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Re: Who or what is the paraclete

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:54 pm
by Centaur
Mohamed was an imposter who only wanted to make up stories to trick the gullible pagan Arabs. whatever he heard, depending on the circumstancial nessecity, he either concocted his own version out of itor included it as is like Alexander Romance. jews and christians would have never accepted mohds pagan God as biblical God anyway nor would have they accepted Mohammeds prophethood as no prophet would come in a pagan gods name. So it was existential need for 72 virgin preaching mohd. to introduce his own version of what he heard. :musilmah:

Re: Who or what is the paraclete

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:45 pm
by Eagle
It has been established to any objective reader outside the fold of Christianity how the phenomenon of collective revelation cannot occur outside the messianic age as is alleged to have hapenned by the Greek writers during pentecost. Those that reject the evidence have resolved themselves to accepting that assertion "for argument's sake" so that we might evaluate how the paraclete prediction could apply to the prophet Muhammad. It is therefore expected from them to focus, not on trying to force pentecost as being the fulfillement of the prediction, but in trying to exclude the prophet Muhammad from being implied by the prophet Jesus, in light of the arguments below.

The Greek "paraclete" is used in the New/Greek Testament for a comforter, advocate, counselor etc.
1Jn2:1"..we have an advocate (paraclete) with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."
Here the paraclete is translated as "advocate" (one of a prophet's functions, and although anyone could potentially be qualified as an advocate, the context of its use in the Greek writings is that of an envoy from God) and is applied to Jesus the human prophet recognized by the multitudes as such Matt21:11, who was a human being "made like his brothers in every way"Heb2:17. So when Jesus prays God to send "another" paraclete in Jn14, one can justifiably argue that he is asking God to send another prophet like him who will be an advocate, a couselor and comforter. Like Jesus the advocate 1Jn2:1 and prophet of God Matt21:11. There was never "another" holy spirt. More on that point further down.

The paraclete predicted to come by Jesus cannot be the same thing as the holy spirit filling the people who subsequently become prophets, because of several reasons, some of which already mentionned in the previous pages of this thread:

In Jn16:7-8 Jesus sets the condition that he has first to go away for the paraclete to come, while throughout Luke and other places such as Jn20:21-22 the Holy spirit is present during Jesus' life time and he is even already indwelling the disciples if one wants to equate paraclete with holyspirit in Jn14:17. The NIV footnotes on this particular verse show that it is in the present tense in early manuscripts which renders the verse
"he lives with you and is in you"
and not
"he lives with you and WILL BE in you"
. The aim of bible editors is to promote the idea that the holyspirit was present in Jesus' lifetime but not indwelling the believers yet until Pentecost where the disciples where filled with the holy spirit, and that this is what Jesus meant when he said he will pray God to send "another" paraclete. But this verse's tense in early manuscripts clearly contradicts this notion, besides the simple fact that there was never "another" holy spirit. As a side note, why would it be impossible for the holyspirit to come to the disciples in Jesus' presence when it is established that it can indwell a limitless number of people simultaneously?

As for the disciples "knowing" the paraclete, the direct context is that of Jesus telling his disciples how that other paraclete will be "the spirit of truth" and that they already know that spirit because of it actually being with and in them. The Greek "spirit" is pneuma and is neutral, without gender, which is why it should be rendered "it" not "he" and according to 1Jn4 "the spirit of truth" is what distinguishes, among all the "spirits" the people who accept Jesus as one sent by God
1Jn4"do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God..Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God. This is how we recognize the spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood".
This means that anyone recognizing Jesus as a human being sent by God can be said to have "the spirit of truth" in him such as Muhammad, and by extension the Muslims, as opposed to the spirit of falsehood dwelling in the world that rejects Jesus as God's human envoy.

