The first Muslim

Prove Islam is from God, why it is the 'One True Religion'.
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manfred
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The first Muslim

Post by manfred »

SAM, eagle, Zaheer, or any takers....

a) can we agree that there can only be one "first" of any particular thing.... First in the race to the moon for example? The first man to eat a chicken? The first to print a book?
b) then who would you say was the first Muslim, according to the Qu'ran?
c) is the reply you gave for b also what you yourself hold to be accurate, in your own view? Is that a mere belief or di you base that on some information, such as historical sources?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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Fernando
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Re: The first Muslim

Post by Fernando »

d) can we please - at least at first - stick clearly to Manfred's question, which relates ONLY to the Koran? Our Koran-only members, at least, should be able to do that.
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

Eagle
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Re: The first Muslim

Post by Eagle »

Who was the first prophet in both Islam and Judaism?

By the way AWWAL, derived from Hamza-W-L means ultimate in general. This includes the meaning of "first" in the sense of the first in a race or a precursor, as well as in the sense of foremost, other examples of this use are found in 2:41etc

Eagle
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Re: The first Muslim

Post by Eagle »

The Quran uses the terms Muslim, Islam and other derivatives in both a generic and specific sense.

Submission to the Divine Will, willingly or not, is according to the Quran, an observable reality in the universe down to our inner selves, since the origin of things until all are commanded and made to disintegrate and resurrect.

The Divine Will governing the spiritual realm follows the same pattern, with a nuance regarding a specific entity, the humans, that their spiritual submission must be a willful process, hence the Quranic statement that the only din/way/religion acceptable to Allah, is the volontary self-submission (which is the literal meaning of Islam) to Him 3:19,2:127-130. The term Islam, and its derivatives (muslim, aslama), is used throughout the Quran to denote one's full and willful adoption (metaphorically "the face" in classical Arabic) of the divine will 2:112"whoever submits his face (aslama wajhahu) to Allah and he is the doer of good (to others)..". To further corroborate, those claiming to adhere in faith to the way prescribed in the Quran are told to further 2:208"enter into the silm/the volontary self-surrender". Being a "Muslim" thus transcends the simple label as understood nowadays, it entails subordinating all aspects of one's life to the system taught in the final revelation of the divine will, the Quran, for it to be labelled a true authentic Islam. That is the original meaning of the word even when the Quran was being revealed, and its "institutionalization" as a label specific to the followers of the Prophet Muhammad is a post-Quranic development.

With the Quran, the path to volontary self-servitude to the divine will, has been defined is such a clear way that no compulsion is necessary for it to be adopted by a reasonably person 2:256,18:29 and will inevitably lead, as it has been doing since it came to the world and will continue doing, to the entering of people into its fold like waves upon waves 110:1-3.

Any other appellation is nothing but a distortion of this simple originality taught from Adam to Muhammad. When concluding in sura anbiya the stories of some of the most eminent prophets and pious personalities, the passage ends with a statement that these people that preceded, including the newly established nation of the last prophet are in fact a single nation with the same ultimate aims, despite the apparent disconnect between those that claim spiritual affiliation to them 21:92-3.

No prophet came between Ibrahim and Muhammad but that called their people to be upright/hanif in their submission to God 10:72,84,98:5. In pre-Islamic times, the term hanif had a strict monotheistic connotation, was used in contrast to those that abhorred polytheism, but also who rejected the God incarnate of the Christians on one side and the clear monolatrous inclination of Judaism. It applied to those who exerted themselves to return to their original predisposition to uprightness as exemplified by Ibrahim. Like him, the prophets that followed him were all voluntary self-submitters, steadfastly constant on the path of servitude to God until their last breath 2:132-3,5:44,12:101,27:44 (the Queen of Sheba voluntarily submits). All belonged to the same community, under the same purpose 3:44,21:92,23:52-3, preaching monotheism 42:13.
They are not responsible for the perversion of their message by their followers, including potentialy the followers of the last prophet 42:14,21:93,23:53"But they cut off their religion among themselves into sects, each part rejoicing in that which is with them".

These prophets all followed the same pattern of spiritual thought, hence the necessity for anyone to reject any proposition that clearly goes against the re-establishment of that way 3:83-5.

No appelation therefore is of any importance in Islam, so long as those claiming to belong to a certain group, follow the pure, unadultered spiritual pattern spoken of above 2:62,5:69.

