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Magic

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:26 am
by manfred
A belief in magic is mandatory in Islam:

The Qur'an speaks of it:

Sura 113

1 Say: I seek refuge with the Lord of the Dawn
2 From the mischief of created things;
3 From the mischief of Darkness as it overspreads;
4 From the mischief of those who practise secret arts;
5 And from the mischief of the envious one as he practises envy.

In Mohammed's life:

According to the traditions, a group of the Jews from Khaibar visited Medina where they met a famous magician, named Labid bin Asam. They said to him:

"You know how Muhammad has treated us. We have tried our best to bewitch him but have not succeeded. Now we have come to you because you are a more skilled magician. Here are three gold coins, accept these and cast a powerful magic spell on Muhammad."

Syed Maududi's commentary


This found its way into sahih hadith:

Magic was worked on the Prophet so that he began to fancy that he was doing a thing which he was not actually doing. One day he invoked (Allah) for a long period and then said, "I feel that Allah has inspired me as how to cure myself. Two persons came to me (in my dream) and sat, one by my head and the other by my feet. One of them asked the other, "What is the ailment of this man?" The other replied, 'He has been bewitched" The first asked, 'Who has bewitched him?' The other replied, 'Lubaid bin Al-A'sam.' The first one asked, 'What material has he used?' The other replied, 'A comb, the hair gathered on it, and the outer skin of the pollen of the male date-palm.' The first asked, 'Where is that?' The other replied, 'It is in the well of Dharwan.'" So, the Prophet went out towards the well and then returned and said to me on his return, "Its date-palms (the date-palms near the well) are like the heads of the devils." I asked, "Did you take out those things with which the magic was worked?" He said, "No, for I have been cured by Allah and I am afraid that this action may spread evil amongst the people." Later on the well was filled up with earth.

Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 490

There is also
Magic was worked on Allah's Apostle so that he used to think that he had sexual relations with his wives while he actually had not (Sufyan said: That is the hardest kind of magic as it has such an effect)........


Hadith Bukhari Volume 7, Book 71, Number 660

There is also this

Muslim, Book 25, Number 5448:
Narrated Anas ibn Malik:

In connection with incantation Anas reported that he had been granted sanction (to use incantation as a remedy) for the sting of the scorpion and for curing small pustules and dispelling the influence of an evil eye.


Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 65, Number 356, claims that Sad said:

Allah's Apostle said, "He who eats seven 'Ajwa dates every morning, will not be affected by poison or magic on the day he eats them."


Also, Sahih Muslim, Book 25, Number 5531: Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah:

Allah's Messenger (peace_be_upon_him) said: If bad luck were to be in anything, it is found in the land, in the servant and in the horse.


All this shows clearly that Mohammed believed in magic and he believed that people used it against him. Even the Qur'an speaks of magic. This leaves little room for Muslims to disagree.

So do Muslims today agree that magic is real?

Well, they execute witches, to this day...

https://foreignpolicy.com/2011/12/13/ho ... di-arabia/

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:32 am
by Eagle
The Quran rejects all forms of popular occult sciences, like magic and witchcraft such as were wrongly attributed to the prophet Sulayman by some of his contemporaries and those that followed 2:102. Obviously the people misinterpreted Sulayman's ability, granted to him by God, of controling entities of the unseen for his own benefit.

Magic or witchcraft are qualified with the word sihr, from the root S-Ha-R meaning to make things look other than what they actually are, ie deception. There are 3 ways one can try and achieve that objective; the trick or slight of hand, the chemistry and the psychological manipulation, all of them meant at deceiving one into perceiving something else than what is actually occuring.

When relating Moses' public confrontation with Pharaoh's sorcerers, the Quran says that they 7:116"saharoo aAAyuna alnnasi/they tricked the eyes of the people", the point being that magic is about tricking the eyes to think that what it sees is reality when it is not.

There are some reports in hadith literature speaking of people attempting to bewitch the prophet, and even succeeding for a lapse of time, confusing him in conjugal matters. Assuming the reports as true for argument's sake, a crafty magic trick/illusion can certainly confuse anyone momentarily, in any kind of matter. It is to be kept in mind however that the supposed confusion never pertained to divine comunications, an area time and again declared as protected from any interference, human or else, from its descent from heaven until it is delivered to the prophet's heart and transmitted to the people.

The Quran for example, in the context of truthfulness of prophethood and divine origin of the Book, repeatedly denies the claims made by his contemporaries that he might be demon possessed or under the effect of the jinn or under a spell or that he is himself a magician/sorcerer as other prophets were similarily calumnied.

That deception, commonly called magic or sorcery, is fully encompassed by God's knowlegde and power, not allowing it to affect anything or anyone except by His own will, meaning it has no power in and of itself
"they can harm none thereby save by God's leave".
It further states that the only thing one can be sure of, is that seeking such a means of deception is harmful to the seeker himself, and will never benefit him in anyway
"they acquire a knowledge that only harms themselves and does not benefit them".
This is demonstrated by the clear declaration of the 2 angelic messengers of Babylon, Harut and Marut, telling the people not to become deniers of the truth by misusing what was revealed upon them from knowledge. But that is exactly what many did. Following the examples and whisperings of evil beings (men or jinn), they began practicing the knowledge acquired from the messengers in deceitful ways, contrary to the original intent, ultimately harming themselves only and not benefiting from the practice in anyway, shape or form (which wouldnt be the case had the "sorcery" ritual been succesful in its evil objective).

