curious

Prove Islam is from God, why it is the 'One True Religion'.
Eagle
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Re: curious

Post by Eagle »

manfred wrote:
"You shall be holy, for I, the Lord, your God, am holy"
That is a rather profound statement from the priest who wrote this part of Leviticus. God created man, and that gives him the destiny to be "holy", close to God. Man can become is one sense LIKE God, and that is the true purpose of man. Man, the last creation, the special being with the ability and destiny to be almost "god like".

Now, eagle, how is such an incredible thing achieved? How should a man embark on that journey back to God, the path to "holiness"?

There are many answers given to that, and many paths all leading to the same destination.

But of all those answers, the idea of that holiness is achieved by washing your feet, face and hands on a specific way has to be the most ridiculous. Holiness is not related to magic.
42:11"there is nothing like a likeness of Him"
meaning God is not only above all material limitations, but even above the limitation of metaphor. This also carries the meaning that even the "how" of His being different than the rest of creation is beyond the category of human thought. Similar principles are stated in the HB by the prophets Jeremiah and Isaiah Jer10:6,Isa40:18.

Pure monotheism denies the notion of being God like in anyway.

How is holiness, righteousness achieved? There is no mystery nor secrets. By firstly integrating one's position as not more than a servant of the Creator in constant need of his physical and spiritual sustenance, and the ultimate form in which this is manifested is by accepting the revealed law, in letter and in spirit, not by inventing one's own convenient rules and irrelevant mysticisms.

We've discussed in another thread the Quranic concept of ingrained spiritual guidance, making one capable of deducing the existence of a Creator by the signs in nature and the universe, as well as recognizing the basic moral requirements of that Creator.
When one uses this faculty correctly, in the absence of external guidance (revelations) he will remain yearning and feeling lost despite his awareness in those fundamental principles, ineffective in his search for an explicit guidance to know his obligations, how he should discharge them, how he should direct all possible aspects of his life in total subservience to God. Such person remains wandering in perplexity in search of the truth until he is shown the utlimate and precise manner in which his Creator is to be served
12:3,42:52,93:6-7"Did He not find you an orphan and gave you shelter? And found you lost and guided you?".
It is important to note here it doesnt speak of being lost from the straight path. One can be on the straight path all the while yearning and unsuccesfully looking for the best and ultimate way to progress on it, until it is shown explicitly. The difference between a prophet and philosopher is that the former, after seclusion and deep insight gets the truth and wisdom from God whereas the latter arrives to a glimpse of it or sometimes falls short of it by himself.

Consequently, we find that the books of ancient philosophers, and of those that developped their theories after them, could not stand the test of subsequent criticisim, resulting either in exposing flaws or entirely discrediting their lines of thought. As to the branch of philosophy that claims to investigate the realm of metaphysics through rational thought, the Quran categorically denies these attempts since it states that the concepts of God, Hereafter and revelation are parts of the knowledge of the unseen/ghayb, meaning beyond the reach of human perception. That knowledge is only imparted through revelation and thus all true metaphysical endeavors depend on it.

Although the Quran continuously encourages humanity to inquire into and reflect upon the visible world to aqcuire knowledge, and understand through it the rational need for the resurrection, judgement and hereafter (the "signs" not pointing to "islam" but to the aforementioned concepts, often spoken about and derided by those, including in this forum who do not perceive their purpose), in the case of knowledge of the unseen, it aims to guide the individuals during that process
96:4-5"He taught mankind that which they did not know".
Any philosphy that is not guided is in great error when dealing with the metaphysical realm, a realm transcending our sense-experience, making its direct intuition or experience impossible.

That condition the prophet was in, of seclusion and desperate seeking of the truth, as well as God's remedies to his concerns, inner questions and difficulties, is captured in sura duha and sharh. So, just as God, in answer to Ibrahim and Ismail's prayers, showed them the manner in which they and those after them should engage in worshipping Him 2:124-131, as was done to Adam who was taught the manner in which to invoke God and seek forgiveness 2:37,7:23,20:122 God showed the true rituals to Muhammad in answer to his spiritual quest, restoring them to their true form and purpose after they had been disfigured with time.