The appellations of Jewry or Christianity came into being after the time of the Patriarchs, and long after the times of Moses or Jesus 2:140. The very early few ones that believed in Jesus, and their contemporaries that followed in their footsteps werent even known as Christians at first but as Nazarenes (Quran calls them nasara from nusra/help in reference to the small band of followers that stood by Jesus) and were strict followers of the Torah and its laws, as Jesus enjoined on his community. Then the Quran addresses the Israelites as those who literally 62:6"became Jews" because what Moses and the other Israelite prophets really taught was essentially Islam, or lit. volontary self-submission (to the divine will).
Despite their clear spiritual failures and consequent divine disapproval and severe destructions, those most conceited in their spiritual and racial label were, and still are, the Jews. In the NT, Jesus and John the Baptist harshly reprimended them for that attitude, and the Quran, to remove the delusion of those who think they would ultimately be favored by God above all other people in this life and the next due to their ancestry or on account of the righteousness of their forefathers 2:80,111,3:24,5:18 challenged them 2:94,62:6"if you think that you are the friends of Allah to the exclusion of other people, then invoke death if you are truthful" but surely 2:96"they will never invoke it on account of what their hands have sent before". They know and are fully aware of their failure as a community bound by a momentous covenant with God, and thus know that should they wish for death and consequently meet with their Lord, He will take them to account collectively as per the terms of the covenant, just as He demonstrated in this very world.

When those labelling themselves Jews, Christians or any other name, persist in following corrupted spiritual notions alien to that pattern of the prophets, despite receiving proper explanations of their errors and those of their predecessors, they are termed followers of "nothing good". They arent even upholding their own scriptures in sincerity 5:68"Say: O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Torah and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord". The Torah and Injeel attest to "that which is revealed to you from your Lord" ie the Quran. To reject the Quran, a revelation interconnected with the previous ones and coming from the same Source, which in addition guards, protects, revives the pattern of the prophets, therefore means to deny their own scriptures that attest to its veracity, more particularily of the one that carried and propagated it 6:20"Those whom We have given the Book recognize him as they recognize their sons; (as for) those who have lost their souls, they will not believe".

Those on the other hand who recognized the Quran upon hearing it as attesting to the truth of their scriptures and the pattern of the prophets are the 3:113-115"upright party; they recite Allah's communications in the nighttime and they adore (Him). They believe in Allah and the last day, and they enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong and they strive with one another in hastening to good deeds, and those are among the good. And whatever good they do, they shall not be denied it, and Allah knows those who guard (against evil)". So when they 5:83"hear what has been revealed to the messenger you will see their eyes overflowing with tears on account of the truth that they recognize; they say: Our Lord! we believe, so write us down with the witnesses (of truth)"."
They 3:199"believe in Allah and (in) that which has been revealed to you and (in) that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before Allah; they do not sell the signs of Allah for a small price; these it is that have their reward with their Lord".

This verse 3:199 stresses the obligation in believing in the Quran for them to be believers in their own scriptures, as it confirms the prophecies in their books and restores the unaltered truth.
They are mainly the learned men among the Israelites 26:197,29:47 firm in knowledge as well as those among the common masses who adhere to their scriptures with sincerity and the best of their ability 4:162. They are those who overcame the stiff-neckdness and arrogance of their people, effortlessly and naturally recognizing the truth 46:10. Same is the case with the learned and austere and sincere believers among the Christians 5:82-4, and who will consequently be rewarded appropriately 28:52-4.

The Quran says that 3:110,28:52"those whom We gave the Book before it, they are believers in it" as testimony to the conversions of Jews and Christians in Muhammad's lifetime and as a prophecy witnessed today. The image of God literally giving them the Book is a praise of their merit, a metonym for them having been granted wisdom and knowledge, because of their willingness and openness for guidance. To this effect the Quran quotes them testifying to their entire submission to their revealed scriptures, even before the revelation of the Quran 28:53"surely we were submitters (lit. Muslims) before this". As stated above, the principle of being a "Muslim", volontarily subservient to the divine will, is a feature of the rightly guided prior to the term becoming the sole prerogative of Muhammad's followers. These are the ones to be sought for confirmation of the Quran's veracity, among the followers of previous scriptures 10:94.

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manfred
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Re: The first Muslim

Post by manfred »

Eagle all that to avoid a question? Who DOES THE QUR'AN SAY was the the FIRST MUSLIM. The answer to such a question is the name of a person, not a huge post of general this and that.... I did ask nothing about "prophets" or roots of words or "submission" and whatever. Who was the first? Hmmm? "Muslim" is a binary term, you either are a Muslim or not. You cannot be "a bit" or one, or "in a sense" a Muslim.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Eagle
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Re: The first Muslim

Post by Eagle »

Of course none can be partially Muslim, whether those followers of the correct path prior to the coming of the final Ishmaelite prophet or those after him. This was explained in the previous post.

Nobody in the Quran is qualified with the words "first Muslim" in the sense of initial Muslim although several are said to be the first in the sense of foremost Muslims.

The initial Muslim is defined in the Quran as being Adam, the initial prophet. See the previous detailed post.

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Hombre
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Re: The first Muslim

Post by Hombre »

Eagle wrote:Of course none can be partially Muslim, whether those followers of the correct path prior to the coming of the final Ishmaelite prophet or those after him. This was explained in the previous post.

