A question that muslims will not address.

[sum]

It concerns the matter of who is to be believed - Allah or Muhammad. The muslims are frightened to answer.

This matter has been only partly mentioned as a side issue in another thread but this time I wish to make it the main subject.

The question is "Where does the sun set?"

Allah says that it sets in a muddy pool. Muhammad says that it rests beneath Allah`s throne.

There is a very great difference between Allah and Muhammad and so muslims will not know who to believe. Modern scientific knowledge proves both to be wrong but the Koran is claimed to be error free. Who are muslims to believe? Muslims can not contradict the infallible Allah or they will be punished and so they will have to reject modern science and accept the muddy pool as the setting place of the sun if they regard Allah`s words rather than his also mistaken prophet.

This subject alone shows that Islam is a false religion created by a man who had no scientific knowledge.

Any muslim dare to comment?

sum

[Hombre]

The question is "Where does the sun set?"

Muslims are taught that the sun rises in Mekkah and sets in Madinah.

[sum]

Come on, muslims, and answer my question as I want to know where your loyalties lie - is it a muddy pool, under Allah`s throne or modern science?

It is important that you clear the air not only for the "forummers" but also for the guests who visit the forum. As it stands, the guests will not be positively impressed by Allah, Muhammad or muslims who agree with either Allah or Muhammad.

This is a true Achilles heel as far as the credibility of the Koran, Muhammad and Islam is concerned.

Muslims, do you consider that the critics of Islam are correct in this matter or is your indoctrination and fear overpowering your logic?

Is your silence "consent" as you can not bring yourselves to openly admit the gross errors of the Koran and Muhammad?

sum

[sum]

Hello muslims

Where are you? We are waiting for you to clear the air on this matter and rescue Allah and Muhammad from destroying Islam. With their absurd claims about the setting of the sun one could claim that they were trying to make Islam a laughing stock as well as helping the non-muslims to show that Islam truly is a false religion.

sum

[Fernando]

The question is "Where does the sun set?"

Muslims are taught that the sun rises in Mekkah and sets in Madinah.

But Allah's throne is directly above Mecca, so it should be setting in Mecca and rising in Medina.

[Mughal]

Dear sum, most questions nonmuslims raise about mullah islam are good but most people who claim to be muslims do not have the needed knowledge to think at that level. As I always explain mullah islam is not the islam the quran talks about.

Anyone who reads any mullah explanation of the quran will find it full of flaws, contradictions and inconsistencies. It is because those who are put forth as top most muslim scholars of islam have no knowledge of deen of islam based upon the quran.

Mullah islam was invented by palace mullahs after the passing away of the final messenger of God and I have already explained how it all happened in my other posts on this forum.

The problem with most nonmuslims is they are not willing to look into the quran by themselves to arrive at their own conclusions about the quran as individuals. So in my view all such muslims and nonmuslims are two sides of the same coin. So long as people remain in groups and do not allow each other freedom of learning sense of making proper sense of things and thinking things through thoroughly the situation of humanity will remain difficult always.

The main point is, deen of islam based concepts about God are very different from those pushed forth by mazaahib or different versions of religion. Please read my post on different interpretations of five pillars of islam. They mean something very different when looked at from deen of islam perspective from those mullahs and their die hard followers push forth.

If you look at hindu concepts about God you will see them in indian movies. Look at the prayer concepts of hindus, parsis, jews, christians, muslims etc etc. Look at their pilgrimage concept. You will find all versions of religion are exactly the same with different labels. In all versions of religion we are told this is how we ought to worship God. There is no concept of God of rule of law in any religious version. This is not the case with the quran. The quran puts forth concept of a God who works according to a rule of law as explained by him in the quran. Nothing can take place unless it takes place according to a set law of God which we call laws of nature. The quran calls these laws kalimaatullah or sunnatullah in the quran ie God has set up laws for each and everything to work according to it. He always did things the very same way.