There is a lesson of humility, for a servant to reverently ask his master for the best way to please him, as Ibrahim asked his Lord, and to not be self-conceited in thinking that one knows best how to outwardly behave when addressing the Lord of creation just as one wouldnt disrespect the basic conduct to have when facing a mere wordly ruler. The form of a ritual is just as important as the sincerity in its execution.

Eagle
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Re: curious

Post by Eagle »

Hombre wrote:
SAM wrote:When Abraham was in Mecca instead of Petra, why he wanted his followers to be obliged to circumambulate the Kaaba. This practice was continued by Ishmael to his sons.
Are you going to cut the crap or not?. Abraham had lived in city of Ur is located in the lash area of southern Mesopotamia in toda's Iraq.

The distance between Ur & Mekkah is more then 1500km (900 miles) separated by vast desert with average temperature range between 30-48C. To cross that land he would have needed vast supply of water & food for his massive heard of sheep, and his family over a period of 3 months. It is inconceivable he could do that. Beside why the hell any rational person would leave his lush region with plenty of food for him and his flock to wonder this inhospitable desert.

If you believe in this nonsense then - you are just a certified idiot as the rest of them. I started to believe you would have some grain of wisdom in your little scull - now I realize you are just as dumb & remain mamzer - no different then the rest of those Islamist.
Ibrahim didnt travel from Ur to Mecca, but from Canaan to Mecca.
From the beginning as he set himself out of his native area, Ibrahim travelled distances surpassing the Beerseba-Mecca distance. It was nothing out of the ordinary for frequent travelers, nomads, or traders to undergo 20 or 30 days journeys even in harsh terrains, so why would it be the case for an obedient servant of God whom Judeo-Christian tradition itself admits he was so submissive in his obedience that he set out to sacrifice his son to God.
His travels, they happened by foot, donkey's back, and he made many stops along the way, pitching his tent, building worship sites and altars, with a "corner stone", a practice that continued among his descendants. He used a donkey, not a camel as he went to prepare the sacrifice of "the only son" Gen22. It is also to be noted that to the ancient, town-dwelling Hebrews the term "wilderness of Beersheba" comprised all the desert regions south of Palestine, including the Hijaz.

frankie
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Re: curious

Post by frankie »

Eagle


Abraham eventually settled in present day Israel, and is buried there along with his wife and other patriarchs. His tomb in Hebron is revered by Jews, Christians and Muslims alike.

There is no such tomb in Arabia, because Abraham never set foot there, if he had done so, he would have also been buried there.

The Kaaba was built by pagans for pagans, it has therefore still no relevance to either Jews or Christians, only to Muslims.

Mohammed was born a pagan and died a pagan, proved by his father's name Abdullah ibn Abdul-Muttalib denoting he was a slave of Allah.

This Allah became the god of Islam, held together with the pre-Islamic pagan practices of Hajj, Ramadan and the veneration of a stone, still performed by Muslims today.

Your faith is proved to be repackaged Arabian paganism, made to appear an Abrahamic faith, which by its own admissions, proves it is not.

http://wathanism.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The tawaf ritual was performed both during the pilgrimage to a shrine (Hajj) or in home worship. In the home, the household would set up a baetyl and circumambulate it seven times whilst uttering the talbiyah invocation: seven being a mystical number to the pagan Arabs as it was significant of the seven planets. Reportedly, the pagan Arabs would perform the tawaf naked as they refused to approach their gods in the clothes they had sinned in although from an Islamic point of view, this practice was seen as blasphemous and disrespectful and as a prime example of pre-Islamic ignorance or jahiliyyah.