Nobody in the Quran is qualified with the words "first Muslim" in the sense of initial Muslim although several are said to be the first in the sense of foremost Muslims.

The initial Muslim is defined in the Quran as being Adam, the initial prophet. See the previous detailed post.
The original story of Adam & that of the creation in 6 days - all were told & was documented in the Hebrew Bible some 1500 BCE & validated by Christianity & the New Testament. Islam was founded by Muhammad only in 610 ACE - some 2000 years later. Not a minute sooner or later. No "Ishmaelites" & no batikh. Ishamal (ישמעאל ) has nothing to do with Muhammad - nor Islam. No one in his right mind believes that - being illiterate, Muhammad knew the exact name, birthplace and identity of his "ancestor" who lived some 2000 years earlier. Since his mother had abandoned him at age of 2 due to economic hardship - Prophet Muhammad couldn't and didn't know who was his great-grandfather - let alone Ismael.

It is time - for god sake, for decent Muslims to get up and face realities. Recognize their chronological order of historical pecking order as the 3rd inline. Stop lying to themselves and mislead entire generations for past 1400 years. Muslims can tell all those 1000-night Arabian fairy tale only to other innocent Muslims. They however convince no one else.

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manfred
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Re: The first Muslim

Post by manfred »

In fact, the Qur'an, mentions several characters to be the "first" of the Muslims. No amount of smoke and mirrors can hide the problem that one, ONE only can be the first in whatever sense you want to twist what it says.

Both Mohammed and Moses are explicitly called the "first of the believers", for example. There cannot be two "first" can there?

And of course you hide that "foremost" is a derived meaning of "first", much as we have in almost all languages including English. The prominence is specifically based on being FIRST. Otherwise you use a different word.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

frankie
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Re: The first Muslim

Post by frankie »

Muslims would be the first to concede that the definition of a Muslim is someone who submits to Allah.

Was Mohammed a Muslim?

Yes he was according to Islamic theology, he submitted to the Islamic god Allah, and obeyed Allah’s commands, by fighting people to bring them to accept Allah as the only god, and to have neither love nor friendship with non-Muslims, because they are” enemies of Islam and its people “and enemies must be defeated.

Sahih Muslim 33—The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir 9.30

Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because They are Idolators and Disbelievers

Allah the Exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists, disbelieving Jews and Christians, who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against Allah, the Exalted. As for the Jews, they claimed that `Uzayr was the son of God, Allah is free of what they attribute to Him. As for the misguidance of Christians over `Isa, it is obvious....

Tafsir Ibn Kathir 5.51.

Allah forbids His believing servants from having Jews and Christians as friends, because they are the enemies of Islam and its people, may Allah curse them. Allah then states that they are friends of each other and He gives a warning threat to those who do this.....

Qur’an 3:31-32—Say [O Muhammad]: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Say: Obey Allah and the Apostle; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers.

Qur’an 30:43-45—Then turn thy face straight to the right religion before there come from Allah the day which cannot be averted; on that day they shall become separated. Whoever disbelieves, he shall be responsible for his disbelief, and whoever does good, they prepare (good) for their own souls, that He may reward those who believe and do good out of His grace; surely He does not love the unbelievers.

Allah is unknowable, he is a father to no one, he has no son. To be a Muslim means to be a slave of Allah, and slaves must obey their masters who control every aspect of their lives, through fear, not love.


Was Jesus a Muslim?

Yes He was, according to Islamic theology, He submitted to Allah and brought the same message as all previous prophets.

Bus is this really true?

Jesus was brought up as a Jew, and all Jews submit to the Bible God, whose name is given in letters YHWH,aka Yahweh.
YHWH is known as a Father to mankind, who are His creation, because that is what the prophets reveal about YHWH.

Malachi 2.10
Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers?

Isaiah 64:8
But now, O LORD, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand.

Jesus taught the same message as all Bible prophets, repent from sin and obey the commandments of God, through the action of love.

Question: "What is the greatest commandment?"
Jesus was asked this very question by a Pharisee who was considered to be “an expert in the law” (Matthew 22:34–36). Jesus answered by saying, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and most important commandment. The second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets depend on these two commandments” (Matthew 22:37–40).

Conclusion.

Mohammed was a Muslim, he was a slave of Allah, he submitted to Allah through Allah’s laws, who is a father to no one, who told him to fight people, designated as “enemies of Islam, and its people”, to bring them to accept Allah as the only god. Allah has no love for unbelievers,therefore Muslims must have no love for unbelievers.

Jesus was not a Muslim, he submitted to YHWH as His Father, through YHWH’s laws of love of God and all people, regardless of faith, to use spiritual combat, of a spiritual enemy aka sin using spiritual weapons.

Islam claims to own the same God and prophets for itself as the Bible, which it claims taught the same message, which is proved by its own sources not to be the case.

