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Re: Magic

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:05 pm
by Mughal
sum wrote:Hello Mughal

I`m afraid that your reply does not answer my question - far from it.

Bearing in mind your personal rules for examining scripture, please now answer my question as to whether the miracles in the Bible are real miracles or not.

It is your own understanding that I would like.

Please give a clear and specific answer to my question.

sum


Dear sum, let me put it this way, what is your idea of miracles? If your idea of miracle involves God himself breaking his own set up laws of nature then such acts are impossible from God therefore such miracles are impossible from God because they contradict the very purpose of God for creating this world. If bible means only and only those sort of miracles (which in my view it does not) then bible will be false also for telling us lies. But I think it is fault of people who due to their ignorance and stubbornness take things the wrong way when it can be shown there is a right way to look at things.

Take the example of jesus raising the dead. The question is, why God sent jesus? Does it make any sense? Can any christian explain christianity properly in a logically consistent way? If a christian could explain miracles in a logically consistent way in context of christianity as a whole then I will have no problem because I may have overlooked something which made christianity look inconsistent to me. The point is if you try to explain anything logically consistently about a religion it does not work. This is how we can clearly see all versions of religion are nothing but make beliefs. Likewise all religious practices are just useless or harmful and destructive for humanity. When I realised I had problem with mullas' islam I also studied most of the other scriptures of other religions as well. This is a natural way of looking at things. This is why I am not for any religion at all but deen of islam because it makes much better sense to me than any other way of life as I understand things. You too should keep an eye on the other thread where I am going to discuss a simple text of the quran with our friend hombre. Just to clarify what difference the rules make and why rules are important and where they come from or why or how.

regards and all the best.

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:33 pm
by sum
Hello Mughal

Your quote -
what is your idea of miracles? If your idea of miracle involves God himself breaking his own set up laws of nature then such acts are impossible from God therefore such miracles are impossible from God because they contradict the very purpose of God for creating this world.

This does not make sense. If the Christian God can create his own laws of nature then he can change them in whatever way he chooses. They are his laws and he can do what he likes with them. You do not know what God`s purpose was in creating this world.

Do not forget that Allah knows best. You do not know but Allah does.

You seem to be able to tell us what God can and can not do. This is rather presumptive don`t you think.

Now, following your own thoughts just tell me if the miracles in the Bible are real or false.

sum

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:21 pm
by Hombre
Mughal wrote:Dear hombre,
I have explained already how I look at the quran in respect of point you made about quran being copied from the earlier scriptures. The point I made was it is the last book revealed by God not the first book and since deen of islam was the very same as the quran itself tells us so there has to be such a connection between all God sent books from the very first to the very last. I also explained why I do not accept present scriptures as God revealed but I accept they do contain some information from the past God sent books. I do not see anything wrong with it, why should anyone?

I agree with you muslims rulers and their subjects were a brutal people who did not like dissenting voices and due to that many were killed who put forth proper messages of the quran. It is because once a bad world or kingdom order becomes established in a place or kingdom then it becomes very difficult to change it. The same is true about it today. Why muslims are targeted through out the world? Because they want to change the existing world order. Not only that but they want to change it with the one that is worse than what is already there.

The trick of mullas is, on one hand they want islam to rule and on the other they want their islam to rule not islam sent by God. I have explained already the difference between the two. Just because there is a great danger involved in war of ideologies because that often turns into actual war of weapons does not mean we stop speaking the truth or what is right. We still must do whatever we can so that world keeps moving in the right direction no matter how little.

As for talking about muhammad the messenger of God, I have been talking about him. What I reject is the idea that deen of islam is based upon him. It is not. It is based upon God's word. We can support anyone who is doing God's work. God's work is only and only that which is good for humanity. This is what all this struggle is supposed to be about.

I have replied to your post in an other thread regarding surah 108 alkausar so we can concentrate on that as and when we can. Hopefully this will solve many problems of many regarding proper understanding of the text of the quran.

regards and all the best.
Lets start with Surah 108:
In the name of God, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy. We have truly given abundance a to you [Prophet] – so pray to your
Lord and make your sacrifice to Him alone –– it is the one who hate you who has been cut off.


Do you know how many times this edict in one form or another is mentioned in the HB? - more the 100 times. All told some 1300 years before Quran was dictated by Prophet Muhammad. Suffice to read his own biography, where he visited and whom did he meet while growing up to realize his exposure - witnessing first hand (in Damascus & Madinah) Jewish & Christian practices, after which he simply repeated - rather inaccurately all he heard and saw years earlier. Of course, the only means to validate his prophecy as the true & original message from Allah is discredit earlier sources - The HB & NT.

All you are doing here mughal, is confirm & re-enforce the fact that the Quran simply repeats passages from the HB & NT.