The Hajj is a pilgrimage to the Ka'aba in Mecca, the holiest site in the Islamic world. This ritual however is truly pre-Islamic, when tribes all across the Arabian peninsula would forget their tribal feuding and converge upon the city for worship and trade. This practice originated amongst the pagan Arabs but was not exclusive to them, as Christian and Jewish tribes would also join the pagans in festivities, trading of goods and worship. The pagans of Mecca even included images of Mary, Jesus and Abraham in the Ka'aba to attract the attention of the other faiths, displaying that Christianity and Judaism in pre-Islamic Arabia often enjoyed a syncretic relationship with the native polytheistic animism of the region. It is noted too, that the pagan Arabs would shave their heads whilst on the hajj to the various shrines near Mecca and Yathrib.

The talbiyah ritual was carried through into Islam as part of the Muslim hajj, although any references to polytheism were removed. The god Allah was considered to be the benevolent creator by the pagan Arabs and was believed to be remote, distant and inaccessible to the everyday man and woman; so other deities were called upon to intercede for Him or bring the worshiper closer to Him. The concept of shafā'a, that is, gods and goddesses interceding on behalf of Allah, is reflected especially in the myriad talbiyah that were chanted by the Quraysh and other Arab tribes as they circumambulated the Ka'aba, going as:

'Wa'l-Lāt-a wa'l Uzzā, wa Manāt-a al-thalithāta al-'ukhrā, Tilk al-gharāniq al-'ulā, wa inna shafā'ata-hunna la-turtajā.'

In English:

'By al-Lāt and al-'Uzzā, and Manāt, the third goddess, the other; Verily they are the most exalted cranes, and their intercession is to be hoped for.''

The talbiyah of the tribe of Banu Thaqif who lived in Ta'if, not far from Mecca, proclaimed Allah to be be superior to their tribal goddesses al-Lāt and al-'Uzzā; the verse going as:

'Uzzāhumu wa'l-Lātu fi yadayka, Dānat laka al-asnāmu ta'ziman ilayka, Qad adh'anat bi silmihā ilayka.'

Translated as:

'Al-'Uzzā and al-Lāt are in thy hands, Allāh; the idols submit to thee by glorifying thee; they approach thee submissively in devotion.'

Baetyls are sacred objects in pre-Islamic Arabian religion; occurring usually as an oddly shaped stone, uncut block, rock formation or meteorite which the Arabs and other Semitic peoples believed was inhabited by a jinn or a deity. This form of animism has even survived in modern Islam with the Black Stone of Mecca although the mythology of the stone has become Islamized. To the pagan Arabians, these objects were known interchangeably as nusub ( pl. ansab), simply meaning "stone" or Baytu-Ilah, meaning "House of the Deity". Contrary to later Islamic belief, worship was not directed to the physical object itself, but to the god or spirit believed to inhabit it. The Semites of Palestine and Syria knew these objects as Beth-El, introducing them to the Greeks and Romans as Baetylus.

According to Abu al-Mundhir, every household in the city of Mecca had their own household deity that was usually represented by a baetyl, and before they set out on a journey for example, the last act a family member would perform was to touch the baetyl in order to insure a safe and auspicious journey: when the family member returned from their journey, the first thing they would do was kiss or touch the baetyl in gratitude for a propitious return. It was not uncommon for the richer Meccan families to own an idol in the form of a statue made of wood or metal (sanam); or an image made of stone (wathan), but this was not always the case. In pre-Islamic Mecca, a group of women called the sayyida were responsible for weaving and renewing the cloths that adorned the idols and baetyls of the Ka'aba.

