more leads about Tuwa in the hadith which I shall address in a new post. But it is also a systematical approach to collect as much circumstantial evidence as possible. Many topics are usable, from 'Colored mountains' (yours) to shoes.

So right now I am anticipating new topics. How about socks or shirts? I am sure Manfred can frame these into a theological debate. :smartass:
Most important is the Kaaba. It is the mother's place of all religions.

Is the Kaaba located in Mecca or Petra?

Re: curious

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:54 pm
by Takeiteasynow
SAM wrote:
Takeiteasynow wrote:
You are so obsessed with Petra.


Tssk. This was only 5 minutes work and yet there are numerous more leads about Tuwa in the hadith which I shall address in a new post. But it is also a systematical approach to collect as much circumstantial evidence as possible. Many topics are usable, from 'Colored mountains' (yours) to shoes.

So right now I am anticipating new topics. How about socks or shirts? I am sure Manfred can frame these into a theological debate. :smartass:
Most important is the Kaaba. It is the mother's place of all religions.

Is the Kaaba located in Mecca or Petra?


I never thought so but indeed, it seems that there is a mother's place of all religions, starting from 1700 BC, after a meteor destroyed cities now known as Sodom and Gomorrah, next to the Sea of Galilee. All Quranic locations resolve in Imperial Aramaic so most likely it is Petra. But there is no conclusive evidence yet as alternative theories need to be eliminated. But there are two locations in the central Haram of Petra with the exact measurements mentioned in the hadith. Work in progress.

Re: curious

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:05 pm
by SAM
Takeiteasynow wrote:
SAM wrote: Most important is the Kaaba. It is the mother's place of all religions.

Is the Kaaba located in Mecca or Petra?


I never thought so but indeed, it seems that there is a mother's place of all religions, starting from 1700 BC, after a meteor destroyed cities now known as Sodom and Gomorrah, next to the Sea of Galilee. All Quranic locations resolve in Imperial Aramaic so most likely it is Petra. But there is no conclusive evidence yet as alternative theories need to be eliminated. But there are two locations in the central Haram of Petra with the exact measurements mentioned in the hadith. Work in progress.


Which religion existed before the Kaaba was built? :coffee:

Re: curious

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:17 pm
by Takeiteasynow
Well some kind of Proto-Semitic religion or polytheistic religions of the Semitic peoples. But after the Ka'ba was built it wasn't that much better. :whistling:

Re: curious

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:18 pm
by manfred
Oh SAM.... As according to the Qur'an Allah actually PRAYS, he has a religion. Which one?

And did Allah convert/invent/ join that religion before or after Abraham or whoever built this Kaaba thing?

Finally did you know that "Kaaba" is a horrible chocolate drink you can get in German supermarkets?

And eagle, is a mosque "holy ground"? What makes is so, if you answer is yes.

Re: curious

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:50 am
by Hombre
manfred wrote:Eagle, so Muslims take off their shoes because of a passage from Exodus, the text they call "corrupt"?

Did Mohammed pray with his shoes on or off? Or did it vary?

And when he did take them off, did he say others should also do that? Or did he say something different?
Imagine during his days what would have happened if someone stole Muhammad's sandals as a souvenir.?

Re: curious

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:59 am
by Hombre
Eagle wrote:The corruption of the past scriptures isnt absolute and neither does the Quran say so. The Quran makes the observable, historical reality that they are an amalgam of truth and falsehood. The Quran is also called muhaymin/guardian and furqan/criterion because it is the only means and hope by which the people of the book can discern truth from wrong in their scriptures.
So it seem tacitly you do admit that, those "old scriptures" do serve a guiding path to the Quran itself.

Muslims take their shoes off because they emulate their prophet who preserved the way of his predecessors.

Of course the law isnt rigid, and has a spirit, like every divine ordinance, hence the prophet Muhammad's flexibility in the matter.
"Predecessors" means only one thing - Jews & Christian prophets. Moreover, it does take a form of flexibility by someone when he / she repeats ritual practiced by others hundred or even thousands of years earlier.

Re: curious

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:35 am
by Hombre
Takeiteasynow wrote:I never thought so but indeed, it seems that there is a mother's place of all religions, starting from 1700 BC, after a meteor destroyed cities now known as Sodom and Gomorrah, next to the Sea of Galilee. All Quranic locations resolve in Imperial Aramaic so most likely it is Petra. But there is no conclusive evidence yet as alternative theories need to be eliminated. But there are two locations in the central Haram of Petra with the exact measurements mentioned in the hadith. Work in progress.
You mean next to the Dead Sea which indeed it is close to Petra.

Re: curious

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:45 am
by Hombre
SAM wrote:Which religion existed before the Kaaba was built? :coffee:
Before the Qa'aba was built, it was the Zoroastrian, then Judea, then Christianity. After it was bult it was used to house which housed 360 pagan gods and served as central place to Pagan worshipers - until Uncle Muhammad came a chick-teak :whipper: declared it is the site holiest to Islam.

Re: curious

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:08 am
by SAM
Takeiteasynow wrote:Well some kind of Proto-Semitic religion or polytheistic religions of the Semitic peoples. But after the Ka'ba was built it wasn't that much better. :whistling:
Proto-Semitic, Animistic, Paganism, and Polytheistic (Buddhism and Hinduism) are not religions. It is worship or belief in various deities, which are usually their own cultural rituals.

When Abraham was in Mecca instead of Petra, why he wanted his followers to be obliged to circumambulate the Kaaba. This practice was continued by Ishmael to his sons.

Re: curious

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:09 am
by manfred
hombre wrote:Imagine during his days what would have happened if someone stole Muhammad's sandals as a souvenir.?


:drool: Ahhhh! That explains it. That is why Mohammed did not leave his shoes outside, but carefully placed them next to himself to keep one eye on his men and the other on his shoes.