It says that God dwells, through His spirit, in those who recognize Jesus
"This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit..God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them".
The spirit of truth is therefore coming from God and filling those who recognize Jesus' true identity. Muhammad is the spirit of truth like each true believer in Jesus on his own is the spirit of truth and the disciples addressed by Jesus "know" the paraclete because he is like them filled with the spirit of truth
Jn14:16-17"I will ask the Father, and he will give you another paraclete to help you and be with you forever, the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and is in you"

The expression of being "in" eachother can easily be understood if one looks at the context of its use throughout the NT and its application for both physical and abstract subjects to mean a common position of truth viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18240#p239018

The persecution and rejection of Jesus by his people, the murders of John the Baptist and Zechariah Matt23:30-37, along with the fact that punishement would be unleashed on the nation of Israel, were the main reasons why the apostles grieved. To comfort their grief, Jesus gave them the glad tidings of the paraclete who would honor Jesus' name and bring justice to the world.
The Holy Spirit was already acting before Jesus, and during these times of sorrow for the apostles. The apostles already believed in Jesus, and according to Jn14:17 they even already experienced the indwelling of the holy spirit. If the paraclete was the holyspirit and not seperate from it then how could an indwelling phenomenon cure the reasons of their grief and bring justice considering it has always been present and did not solve anything. They grieved, among other reasons because the people did not believe in Jesus. Since the apostles already believed in Jesus then how does an indwelling paraclete resolve this particular grief?

By the time of their death, the Temple was destroyed, Jerusalem was sacked by the gentiles. So how did the situation change for Jesus' followers? How does the intangible paraclete judge and convict the guilty according to Jesus' prophecies, when many of the apostles were persecuted and killed, after Jesus and after the alleged descent of the holyspirit on them at pentecost Acts4-5,7–9,12:1, 13:42-51,14:2-5,19,17–18,24:5,26:9-11,Gal1:11-16,4:29,Phil3:5-7,1Thess2:14-16. Even some prophets who received the Holy Spirit were killed by the Israelite leadership, as Jesus reported Matt23:37. Such a prophecy about the paraclete being the indwelling holyspirit would never have consoled the apostles, and it is quite clear that by "another paraclete" Jesus was referring to the coming of a "another" prophet.

The very first phrase of Jn14 is
"Do not let your hearts be troubled".
Jesus is clearing making this statement in the context of their total helplessness. In the precedent chapter Jn13 Jesus is speaking of his future betrayal, hinting to his death at the hands of the unbelievers. This added to their already existing sorrow from John and Zechariah's unjust murders which further emphasized their marginalisation and powerless situation. The disciples grieve, prior to the prophecy of the paraclete, at their master Jesus' rejection by his own people and over the fact that according to Matt24, and Jn16 they will all be persecuted and slaughtered as well as
"hated by all nations because of me"
, as repeated in Jn15. They grieved over the coming abomination and destruction of the Temple because of their nation's rejection of Jesus, and their repeated transgressions. In Matt24 Jesus was predicting gloomy days ahead which put the apostles in great distress. Their grief is about what Jesus prophesized as a whole regarding Israel.

The prophecy of the paraclete comes at the climax of their grief, after he announces his disciples' future torments, his impending death, betrayal and denial by his close disciple
Jn16:6"Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief".

He comforts their troubled hearts by giving them the glad tidings of the paraclete, a powerful salvific figure who will put an end to this injustice which he and his followers suffered by judging the guilty, bringing justice and honoring Jesus in a world where he wasnt given any
Jn16"and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged".
He will convict those who rejected Jesus as a worthless liar. As Jesus prophesized many times in the NT, the rejectors were going to be punished for their rejection. For example, he alludes to this in the parable of the King, His Son, and the Servants. The paraclete will receive revelation, will establish justice and convict the guilty. That never happened in the life of the apostles. Men will see this person, and judgement will be laid down, because the people rejected Jesus. Did the apostles ever judge the world and condemn the guilty after allegedly receiving the indwelling Paraclete at Pentecoste? Did judgement ever descend on the gentiles at the hands of the apostles? It never did. Jesus in those statements is speaking in prophetic terminology by addressing them directly as is the case of the long term prediction made in Deut18 where God addresses the ISraelite community, saying that a specific prophet will come to them, but the intent is for the future. In Jesus' days, the Pharisees still awaited the fulfillement of that prophecy and questionned John, asking him if he was "that prophet". Even within the Greek writings, it is a recognized terminology to involve the audience in a long term prophecy. For example it is accepted that Jesus' second coming predictions, although explicitly spoken to the disciples and telling them that they will witness his return, was not meant for their generation.