You see, in all religious versions people try to fit God in their own plans but fail and become uncomfortable and disappointed with God. The God of the quran is very different. He tells people, he has already planned everything about everyone and everything including himself so nothing can derail his plan and purpose. You can cry all you like to persuade God to do something for you but if it does not suit his plan and purpose it cannot happen. Quranic God does not do things haphazardly.

Deen of islam is not a personality cult at all because it is a rule of law based concept which binds God to his role and all other things according to their roles respectively as individuals however each and every mazhab is only and only a personality cult. This is why people worship their religious figures eg gods, prophets or saints etc. All religious people are grave worshippers or hero worshippers through out the world.

The quran does not allow such a thing at all. This is why there is no concept of intercession in the quran. No concept of sin in the quran. You either live by law of God for ensuring well being of humanity or you break his law and face the related consequences. Religion is a curse not a blessing as priests and mullahs or gurus and pundits or rabbis will have us believe. However it will take a very long time for people to become educated and thinking to realise their mistakes about concepts regarding God and to correct them. Our creativity is so far limited with material world only and we have not yet started thinking at a deeper level about having proper concepts about God in light of his revelations.

This is why many of the things I point out are new for most people. One day they will become common. This is why I think people should try their utmost to gain knowledge and become serious thinkers as individuals and they should stop following mullahs and rabbis and priests and gurus etc etc. Till they do that people with knowledge should carry on educating them as every little bit counts.

The quran is not impossible to understand but it is made very hard by its religious minded interpreters both muslims and nonmuslims who take the readers of their interpretations up the very wrong and very long road. To unwind indoctrinated people is not impossible but it is very, very difficult.

I find nothing wrong in the quranic text but I had to spend a lot of time in figuring out things for myself. Others should do the same if they are truly looking for the truth about God and his revelation.

By starting from negative end, one cannot reach positive conclusion in case of God because in this case negative cannot be proven. Moreover proof is not a fact but an explanation of a fact. In case of God a hidden fact or hidden reality. One has to ask oneself, If God really exists and he is hidden for whatever reason but can be explained, could I be right in negating his existence? It is because for things to come to existence there must exist something already, it is because nothing can never give rise to anything at all. To accept that something can come from nothing at all is pure nonsense. However even if we accept existence of God as a possibility then that existence means nothing for us till God reveals himself to us in some way. This is how God reveals to us his existence by way of rationality and revelation. It is therefore up to us to learn to make proper sense of his revealed message. This is where the problem is ie people are not trying to make proper sense of his message to try to understand his plan and purpose properly. Till people do that things will remain very troublesome for them always as they have been always.

I hope people have read my other posts as well where in I explain the fact that only and only the quran is the book of deen of islam and no other book at all. The question is why that is the case? It is because in the quran it is God who is talking and telling about things and no one else. The quran is narration by God for mankind. Other than the quran there is no book in deen of islam in which God talks as he talks in the quran.

The quran is not a story about God told by muhammad as is the new testament in the bible in which stories about jesus are told by matthew, mark, luke and john etc. If you read the quran it repeatedly tells us it is a message of God for humanity revealed by God himself. No other book in the world today makes claims like the quran. This is why the quran alone is book of deen of islam. All other books are written by people not God. They are written by both muslims as well as nonmuslims about islam. They are full of mistakes and human errors this is why their contents cannot be attributed to God because God cannot make mistakes and is beyond making any errors.

This does not mean human works are totally worthless but that whatever is right in them is good and whatever is wrong in them is bad. However what is right and what is wrong in them has to be judged by some reasonable criterion and that criterion is the quran. However the quran cannot be used as criterion till people learn sense of making proper sense of it and then go ahead and make proper sense of its message. Only and only then they can use the quran as it is supposed to be used. This is why I am working on the quranic message and this is the way to go. By doing what people are doing ie arguing with each other without knowledge they are only wasting each other's time and they are taking each other away from what they are supposed to be doing ie discovering the actual truth about the quran and its message.