Islam is a lie based on its own admissions.

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manfred
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Re: The first Muslim

Post by manfred »

eagle, let me present little more on this issue. First Mohammed uses "I am the first of the Muslims" as a sort of statement to command respect of his followers, not entirely different from "I am a prophet" in purpose. But this "first" statement was not quite as useful for a number of reasons, so it became in time less used. For a start, a Muslim is the one who "submits" and not really by necessity a "believer". Certainly since Medina new converts "submitted" mostly because they wanted to keep their heads and property.

So to what exactly would MOHAMMED "submit" to? Does he strike you as a submitting, surrendering man?

Then we have the problem that the first "Muslim" is according to Islamic sources clearly Khadija, as she was the one hatching that whole "prophet" plot, and she was the one convincing Mohammed he was a "prophet" because she saw this as a chance to get her hands on the kaaba.

The biggest problem however in Mohammed claiming to be the first Muslim is this: it shows that Islam is a new religion. This is not helping Mohammed. Not at all. Any religion needs a LONG tradition, a history of some kind. Otherwise it looks like an obvious new invention, a fake.

So, Mohammed the "first Muslim" was quietly dropped as not being helpful in the propaganda war. Instead, various biblical characters were dug up and given the dubious honour of being the first Muslim, Moses... well why not Abraham, he is long dead so we can say anything we like about him, and in the end "Adam" the Muslim. The fact that "Adam" was never an actual person was unknown to Mohammed, so the utter nonsense of the idea of being the first Muslim was never discovered by him.... maybe that would have become another "satanic verse" if anyone pointed it out to him? What back peddle would he nave used, do you think?

Also, as the SAME word is used for all these people as being the "first", why on earth would it mean one thing for one and another for someone else? Are you correcting Allah again?

They cannot be all "first" nor can they be all "foremost", as only one can make that claim.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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Centaur
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Re: The first Muslim

Post by Centaur »

An exmuslim confirms the same

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Eagle
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Re: The first Muslim

Post by Eagle »

Adam is and always was in Judaism a real person, a prophet, even credited with writing parts of the psalms.

Nobody in the Quran is said to be the initial Muslim and neither was the prophet Muhammad described as such, not in the Quran nor the traditions. The Quran does not use "awwal" to mean first in a sequence to anyone when describing their Islam, but to emphasize their prominence. Many people can be, even simultaneously, the foremost at something among a larger group.

By the way the importance of being entirely submitted to God is emphasized in past scriptures too 2Chron30:8,Job22:21. After the prophet Muhammad, Submission to God (we are not yet talking of "being Muslim"), implies accepting His revelations and laws which have reached their ultimate form with the Quran and the sealing of prophethood with Muhammad. Of course some may hypocritically submit without sincere belief and the Quran repeatedly speaks of and exposes this behavior
49:14"The dwellers of the desert say: We believe. Say: You do not believe but say, We submit; and faith has not yet entered into your hearts..". But from the Quranic viewpoint, wholehearted belief must precede the "technical submission". It is called iman, literally meaning "to feel secure", implying that one is in complete trust of a protective entity, that is, God. The word is most appropriate considering the objective of the religion, which is to build a relationship between the individual and his Creator. Throughout the Quran we read that pondering on the signs surrounding the individual, external and internal, as well as the divine revelation, one progressively increases in iman until a level of submission is reached that entails a detailed and entire dedication of one's life to that new system
"O you who believe/alatheena amanu, enter into submission one and all".
Iman and that ultimate level of submission therefore express themselves through one's deeds
49:15,2:25"And give glad tidings unto those who believe and do good works; that theirs are Gardens underneath which rivers flow" 14:31"Say to My servants who believe/alatheena amanu that they should keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them secretly and openly before the coming of the day in which there shall be no bartering nor mutual befriending".
As already explained in a previous post, the basic principle that the spiritual felicity does not depend on name or nomenclature, that no one can get honor with Allah except by true faith in, and total servitude to Him throughout one's life is reiterated many times
"whoever submits his self entirely to Allah and he is the doer of good, he has his reward with his Lord".
The submission to Allah is therefore the merging of the correct belief, with the correct deeds 29:7,35:10"To Him do ascend the good words; and the good deeds, lift them up".

Muhammad's initial encounters with the divine actually did not involve his blessed wife Khadija. It started when he was 37, seeing a person in his dreams addressing him as "Apostle of Allah", something which he did not comprehend nor expected, as reflected in the traditions and the Quran 28:86"And you did not expect that the Book would be inspired to you, but it is a mercy from your Lord".