"Islam to change & rule the world". I guess deep in your heart - you too want to subjugate all none-Muslims with your brand of Islam under Sharia Law. The question is what?
Replace 21st century cultural and social norm with 7th century barbaric dogma?.
Behead anyone who uses his god-given right to express their views about religion of Islam - agree or disagree.
Replace monogamy with polygamy. Or re-constitute child marriage? A 53 year old man have sexual intercourse with a 9 year girl?

Please tell me what Islam of today can bring to the world to push us forward deepen our knowledge of the world surrounding us.?
In summary my good man. As long as people get killed for publicly criticize Muhammad or many passages in Quran - Islam will never ever rule the world.

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:18 pm
by Eagle
manfred wrote:So, eagle, say a woman reading Tarot cards, for example, how should she be executed?

And was Mohammed ever bewitched? For example,when he was saying he slept with all his wives in one night, was that a slight of hand, chemistry or psychological manipulation as you put it?


It could have been chemistry or psychological manipulation, or a combination of the 2.

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:22 pm
by Eagle
manfred wrote:Mughal is is apparent that Muslims not only believe in Magic (to their day they execute "witches") but also that it is part of Islamic teaching.

What is also interesting is that the Qur'e itself is said to have magical properties. It "protects" against magic.

There are even "amulets" for that purpose with Qur'an verses:

Image

It is clear that Mohammed believed in witchcraft and because of this Muslims are stuck with it.


viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18449#p242675
Back to the verse 2:102, it isnt specific on the nature of the revelation upon the angels. But what is known is that it was a divine revelation, not magic or deceptive tricks. The verse speaks of 2 groups transmitting knowledge to completely different ends;
- the shayateen (men or jinn) that teach sihr/trickery combined with what they learned from the angels, for sinful ends. The reason they would need to do so would be to deceive the people into thinking that sihr is a divinely condoned practice. This is done up to this day with charlatans using Quranic passages in fanciful ways and rituals.
- the angels that teach divine revelation, warning their audience of whom they perceived the inclination to disbelief, not to misuse that knowledge to evil ends and thereby damage their soul. Some did not heed the warnings and only learned from them the bits that cause harm. As seen everyday, the Quran itself can be misused in such a manner, with people taking bits of passages, stripping them from the direct and wider context, then applying that knowledge in harmful ways.

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:40 pm
by manfred
eagle, it is not o much about the verses on the sheet, it is their USE. They are a "protection" against magic.

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:02 pm
by Mughal
sum wrote:Hello Mughal

Your quote -
what is your idea of miracles? If your idea of miracle involves God himself breaking his own set up laws of nature then such acts are impossible from God therefore such miracles are impossible from God because they contradict the very purpose of God for creating this world.

This does not make sense. If the Christian God can create his own laws of nature then he can change them in whatever way he chooses. They are his laws and he can do what he likes with them. You do not know what God`s purpose was in creating this world.

Do not forget that Allah knows best. You do not know but Allah does.

You seem to be able to tell us what God can and can not do. This is rather presumptive don`t you think.

Now, following your own thoughts just tell me if the miracles in the Bible are real or false.

sum


Dear sum, trust demands consistency ie one can only and only trust someone if someone is consistent. If someone is not consistent then that someone cannot be trusted at all. It is because trust demands predictability. In any other situation you can only and only take a risk which may or may not pay off.

According to all world scriptures which I have read God wants to win trust of people. How could people trust God if he was not a trustworthy being in their minds? It is because people in their hearts of hearts believe God can be trusted regarding what he says because he never goes back on his promises. His word in their minds means it is as good as done. If God could do anything then he could lie to them as well. Not only that he could die tomorrow while he has told people he is ever living.

Acts of God are only two, a)creation and b)revelation. If God wants to win trust of people then he must let them know he is trustworthy by these means only or he fails because there is nothing else he can use to prove what he wants to prove unless he is always right in front of their senses so that people could be constantly reassured. Since we do not constantly sense God therefore we know he can only use his revelation and creation to win over our trust in him. This is why he must do things in a way that we do not and end up confused and in chaos. In short one is trustworthy only if one is constantly consistent in his mindset, attitude and behaviour but if not then one cannot be trusted no matter what.

If God did not give things their permanent characteristics or properties or qualities we could not say anything about anything at all or do anything with anything at all. It is because if things were done are allowed to be or happen haphazardly or randomly then we could not know anything about them at all so we could not say what they are or what they are going to do etc etc. I mean if I said one thing one day and another the other day and yet another on yet another day about the very same issue then how will your mind accept me trustworthy? You will end up confused about what I have been saying. This is why God set up permanent laws so that people could discover characteristics of things with certainty and therefore be bale to use them. This is why we know this is iron and that is gold or that is orange and this is apple.