In Jn14:26 the paraclete is also called the "holy spirit" but this is compromised by the early manuscript, the Codex Syriacus, which omits "holy". However the spirit of truth and the holy spirit refer to the same thing; the spirit of God indwelling those who believe in Jesus and as already seen, the paraclete is termed spirit of truth like any person can be termed on his own "the" spirit of truth when one believes Jesus is a human being sent by God 1Jn4:2-3.
The paraclete described as the spirit of truth in Jn15:26,16:13 (with a small "s" according to the manuscripts of the NIV footnotes on 1Jn4:6) simply means that this salvific figure that will act according to God's orders, brings justice and honor Jesus, will have God's spirit of truth that distinguishes the believers in Jesus from the others.

The paraclete, filled with the spirit of truth that only acts according to God's orders Jn15,16 parallels with the prophecy in Deut18:18 where the prophet shall only speak what he hears, a personality guided by revelation.

The paraclete who is the spirit of truth because of being a believer in Jesus 1Jn4, is acting according to what he is inspired Jn15:26,
16:13-14"When the paraclete comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me..he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me.."

Per Jn14:16 the Father is the only sender of the paraclete and none else. Jesus saying he will send the paraclete in Jn15:26 depends entirely on the will of the Father. As Jesus says, the paraclete comes from the Father and goes out from the Father. Jesus will send him to the world through his prayers Jn14:16 to the Father. The sending of the paraclete depends entirely and exclusively on the Father and Jesus saying he will send him simply means that he will ask God to send him per Jn14:16. It doesnt say the paraclete will come to the people speaking in Jesus' name, but that the Father will send him in Jesus' name meaning at his request as reflected in other translations, because Jesus will pray the Father for this
"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another paraclete"


The Quran given to Muhammad, is the Criterion and the Balance as referred to within the book itself, with which he truly convicted the world of sin for rejecting Jesus, he honored and testified about Jesus' true identity; his humanity, the truthfulness of his prophethood to the Jews ONLY and a precursor of the last prophet, he reminded those claiming to be Jesus' followers of all truth regarding his message
43:59,5:14-16,75"O People of the Book, There has come to you Our messenger to explain to you much of what you have concealed of the book and pardoning much. There has come to you from Allah a light and an obvious book. Allah guides thereby those who follow His pleasure into the ways of peace and brings them out of darkness into the light by His permission and guides them to a straight path....The Messiah son of Marium is not except a messenger, indeed, the messengers before him have passed away".

Re: Who or what is the paraclete

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:31 pm
by Centaur
Paraclete is spirit who will be with you forever and not a deranged child molester.The evidence against mohd is found in islamic sources itself and hence no need for using allegedly followed by a subjective opinion.

Re: Who or what is the paraclete

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:35 am
by manfred
The Qur'an "demoted" Jesus to a basically failed prophet whose message is not known. And the "paraclete" in John's gospel is

a) a "spirit", i.e. not human,
b) someone who is promised to the disciples, not people living 500 years later
c) some who "will stay forever". Mohammed died.

You can also believe Mohammed is also the flying spaghetti monster or the re-incarnation Liberace, if you want, be my guest, knock yourself out.

But you cannot tell Christians what they are meant to believe. For you are not an apostle nor a Christian nor anyone in any authority to teach scripture, nor anyone who even knows the first thing about any Christian texts..


It is plainly ludicrous to suggest that John "really means" Mohammed... and does not deserve a detailed response.

Re: Who or what is the paraclete

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:58 am
by Eagle
A spirit is a man in 1Jn4.