Not only did prophethood come totally unexpectedly to Muhammad, but also never did he entertain, prior to it, the idea of political leadership. As his early critics among the notables themselves objected, he was unimportant from that perspective prior to claiming prophethood and to them, such a weighty message, if true, should only be delivered to a notable 43:31. He did not display any such intent prior to it as his opponents themselves could not deny, nothing out of the ordinary in his demeanor and ambitions as would have been evident for anyone with political aspirations, besides his notoriety as a trustworthy and upright individual 10:16. That is also putting aside his state of shock following his later more vivid encounter with the divine, revealing utter unpreparedness for its implications. To these may be added the well-known facts of his denial of any desire for material gains out of his mission and, more particularly, his turning down of the Quraysh leaders' repeated offers of wealth, leadership and power to him in lieu of his abandoning his mission or compromising some of its tenets as repeatedly alluded to both in the Quran and traditions.

After some time, while he was grazing the sheep of his uncle Abu Talib, he saw that person again calling him the same manner, only this time he identified himself as Gabriel and explained Muhammad the purpose of his visit "Allah has sent me to you so that He may take you for a messenger". Until he reached the age of 40, he would keep retiring in al Hira where he would meditate, then one day Gabriel came back to him with heavenly water to teach him the ablutions, the prostration (sujud) and kneeling (ruku'). He commanded him to perform the prayers and taught him their rites. Muhammad used to pray two rak'ahs every time he prayed. The process of reviving and cleansing from the innovation which had crept into the pure way of Ibrahim and past prophets such as Moses, Jesus or Shuayb who used to offer similar regular prayer had started.

Muhammad was then revisited by Gabriel who came to him with the first revelation, consisting of the first 5 verses of Sura Al Alaq
96:1-5"Recite in the Name of Your Lord Who created. He created the human being from a clot. Recite and your Lord is Most Honourable, Who taught (to write) with the pen, taught the human being what he knew not".
The exact process of revelation is a process unknown to humans and the prophets themselves do not understand its intricate details however from the prophet Muhammad's testimony in the oral tradition where he describes the way he felt it coming to him, we know it could sometimes be a very powerful and internally violent experience. In the darkest times of his prophetic mission, towards the beginning, the prophet Muhammad would often retreat in fear and whould thus be pulled out from reclusion by revelation, telling him to rise and meditate to prepare himself spiritualy and be able to bear what is about to come down on him from on high 73:5"Surely We will make to light upon you a weighty Word". There are narrations speaking of the effects of revelation, not only on the prophet but on those around him; his camel would sit and sink into the sand, a close companion whose knee happenned to be under that of the prophet almost shattered.

There is a reason why God describes His revelation in the Hebrew bible with words such as Deut33:2"fiery", and prophets the likes of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel stated concerning the revelational experience that it can be Isa8:11"overwhelming" Jer20:9"And it was in my heart like a burning fire" and Ezek2:2,8"the spirit entered me when He spoke to me, and it stood me on my feet...hearken to what I speak to you, open your mouth and eat what I give you..". Daniel fell in a swoon when the angel Gabriel began speaking to him Dan8:15-18. He lost consciousness a second time when the angelic carrier of revelation visited him and spoke to him directly Dan10:4-9. The angel Gabriel, after having assumed the shape of a human being, infused Daniel with strength in order for him to regain consciousness and be able to speak Dan10:10-19.
Concerning Malachi, it is described as Mal1:1"The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel in the hand of Malachi". Again when comparing true inspiration to the alleged prophetic dreams of false prophets God states Jer23:29"Is not My word so like fire? says the Lord, and like a hammer that shatters a rock?".

There always is an element of compulsion, implying that when God chooses an individual to be the recipient of revelation, prophecy seizes him against his will, as alluded to by Ezekiel who was fearfully setting himself to confront a highly sinful nation of Israelites Ezek3:14,11:5"and I went, embittered in the wrath of my spirit, and the hand of the Lord became strong upon me..Then the spirit of the Lord fell upon me". Depending on the manner in which it is communicated it can be extremely terrorizing, the prophet Amos compares it to the roaring of a lion Amos3:8, and when revelation was collectively bestowed upon the Israelites, they even thought they would die, begging Moses to put a halt to the experience by becoming their sole intermediary with God Deut5:23-27. There are also mention of various degrees of revelation intensity, such as in Numbers11:17 speaking of God intensifying the spirit of prophecy that was filling Moses, or doubling the power of the spirit of prophecy from a prophet to another, from Elijah to Elisha who effectively was granted double the miracles than his master Elijah 2Kings2:9.

The first revelation was thus inspired to Muhammad, who unlike Jeremiah or Isaiah had no established prophetic tradition to console or support him mentally, on a blessed night also referred to as lailatul qadr, during the month of Ramadan.

That is when Muhammad went back to Khadija to whom he recounted the event. She immediately trusted him and accepted Islam. She also appeased his fears of the consequence of having accepted the burden of prophecy with all the religious, social and political changes it would imply in his sordid and violent environement of Jahiliyya.