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manfred
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Re: curious

Post by manfred »

well eagle, all I can say about your comment is that is shows very eloquently that Islam is not an "Abrabrahamic" religion as it soundly rejects the basic tenets of Judaism, as well as Christianity.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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SAM
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Re: curious

Post by SAM »

Takeiteasynow wrote: Well, because you asked so nicely I did some research. Apparently Abraham used to work as a creative director for the Ministry of Silly Walks at Ur. Unfortunately his counter clockwise circumambulation technique was seen as innovation (bidah) so he was kicked out of town. Then Abraham traveled to Edom where he met some desert nomads who rocked around a fresh rock, send down by heaven in a blaze of fire and destruction. Abraham convinced them to try his technique and ever since they rocked around and against the clock.

The following Thamudic scroll, dedicated to 'Al B. Halaley' explains more:
When our Imam claims five, six, and seven
We'll be right in Allah's seventh heaven.
We're gonna encircle around the rock tonight
Seven times until broad daylight
We' will encircle Allah's rock against the clock tonight.
:lol: Don't guessing...Takeiteasynow.

And they have no knowledge thereof. They follow but a guess, and lo! a guess can never take the place of the truth. [Quran 53:28]
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

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manfred
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Re: curious

Post by manfred »

a guess can never take the place of the truth.
Not even if you guessed the truth?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Eagle
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Re: curious

Post by Eagle »

manfred wrote:well eagle, all I can say about your comment is that is shows very eloquently that Islam is not an "Abrabrahamic" religion as it soundly rejects the basic tenets of Judaism, as well as Christianity.
Being in God's image simply means in the HB (which also contains the notion that nothing is like unto Him, as referenced in the previous post) to reflect God's attributes in some way. For example man has the ability to create but in reality he is only reshaping what God previously created. He can judge, be good, show mercy but not and never "like" God does. Further and according to the interpolated HB, when man ate from the tree of the knowledge of good an evil, man "became like one of us", against God's will and desire. According to the Quran, God "breathed into man of his spirit" and in sura Shams, defines it as "He inspired the soul with the knowledge of evil and good", meaning he was meant to "become like us". The HB still contains elements of this reality when it states that man was created in the "image of God". Some prefer interpreting the notion as, the image isnt refering to God's being or attributes, but to an image He saw of each and everyone of us.

As was said; pure monotheism.

Islam isnt a continuation of what the followers of their respective prophets later named "christianity" or "judaism". It is the continuation of the purest form of willful servitude to the one God, characterizing itself with the unadultered, timeless message it upholds, which was transmitted to mankind since Adam. This timeless message being, as condensed in 98:5, a cognition of God's oneness and uniqueness and, implicitly, of man's responsibility to Him; a turning-away from all false concepts that compromise God's attributes, all over-estimation of oneself, and superstitions, with a great emphasis on kindness and charity towards all of God's creatures indiscriminately.
The Quran came to preserve and revive these concepts majoritarily abandonned and modified with time, as is easily seen through a cursory reading of what survived from the previous scriptures.
Even Judaism nowadays cannot but admit that Islam, which they believe to be the manifestation of God's promise of blessings to Ishmael, is the only religion along with Noachidsm (the system revealed to, and taught by Noah, as alluded to in the Quran 42:13) that can earn non-Jews success in the hereafter, because they see in both of these "gentile religions" a complete compatibility with the universal spiritual principles revealed prior to Moses and the mosaic law (which is exclusively binding on Jews).

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manfred
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Re: curious

Post by manfred »

eagle, you are kidding right? no superstitions in Islam? :lotpot:

Islam is a hodgepodge of religious and other traditions all collected for a political aim: to make Mohammed rich and powerful. It is not a religion in the strict sense at all, it is a political ideology, totalitarian in nature, with a cheap, increasingly flaky, religious varnish.

It's teachings are often based on specific needs of Mohammed, and as these needs change, so do the teachings.