Jesus in those statements is speaking in prophetic terminology by addressing the disciples directly as is the case of the long term prediction made in Deut18 where God addresses the ISraelite community directly, saying that a specific prophet will come to them, but the intent is for the future. In Jesus' days, the Pharisees still awaited the fulfillement of that prophecy and questionned John, asking him if he was "that prophet". Even within the Greek writings, it is a recognized terminology to involve the audience in a long term prophecy. For example it is accepted that Jesus' second coming predictions, although explicitly spoken to the disciples and telling them that they will witness his return, was not meant for their generation.

Muhammad stayed with humanity forever, obviously through the Quran. How is the holyspirit with us today and forever? What is the instant effect to an individual, of the indwelling of the holyspirit according to every single time it occurs in the HB. The person becomes a prophet and starts prophesying. Where are those prophets today?

Re: Who or what is the paraclete

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:28 am
by frankie
Eagle

Jesus told His disciples that He would send the Holy Spirit to them from the Father, after His resurrection.

As a Muslim, you believe Mohammed was sent by God, not by Jesus.

It follows then, if you want to believe Mohammed was sent by Jesus, you must admit Jesus to be God.
But you cannot accept this; Jesus to you was just a prophet, not divine.

This alone tells you Mohammed could not be the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is as the Bible affirms an uncreated entity, a divine entity, it is not a created human being who came 600 years after Jesus giving people an entirely different message from an entirely different god; a message which diametrically opposed the one Jesus and all prophets previously gave to their listeners, which told them to repent from sin, and to obey the commands of God, commands based on love not war.

Mohamed proved he was a false prophet according to what the Bible teaches about them, true prophets speak in the name of the Bible God,YHWH who tell people to obey His commandments.

Mohammed changed what God had revealed previously, he claimed he had been ordered to fight people to bring them to accept an already known pagan idol, which not only told him to oppose all that God had revealed previously, but told him things which are scientifically and historically false.

If you want to claim Mohammed as a prophet of the Bible God, you must accept what the same book tells you how to recognise a true prophet of this God, which Mohammed failed to meet on all counts.

Re: Who or what is the paraclete

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:00 pm
by manfred
A spirit is a man in 1Jn4.


Did you read that passage? :lotpot:

In that passage "spirit" is used to mean a religious teacher, someone who speaks of/teaches spiritual things:

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.


And it does indeed speak of Mohammed, in a way.... it says that those who deny the incarnation are false prophets/teachers.

And the "Spirit of Truth" Jesus promised in John's gospel is clearly not human, as he is sent from God, dwells inside the disciples, and remains for ever. In fact, no early Christian ever expected some murderous sex addict from Saudi Arabia to come and "comfort" or "counsel" them, not before Mohammed, nor after.

Also

It has been established to any objective reader outside the fold of Christianity how the phenomenon of collective revelation cannot occur outside the messianic age as is alleged to have hapenned by the Greek writers during pentecost.


No, you have "established" nothing at all. This has been refuted at least 20 times in this thread, by the simple fact that according to Christianity and Islam Jesus was the Messiah, and hence what happened at Pentacost is not "outside the messianic age". It is dishonest and arrogant to start your post as if what you have said was only denied by stupid or irrational people.

And your sentence is a wonderful example of the "true Scotsman" fallacy: "No true Scotsman would..."

Your argument is simply that anyone who disagrees with your concocted nonsense is not "objective". And that from a Muslim is quite hilarious.

Re: Who or what is the paraclete

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:21 pm
by Eagle
Religious teacher or not, it equates a spirit with a human being. This cancels the argument that the spirit of truth (with a small "s" according to the manuscripts of the NIV footnotes on 1Jn4:6) can only be some intangible entity. As to the passage itself, although it speaks of religious teachers, it includes every human being in its definition of what a spirit from God is; one that recognizes Jesus as a regular human being. This paints trinitarians as examples of spirits of the antichrist. They do not recognize that "Jesus Christ has come in the flesh" rather that "God has come in the flesh".