It is with such perspective in mind that the passage of sura falaq where we seek protection with God from the
113:4"nafathat fil uqad"
must be understood. The phrase lit. means "the blowers on knots". It was an idiom in pre-Islamic Arabia designating all supposedly occult endeavours. The Quran negates that such practices can benefit in any way the one that resorts to them and has labelled them a sin. The sin consitsts not in that they might possibly harm anyone using magical powers but in the very thought of possessing some supernatural abilities without God's license.
When we seek protection from the evil of those who practice occultism, not from their actions or supposed powers and effects, we recognize the principle already stated in 2:102"they can harm none thereby save by God's leave". We put our trust in God against all evil endeavours, not to undo any kind of magic spells.

Coming back to the reports, so the prophet was able to point, by divine inspiration, the material used by the person seeking to bewitch him and after locating it, doesnt bother destroying it because God cured him. What does this prove? Divine inspiration doesnt come to false prophets and the sorcery device had no power in and of itself.

Back to the verse 2:102, it isnt specific on the nature of the revelation upon the angels. But what is known is that it was a divine revelation, not magic or deceptive tricks. The verse speaks of 2 groups transmitting knowledge to completely different ends;
- the shayateen (men or jinn) that teach sihr/trickery combined with what they learned from the angels, for sinful ends. The reason they would need to do so would be to deceive the people into thinking that sihr is a divinely condoned practice. This is done up to this day with charlatans using Quranic passages in fanciful ways and rituals.
- the angels that teach divine revelation, warning their audience of whom they perceived the inclination to disbelief, not to misuse that knowledge to evil ends and thereby damage their soul. Some did not heed the warnings and only learned from them the bits that cause harm. As seen everyday, the Quran itself can be misused in such a manner, with people taking bits of passages, stripping them from the direct and wider context, then applying that knowledge in harmful ways.

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:48 am
by manfred
Thank you eagle for your as ever detailed response.

You have not yet told us if you think magic as such is real or not.

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:14 am
by Eagle
It (sihr) is real in that it causes trickery of the senses through the 3 mentionned manners. It is unreal in the abstract, traditional sense of being a supernatural power outside God's license.

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:42 am
by manfred
So, eagle, say a woman reading Tarot cards, for example, how should she be executed?

And was Mohammed ever bewitched? For example,when he was saying he slept with all his wives in one night, was that a slight of hand, chemistry or psychological manipulation as you put it?

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:55 pm
by Mughal
manfred wrote:A belief in magic is mandatory in Islam:

The Qur'an speaks of it:

Sura 113

1 Say: I seek refuge with the Lord of the Dawn
2 From the mischief of created things;
3 From the mischief of Darkness as it overspreads;
4 From the mischief of those who practise secret arts;
5 And from the mischief of the envious one as he practises envy.

In Mohammed's life:

According to the traditions, a group of the Jews from Khaibar visited Medina where they met a famous magician, named Labid bin Asam. They said to him:

"You know how Muhammad has treated us. We have tried our best to bewitch him but have not succeeded. Now we have come to you because you are a more skilled magician. Here are three gold coins, accept these and cast a powerful magic spell on Muhammad."

Syed Maududi's commentary


This found its way into sahih hadith:

Magic was worked on the Prophet so that he began to fancy that he was doing a thing which he was not actually doing. One day he invoked (Allah) for a long period and then said, "I feel that Allah has inspired me as how to cure myself. Two persons came to me (in my dream) and sat, one by my head and the other by my feet. One of them asked the other, "What is the ailment of this man?" The other replied, 'He has been bewitched" The first asked, 'Who has bewitched him?' The other replied, 'Lubaid bin Al-A'sam.' The first one asked, 'What material has he used?' The other replied, 'A comb, the hair gathered on it, and the outer skin of the pollen of the male date-palm.' The first asked, 'Where is that?' The other replied, 'It is in the well of Dharwan.'" So, the Prophet went out towards the well and then returned and said to me on his return, "Its date-palms (the date-palms near the well) are like the heads of the devils." I asked, "Did you take out those things with which the magic was worked?" He said, "No, for I have been cured by Allah and I am afraid that this action may spread evil amongst the people." Later on the well was filled up with earth.

Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 490

There is also
Magic was worked on Allah's Apostle so that he used to think that he had sexual relations with his wives while he actually had not (Sufyan said: That is the hardest kind of magic as it has such an effect)........


Hadith Bukhari Volume 7, Book 71, Number 660

There is also this

Muslim, Book 25, Number 5448:
Narrated Anas ibn Malik:

In connection with incantation Anas reported that he had been granted sanction (to use incantation as a remedy) for the sting of the scorpion and for curing small pustules and dispelling the influence of an evil eye.


Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 65, Number 356, claims that Sad said:

Allah's Apostle said, "He who eats seven 'Ajwa dates every morning, will not be affected by poison or magic on the day he eats them."


Also, Sahih Muslim, Book 25, Number 5531: Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah:

Allah's Messenger (peace_be_upon_him) said: If bad luck were to be in anything, it is found in the land, in the servant and in the horse.


All this shows clearly that Mohammed believed in magic and he believed that people used it against him. Even the Qur'an speaks of magic. This leaves little room for Muslims to disagree.

So do Muslims today agree that magic is real?

Well, they execute witches, to this day...

https://foreignpolicy.com/2011/12/13/ho ... di-arabia/


Dear manfred, the quran is not at all the nonsense of mullas. They have been translating and interpreting the quran in isolation from the realities of the real world as per their own ideas, beliefs, concepts or imaginations about things told about in the quran.

In a nutshell the quran is book of deen of islam from God for mankind to live by in this world properly as a proper human community in a kingdom based upon guidance of Allah. This is its overall proper context in which all its verses make perfect sense.

Miracles, magic or supernatural beings are all creations of human imaginations due to their lack of real knowledge about things in the real world. Allah has revealed his guidance for humanity to demystify things for them and not to turn things into mysteries for them.

Words used in the quran have many different or multiple meanings because people have been using those words that way. However God used them from his point of view as well. When you use a word you use it according to your purpose not mine or anyone else's. Likewise God used words in the quran objectively so that they serve his purpose. If he talks about people and talks about their beliefs then he uses them either to confirm their beliefs if they are really true or in the opposite sense to correct peoples' concepts and imaginations.

God has created this world as a physical phenomenon therefore it can be sensed by human beings either directly or by way of instrumentation. It is true that our senses are limited but they are limited in sense of lack of all awareness and not in sense of not being able to work out things.

The quran can be interpreted rationally and that is what is important not mumbo jumbo of mullas. The question is, how did mumbo jumbo get into people who claim to be muslims? At the time of revelation of the quran people had many versions of religion already so all kinds of mumbo jumbos were there already. Deen of islam came to do away with those but people kept fooling each other as most people were never interested in learning reality of things. Even today most people do not go to school, college or university to learn knowledge for sake of becoming proper human beings. They go their because they are forced to by their circumstances eg to get some qualifications to get by in life.

Very few people learn knowledge for better understanding of this world and themselves in it. This is why nonsense continued to this day and will continue despite a lot of people knowing much better about this world. It is because people not only stay ignorant themselves but most are also kept ignorant by each other so that they could fool each other in various ways. I mean what could be worse than parents abusing their own children but it happens, why? Because that is the way some people have turned out to be. Their lives also have been shaped by their close relatives and wider society the way we have set up our human world. So it all comes down to which way of life we have chosen for ourselves to live by.

Their are only two distinct ways of life. One is deen of islam ie a way of life if understood properly and followed faithfully will lead human beings to unity, peace, progress and prosperity by living for each other as a community in a kingdom ensuring well being of each other with help and support of each other, and the other way of life that is based upon foundation of personal gains at the expense of each other. So it is not difficult to see why one way of life can lead to best possible life and the other to worst possible life. It is because one way of life makes people work with each other for their own well being and the other makes people fight with each other for domination over each other. In order to dominate others, people use all sorts of tricks and mechanisms against each other including fooling each other or confusing each other. This is what has been going on always and still continues. This is why a lot of ideas or beliefs or practices have been created by people to get what they want from each other the hard way. Ideas or concepts like miracles, magic, supernatural beings like angels and demons and ghosts and spirits etc etc have been introduced and used by people to fool each other for getting their way. Children can be frightened in various ways even by parents as we know for various reasons ie some good others bad.

We know miracles or magic or supernatural activities by supernatural natural beings are impossible, why? It is because God has created this world and runs it according to set laws of nature. We know a law is only a law about things if things happen the same way always ie there is no exception in a law, this is why it is called a law. If something does not happen the same way always then we cannot define such happening as a law. If changes occur randomly then we can never trust our senses and we cannot have any sense of history at all about something. Also In that case we can never explains things to ourselves instead we will be dumbfounded, not knowing what is going on all around us in our world. For example, if fire sometimes burnt things and at other times frozen them at random then how will it be possible for us to predict anything about the fire as to what it is going to do or when or what it has been doing and when etc etc? If we put a kettle of water on the fire to make some tea but instead of heating water it freezes it then we could not use it for that purpose.

Likewise if we left our houses and went out we will see random things happening all around us all the time and when we return home, we will see all things turned upside down in the house due to demons being mischievous like mischievous kids. Moreover people will not be able to make weapons because they will behave randomly just like fire ie unpredictably. Moreover demons will steal weapons of their opponents, so one can see if we accept nonsense of mullas of various religious versions then we cannot believe in any guidance from God at all. If God had not set up his world to work according to some laws then it will have been a total failure. Since this world according to our observations works according to some set laws we can conclude therefore it has been created by God for a set purpose.