So far I have managed to explain to people how they should try and study the quran if they wish to know the truth about it and its message. It is now up to them to do so or not to bother with it at all. I have fully established the fact that words used in the quran have various meanings and the meanings which keep message of the quran consistent with its purpose of revelation are true and only they should be accepted and all the rest are false therefore they should be rejected. I have explained in detail how human languages came about and developed and how they could have been used by God and how human beings can understand message of God in human language ie I have explained the mechanism involved in this whole process. I also explained why the quran is written the way it is.

Unless one pays attention to points like these and puts them together in a sensible way and uses them one will remain confused therefore lost. I can only explain how a sum can be done but to do it is up to individuals themselves. Those who will do it will have the chance of reaching the proper conclusion in this regard but those who will not will have no chance of reaching the proper conclusion. One can only have a chance for winning a race if one participates in it according to rules of the game not otherwise.

As for tafaseer and hadith books' contents they are ok only if they explain things the way they should be explained and not ignorance based explanations. In deen of islam no human being is free of mistakes or human errors. Not even muhammad the final messenger of Allah. This is why criterion is not muhammad or any other person but word of God. If anyone does things according to the book of God he is good and if anyone does things otherwise deliberately then one is condemned to consequences of one's doings. No person who was chosen as his messenger by God ever did anything wrong deliberately but even messengers of God were not free of making odd mistakes according to the quran itself. However they were corrected by God if they did make any mistakes to keep things right. So whatever anyone has written in his book is his words and if bukhaari or muslim or anyone else has narrated wrong things about God or any of his messengers then he will be disregarded for doing that. However in hadith books things are narrated about the prophet on basis of various authorities therefore weaker links in the chains of narrations will be dropped or disregarded rather than the whole book of narrations because each narration is an independent account of an event.

I have explained all these points in detail in my various posts already so I see no point in going over and over the same again and again as I am very limited on time. I have explain all major points about the quran and deen of islam for all to learn and benefit from. All that remains for me to do is, to have my own interpretation of the quran according to what I have explained and for that I need a lot of time on my hand and hopefully a bit more life that allows me to complete my work on the quran. Once that is done things will change in a big way. May be someone will reach there long before me as I have explained what sort of work is needed on the quran to make its message obvious in a proper way. So far I am happy I have done my bit but I would love to do more to save others from using their time on these things so that they could do many other things which also need to be done for ensuring well being of humanity.

According to deen of islam or quranic teachings human beings are supposed to do works of God and not be weaklings as God has placed huge trust and potential in humanity that is why he has bestowed it with sense of responsibility and accountability. According to mazaahib people should not play God. A huge difference between teachings of deen of islam and different versions of religion.

regards and all the best

[frankie]

Dear sum, most questions nonmuslims raise about mullah islam are good but most people who claim to be muslims do not have the needed knowledge to think at that level. As I always explain mullah islam is not the islam the quran talks about.

Anyone who reads any mullah explanation of the quran will find it full of flaws, contradictions and inconsistencies. It is because those who are put forth as top most muslim scholars of islam have no knowledge of deen of islam based upon the quran.

Mullah islam was invented by palace mullahs after the passing away of the final messenger of God and I have already explained how it all happened in my other posts on this forum.

The problem with most nonmuslims is they are not willing to look into the quran by themselves to arrive at their own conclusions about the quran as individuals. So in my view all such muslims and nonmuslims are two sides of the same coin. So long as people remain in groups and do not allow each other freedom of learning sense of making proper sense of things and thinking things through thoroughly the situation of humanity will remain difficult always.

The main point is, deen of islam based concepts about God are very different from those pushed forth by mazaahib or different versions of religion. Please read my post on different interpretations of five pillars of islam. They mean something very different when looked at from deen of islam perspective from those mullahs and their die hard followers push forth.

If you look at hindu concepts about God you will see them in indiam movies. Look at the prayer concepts of hindus, parsis, jews, christians, muslims etc etc. Look at their pilgrimage concept. You will find all versions of religion are exactly the same with a different label. In all versions of religion we are told this is how we ought to worship God. There is no concept of God of rule of law in any religious version. This is not the case with the quran. The quran puts forth concept of a God who works according to a rule of law as explained by him in the quran. Nothing can take place unless it takes place according to a set law of God which we call laws of nature. The quran calls these laws kalimaatullah or sunnatullah in the quran ie God has set up laws for each and everything to work according to it. He always did things the very same way.