It is because God has set up this world to be what it is and to work the way it does on permanent basis, we can predict our past as well as our future with reasonable certainty. Try and make things unstable and then see if you are going or coming. If anything stops working the way it should we will end up confused. Anarchy or disorder or lawlessness or chaos do not let people function at all. We know how God works therefor if anyone claims anything against that we know s/he is lying for sure.

In the quran words used like INALLAH ALA KULLI SHAI IN QADEER are translated as God has power over all things. What they means is God has set measure to ensure proper operation of things in a controlled manner so that his purpose is served according to his plan by things ie they do not happen haphazardly or randomly or unpredictably. It is just like we have a normal destructive explosion and a controlled explosion. There is a big difference between the two. It does not affect our ability of choice because we can do whatever we want within God set limits for us. In our own human societies we say we have freedom to do anything we want but within set up societal customs or traditions or laws etc etc.

regards and all the best.

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:02 pm
by Mughal
manfred wrote:Say a woman reading Tarot cards, for example, how should she be executed?


Dear manfred, each and every person who has been found breaking the law must face related penalty as decides by law of the land after conviction has been ensured through court of law. The same is true about kingdom of God. People who make fools of other people or manipulate other people abusively are criminals. This is why rulers, money lender and mullas are enemies of deen of God because that is exactly what they do.

manfred wrote:Was Mohammed ever bewitched?


If we look at islam as a governing system of kingdom of God instead of a make belief system with some useless ritual practices then we need to realise what was going on between messengers of God and their opponents. Opponents wanted to keep things in this world the way they were and messengers of God wanted to change them. The question is, what was going on in this world before God started sending his messengers and books to guide people towards a best possible future? People were living like animals in a jungle ie they were confused and in chaos not knowing how to live in this world properly. Why did that happen? Because God evolved things from each other and things learned their behaviours from each other through interaction with each other within the given environment.

As human species came about they also did exactly the same because they did not know anything better either. However as human beings evolved to a stage where at they could start benefiting from guidance of God, he sent them his guidance through one of their own people who was most intelligent from among them. The very first of these messengers was adam and the very last muhammad.

If we read the story of adam and his people and iblees and his people in the quran things become clear. God told all people through adam to bow down to God's law along with adam. All people along with their tribal chiefs accepted living by law of God except iblees and his people. This started the whole struggle between rulers or chiefs of people at a time and any messenger of God.

Before this event we are told people carried out a lot of bloodshed through tribal wars and in order to stop all that adam was told by God to tell them live like a family ie a human brotherhood under God. So all accepted living like that save iblees. He refused because he did not want to lose his privileges as a chief of his people. This separated people into two main groups ie people of God and people of Satan ever since. These people always struggled against each other through out the world trying to win over each other to their side by using various ideas and practices. Party of rebel leader or shaitan always used harmful and destructive tricks and mechanism to engage party of God and party of God always tried to use revelations of God to help people see reality of party of shaitan and to show them the proper way to live in this world properly. I have already explained in my other posts why God created people and things this way eg why people are created babies knowing nothing at all etc etc.

This is what people were doing to each other in time of final messengers of God as well ie party of shaitan (poeple with harmful and destructive mindset, attitude and behaviour) tried to trick messenger of God as well, as well as his supporters. They did this so that they could inflict damage upon his movement right form the start just like adam and his company or party of people were targeted by shatain and his company or party. There was no supernatural intervention at any time by God to save any people supernaturally instead he told them how they could save themselves from harmful and destructive people by way of educating masses out of clutches of people with harmful and destructive mindsets, attitudes and behaviours.

In surah 114 AL-NAAS or ANNAAS etc people are told if you want to escape harm and destruction by hands of each other then bring about a kingdom based upon guidance of God as a proper human community or in short be one under God as a brotherhood of humanity to ensure well being of each other. Don't put ideas into each other's minds for exploiting each other abusively for personal gains at each other's expense. So when people will become one under God in a kingdom based upon guidance of God harms and destructions of people by hands of each other will stop and rivers of milk and honey will start flowing as people will work hard to the best of their God given abilities to ensure well being of each other in an organised and regulated or controlled manner.

There is nothing in the quran which makes no sense provided people educate themselves to the stage needed for proper understanding of the quranic text in its own proper context.

If we look at dialogues between moses and pharoah in the quran, pharoah tells his people moses is trying to drive you out of your kingdom by his SIHR=tricks (magic of moses). What was magic of moses? His God given guidance which he explained to people in such a way that opened their eyes as to what pharoah and his people were doing to them and why or how. That is how moses exposed tricks and manipulation of pharoah and his trickster chiefs and supporters. Find out what words used in the quran mean. Deen of islam is a comprehensive ideology from God for mankind for living in this world properly that encompasses human society, its politics, its culture, its economics etc etc.

regards and all the best.

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:30 pm
by manfred
manfred wrote:
Say a woman reading Tarot cards, for example, how should she be executed?