Islam is full of superstitious nonsense, wudu being an example mentioned recently.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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Hombre
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Re: curious

Post by Hombre »

Eagle wrote:Ibrahim didnt travel from Ur to Mecca, but from Canaan to Mecca.
From the beginning as he set himself out of his native area, Ibrahim travelled distances surpassing the Beerseba-Mecca distance. It was nothing out of the ordinary for frequent travelers, nomads, or traders to undergo 20 or 30 days journeys even in harsh terrains, so why would it be the case for an obedient servant of God whom Judeo-Christian tradition itself admits he was so submissive in his obedience that he set out to sacrifice his son to God.
His travels, they happened by foot, donkey's back, and he made many stops along the way, pitching his tent, building worship sites and altars, with a "corner stone", a practice that continued among his descendants. He used a donkey, not a camel as he went to prepare the sacrifice of "the only son" Gen22. It is also to be noted that to the ancient, town-dwelling Hebrews the term "wilderness of Beersheba" comprised all the desert regions south of Palestine, including the Hijaz.
Here is a simple litmus test. which conclusively prove Abraham never been in Mekkah - nor ever came near the Ka'aba.
a) Abraham had lived some 2000 years before Islam was born.
b) After seeing his own father warship stone idols - he destroyed them, and propagated the concept of one god which is the foundation of Judaism & Christianity..
c) Every official Islamic literature assert that before Muhammad came alone - the Ka'aba STILL was a house of 360 idols to local pagan worshipers. Same idols which Abraham had destroyed in Ur..
d) Had the story of him visiting the Ka'aba been true - he also would have done the same as he did in Ur & destroyed the the idols and institute the same monastic religion right there & then. He didn't.
e) Therefore, if Muslims assertion of Abaraham is true - by the time Muhammad had arrived at the scene - Mekkah should have been also a house of a single god. We all know that is not the case. which leads to conclusion that, Muhammad is the one who should be credited for copying Abraham's deeds.

I wish those rational & level headed Muslims will come to their senses and learn that 1+1 = 2 and not 20. Invent stories which make no head nor tail - all in an attempt to render Islam as ancient & credible religion as Judea & Christianity

THESE IS THE CORE & KERNEL OF OUR CONFLICT BETWEEN JUDEA / CHRISTIANITY & ISLAM

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Takeiteasynow
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Re: curious

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Sam wrote:
:lol: Don't guessing...Takeiteasynow.

And they have no knowledge thereof. They follow but a guess, and lo! a guess can never take the place of the truth. [Quran 53:28]
Well then tell me, in your own words, why it's so important that Abraham had his followers encircumbulate the (corner)stone. Would God really care about these kind of protocols?
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Takeiteasynow
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Re: curious

Post by Takeiteasynow »

A correction on the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah: a meteoroid blast above Middle-Ghor, circa 1730 BC and northeast of the Dead Sea, does provide a perfect scenario for the hypothesis that S&G are located at the south side of the Dead Sea and were destroyed by heat and an earthquake. Replace earthquake with shock wave and you have a perfect model.

(1) Heat and shock wave at an altitude of circa 3000 feet
(2) Shock wave channeled through the Jordan/Araba valley and the Dead Sea.
(3) Tsunami coming from the north side of the Dead Sea.

And about Abraham: he seems to be associated with Ur - the honorary title "Dhu sar-ra(n)", God of the Haram, can be attested in Sumerian texts from Ur.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

Eagle
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Re: curious

Post by Eagle »