The question is, how did all this nonsense of miracles, magic, angels, demons or jinns or djinns or ghosts or spirits etc etc come to muslims? The final messenger of Allah brought people out of their nonsense beliefs and practices and turned people at odds with each other into a proper human community in a kingdom based upon guidance of God. However after his death things went out of control. How did that happen? In any kingdom based upon guidance of God that was brought about by a messenger of God, people lived best possible lives possible in their times. This being the case other people when they got the message of good life in those kingdoms they came to them looking for better life just like today. In times of messengers of God they made sure people only came in numbers they could educate and integrate. However after them their followers spread the message of good life too far and too many people came over and as a result these kingdoms became swamped by over population with which people already in the kingdoms could not cope so the discipline broken down which led to break down of the kingdoms. Very same happened after final messenger of Allah passed away ie his followers let in far too many people they could handle so the kingdom came to its end. Since people who came over had their own beliefs and practices therefore instead of muslims helping them to be proper muslims the muslims gradually ended up becoming like them. This is how deen of islam became mazhab of islam and since then this is the islam there has been always as majority religion. This is how the wrong interpretation of the quranic text was forced on to people by people who becam etheir rulers by force. Since then deen of islam became religion of imperialism ie religion of kings or rulers or emperors. In other words since then deen of islam has been used as tool of exploitation and the very way of life that was for ensuring well being of mankind turned their worst enemy in its very name.

This is why people must not trust mullas who claim to be muslim religious leaders, why not? Because they are stooges of rulers and money lenders so they try their best to push onto unaware public not only wrong but harmful and destructive beliefs and practices in the very name of deen of islam or God and his messenger. If anyone is in doubt one should ask them questions about certain terms they use for deen of islam as to what they mean. They become fully exposed as to what their islam means. It has nothing at all to do with the quranic text. Their way to prove they are true guardians of deen of islam is, look we are the majority in the world and majority can never go wrong. They have no idea the quran condemns people for having such beliefs because it wants people to judge the truth of deen of islam on basis of rules of judgement in light of real world realities and not on basis of majority or minority. It tells people, you should not follow even your own ancestors if they went astray let alone follow anyone else and this is despite the fact that one is told to respect his parents' parental right.

In deen of islam there is no such thing as a human ruler or king or emperor etc. It is because Allah alone is creator and ruler of this world. All people are supposed to be one under God but how? By living by a constitution and its laws based upon the guidance of the quran. A human being can be AMEER or KHALIFAH etc only in sense of a manager on behalf of ummah. It is up to ummah to assign its members the tasks its wants them to carry out according to wishes of the ummah in light of the quran and the real world realities. This is why there is no concept of exploitative business dealings in deen of islam within the ummah either because doing business that way means negative exploitation of each other by way of tricks and mechanisms eg by using money mechanism or the like. Since negatively exploitative business dealings are based upon principle of gain and loss and deen of islam strictly forbids infliction of losses on each other amongst muslims such business are haraam in deen of islam but not in mullas' islam. There is no mullaism in deen of islam because deen of islam is not about pooja paat where in you need priests therefore priesthood but it is about living by a proper constitution and its proper laws based upon the quranic guidance. One can see that if people are allowed to rule each other or they are allowed to exploit each other abusively in any way or are made fools of by priestly class then they cannot be brethren in islam or an ummah. So if anyone claims deen of islam wants people to be a proper human community ie an ummah then one cannot promote anything in the name of islam which contradicts this foundation.

These are the reasons I see people wasting their time and energy in trying to discuss the quran and deen of islam in a way that has no end solution or benefit for them at all. It will be better spending of time for them to explore the quran as I have been explaining because it makes perfect sense and if people managed to understand the quran properly it will bring them huge benefits beyond their imaginations. Regardless it is up to people themselves whether they follow my suggestion or continue as they are. I can only see huge losses for humanity if they do not listen to voice of reason instead of emotional attachments.

regards and all the best.

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:14 pm
by sum
Hello Mughal

Your quote -
We know miracles or magic or supernatural activities by supernatural natural beings are impossible, why?

Are you saying that Jesus did not perform miracles?

sum

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:35 pm
by Mughal
sum wrote:Hello Mughal

Your quote -
We know miracles or magic or supernatural activities by supernatural natural beings are impossible, why?

Are you saying that Jesus did not perform miracles?

sum


No dear sum, no messenger of God performed any miracles at all. Messengers of God educated as many people as they could out of their ignorance as much as they could being sensible people themselves. By the way, jesus was not born out of a virgin either. He did not die on the cross nor rose from the dead. These are all make beliefs spread by priestly class to fool people who wish to be made fools of. If someone wants to be taken for a ride then that is up to him. You see people who cannot think logically consistently believe anything someone tells them. I have explained things HERE as well

regards and all the best.

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:34 pm
by manfred
Mughal is is apparent that Muslims not only believe in Magic (to their day they execute "witches") but also that it is part of Islamic teaching.

What is also interesting is that the Qur'e itself is said to have magical properties. It "protects" against magic.

There are even "amulets" for that purpose with Qur'an verses:

Image

It is clear that Mohammed believed in witchcraft and because of this Muslims are stuck with it.