As the prophet Ezekiel sat bewildered for 7 days among the people without uttering a word Ezek3:15 following a similar shocking first encounter with the revelational experience, so did the prophet Muhammad seek to recuperate ahead of his mission. Against all political and economical wisdom, his wife Khadija decided to fully support him and reliquish her prestigious status and succesful commerce. The prophet Muhammad would receive clear revelations from on high through dreams 8:43, wakefulness 17:1, through the holyspirit 26:193-4.  

He then taught Khadija the way to pray until one day his cousin Ali ibn Abu Talib, whose father (Abu Talib, Muhammad's paternal uncle) was poor and thus gave his son to Muhammad's household for better care, saw the Prophet and his wife praying so he learned and became the 2nd Muslim.

Then came Zayd, the Prophet's adopted son. Muhammad went on with his life of solitude not talking about these events outside his household until came to him 26:214"And warn your nearest relations", just like Ezekiel was pulled out of his silence and told to initiate transmitting God's warnings Ezek3:16-7. Knowing the magnitude of the message he had to convey to a wretched nation, Muhammad delayed its delivery until Gabriel came to him again, and this time he gathered 40 of the sons of Abdul Muttalib.

The rest is history and no matter how much the disbelievers and deniers among the people of the book dislike it, the final Ishmaelite prophet came, confirming the semitic tradition of prophethood in every way, confirming the truth in their own scriptures and prophecies about him and his Ishmaelite brethren, exposing and correcting the falsehood and establishing the way of God in a succesful manner unequalled in the history of the prophets.

Eagle
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Re: The first Muslim

Post by Eagle »

Centaur wrote:An exmuslim confirms the same

The speaker in this video is either lying regarding him being a previous Muslim or was a Muslim uneducated in his religion, as well as the new one he apparently adopted.

The Almighty in His Quran describes the righteous in the hereafter as the one who "khashiya" the beneficient God without seeing Him in this world. The word denotes fear of Allah not only on account of the fear of His punishment as is the case with "khawf", but it stresses a sense of humility and awe at Allah's glory and greatness, something only the ones who ponder and reflect at the higher meanings of things can achieve, hence the repeated statements that 35:28"only those of His servants fear Allah who have knowledge". The verse ends with a statement that infuses hope in the God-conscious "verily Allah is Mighty, Forgiving". Many Quranic passages follow that pattern of balancing the attributes of God among one another, in order to infuse hope after a warning or a feeling of reassurance following glad tidings. Such is the case in 85:4-14 first mentioning the just and severe requital of a group of criminals, then the praise of the righteous, and the passage concludes with "And He is the Forgiving/ghafur, the Loving/wadud". Both words amplify the concepts to the utmost; He is 'forgiving' of the sins of those sinners who repent, and is 'Loving' to the servants who are good-doers. This illustrates the concept of iman/feeling of safety in Allah (as will be detailed below). It is a balance between fear, hope, love.

The idea is prevalent throughout the Hebrew Bible.

When the Israelites feared they might die if they continued to experience revelation and so asked of Moses to step in and be their intermediary with God, they were told that it is precisely the awe of God that humbles a person and prevents him from sin, keeps evil away, makes him walk aright and perform justice Malachi2:5-6,Prov19:23,Ex20:16-17"in order that His awe shall be upon your faces, so that you shall not sin". The same is stated in the Quran 79:40. As the psalmist states, the one wo performs justice and rigtheousness can only be one whose Ps119:120"flesh bristles from fear of You, and I dread Your judgments". Ezra to whom part of the book of Chronicles is traditionally attributed to, states, while recalling the prophet David's prayer 1Chr16:30"Quake before Him, all the earth.."
To fear God reverently is actually among the 613 commandements revealed at Sinai Deut6:13,10:20 and reiterated time and again by the prophets 1Sam12:24-5, including Solomon, the wisest of all prophets who stated when concluding the last book attributed to him that fear from, and servitude to God is the whole purpose of man's existence Ecc12:13-14. In fact the whole of creation has been arranged in such a way so as to result in fear of God for the spiritually aware, who cannot but perceive God's all-encompassing grasp in the functioning of all existence Ecc3:14.
His father David before him echoed that universal purpose, it is every human's duty, to be inculcated from the youngest age Ps34:12,Ps33:8"Let all the earth fear the Lord; let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him".

He also stated, in the context of a time where all nations will be brought low before the Jewish people and either convert to Judaism or die Ps2:11"Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with quaking". God fearing is a precondition for divine acceptance and guidance Ps25:12, one of the prime qualities of the righteous believer Ex18:21, up to the most respected, upright leaders of a community 2Sam23:3 and prophets Isa8:13,Ps5:8,Ps34:10"Fear the Lord, His holy ones". It is the pre-condition to wisdom itself, as well as discipline, uprightness and true knowledge, and to gaining God's praise and acceptance Ps111:10,112:1,Prov1:7,8:13. David also stated that Ps19:10"the fear of the Lord is pure" and hence the absence of that fear is often equated with disbelief Jer2:19, which is why a time will come where those that do not feel it will be considered worthless and deserving a severe chastisement while those that harbored it, fearing God's chastisment, will be saved and rewarded Mal3:5,20,Ps85:10,Prov28:14.