Mughal replied:

Dear manfred, each and every person who has been found breaking the law must face related penalty as decides by law of the land after conviction has been ensured through court of law. The same is true about kingdom of God. People who make fools of other people or manipulate other people abusively are criminals. This is why rulers, money lender and mullas are enemies of deen of God because that is exactly what they do.


Whoa.... a lot of here.


First, a tarot card reader is little more than a fair ground attraction. If you want to believe what she says, isn't that your decision? You are saying a woman who reads card deserves an as yet by you not specified punishment. According to the Qur'an what is this punishment?


Then you say

People who make fools of other people or manipulate other people abusively are criminals.


Mohammed did that. So we agree he is a criminal?

This is why rulers, money lender and mullas are enemies of deen of God


All rulers? Mohammed also was a ruler....

Mullas? What do they do that Mohammed did not do?

And money lenders? People need sometimes to borrow money for things. If you use a service should you not pay for that? Say your washing machine is broken. If you have no ready cash, would you do all the washing in the sink? (let me guess, you would ask your wife to do that, after she cooked your dinner, right?).

How is a money lender making fools of people? He offers a service at a price. You take it or leave it, as you see fit.

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:58 pm
by Hombre
mughal
Here we go again - more mind numbing post. Another talk-down from our friend - lecturing us here how to live "properly" - alas mughal!

Your criticism of "money lenders" indicate - rather vividly, your poor understanding of basic economy. Money is an asset much like owning a taxi, or factory designed to earn a decent living to its owner. As an owener, you would not ask your passengers to pay only for cost of the petrol. nor would sell any product at exact same price which cost you to produce it. Because soon you will go bankrupt.
The Same is with money. The lender needs to make enough living to feed his family AND have enough to lend to others.

You write:
People were living like animals in a jungle ie they were confused and in chaos not knowing how to live in this world properly.
Intersting. Did the Zoroastrians, Persians, Byzantines were living in a jungle, or were "confused"? No they were not confused. The one who is confused is you and other fundementlaist who think like you.

You keep citing Moses & the Pharaohs "from the Quran". When are you going to realize that Islam is the-johnny-come-late - 3rd in line among the 3 monastic religions. Why don't you go the the true source? - The Hebrew Bible. Read the original and complete stories of those events. After all, 70% of the Quran is borrowed and/or plagiarized from the HB. (The rest from NT & Pagans in Mekkah).

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:41 am
by Mughal
I think to begin with we human beings need to realise a few things at least regarding ideologies when we talk about them eg in case of islam we need to know what actual deen of islam or islamic governing system is, how it can be implemented if at all and why should it be implemented. Likewise we need to do in case of any system already in place to see why it needs to be replaced if at all or how can it be replaced if at all.

If we have little or no knowledge about any particular system then we cannot talk about it as properly therefore as effectively as we should instead we will be wasting our own time as well as that of others due to our ignorance about the system. In fact our ignorance about the system ideologies will lead us into all sorts of problems instead of solutions we may be looking for.

These points are of vital importance because otherwise we are going to inflict plenty of harm and destruction upon each other by supporting or opposing ideologies without any sense as to why we are doing so. Our random choices and actions will bring some good but after a lot of harm and destruction to humanity by our own hands.

Basically there are only 3 situations that face us about ideologies a) we have a proper way of life for living in this world about which we ourselves are sure beyond a shadow of doubt due to studying the way of life in depth and width and can help others to be sure by way of informing and educating them.

b)We have no proper way of life for living in this world and we are sure about it ourselves due to studying each of the ideologies in depth and in width and we can help others know about it for sure.

c)We are ignorant therefore confused about either of ideologies because we did not study either of the ideologies in depth and width to arrive at proper conclusion about them so we have no idea what to do about them ie either to support one or the other or oppose one or the other etc.

For anyone who is really interested in discussing governing ideologies these points will help one to decide things for oneself effectively. So before raising any question against any ideology question yourself as to what do you know about the subject you are going to discuss. It is because if one has not thought oneself about something then one can neither convince anyone about it nor can be convinced by anyone about it. Discussions need people who may lack knowledge about things but at least must be willing to listen others and learn from them and be able to think and figure out the truth or the right from that. This will make discussion fruitful instead of wastage of time and energy.

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:46 am
by Mughal
manfred wrote:
manfred wrote:
Say a woman reading Tarot cards, for example, how should she be executed?


Mughal replied:

Dear manfred, each and every person who has been found breaking the law must face related penalty as decides by law of the land after conviction has been ensured through court of law. The same is true about kingdom of God. People who make fools of other people or manipulate other people abusively are criminals. This is why rulers, money lender and mullas are enemies of deen of God because that is exactly what they do.


Whoa.... a lot of here.


First, a tarot card reader is little more than a fair ground attraction. If you want to believe what she says, isn't that your decision? You are saying a woman who reads card deserves an as yet by you not specified punishment. According to the Qur'an what is this punishment?