The Greek writer's report of Jesus' prediction is speaking of a human being, for the reasons mentionned at the top of the page and that were not addressed. Te prediction is using prophetic terminology for the long term, as is done by Jesus himself in other cases that were mentionned, and as is done in the HB.

Repeating 20 or even 200 times that the Quran endorses the theological meaning of the title "Christ/massih" wont make it true, in the face of the Quran's clear words that "Christ/massih" refers to his name only
3:45"whose name is al massih"
Just as is the case with the repetition that simultaneous revelation outside the messianic era is a possibility. This isnt a case of a scotsman fallacy, the original definition of what the messianic age was never changed. The proof of this is that no evidence has been shown that any Jewish group had a different interpretation of the messianic criteria. Which Jewish group ever thought the rebuilding of the physical temple in Jerusalem refers to some inner temple within Christians, or a multiplicity of buildings regardless of the geographical location? Which Jewish group ever thought that the end of disease and sin refers to the end of their previous "consequences"?

Re: Who or what is the paraclete

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:48 pm
by frankie
Eagle

Jesus told His disciples that He would send the Holy Spirit to them from the Father, after His resurrection.

As a Muslim, you believe Mohammed was sent by God, not by Jesus.

It follows then, if you want to believe Mohammed was sent by Jesus, you must admit Jesus to be God.
But you cannot accept this; Jesus to you was just a prophet, not divine.

This alone tells you Mohammed could not be the Holy Spirit.

Re: Who or what is the paraclete

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:26 pm
by manfred
Religious teacher or not, it equates a spirit with a human being. This cancels the argument that the spirit of truth (with a small "s" according to the manuscripts of the NIV footnotes on 1Jn4:6) can only be some intangible entity.


Yes, of course.... Jesus promised the disciples a bottle of Gin...

Does it not occur to you that word are used to mean different things, depending in the context?

And previously you said about "messiah"...

of course it is not a name.


And now it does again...

For those who still want to simply call "al-Masih" a title for Jesus Christ, please consider the following. If today in Saudi Arabia, a ordinary citizen claimed to be the King of Saudi Arabia, and began calling himself the Sheikh of Saudi Arabia, either the authorities would say he was mentally deranged and he would be a laughing stock or they might even escort him out of the country--or worse. When Jesus Christ was born, it was revealed by God that he would be a king. (Injil, Matthew 2) (That is part of what "masih" signifies.) In fact, it was written that he would be the Messianic King. Even though "King" is a title, King Herod did not take this lightly because he understood that "king" had a very clear meaning. As a result, he very cleverly tried to kill Jesus. This type of scenario is constantly occurring around the world today. To say that the term "al-Masih" is simply a title, without meaning, fails to take into account the logical and grammatical sense.

I have several times now pointed out two fact you persistently ignore:

1) it does not matter what the QUr'an mean by "messiah", if Jesus is called the Messiah even by merely a title, then the messianic age began with him.

2) In fact the Qur'anic portrait of Jesus need to also be taken into account.

We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you a messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!


This says 2:87

But according to you the holy spirit does not exist, and it is all about people being drunk....

In the Quran Chapter 3 verses 45 – 55 is says that:
Jesus is
– Word of Allah
– Spirit of Allah
– The nearest to Allah
– The Messiah
– Jesus Christ (i.e. the Messiah)

Islam, in fact, repeats ALL of the Christian teachings about Jesus in various places, except for the divinity of Christ, and the death on the cross. Jesus, born of a virgin, the "spirit of Allah", the Messiah, Jesus ascended to heaven, Jesus to return in the last day.

So you can twist and turn, in your own religion is a "messiah", so the "messianic age" began with him. If you keep saying the same nonsense, it will be pointed out.