You see, in all religious versions people try to fit God in their own plans but fail and become uncomfortable and disappointed with God. The God of the quran is very different. He tells people, he has already planned everything about everyone and everything including himself so nothing can derail his plan and purpose. You can cry all you like to persuade God to do something for you but if it does not suit his plan and purpose it cannot happen. Quranic God does not do things haphazardly.

Deen of islam is not a personality cult at all because it is a rule of law based concept which binds God to his role and all other things according to their roles respectively as individuals however each and every mazhab is only and only a personality cult. This is why people worship their religious figures eg gods, prophets or saints etc. All religious people are grave worshippers or hero worshippers through out the world.

The quran does not allow such a thing at all. This is why there is no concept of intercession in the quran. No concept of sin in the quran. You either live by law of God for ensuring well being of humanity or you break his law and face the related consequences. Religion is a curse not a blessing as priests and mullahs or gurus and pundits or rabbis will have us believe. However it will take a very long time for people to become educated and thinking to realise their mistakes about concepts regarding God and to correct them. Our creativity is so far limited with material world only and we have not yet started thinking at a deeper level about having proper concepts about God in light of his revelations.

This is why many of the things I point out are new for most people. One day they will become common. This is why I think people should try their utmost to gain knowledge and become serious thinkers as individuals and they should stop following mullahs and rabbis and priests and gurus etc etc. Till they do that people with knowledge should carry on educating them as every little bit counts.

The quran is not impossible to understand but it is made very hard by its religious minded interpreters both muslims and nonmuslims who take the readers of their interpretations up the very wrong and very long road. To unwind indoctrinated people is not impossible but it is very, very difficult.

I find nothing wrong in the quranic text but I had to spend a lot of time in figuring out things for myself. Others should do the same if they are truly looking for the truth about God and his revelation.

By starting from negative end, one cannot reach positive conclusion in case of God because in this case negative cannot be proven. Moreover proof is not a fact but an explanation of a fact. In case of God a hidden fact or hidden reality. One has to ask oneself, If God really exists and he is hidden for whatever reason but can be explained, could I be right in negating his existence? It is because for things to come to existence there must exist something already, it is because nothing can never give rise to anything at all. To accept that something can come from nothing at all is pure nonsense. However even if we accept existence of God as a possibility then that existence means nothing for us till God reveals himself to us in some way. This is how God reveals to us his existence by way of rationality and revelation. It is therefore up to us to learn to make proper sense of his revealed message. This is where the problem is ie people are not trying to make proper sense of his message to try to understand his plan and purpose properly. Till people do that things will remain very troublesome for them always as they have been always.

regards and all the best.

Mughal

Your digression does nothing to answer sum's question, which clearly shows you have a problem answering it.

This is not at all unsurprising because the Quran, together with its prophet make claims which are scientifically in error, which cannot be upheld by anyone who wants to be on the side of truth.

What you have to face is the reason why you cannot bring yourself to answer truthfully the question put before you.

Your book and prophet are both wrong, The sun does not “set “anywhere, but to a 7th century Arabian nomad it would appear to do just that.
Mohammed said something which is not true, but Allah did not correct him, which has misguided countless millions of Muslims throughout the centuries.

You are still one of these mis guided.

Quran 18.86
Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness

Tafsir 18.86
Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs
Till, when he reached the setting place of the sun) where the sun sets, (he found it setting in a muddy spring) a blackened, muddy and stinking spring; it is also said that this means: a hot spring, (and found a people thereabout) these people were disbelievers: (We said: O Dhu'l-Qarnayn!) We inspired him (Either punish) either kill them until they accept to believe that there is no deity except Allah (or show them kindness) or you pardon them and let them be.