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:03 pm
by Mughal
manfred wrote:Mughal is is apparent that Muslims not only believe in Magic (to their day they execute "witches") but also that it is part of Islamic teaching.

What is also interesting is that the Qur'e itself is said to have magical properties. It "protects" against magic.

There are even "amulets" for that purpose with Qur'an verses:

Image

It is clear that Mohammed believed in witchcraft and because of this Muslims are stuck with it.


Dear manfred, I agree with you that people who claim to be muslims, a huge majority of them believe in all sorts of nonsense things. I shared some videos about them as well in the other thread. I mean people do whatever their holy men or women tell them in the name of deen of islam or in the name of God and his messenger. If they tell them to jump into the dog's dirt they will do it without much hesitation. However my point is, that is not the teaching of the deen of islam based upon the proper understanding of the quran.

I myself used to believe in all sorts of nonsense till I learned to think logically consistently. That is why I left mullas' islam way behind because it was totally irrational and inconsistent within itself and in conflict with real world realities and benefited neither God nor human beings. Thank God I escaped mullaism in time before it was too late. It is thanks to so many people who helped me educate myself out of all sorts of nonsense.

regards and all the best.




Re: Magic

PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:24 am
by Hombre
Dear mughal
you keep harping on the only way to understand the Quran is "read it the proper way" - further you claim "Mullahs simply express their own interpretation of the Quran, which in your view they are wrong.

Frankly your repeated claims are getting stale. After all, yourself also interpret the Quran the way you see fit. So what make you more credible then other Muhllahs? They also would claim the same - you interprate the Quran the wrong way, and we are back at as manfred had coined it "The circular reasoning"

By advocating to read the Quran "the proper way" - you are asking others to ignore their own logic and critical thinking, question their own intelligence - so vital & necessary in any modern society - blindly believe & accept anything - as objectionable as might be written in this 1400 year manuscript with a 40 year old illiterate man as its sole source compiled over mere 23 years.

In this day & age - reading any manuscript "the proper way" means read with critical thinking. Debate its content and merits - not just accept social and code of behavior to which modern societies no longer accept or practice it differently. That explains the deep disparity between Judea-Christianity which looks forward, compared to that of Islam which keeps looking backward - a school of thought to which you seem advocating here.

I sincerely don't know how else you can be convinced that, the Quran is NOT the words of Allah - rather Muhammad's own compilation and implementation of his own life experience with earlier meetings Jews, Christians hearing & watching them practice their respective religious tenets and those Pagan worshipers in Mecca

All you need to get to the "promised land" is use your own common sense and sense of cognitive resonance with realities of today.

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:16 am
by Mughal
Hombre wrote:Dear mughal
you keep harping on the only way to understand the Quran is "read it the proper way" - further you claim "Mullahs simply express their own interpretation of the Quran, which in your view they are wrong.

Frankly your repeated claims are getting stale. After all, yourself also interpret the Quran the way you see fit. So what make you more credible then other Muhllahs? They also would claim the same - you interprate the Quran the wrong way, and we are back at as manfred had coined it "The circular reasoning"

By advocating to read the Quran "the proper way" - you are asking others to ignore their own logic and critical thinking, question their own intelligence - so vital & necessary in any modern society - blindly believe & accept anything - as objectionable as might be written in this 1400 year manuscript with a 40 year old illiterate man as its sole source compiled over mere 23 years.

In this day & age - reading any manuscript "the proper way" means read with critical thinking. Debate its content and merits - not just accept social and code of behavior to which modern societies no longer accept or practice it differently. That explains the deep disparity between Judea-Christianity which looks forward, compared to that of Islam which keeps looking backward - a school of thought to which you seem advocating here.

I sincerely don't know how else you can be convinced that, the Quran is NOT the words of Allah - rather Muhammad's own compilation and implementation of his own life experience with earlier meetings Jews, Christians hearing & watching them practice their respective religious tenets and those Pagan worshipers in Mecca

All you need to get to the "promised land" is use your own common sense and sense of cognitive resonance with realities of today.


Dear hombre, this is where open discussion is absolutely necessary till we reach a proper conclusion in this regard ie how to understand the quranic text properly?

Have people ever discussed and reached a proper conclusion regarding proper way for understanding the quranic text properly? Never. If anyone has any proof about it please share it here. This question exposes all people who talk about the quran nonstop be they muslims or nonmuslims. It puts all claims by all people about the quran aside, be they right or wrong. It is because one must prove one's claims about the quran are worth the time.

My question for all people muslim or nonmuslim is why have you ignored this fundamental question about the quran? Is it because it will have exposed the actual reality of the quran for mankind? I think so. What could have happened if this discussion was taken up? Kingdom of God could have come and survived because then people will have come to know for sure the quran is not work of any human being.