Re: Who or what is the paraclete

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:27 pm
by Eagle
Neither does a bottle of spirit, nor does the indwelling spirit need Jesus' departure to come to the disciples. BEsides the fact that a bottle of spirit, or the indwelling spirit are known to fill a limitless number of people simultaneously, without the need for any given person to first leave this earth. How does the indwelling spirit or the bottle of gin cure the reasons of the apostels' grief as described earlier, and bring justice or honor Jesus considering they both have always been present and did not solve anything? By the time of their death, the Temple was destroyed, Jerusalem was sacked by the gentiles. So how did the situation change for Jesus' followers? How does the intangible spirit and a bottle of gin judge and convict the guilty according to Jesus' prophecies, when many of the apostles were persecuted and killed, after Jesus and after the alleged descent of the holyspirit on them at pentecost and their drunk-like state mockingly alluded to by the scribes and Pharisees? Did the apostles ever judge the world and condemn the guilty after receiving the indwelling paraclete or the bottle of gin at pentecost? Did judgement ever descend on the gentiles at the hands of the apostles? It never did. And although one may ave a bottle of spirit available today and maybe forever, how is the holyspirit with us today and forever? What is the instant effect to an individual, of the indwelling of the holyspirit according to every single time it occurs in the HB. The person becomes a prophet and starts prophesying. Where are those prophets today?

manfred wrote:And previously you said about "messiah"...

of course it is not a name.


The above was never written.

Re: Who or what is the paraclete

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:37 pm
by Eagle
Of course the holyspirit exists, however not as described for pentecost. Neither from the point of view of the possibility of it simultaneously indwelling many at once to allow collective revelation prior to the messianic age, neither from the point of view of its effect on the recipient.

As regards the statement
3:45"Allah gives you good news with a word/kalima from Him (of one) whose name is al massih, Isa son of Marium".
Kalimatun, which means word or statement has a feminine designation. Yet the statement that follows uses the masculine, making Jesus and word/statement 2 distinct entities.
In this verse, Jesus was the word/kalima of Allah because he was the physical proof of the prophecy conveyed to Mary, and in this way, he became the physical representation, ie the testament to God's word, not the word itself, just like the prophet Yahya was the physical proof of God's prophecy conveyed to Zakariya
3:39"Allah gives you the good news of Yahya verifying a word/kalima from Allah".
Kalimatullah in these contexts is simply the word of God in the sense of His promise as amply used in the Quran 6:34,115,10:64,18:27 etc. Such divine word is a command that can never be reversed or altered once issued 13:41, it can be the promise of victory and assistance to the messengers and their followers, or the promise of chastisement to the rejecters, or again the promises of miracles or blessings whether in this life or the next etc.
4:171"The messiah, Jesus, son of Mary was none other than Allah's envoy and His statement/kalima, He casted it towards Mary including a life giving breath from Him (Allah)".
Here Jesus represents God's statement or word from a different angle, he is the product of the creative word "Be" that was cast into Mary.

The particularities of Yahya/John and Jesus' births, do not make any of them different or special than other human beings in terms of their physical nature, neither were these miraculous circumstances necessary to accomodate the births of some individuals with special physical characteristics. In fact Jesus' very first word was to declare his servitude to God, besides declaring other lofty aspects of his identity, as well as empasizing the tenets of monotheism 19:30. They both were mortals, made from exactly the same elements as other humans, through God's creative word 2:117"Be" which symbolizes an instant process fully in His grasp
3:59"Surely the likeness of Isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be", and he was".
They are both the manifestation of the creative word.

Jesus is also a spirit from/proceeding from Allah like Adam and all his progeny received the spirit from Allah 32:9,38:71-2. The action of Allah sending something from Him to fill the recipient is done with other things, for example His sakina/the soothing calmness that filled Muhammad and the believers 9:26.
The main idea behind the statement, "then said to him "Be" and he was", often used for God's creative action, is that Allah masters the laws of causality to the extent He can alter them at will and encounters no resistance or failure in the process
41:11"Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth: Come both, willingly or unwillingly. They both said: We come willingly".
God's creative word simply lays stress on His unlimited power to bring into being a new, and completely different chain of causes and effects, the length of which depends on perspective
54:50"And Our command is but one, as the twinkling of an eye".
As it says when speaking of the relativity of time from a human vs a divine perspective
70:6-7"Surely they think it to be far off, And We see it nigh".