Sunan Abu Dawud : Dar-us-Salam reference / Hadith 4002
Narrated Abu Dharr:
I was sitting behind the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets ? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water (Hamiyah).Indexes
Dar-us-Salam reference

[sum]

Welcome back, Mughal.

Sahih Al-Bukhari

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421:
Narrated Abu Dharr:
The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: ‘And the sun Runs its fixed course for a term (decreed). That is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing.’" (36.38)

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 327:
Narrated Abu Dharr:
I asked the Prophet about the Statement of Allah:--
‘And the sun runs on fixed course for a term (decreed),’ (36.38) He said, "Its course is underneath Allah's Throne."

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 520:
Narrated Abu Dharr:
I entered the mosque while Allah's Apostle was sitting there. When the sun had set, the Prophet said, "O Abu Dharr! Do you know where this (sun) goes?" I said, "Allah and His Apostle know best." He said, "It goes and asks permission to prostrate, and it is allowed, and (one day) it, as if being ordered to return whence it came, then it will rise from the west." Then the Prophet recited, "That: ‘And the sun runs on its fixed course (for a term decreed)," (36.38) as it is recited by ‘Abdullah.

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 528:
Narrated Abu Dharr:
I asked the Prophet regarding the Verse:--'And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term decreed for it.' (36.28) He said, "Its fixed course is underneath Allah's Throne."

Sahih Muslim

Book 001, Number 0297:
It is narrated on the authority of Abu Dharr that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) one day said: Do you know where the sun goes? They replied: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Verily it (the sun) glides till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it falls prostrate and remains there until it is asked: Rise up and go to the place whence you came, and it goes back and continues emerging out from its rising place and then glides till it reaches its place of rest under the Throne and falls prostrate and remains in that state until it is asked: Rise up and return to the place whence you came, and it returns and emerges out from it rising place and the it glides (in such a normal way) that the people do not discern anything (unusual in it) till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it would be said to it: Rise up and emerge out from the place of your setting, and it will rise from the place of its setting. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said. Do you know when it would happen? It would happen at the time when faith will not benefit one who has not previously believed or has derived no good from the faith.

All this suggests that Muhammad was a very convincing story teller and/or the muslims were truly gullible. Or, perhaps, Muhammad was somewhat deranged - and Allah.

Are you able to explain these inaccuracies from both Allah and Muhammad?

sum

[iffo]

Mughal wrote 6 paragraphs wasting his time with out answering the actual question
Mughal please answer the question seriously... don't play games.

[frankie]

Mughal

One more thing.

Your god and prophet claim the sun moves, which again is wrong, the sun does not move, it is static, what does move round the sun in orbit however are the planets and moon, which is why the earth has night and day.

These errors prove the Quran to be a fraudulent book, as no infallible being could ever make such blatant fallible errors about the creation said to be of his own making.

[pr126]

Does the Sun move around the Milky Way?

Yes, the Sun - in fact, our whole solar system - orbits around the center of the Milky Way Galaxy. We are moving at an average velocity of 828,000 km/hr. But even at that high rate, it still takes us about 230 million years to make one complete orbit around the Milky Way!

Of course, the prophet had no way of knowing that.

[Mughal]

Welcome back, Mughal.

Sahih Al-Bukhari

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421:
Narrated Abu Dharr:
The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: ‘And the sun Runs its fixed course for a term (decreed). That is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing.’" (36.38)

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 327:
Narrated Abu Dharr:
I asked the Prophet about the Statement of Allah:--
‘And the sun runs on fixed course for a term (decreed),’ (36.38) He said, "Its course is underneath Allah's Throne."

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 520:
Narrated Abu Dharr:
I entered the mosque while Allah's Apostle was sitting there. When the sun had set, the Prophet said, "O Abu Dharr! Do you know where this (sun) goes?" I said, "Allah and His Apostle know best." He said, "It goes and asks permission to prostrate, and it is allowed, and (one day) it, as if being ordered to return whence it came, then it will rise from the west." Then the Prophet recited, "That: ‘And the sun runs on its fixed course (for a term decreed)," (36.38) as it is recited by ‘Abdullah.