Then you say

People who make fools of other people or manipulate other people abusively are criminals.


Mohammed did that. So we agree he is a criminal?

This is why rulers, money lender and mullas are enemies of deen of God


All rulers? Mohammed also was a ruler....

Mullas? What do they do that Mohammed did not do?

And money lenders? People need sometimes to borrow money for things. If you use a service should you not pay for that? Say your washing machine is broken. If you have no ready cash, would you do all the washing in the sink? (let me guess, you would ask your wife to do that, after she cooked your dinner, right?).

How is a money lender making fools of people? He offers a service at a price. You take it or leave it, as you see fit.


Dear manfred, when we discuss deen of islam we are not discussing what is in the books written by people about deen of islam but what is in the quran and how can it be explained within the proper context of the quranic text in light of real world realities. Only if one can talk about the quran in that context his point against deen of islam can be considered valid even of one is not even a muslim. On the other hand if one talks about the quran randomly without having proper regard for its proper context then his talk about the quran or deen of islam is invalid even if one claims to be a muslim. Not only that even if whole of muslim ummah says or does something against the quran yet claims it is according to the quran or deen of islam it is still invalid according to the quran itself. The quran makes it absolutely clear that it must be understood properly and acted upon faithfully.

What is needed for understanding the quran properly? First of all reasonable understanding about this world. Why? Because the quran is the book of deen of islam ie a book that tells how people should live in this world properly for their unity, peace, progress and prosperity. Can one live in this world properly if one has no idea about this world as to how it works and how to fit within its working or how to make it work for oneself properly? No, not a chance. So in light of the quran a muslim can only be that person who has at least embarked on this journey of studying the world. The proper understanding of the quran is secondary and the reason is, without having learned sense of making proper sense of things one can never understand anything at all let alone understand the quran properly. This is why for a person who claims to be a muslim understanding of this world and the quran both are of vital importance in their own way. In this light one can clearly judge whether a person who claims to be a muslim is really a muslim or is one just paying lip service to quran and islam and making fool of himself and others.

As for muhammad the messenger of Allah, the quran tells us he made odd mistakes but despite all that he was a man of great character. The quran tells people to support each other in constructive works for ensuring well being of humanity and do not support each other in destructive works which harm or destroy humanity. The quran repeatedly tells us human beings in various ways, encourage each other in doing what is good for mankind and stop each other from doing what causes harm or destruction to humanity.

The question we need to ponder upon deeply is, how to judge a person whether he is over all a good person or a bad person? Human beings are born not knowing a thing. They cannot learn without making a lot of mistakes along the way. In light of these facts what should be the criterion for judging a good person from a bad person? This is why even God has to overlook people for their genuine mistakes which are part of learning process or human nature ie human errors. In the eyes of God only that person is a criminal who did not learn things and wasted his God given abilities or who misused his God given abilities. In the eyes of God by way of mistakes or human errors even if a person ends up killing many people he has done nothing wrong at all because he did not know better despite trying to the best of his God given abilities. The quran says, people will be questioned about their God given abilities as to how they used them ie did they use then appropriately or not. Those who will have done as told by God will be fine and those who will not have done what God told them and will have done the opposite instead will be in deep trouble with God. This is why all must do their genuine best according to their God given abilities and God will be pleased with them on the day of final judgement regardless what they call themselves in this world before others or whatever others call them. This is why all people need to be very careful when they talk about God and his scriptures and messengers or missionaries etc. Anyone who is deliberately misleading people knows what s/he is doing and God knows it as well. A person who is sincere with oneself never does that because one has to face oneself before facing God.

regards and all the best

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:13 pm
by manfred
Dear manfred, when we discuss deen of islam we are not discussing what is in the books written by people about deen of islam but what is in the quran and how can it be explained within the proper context of the quranic text in light of real world realities.


You get the "proper context" by removing all the context?

As for muhammad the messenger of Allah, the quran tells us he made odd mistakes but despite all that he was a man of great character.


... and you know this because Mohammed said so in the Qur'an?

And of course you are quite sure about this because you will ignore all other sources about Mohammed?

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:35 am
by Mughal
manfred wrote:
manfred wrote:
Say a woman reading Tarot cards, for example, how should she be executed?


Mughal replied:

Dear manfred, each and every person who has been found breaking the law must face related penalty as decides by law of the land after conviction has been ensured through court of law. The same is true about kingdom of God. People who make fools of other people or manipulate other people abusively are criminals. This is why rulers, money lender and mullas are enemies of deen of God because that is exactly what they do.


Whoa.... a lot of here.


First, a tarot card reader is little more than a fair ground attraction. If you want to believe what she says, isn't that your decision? You are saying a woman who reads card deserves an as yet by you not specified punishment. According to the Qur'an what is this punishment?


Then you say

People who make fools of other people or manipulate other people abusively are criminals.