Who or which people have been stopping people from bringing this sort of discussion in the open? It is result of ignorance of people in general but it was also a case of some established people with vested interests keeping things the way they were because it gave them advantage over others this way. It is because in kingdom of God all people are supposed to be one under God and that meant no slaves for those who wanted to be masters and no human rulers over people. No abusive exploitation of people by a few from among themselves. Under God revealed rule all will have been treated fairly. So people who wished to live as kings over others could not do so. The only way such people could take advantage was to keep things confused for as many as they could for as long as they could so that things stayed the way they were. Kings did not want to lose their privileges.This is why such advantaged people got divine scriptures reinterpreted in ways which suited them. This is why when a messenger of God rose amongst a people he was opposed by their priestly class. They were the front line defence of kings and rulers or money lenders etc etc.

Why will kings build mandirs, temples, synagogues, churches, mosques etc etc at every corner of a street in a town? They were not interested in helping their people otherwise their people could not be suffering in dire poverty while they themselves lived luxuriously at their expense. It was because they wanted to brainwash people by creating a priestly class in order to control masses through them. Had they been interested in well being of their people, they will have built schools, universities and hospitals etc. The changes we see throughout history were only forced by changing world and things in it and not because people were changing out of wilful planning for the betterment of humanity. Changes for betterment of humanity were triggered by messengers of God only yet they did not take any credit for it because they worked as missionaries for God for the good of humanity. Later their messages were distorted after them yet changes they brought in mindsets, attitudes and behaviours of a people survived to this day to some extent at least. This is why human world is still there with some good thinking people in it who keep bringing to our attention messages of God and concern for betterment of humanity.

Godly or good people in sight of God are only and only those who take real issues of concern for humanity seriously and fight for them and not those who say you are good if you pray to God and carry out various ritual acts of worships which priests invented for giving people wrong sense of Godly people. This is why most people will not take anyone as someone good person who deals with real issues but those who go to mandirs or temples or synagogues or churches or mosques etc. People only respect those who wear particular sorts of dresses and command authority. It is therefore so obvious what has been going on in our world and who was responsible for all that. The quran constantly condemns priestly classes of all religions and tells people stop taking these like people as Gods. Think and think again, use your God given brains and senses etc etc. However people continue following the very people who are condemned by their scriptures. So we cannot blame God and scriptures but such people who do not use their heads and wish to remain ignorant and suffer. People await their saviours when scriptures tell them to change this world for the betterment of yourselves by yourselves with help and support of each other.

So anyone can clearly see plenty of conflicts between scriptures and their alleged followers, why is that the case if it were allegedly God revealed scriptures that misguided humanity? This clearly shows God did reveal scriptures but people in power either got rid of them are got them reinterpreted to suit themselves but for some reason they could not get them exactly the way they wanted them to be. If scriptures had been written by people then they will have been written by them the way they wanted them to be but they are not. They are not the way God wanted them to be either so what is going on? It therefore shows there definitely has been going on some foul play. The question is, how to get to the bottom of all this? By knowing the right way of understanding the God revealed scriptures properly. When we have a formula and we apply it and it works and thereby solves our problem then we can be reasonably sure the scripture is God revealed and not man made. It is because we can then reinterpret the scriptures by ourselves and and we can clearly see it consistent within itself as well as with respect to real world realities. This is why knowing the right way for understanding the quran properly for this age is absolutely necessary if we want to solve all our differences and be one under God for peace between ourselves and to concentrate on our progress and be prosperous to be ready for serving the purpose for which God created us as already explained in detail in my other posts.

regards and all the best

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:49 pm
by Fernando
Eagle wrote:Magic or witchcraft are qualified with the word sihr, from the root S-Ha-R meaning to make things look other than what they actually are, ie deception.
Does that mean that Allah is the Great Deceiver Magician?

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:25 am
by sum
Hello Mughal

When you replied to my question about Jesus and miracles you replied in a general sense as that is your way of responding. You avoid giving a specific answers to a specific questions. Because you believe that messengers can not perform miracles you deny that Jesus performed miracles, implying that Jesus was only a messenger.

Are the miracles in the Bible false or real? Do not forget that Allah confirmed the Bible but if the miracles in the Bible were false then Allah would not have confirmed the Bible.

If the miracles in the Bible are true and messengers can not perform miracles then what is the status of Jesus? Could he be the real Son of God? Would you like that?

sum

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:36 pm
by Mughal
sum wrote:Hello Mughal

When you replied to my question about Jesus and miracles you replied in a general sense as that is your way of responding. You avoid giving a specific answers to a specific questions. Because you believe that messengers can not perform miracles you deny that Jesus performed miracles, implying that Jesus was only a messenger.

Are the miracles in the Bible false or real? Do not forget that Allah confirmed the Bible but if the miracles in the Bible were false then Allah would not have confirmed the Bible.

If the miracles in the Bible are true and messengers can not perform miracles then what is the status of Jesus? Could he be the real Son of God? Would you like that?

sum


Dear sum, I explained the principles according to which God works or can work. If anyone claims any scripture is from God then that scripture has to be in accordance with those principles or nonsense cannot be attributed to God. Anyone can say God is this or that or can do this or that but certain things God cannot be or cannot do. In short there are things that are possible for God and there are things which are not or cannot be.

Anyone attributing to God anything that cannot be, one is ignorant about it and therefore is deliberately lying for whatever reason one may have in one's mind.