As the Quran equally states, fear of God, when kept in view in one's daily life and actions, inevitably leads to reward in the Hereafter 55:46,76:5-10,79:40-1.
It will be the fear of God that will animate the mythical messianic figure that will come at the end of times to restore justice and righteousness Isa11:2-5 and it is the fear of God, carved into the hearts of the Jews at the end of times that will make them walk the straight path forever Jer32:38-40.
This fear, awe and reveration to God is so deeply rooted in the teachings of Judaism Deut28:58"fear this glorious and awesome name, the Lord, your God" that the 4 letters representing God's actual proper name (the Tetragammaton YHWH, which God Himself actually never identifies as His "name") is never pronounced as it is spelled or written, even in prayer where HaShem, Elohim or Adonai are used instead.

Seeing God's name as so sacred that it shouldn't be mentioned is condemned as a great injustice in the Quran 2:114. The remembrance of God, praising Him by His name and attributes is an important part of a worshiper's rituals, continuously commanded in the Quran 87:1"Glorify the name of your Lord, the Most High".
Fear of God, awareness of the seriousness of His threats avoids one from falling into self-complacency, makes one feel obliged at all times to act upon Divine Commands and regard the righteous good deeds as insignificant in the face of divine perfection 7:99,70:24-8. That notion is such a crucial component of faith that after introducing His identity through His observable attributes, God describes His servants as those who, among other lofty characteristics, fear the seriousness of His threats more than they desire His reward 25:60-77.

Fear however can never be the sole constituent of belief, it must be balanced with 2 other elements; hope 12:87 and love for God 32:16"call upon their Sustainer in fear and in hope" 21:90"These people exerted their utmost in righteous deeds and called upon Us with love and fear and they remained humble before Us". The correct attitude is to never fall into either extreme, becoming self-complacent or hopeless of God's mercy.

This upright perspective leads one to continuously strive to increase safety/iman in Allah. The believer in those concepts continuously toils in the path of truth, without pride and self content, with god-consciousness and fear of God's threats as well as hope for His mercy, until he meets his Creator. The Love is evident in the word IMAN that denotes profound and sincere feeling of safety implying that one is in complete trust of a protective entity, that is, God. One cannot feel safe in an entity without having love for that entity. It should be noted that this love is reciprocal and more intense when coming from God, referred to in the Quran as al-rahman, the intensification of rahma. The root R-H-M means WOMB. Therefore in order to imagine what this word actually means one has to picture the womb and what it does to the fetus. It nurtures, protects, provides warmth, love etc. without even the fetus being aware of it.

A more comprehensive covering of the manner in which Allah's love is applied, can be seen in sura fatiha. Allah is firstly called rabb/the Raiser or Sustainer. Since it is a word implying authority, and that authority doesnt necessarily evoke the concept of love, immidiately after, God is called al rahman. As said above, it is in the intensive form, but another characteristic of the word is that it does not cover the future. Which is why rahim comes next, undetermined in time. This makes the rabb take care with love now by answering present needs, and does the same for later needs. However, to strike a balance in human psyche, who is now told that the master answers with intense love, the concept of accountability is introduced malik yawm eddin/master of the day of judgement. This is because intense love is most often abused of, negatively taken advantage of. So, although God's love in unconditional when it comes to caring for His creatures and making all necessary arrangements for their ultimate success, such love does not confuse His perfect justice and does not prevent Him in the least from applying the appropriate sentence no matter how severe.

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Fernando
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Re: The first Muslim

Post by Fernando »

Eagle wrote:The speaker in this video is either lying regarding him being a previous Muslim or was a Muslim uneducated in his religion, as well as the new one he apparently adopted.
No True Scotsman, either? :D
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manfred
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Re: The first Muslim

Post by manfred »

Adam is and always was in Judaism a real person, a prophet, even credited with writing parts of the psalms.
Adam is not a name, it means "man". The story of Adam is a poem. While there are some who would see "Adam" as a historical figure, modern scholarship shows clearly that is not so, and that includes Jewish critical studies of the text. The "prophet" with a direct line to God should not have repeated old misconceptions.
Nobody in the Quran is said to be the initial Muslim and neither was the prophet Muhammad described as such, not in the Quran nor the traditions.
False. Quite a few are called the first.
The Quran does not use "awwal" to mean first in a sequence to anyone when describing their Islam, but to emphasize their prominence. Many people can be, even simultaneously, the foremost at something among a larger group.
Yes it does, and every single translator agrees. And many people cannot be "the foremost" either. That is a nonsense. If someone is the "foremost" then by definition all others are not.