Mohammed did that. So we agree he is a criminal?

This is why rulers, money lender and mullas are enemies of deen of God


All rulers? Mohammed also was a ruler....

Mullas? What do they do that Mohammed did not do?

And money lenders? People need sometimes to borrow money for things. If you use a service should you not pay for that? Say your washing machine is broken. If you have no ready cash, would you do all the washing in the sink? (let me guess, you would ask your wife to do that, after she cooked your dinner, right?).

How is a money lender making fools of people? He offers a service at a price. You take it or leave it, as you see fit.


Dear manfred, muhammad was not a ruler but a community servant according to rule of law of God. There is only and only one ruler in deen of islam and that is God. All people are a brotherhood of humanity under God in deen of islam. This is why anyone who criticises anyone must at least learn things before talking about them or one is going to make plenty of mistakes due to baseless assumptions.

Muhammad never used people abusively and took all steps within his power to ensure well being of people. You need to realise things take time ie rome was not built in a day. Muhammad started his mission and it took him time to reach where he reached and along the way he had to deal with many issues which arose under the circumstances. Any movement has to go through similar situations and stages to reach its conclusion or completion.

I never said muhammad never harmed or killed anyone never took part in a battle or war but only in the context explained in detail in my other posts on this forum. It is not possible to not to deal with anti social elements. This is why all countries have police and armies etc. You cannot manage even a small company never mind a kingdom without rules and regulations etc.

The question you need to ponder over is, what are you really trying to defend by being needlessly critical of deen of islam without any real basis? So kindly try to learn things about deen of islam as I have explained and then see if you have anything of real concern to raise so that we could together solve the problem. None can defend atheism or agnosticism nor any other way of life against deen of islam as told in the quran by the quran in its proper context. Not even mullas can defend their nonsense about deen of islam.

Educated people therefore must use their God given brains and senses appropriately because one day they will have to face their creator regardless they like it or not. Not only that but none will go through this life without a a lot of painful suffering in confusion unless one repents and reforms.

The quran therefore deen of islam deserves appropriate attention of all people. So long as one gives it a good go then one can be satisfied one has played his/her part. Each person knows what one is doing and none can fool God even if one can fool oneself.

As for people who are trying to make a living by wrong means, it is there own fault to be in that situation unless they are not aware of deen of islam. However if they are aware of deen of islam then question arises, have they played their part effectively to help them live properly in this world? If not then they have none to blame other than themselves for being indifferent. It is because deen of islam is all about welfare and well being of all human beings as much as humanity possible with full support and help of each other.

regards and all the best.

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:42 am
by Mughal
manfred wrote:
Dear manfred, when we discuss deen of islam we are not discussing what is in the books written by people about deen of islam but what is in the quran and how can it be explained within the proper context of the quranic text in light of real world realities.


You get the "proper context" by removing all the context?

As for muhammad the messenger of Allah, the quran tells us he made odd mistakes but despite all that he was a man of great character.


... and you know this because Mohammed said so in the Qur'an?

And of course you are quite sure about this because you will ignore all other sources about Mohammed?


Dear manfred, I am not removing context but explaining that the quran is AL-FURQAAN the criterion between two opposing ways of life. So it has to be interpreted in the context of its own. Any other context will introduce many contradictions within its message.

I do not say muhammad is man of great character because the quran says it but look at the way of life he is talking about. Only a great human being will tell us to live by this way of life and give up all other ways of life. You need to try and start understanding my points rather than talking in isolation due to your preconceived ideas which you have learned from mullas and their critics.

regards and all the best.

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:59 am
by Mughal
Hombre wrote:mughal
Here we go again - more mind numbing post. Another talk-down from our friend - lecturing us here how to live "properly" - alas mughal!

Your criticism of "money lenders" indicate - rather vividly, your poor understanding of basic economy. Money is an asset much like owning a taxi, or factory designed to earn a decent living to its owner. As an owener, you would not ask your passengers to pay only for cost of the petrol. nor would sell any product at exact same price which cost you to produce it. Because soon you will go bankrupt.
The Same is with money. The lender needs to make enough living to feed his family AND have enough to lend to others.

You write:
People were living like animals in a jungle ie they were confused and in chaos not knowing how to live in this world properly.
Intersting. Did the Zoroastrians, Persians, Byzantines were living in a jungle, or were "confused"? No they were not confused. The one who is confused is you and other fundementlaist who think like you.

You keep citing Moses & the Pharaohs "from the Quran". When are you going to realize that Islam is the-johnny-come-late - 3rd in line among the 3 monastic religions. Why don't you go the the true source? - The Hebrew Bible. Read the original and complete stories of those events. After all, 70% of the Quran is borrowed and/or plagiarized from the HB. (The rest from NT & Pagans in Mekkah).