Miracles are not impossible or beyond capability of God but they need to have a definite purpose that could be justified in light of over all purpose of God for which he created this world and human beings in it with ability of choice and in light of real world realities. If miracles were beyond capabilities of God then God could not even create this world or send his revelations. So no matter one believes jesus is God or man the rules are rules or laws are laws and as I have explained in detail they cannot be broken or bent even by God or his purpose for which he has set up all this drama could not be fulfilled. No matter what God does not do things haphazardly. If he did, things could not make any sense to us human beings at all. It is because they make reasonable sense it means he did them sensibly according to his purpose based plan.

So whatever is about God in any scripture in the world which is according to real world realities and sensible is true and all else is false that makes no sense at all. Anyway why are you talking about jesus and bible in particular if you are an atheist? The quran does not confirm any existing scripture at all as God sent because they are not like the quran as I have already explained in my other posts. The quran only and only confirms authenticity of original God sent scriptures which no longer exist in the world or we do not know anything about them any more. May be one day some people will discover them in some cave somewhere in the world by chance like some other accidental discoveries.

You also ignored my explanation about use of language by people. Words used in any scripture could be interpreted in various ways so why force them to mean what they cannot? For example, word taken for magic from arabic is SIHR which is from root SEEN, HAA and RAA. It has many different meanings including magic. But why people chose to use word magic for it instead of witchcraft or dawn or deception or jugglery or trickery or falsehood or lie etc etc etc? Arabic word used for miracle is MOJIZA which is from root AIN, JEEM and ZAA. It also has many meanings eg old age or posterior or buttocks or confinement or something that hangs back or stumps of palm tree or failure or incapability or incapacity or powerlessness or wonder or marvel etc etc etc but why people used word miracle for it? We need to start looking at intentions of original translators of scriptures. Wrong translations and interpretations of scriptures by their translators and interpreters are definitely result of their gross ignorance on one hand and then of their wrongful intentions on the other. They were definitely not working for God and humanity but against them for their own personal gains at the expense of rest of humanity. The other question worth raising is, why and how the original God sent scriptures became replaced? Once we tackle these sorts of questions things will start making sense as to what has been going on in our human world about these things.

This is why I blame all human wrong doings on people who were on the top. If a child is messed up, it is due to lack of proper upbringing. If simple minded people have become messed up, it is due to clever but cunning minded people. No one therefore should be in any doubt as to who has been misleading mankind throughout human history. People of similar mindsets, attitudes and behaviours are leading our world into its future for our future generations regardless we like it or not. They play with our minds all the time in many different ways so if people at large ie masses want to be saved from these devils, they must drive and help each other towards education so that we could become capable of seeing them clearly what they are doing to us all and how they are doing it. Unless we do that we will remain vulnerable in their hands always as we have been. I see things in a very different way than almost all of the people. I have no idea why I am the odd one out but I thank God for that and hope he keeps me on the right track for helping others as much as I can, so that together we could make this world what it should be with help and support of each other. I also know it is going to take a lot more time yet. People are not yet ready to take the step that needs to be taken by them towards a self regulated human society which based upon proper constitution and its proper laws.

regards and all the best.

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:25 pm
by sum
Hello Mughal

You still have not told me if the miracles in the Bible are true or false. Please just tell me - it only needs a yes or no.

sum

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:59 am
by Mughal
sum wrote:Hello Mughal

You still have not told me if the miracles in the Bible are true or false. Please just tell me - it only needs a yes or no.

sum


Dear sum, I have clearly explained the rules to judge things by. In case of scriptures I have stated possibilities for their origin and I have explained their contents ie they have been mistranslated, misinterpreted, misrepresented and misused. So what else have I left out to clarify further? This means if scriptures are genuine then they have been misinterpreted but if they were brought about for ulterior motives then they are false, no question about it.

As for all the scriptures in today's world, they were all written by people save the quraan. These people incorporated some teachings of the original God sent scriptures. This is why they do not have the textual style that of the quraan. The quraan is a set of 114 lectures by God for humanity through final messenger of God muhammad. This is why it is God speaking in the quraan and he is talking in there about himself as well as things and people etc. In other scriptures, it is their writers who are talking about God and things and people etc. They are telling their stories about them. This is why they have a story format or style as I have explained already in detail in my other posts.

As for quranic confirmation of God sent scriptures that is true but only for books like the quran not for books that were written by people as stories. Still they contain words of God as well, as reported by the people who wrote them. So no scripture in that sense can be totally false. This is why whatever is in line with the quran can be fully accepted as God sent but not that which opposes the quran. Again what scriptures actually say and what people make of them are two different things. Whether what people say about scriptures is true or false needs to be judged on basis of rules of sound judgement and in light of real world realities. This is why stories told in the bible could be true if they could be interpreted on that basis but false if they cannot be explained on that basis.