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 528:
Narrated Abu Dharr:
I asked the Prophet regarding the Verse:--'And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term decreed for it.' (36.28) He said, "Its fixed course is underneath Allah's Throne."

Sahih Muslim

Book 001, Number 0297:
It is narrated on the authority of Abu Dharr that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) one day said: Do you know where the sun goes? They replied: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Verily it (the sun) glides till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it falls prostrate and remains there until it is asked: Rise up and go to the place whence you came, and it goes back and continues emerging out from its rising place and then glides till it reaches its place of rest under the Throne and falls prostrate and remains in that state until it is asked: Rise up and return to the place whence you came, and it returns and emerges out from it rising place and the it glides (in such a normal way) that the people do not discern anything (unusual in it) till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it would be said to it: Rise up and emerge out from the place of your setting, and it will rise from the place of its setting. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said. Do you know when it would happen? It would happen at the time when faith will not benefit one who has not previously believed or has derived no good from the faith.

All this suggests that Muhammad was a very convincing story teller and/or the muslims were truly gullible. Or, perhaps, Muhammad was somewhat deranged - and Allah.

Are you able to explain these inaccuracies from both Allah and Muhammad?

sum

Thank you for welcome dear sum and I hope you are fine.

I hope you have read my other posts as well where in I explain the fact that only and only the quran is the book of deen of islam and no other book at all. The question is why that is the case? It is because in the quran it is God who is talking and telling about things and no one else. The quran is narration by God for mankind. Other than the quran there is no book in deen of islam in which God talks as he talks in the quran.

The quran is not a story about God told by muhammad as is the new testament in the bible in which stories about jesus are told by matthew, mark, luke and john etc. If you read the quran it repeatedly tells us it is a message of God for humanity revealed by God himself. No other book in the world today makes claims like the quran. This is why the quran alone is book of deen of islam. All other books are written by people not God. They are written by both muslims as well as nonmuslims about islam. They are full of mistakes and human errors this is why their contents cannot be attributed to God because God cannot make mistakes and is beyond making any errors.

This does not mean human works are totally worthless but that whatever is right in them is good and whatever is wrong in them is bad. However what is right and what is wrong in them has to be judged by some reasonable criterion and that criterion is the quran. However the quran cannot be used as criterion till people learn sense of making proper sense of it and then go ahead and make proper sense of its message. Only and only then they can use the quran as it is supposed to be used. This is why I am working on the quranic message and this is the way to go. By doing what people are doing ie arguing with each other without knowledge they are only wasting each other's time and they are taking each other away from what they are supposed to be doing ie discovering the actual truth about the quran and its message.

So far I have managed to explain to people how they should try and study the quran if they wish to know the truth about it and its message. It is now up to them to do so or not to bother with it at all. I have fully established the fact that words used in the quran have various meanings and the meanings which keep message of the quran consistent with its purpose of revelation are true and only they should be accepted and all the rest are false therefore they should be rejected. I have explained in detail how human languages came about and developed and how they could have been used by God and how human beings can understand message of God in human language ie I have explained the mechanism involved in this whole process. I also explained why the quran is written the way it is.

Unless one pays attention to points like these and puts them together in a sensible way and uses them one will remain confused therefore lost. I can only explain how a sum can be done but to do it is up to individuals themselves. Those who will do it will have the chance of reaching the proper conclusion in this regard but those who will not will have no chance of reaching the proper conclusion. One can only have a chance for winning a race if one participates in it according to rules of the game not otherwise.

As for tafaseer and hadith books' contents they are ok only if they explain things the way they should be explained and not ignorance based explanations. In deen of islam no human being is free of mistakes or human errors. Not even muhammad the final messenger of Allah. This is why criterion is not muhammad or any other person but word of God. If anyone does things according to the book of God he is good and if anyone does things otherwise deliberately then one is condemned to consequences of one's doings. No person who was chosen as his messenger by God ever did anything wrong deliberately but even messengers of God were not free of making odd mistakes according to the quran itself. However they were corrected by God if they did make any mistakes to keep them right. So whatever anyone has written in his book is his words and if bukhaari or muslim or anyone else has narrated wrong things about God or any of his messengers then he will be disregarded for doing that. However in hadith books things are narrated about the prophet on basis of various authorities therefore weaker links in the chains of narrations will be dropped or disregarded rather than the whole book of narrations because each narration is an independent account of an event.