Hombre wrote:
Eagle wrote:Ibrahim didnt travel from Ur to Mecca, but from Canaan to Mecca.
From the beginning as he set himself out of his native area, Ibrahim travelled distances surpassing the Beerseba-Mecca distance. It was nothing out of the ordinary for frequent travelers, nomads, or traders to undergo 20 or 30 days journeys even in harsh terrains, so why would it be the case for an obedient servant of God whom Judeo-Christian tradition itself admits he was so submissive in his obedience that he set out to sacrifice his son to God.
His travels, they happened by foot, donkey's back, and he made many stops along the way, pitching his tent, building worship sites and altars, with a "corner stone", a practice that continued among his descendants. He used a donkey, not a camel as he went to prepare the sacrifice of "the only son" Gen22. It is also to be noted that to the ancient, town-dwelling Hebrews the term "wilderness of Beersheba" comprised all the desert regions south of Palestine, including the Hijaz.
Here is a simple litmus test. which conclusively prove Abraham never been in Mekkah - nor ever came near the Ka'aba.
a) Abraham had lived some 2000 years before Islam was born.
b) After seeing his own father warship stone idols - he destroyed them, and propagated the concept of one god which is the foundation of Judaism & Christianity..
c) Every official Islamic literature assert that before Muhammad came alone - the Ka'aba STILL was a house of 360 idols to local pagan worshipers. Same idols which Abraham had destroyed in Ur..
d) Had the story of him visiting the Ka'aba been true - he also would have done the same as he did in Ur & destroyed the the idols and institute the same monastic religion right there & then. He didn't.
e) Therefore, if Muslims assertion of Abaraham is true - by the time Muhammad had arrived at the scene - Mekkah should have been also a house of a single god. We all know that is not the case. which leads to conclusion that, Muhammad is the one who should be credited for copying Abraham's deeds.

I wish those rational & level headed Muslims will come to their senses and learn that 1+1 = 2 and not 20. Invent stories which make no head nor tail - all in an attempt to render Islam as ancient & credible religion as Judea & Christianity

THESE IS THE CORE & KERNEL OF OUR CONFLICT BETWEEN JUDEA / CHRISTIANITY & ISLAM

a) according to the discarded biblical chronology which places the creation of the universe some 6000 years ago, assuming it to be a divine allegory of the 14billion year old age of the universe, it means that in proportion, Abraham had lived a little less than 5 billion years before Muhammad was born and over a billion years prior to Moses entering Canaan and claiming the land promised to Abraham.
b) After seeing his own father worship stone idols - he destroyed them, and propagated the concept of one god which is the foundation of pure monotheism unlike Judaism's monolatry & Christianity's triune godhead greek mystery.
c) Every official Islamic literature assert that before Muhammad came alone - the Ka'aba STILL was a house of 360 idols to local pagan worshipers, just as the Jerusalrm temple was stacked with images of idols in its history. Same idols which Abraham had destroyed in Ur..
d) Had the story of him visiting the Ka'aba been true - he also would have done the same as he did in Ur & destroyed the the idols and institute the same monastic religion right there & then. And since he isnt responsible for the straying and corruption of those who came after him, neither are David and Solomon responsible for what their successors did with the Jewish religion and sacred sites.
e) Therefore, if Muslims assertion of Abaraham is true - by the time Muhammad had arrived at the scene - Mekkah should have been also a house of a single god. And since even by his time, it was recognized that the Kaaba was the house of Allah the supreme creator and that all other idols were intercessors with him brought in later on, then it means that the assertion in relation to Abraham's connection to the Kaaba is true.

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manfred
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Re: curious

Post by manfred »

just as the Jerusalrm temple was stacked with images of idols in its history.
Eagle, please read up on "tu Quoque" arguments, and why they are a fallacy.

1) Please provide some sources for your claim that the temple in Jerusalem was "stacked with images idols". I am aware of the Romans trying to install a bust of the emperor in the temple, and the furore that caused.

2) Also explain how, whatever is true or false about the temple in Jerusalem, this affects in any way what is known about the Kaaba.
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Eagle
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Re: curious

Post by Eagle »

Of course it is all tu quoque and irrelevant, the sarcasm was obvious.

Manasseh, besides putting idols in the temple, indulged in human sacrifice, occultism, and rebuilt the torn down idols of Ahaz. The same cycle of destruction and renewal of idol worship sites continued after with Amon, Josiah, Jehoiakim etc.

frankie
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Re: curious

Post by frankie »

Eagle
And since even by his time, it was recognized that the Kaaba was the house of Allah the supreme creator and that all other idols were intercessors with him brought in later on, then it means that the assertion in relation to Abraham's connection to the Kaaba is true.
What is the difference between the Allah of the Kaaba before Islam, to the Allah of the Kaaba after Islam?