Also the Qur'an admonishes the Muslims not to be "the first to unbelieve" using the same phrase, to prevent the first instance of apostasy, in the event unsuccessfully. So what the word means is totally clear. You are just rewriting he Qur'an again.

So it is quite obvious that it means the first in a sequence. Only inconvenient for you. And you fail to understand that being "foremost" , when "first" is used, means being ahead in rank not because of selection or qualification, but purely by virtue of being the first.

For example, when a monastery is founded and has less than 12 monks, then they cannot elect an abbot. Instead the FIRST monk entering that monastery is the superior until there are sufficient monks for an election. This monk is called the "prior" (which means "the one before").

So he gets his rank by having arrived before the others.


This is what you seem to deliberately obscure. Mohammed is the "foremost" of the Muslims by virtue of being THE FIRST, as the Qur'an says. There is not one translation that would disagree with that, only you do. And it makes no difference to the problem anyway: there can only be ONE "foremost" too, and by definition if one is "foremost" then the others clearly are not.
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Eagle
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Re: The first Muslim

Post by Eagle »

Every Semitic name has a meaning, including Adam, meaning "man of the earth" and appropriately given to the -real- man, made from the earth, who had -real- descendants. Genesis, in line with its introductory statements to past events starts Adam's story with "this is the history of". He is in addition named in both HB and NT genealogies 1Chron1:1,Lk3:38. Nothing in the text even hints at him being a fictional character, which is of course embarrassing to modern Christians and Jews who cannot reconcile the notion of Adam being the first ever human who thus would have appeared far too recently in light of current scientific knowledge.

Also, the HB uses other Hebrew words for man.

All the verses speaking of the "awwal" Muslims are speaking in terms of quality in sincerity, obedience and firmness in faith, not sequence. Many people simultaneously can be the foremost qualitatively, if they are contrasted to another group that does not possess their qualities. This applies to every language, not only Arabic. For example the Brazil football team is the foremost compared to all others, in terms of achievements on the world stage.
Last edited by Eagle on Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Eagle
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Re: The first Muslim

Post by Eagle »

Fernando wrote:
Eagle wrote:The speaker in this video is either lying regarding him being a previous Muslim or was a Muslim uneducated in his religion, as well as the new one he apparently adopted.
No True Scotsman, either? :D
Nothing was redefined. An educated Muslim would never utter such nonsense.

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manfred
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Re: The first Muslim

Post by manfred »

Every Semitic name has a meaning
Yes, at least most of them.
including Adam,
"Adam" is not a name in the Hebrew bible. There is no other character called "Adam", and only Christians and Muslims do use it as a name. If you find a Jew called "Adam" he is almost always from a secularised family.

To pretend the creation story of the bible is some kind or historical account is profoundly misreading it. That mistake alone by Mohammed throws most grave doubts on his claims.

All the verses speaking of the "awwal" Muslims are speaking in terms of quality, not sequence.
No it doesn't, that is your INTERPRETATION or rewrite of the text.

And by definition, any superlative applied to a person rules out all others. He was the first, in whatever ever sense you decide to understand that, always means that no others are the same.

If you want several people to be "first" you must say "one of the first", or "one of the foremost" (واحد من الأوائل ), defining a group. If you don't then the PERSON NAMED ONLY can be meant by such an attribute. The Qur'an does NOT use any plural form for "the first" ( الأولى ), so we must read what it says and not what you like it to say.

I am surprised I need to explain that.

And أول means "first", plain and simple, as EVERY translator confirms and anyone with rudimentary Arabic knows. In English we use that word in pretty much exactly the same way, so there is no big mystery.
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manfred
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Re: The first Muslim

Post by manfred »

SAM wrote:In the Quran does not mention whether Abraham, Muhammad, Moses or anyone after Adam's time as the first ever Muslim, but many Muslims can conclude that it is Adam.
Mohammed:

Say, verily my Lord hath directed me into a right way, a true religion, the sect of Abraham the orthodox; and he was no idolater. Say, verily my prayers, and my worship, and my life, and my death are dedicated unto God, the Lord of all creatures: He hath no companion. This have I been commanded: I am the first Moslem S. 6:161-163
Say (O Muhammad): Lo! I am commanded to worship Allah, making religion pure for Him (only). And I am commanded to be the first of those who are Muslims S. 39:11-12


But we also have Jesus called a Muslim, and a whole host of others. Eagle tried to explain this by suggesting that "first" is meant metaphorically, as in the "most important" or similar.

While this harmonises part of the references, one stands out clearly contradicting him.

Of all these characters Moses is also specifically called the first:
Then Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." S. 7:143
So even if eagle's brave re-interpretation were to have merit, it does nothing to help in this specific case. No two people can be the "foremost".
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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manfred
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Re: The first Muslim

Post by manfred »

SAM wrote:Ask stupid questions to get stupid answers. :lotpot:

In that case I can dismiss your response as stupid?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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