I have explained all these points in detail in my various posts already so I see no point in going over and over the same again and again as I am very limited on time. I have explain all major points about the quran and deen of islam for all to learn and benefit from. All that remains for me to do is, to have my own interpretation of the quran according to what I have explained and for that I need a lot of time on my hand and hopefully a bit more life that allows me to complete my work on the quran. Once that is done things will change in a big way. May be someone will reach there long before me as I have explained what sort of work is needed on the quran to make its message obvious in a proper way. So far I am happy I have done my bit but I would love to do more to save others from using their time on these things so that they could do many other things which also need to be done for ensuring well being of humanity.

regards and all the best.

[sum]

Hello Mughal

Would you kindly explain why the Koran says that the sun sets in a muddy pool? Your last post did not address the matter.

sum

[sum]

It looks like all the muslims have capitulated. Their silence would appear to mean that they agree that both Allah and Muhammad were wrong but they dare not admit it. They might as well admit it as they are frequently told in the Koran that Allah always knows what they believe as it is in their hearts. Allah knows that they doubt him and so this question must put the muslims into a perilous position.

Surely, this matter of the sun setting must make muslims have some doubts about the credibility of the Koran, Muhammad and therefore Islam purely on this subject alone. I hope that the visitors to the forum read this and so begin to see that the Koran is a falsehood resulting in a false religion with Muhammad as a false prophet.

The muslims have kept away from the forum hoping that this subject will just go away.

sum

[frankie]

Where are you Mughal, Eagle, Sam, Garudaman,and any other Muslim who reads this?

Where has all your Islamic bravado gone, to defend your "holy "book, said to be clear and easy to understand?

Are we to take it, the Quran cannot be defended,because it is so blatantly wrong?

Come and tell us.

[iffo]

Regarding muddy water. The explanation I find online that it implies what the person saw,. It does not mean Allah is saying it sets in muddy water

[manfred]

Yes, that is what Muslims say, but the Qur'an does not.
Also, this is not how Mohammed understand it:

There is a hadith by Abu Dharr which has Muhammad talking about the sunset:

“Abu Dharr (one of Muhammad’s close companions) was with Muhammad during the sunset. Muhammad asked him: ‘Do you know, O Abu Dharr where this sun sets?’ He answered; ‘God and His apostle know better.’ Muhammad said: ‘It sets in a spring of slimy water’” – al-Zamakhshari, The Kahshaf (3rd Edition, Vol. 2, p. 743, 1987) [1]

Al-Tabari and al-Baydawi also both understood this passage in a literal sense.

“The sun sets in a slimy spring: that is, a well which contains mud. Some of the readers of the Quran read it, ‘…a hot spring’, thus the spring combines the two descriptions. It was said that Ibn ‘Abbas found Mu’awiya reading it (as) hot. He told him, ‘It is muddy,’ Mu’awiya sent to Ka’b al-Ahbar and asked him. ‘Where does the sun set?’ He said in water and mud and there were some people. So he agreed with the statement of ibn al-‘Abbas. And there was a man who composed a few verses of poetry about the setting of the sun in the slimy spring.”– al-Baydawi, The Lights of Revelation (p. 399)
Al-Tabari went so far as to say the pool where the sun sets contains lime (see the Concise Interpretation of Tabari, p. 19 of part 2)[1]

So, this new idea "it appeared as if..." does not square with the Qur'an, nor with Mohammed own words, nor with the understanding of early Muslim writers.

[Fernando]

Regarding muddy water. The explanation I find online that it implies what the person saw,. It does not mean Allah is saying it sets in muddy water

Revisionists. They have to make it fit with modern knowledge.