Dear hombre, I challenge all to prove the current ruling systems and economic systems are the best possible against the quranic ruling and economic system. First you tell me what the quranic ruling and economic systems are and why they are good or bad in your view in comparison to current systems? I have already explained in detail in my other posts what deen of islam is in light of the quran when the quran is looked at in its proper context in light of real world realities.

Yes, all people are people of jungle till they meet criterion set for them by God to be called proper human beings. No doubt God created people to become great human beings but it is going to take them time and a lot of very hard work to be where they ought to be. Moreover if people will help each other learn things quickly then they will reach the God required standard quicker but if they will hinder each other or will keep on hindering each other then obviously such things will make them take much longer time than needed as well as a lot of needless painful suffering by hands of each other.

regards and all the best.

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:15 pm
by sum
Hello Mughal

I have twice asked you if you believe that the miracles in the Bible are real or not but you have still not told me what you believe.

Please tell me. It only requires a "yes" or "no".

sum

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:32 am
by Mughal
old urdu lectures with english subtitles.






Re: Magic

PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:17 pm
by sum
Hello Mughal

There are two questions that I have asked which you refuse to answer. Why is that? I will ask yet again.

Are the miracles in the Bible factual or falsehoods? What do you believe?

Why do you prefer the "deen" of Islam to the "deen" of Christianity?

Please do answer my questions without a long screed of irrelevance.

sum

Re: Magic

PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:45 pm
by Mughal
sum wrote:Hello Mughal

There are two questions that I have asked which you refuse to answer. Why is that? I will ask yet again.

Are the miracles in the Bible factual or falsehoods? What do you believe?

Why do you prefer the "deen" of Islam to the "deen" of Christianity?

Please do answer my questions without a long screed of irrelevance.

sum


Dear sum, as I already explained there are only two acts of God for which we have no explanation a)creation by God out of nothingness and b)revelation of information by God to human beings for informing them about things they can never find out ever all by themselves.

Think about it, can you ever find our about your origin all by yourself with reasonable certainty? No, never. God told us in the quran about our origin so that we do not fall into identity crisis and die confused. God told us where we are going to end up after we leave this world or what is going to happen to us after we die. God told us why he created us and the rest of the universe or the creation ie he told us about his purpose for our creation and creation of rest of the things. Not only that he also told us how to live in this world properly, why? So that his purpose for creating all this and human beings could become fulfilled. This is why islam is addeen not a mazhab because way of life is about living in this world for fulfilling the purpose for which God created everything.

We are created with ability to be able to judge between truth and falsehood, right and wrong, good and bad, things which can benefit us and things which can bring harm or destruction to us. However we are not created with ability to set absolute standard for such things this is why he revealed to us what is true and why it is true and what is false and why it is false. He told us what is right and why it is right to have or to use or to do as well as what is wrong for us to have or use or do and why that is the case.

Just think about it, how much knowledge is needed for doing all this, why? Because to give whole humanity advice about all these things needs knowledge beyond capability of humanity. Let me try and explain this by an example. Suppose I want to buy a car but I do not know anything about cars, what should I do? If I am clever enough and have learned what to do in such a case then I will look for someone who in my knowledge knows about cars. So if I want to learn to live properly in this world then it is necessary for me to go to someone who knows what this world is all about so that he could advise me about solutions of the the problems I am facing after my birth in this world. Likewise humanity as a whole has no choice but to turn to God for his guidance because he is the only one who can guide it properly due to being all knowing about this world as well as humanity. So can you see how hard it is for me or you or any other human beings to advise rest of human beings as to how to live in this world properly?

This is why only the quran challenges all human beings in this world to come up with a way of life that is better than the one that is told about in the quran if you do not want to live by God advised way of life. This is the undeniable proof that the quran is from God because of what has been explained therefore the quran could not be produced by any human being ever because no human being has the needed knowledge for telling rest of people how to live in this world properly.

To understand the quran properly one has to go through four stages of realisation or awareness. First stage is from one's birth till the day one starts wondering about the creation and its origin etc. Second stage is when one turns to religion assuming it explains things one is looking for. Third stage is when one leaves religion because it does not and it cannot fulfil needs of humanity because religion is not from God nor about telling people how to live in this world properly. Religion at most is only a jumble of human thoughts put together by some people to explain things to a degree about God based upon various human assumptions alone. No doubt religion creates in human mind awareness about God or creator and sustainer of this whole jumble of creation be it all nonsense therefore people leave religion altogether or keep a loose connection with religion and turn to secularism.