Bible as interpreted by christian priests of all main sects can be declared false but we cannot declare it false in actual fact till someone like myself tries to interprets it by studying it properly in depth according to some acceptable rules and utterly fails. However I think bible can also be explained rationally to a great degree if people tried even if it is a human work about God. For example, people who live by way of life that is opposite of way of life advised by God do end up in trouble in time and either repent and reform or die away. This is how a God sent scripture or person brings a people back to life by educating them out of their ignorance based way of life by way of life advised by God ie living for each other instead of living at the expense of each other etc etc. A dead people are those who end up stuck or they stagnate and regress and finally die away in time. In that sense jesus did raise many from the dead. He did turn salty waters into fresh waters to bring life to dead people. What priests call sermons of messengers of God are in fact lectures by them for educating their people to waken them up from their deep slumber. This is nothing less than a great miracle ie turning a very useless people into a very useful people.

regards and all the best.

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:01 am
by Hombre
dear mughal
with all due respect - reading your replies / comments you sound like a parrot. Repeat the same claim "read the Quran the proper way". Whatever that means - you make little sense. You are brainwashed so thoroughly into believing Quran is the words-of-Allah - not even realizing how often you contradict yourself.

You see! the biggest difference between most of us the Jewish & Christians members here & you is that - in addition to reading & studying our own respective holy books, WE ALSO READ THE QURAN. Beside the Quran - most likely you did not read neither the HB nor the NT, because you are prohibited from finding the truth source of the Quran & that of Islam - a mere repitition of those biblical stories told in HB & NT. The very reason we have problem communicating with you, SAM and other decent Muslims "The proper way".

You write of "open debate about the content of the Quran"- ignoring the fact, anyone who questions any word in this manuscript ends up dead. Have you asked yourself why so?. If the Quran is word of god it should be immune from, and impervious to any criticism by "petty humans".

How a book which almost all its content were copied from other & older religions (75% of its content is plagiarized from the Hebrew Bible, 20% from New Testament & 5% from the Pagan worshipers in Mekkah), can be recognized as word of god. The Quran is NOT word of any god - only from Muhammad own imagination.

btw. Why you never mention the name of Muhammad?

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:19 pm
by sum
Hello Mughal

I`m afraid that your reply does not answer my question - far from it.

Bearing in mind your personal rules for examining scripture, please now answer my question as to whether the miracles in the Bible are real miracles or not.

It is your own understanding that I would like.

Please give a clear and specific answer to my question.

sum

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:21 pm
by Mughal
Hombre wrote:dear mughal
with all due respect - reading your replies / comments you sound like a parrot. Repeat the same claim "read the Quran the proper way". Whatever that means - you make little sense. You are brainwashed so thoroughly into believing Quran is the words-of-Allah - not even realizing how often you contradict yourself.

You see! the biggest difference between most of us the Jewish & Christians members here & you is that - in addition to reading & studying our own respective holy books, WE ALSO READ THE QURAN. Beside the Quran - most likely you did not read neither the HB nor the NT, because you are prohibited from finding the truth source of the Quran & that of Islam - a mere repitition of those biblical stories told in HB & NT. The very reason we have problem communicating with you, SAM and other decent Muslims "The proper way".

You write of "open debate about the content of the Quran"- ignoring the fact, anyone who questions any word in this manuscript ends up dead. Have you asked yourself why so?. If the Quran is word of god it should be immune from, and impervious to any criticism by "petty humans".

How a book which almost all its content were copied from other & older religions (75% of its content is plagiarized from the Hebrew Bible, 20% from New Testament & 5% from the Pagan worshipers in Mekkah), can be recognized as word of god. The Quran is NOT word of any god - only from Muhammad own imagination.

btw. Why you never mention the name of Muhammad?


Dear hombre, I have explained already how I look at the quran in respect of point you made about quran being copied from the earlier scriptures. The point I made was it is the last book revealed by God not the first book and since deen of islam was the very same as the quran itself tells us so there has to be such a connection between all God sent books from the very first to the very last. I also explained why I do not accept present scriptures as God revealed but I accept they do contain some information from the past God sent books. I do not see anything wrong with it, why should anyone?

I agree with you muslims rulers and their subjects were a brutal people who did not like dissenting voices and due to that many were killed who put forth proper messages of the quran. It is because once a bad world or kingdom order becomes established in a place or kingdom then it becomes very difficult to change it. The same is true about it today. Why muslims are targeted through out the world? Because they want to change the existing world order. Not only that but they want to change it with the one that is worse than what is already there.

The trick of mullas is, on one hand they want islam to rule and on the other they want their islam to rule not islam sent by God. I have explained already the difference between the two. Just because there is a great danger involved in war of ideologies because that often turns into actual war of weapons does not mean we stop speaking the truth or what is right. We still must do whatever we can so that world keeps moving in the right direction no matter how little.

As for talking about muhammad the messenger of God, I have been talking about him. What I reject is the idea that deen of islam is based upon him. It is not. It is based upon God's word. We can support anyone who is doing God's work. God's work is only and only that which is good for humanity. This is what all this struggle is supposed to be about.

I have replied to your post in an other thread regarding surah 108 alkausar so we can concentrate on that as and when we can. Hopefully this will solve many problems of many regarding proper understanding of the text of the quran.

regards and all the best.