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manfred
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Re: curious

Post by manfred »

Eagle wrote:Of course it is all tu quoque and irrelevant, the sarcasm was obvious.

Manasseh, besides putting idols in the temple, indulged in human sacrifice, occultism, and rebuilt the torn down idols of Ahaz. The same cycle of destruction and renewal of idol worship sites continued after with Amon, Josiah, Jehoiakim etc.
The story of Manasseh and and his son hardly amount to the temple being "stacked with idols", does it. Manasseh had a difficult balancing act to perform: The Northern kingdom had been eradicated by Assyria, and the only way to survive was to become a vassal king, accepting also religious remands made by the Assyrians. So he did some very questionable things, to keep his kingdom alive. Manasseh later repented, but his son Amon did not, but he only lasted a year. But the time his rule started, the people of Israel had enough. Prophets were preaching against compromise and the people were angry. He was assassinated, and his successor curtailed worship of foreign deities. Mostly during the reign of Josiah the deuteronomic texts were written and the biblical texts speak very well of him. His son, Jehoiakim, was less well received, but he only reigned three months or so.

So in the 1000 year or period of a temple in Jerusalem, there were some 55 years at most when there may have been other deities worshipped there as well. This was in the end forcefully rejected and did not ever have a renaissance.

What we do find in the histories presented to us in Kings and Chronicles are the struggles, set backs and eventual triumphs of the Israelites with their religion and foreign influence, and how these external influences brought challenges which in the end led to a stronger, more self-conscious religion, as they were overcome.

If you see this background then you can understand much better how and why Judaism includes some practices to keep the Jews separate from others, such as the food law to limit social interaction, for example.

This is a major difference to Islam: Judaism has a very long history of many ups and downs, and a developing faith, one that took many centuries to mature. Islam started with Mohammed and only has a fake history of the times before then, and a faith defined by one man, who adapted it as the need arose.
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Eagle
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Re: curious

Post by Eagle »

They worshipped idols in the Temple under Manasseh and most probably earlier and later. But even a minute of straying by the Israelites is equivalent to 1000 years of deviation by the Ishmaelites at their own temple of the one God in Mecca. Although the People protested originally to the innovations, they were quickly curtailed and cannot be compared in that sense to the Israelites who, being the torch bearers of truth until they were deposed from the honorific title, were sent countless prophets and shown numerous miracles, even during the time of Manasseh and yet still deviated. With the Ishmaelites, however, it only took a fraction of what their predecessors were shown from proofs, and it was enough to eradicate the corruption they grafted into the religion of Abraham once and for all.

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manfred
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Re: curious

Post by manfred »

The Arabs in the Hijaz, who are not "Ishmaelites", never "strayed" from the "religion of Abraham". That is because they simply never followed it, not at all, not before Mohammed and not afterwards.

As to the "clear proofs" you mention, presumably you mean what the Qur'an means by that, it was not those that "convinced" them of Mohammed's claims.... it was Mohammed's sable rattling army, his public execution and torture of critics, his statement saying that if you want your life and property to be safe from me, you accept Islam.

The Kaaba was never a monotheistic shrine of any kind until Mohammed turned it into one. Of course everybody at the time knew that, but you do not contradict Mohammed and keep your head.
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frankie
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Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: curious

Post by frankie »

Eagle

Please answer my question, based on your assumption.
And since even by his time, it was recognized that the Kaaba was the house of Allah the supreme creator and that all other idols were intercessors with him brought in later on, then it means that the assertion in relation to Abraham's connection to the Kaaba is true.

What is the difference between the Allah of the Kaaba before Islam,compared to the Allah of the Kaaba after Islam?

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manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: curious

Post by manfred »

As to your claim about the complete absence of superstition in Islam.... what is this?

Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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