Once people have reached secularism stage because they assume thereby they can solve their worldly problems of living in this world they soon find out that things still do not work out nor make the sense the way they should. Now there is no way forward for them other than to look for something from God ie a some kind of sign or message from God. This is the time when people may turn to the quran for guidance or die confused. That is how some reach the fourth stage of realisation or awareness. Once anyone reaches the quran then one has to face further problems that are quran related ie how to study the quran properly. In other words one has to learn right way for understanding the quran properly. This can be done in two ways a)find someone knowledgeable and let him or her explain the right way for understanding the quran properly that works or b) find out the right way for understanding the quran properly from within the quranic text itself. If one is lucky enough to find a knowledgeable person then that cuts down time and effort as well as a lot of anguish and suffering etc quite a bit but if one has to do it all by oneself then it is an uphill struggle but one needs to be steadfast enough to make it to the top and one will because God does help those who help themselves.

A point which one must take seriously when one studies the quran is, one must not let religious concepts or secularist concepts interfere with it rather one must study the quran in such a way that one ends up with concept the quran wishes to teach a person. One may say how is that possible? It is possible because any wrong concept will not let one understand the quranic text properly because it will introduce confusion. However any concept which clarifies things will be right concept. I have explained these things already on this forum in my various posts here and there. Take the concepts of five pillars of islam. If one look at them in context of islam as a mazhab or religion then they become absurd but if one looks at them in context of islam as a deen then they make perfect sense. One can also look at my explanation about jinns in this thread for example or magic or miracles etc etc. Once we have right concepts then we do not have problems any more. This is how we come to know we have interpreted the quranic text correctly.

Coming to your question, as for miracles in your imaginations, no they cannot happen in this world no matter who claims about miracles of that sort. It is because after God has brought about this world from absolute nothingness he set it up according to his own physical laws on basis of cause and effect chains ie there is no supernatural intervention in this world by God as far as I understand the quran. in this world God does all things by means of interactions of things or things are set up so by God that they work towards fulfilling the purpose for which he created them. In short jesus was not born through supernatural intervention and he is dead long ago and he did not rise from dead after three days etc etc. Muhammad showed no such miracles nor did anyone else and none can do that in this world as it is. So all claims by all people or about any particular person of this nature are utterly false.

You may now say but the quran says this and that or the other, no the quran does not say any of the things people claim regarding supernatural interventions. Learn to look into the quranic text rationally but also properly in its own proper context so that you could make proper sense of what it is actually saying. Think about why different people are in different self created situations. For example people who are not bothered with learning things at all are not even self aware much nor much aware about what is going on in the rest of the human world. They are poorest of all human beings and suffer the consequences for their mindset, attitude and behaviour towards leaning things. The case is very similar of those people who are deeply religious because they run after God and forget about learning how to live in this world properly with rest of human beings. Then we come to secularists who forget God and pay all their attention to enjoying whatever they can make of their life forgetting about anyone else. All these stages of development are terribly dangerous for humanity because while human beings are in any of these stages of development they either do nothing at all for themselves and others or they do so much for themselves they become a danger for rest of human beings.

The only real stage of human development that can ensure well being of all human beings is when people come to way of life that is revealed by God for them to ensure their well being with help and full support of each other. So if people want to make this world a paradise for themselves instead of a hell hole then they have no choice but to start studying the quran properly as it deserves to be studied. This of course needs a lot of learning for the time being because there are not many people who know the quran this good. However as the quran becomes a common knowledge in time to come things will start picking up momentum. Till then people will have to learn to put up with all kinds of problems and difficulties.

This explains to a great degree why people are suffering painfully in the world needlessly and why some people can never come out of that painful suffering unless they change their mindsets, attitudes and behaviours which is impossible to change without proper education and training. No people who live like animals can ever come out of terrible life they have unless they learn things they need to learn in order to be what they ought to be. Likewise no religious society can ever be expected to rise out of poverty due to its wrong concepts about God and this world as well as how it should live in this world properly. No secular society no matter how good can go beyond a certain limit set by negative competition in its development due to fierce negative competition between its own people as well as between it and rest of similar societies.

This is where in comes deen of islam based upon proper understanding of the quran which can take people out of their darkness of ignorance ie negativity into the light of knowledge ie positivity. It shows humanity how it should live in this world properly and thereby turn this world into a living paradise for itself with help and full support of each other.

People say we study language or maths or sciences or philosophy or politics or this or that and the other but the real question they need to ask themselves is why? The real answer is because they are confused about themselves right from the day they are born so they want to gather information as much as possible in order to get out of that terrible situation of confusion. The quran takes them out of that confusion but they are not much bothered with studying it properly as they should so that it could lead them to be where they ought to be. It is because people are confused about themselves and this world so they do not know how to fit in it properly or how to live in it properly this is why they keep learning things but they also keep ignoring the very book which tells them things they can never find out all by themselves any other way ever.

I hope I have explained things for you in a bit more detail this time.

regards and all the best.

Most of the questions about deen of islam and the quran have been already answered by past scholars of deen of islam but their works are not available in english language yet. We muslims do very little about actual deen of islam and also very late after nonmuslims teach us some good lessons the hard way.

For example open the quran and read surah 73 and listen to following video with subtitles.