Re: Who or what is the paraclete

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:45 pm
by frankie
Eagle

Where does the Quran get the title Messiah for Jesus from?

Re: Who or what is the paraclete

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:50 pm
by Eagle
Muslims must regard all prophets and messengers as equals 2:136,3:84, but from Allah's perspective He has exalted some above others in particular aspects 2:253,17:55 like in the manner in which revelation was bestowed upon them or in the type of signs they were given to confirm their prophethood, or in the universality of their message. For example, as in the verse 2:87 that was quoted, Moses spoke to and was spoken to directly and repeatedly by Allah 4:164,7:143 possibly because he needed a special kind of reassurance considering the magnitude of the opposition, whether internal with the rebellious Israelites or external with the ruthless Pharao. Jesus was a living sign of Allah to the people, along with his mother 21:91,23:50 and the RUH al qudus/breeze of holiness was of more prominent importance upon him than with other prophets, hence its mention as a distinguishing feature of his. Besides its basic role of inspiration, it is associated with giving him strength and the aptitude to perform spectacular miracles 2:87,5:110.

There is a very deep and relevant reason for which the Quran in 2:253 has specifically pointed out Moses and Jesus in the context of God's exaltedness of some prophets above others in particular aspects. The Jews regard it as an article of faith to declare Moses the greatest of all prophets that preceded and followed him, precisely because of the reason mentionned in the verse, ie the manner in which God spoke to him without intermediaries like angels. This discrimnation reflects even in the manner in which they have classified and canonized their books, following a descending order of "holiness" depending on the manner in which God communicated with the personalities who authored them.

Christians on the other hand regard Jesus to be the greatest of all prophets sent to mankind, even raising him to the status of a deity, precisely because of those qualities spoken of in 2:253 and that Allah made to shine through him more than with other prophets; the manifestation of the holy spirit through him and the wonders he performed.

That is where the Quran steps in, saying that all prophets received clear signs 57:25 and all of them received God's spirit/breath of prophecy carried down into their hearts by angelic messengers 16:2 and although God's spirit filled some prophets with more intensity than others, were able to perform more spectacular signs than others, or were sometimes spoken to without angelic intermediaries, it is Allah who, in His wisdom, has exalted them in some particular aspects. Therefore from a true believer's perspective it is not befitting to discriminate among God's messengers in terms of status, holiness or relevancy, or in light of the manner God communicated with them and in fact the Quran reminds that the process of inspiration isnt something for humans to dwell upon since only a little knowledge of it has been imparted to us 17:85.

Muslims are required first and foremost as one of the pillars of faith to believe in the existence and truthfulness of all of God's envoys, humans or angels 2:177,285. Secondly, as regards the human messengers, they must be revered and accepted on the same level, not making any distinction between them in terms of status. In order to stress that particular point to its audience among the people of the book, who were most guilty of that type of partisanship, the Quran, revelation bestowed upon the Ishmaelite prophet, mentions the Abrahamic lineage and the illustrous names among them, Abraham, his 2 righteous sons and prophets, Ishmael and Isaac, and then emphasizes the correct, non-prejudiced perspective as regards the noble institution of prophethood by praising the Israelite line of prophets, citing Jacob, and implicitly the many prophets that were sent among his descendants (al asbat), with the 2 most influential being Moses and Jesus, then finally ends with a general mention of "the prophets" that includes all of God's envoys sent to the world
3:84,4:152,2:136"Say:'We believe in Allah and in what has been sent down to us, and what was sent down to Abraham and, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no difference between any of them. And to Him do we submit".
Again, these verses are Medinian, addressing the people of the book and demonstrating the unprejudiced and non-discriminatory perspective of the Quran regarding prophethood, hence the passing mention of the prophetic line through Abraham and Ishmael (implicitly in 3:33) and the focus on the Israelite line.

It is worthwhile to note the term used in the Quran when speaking of the continuous sending of prophets following Moses in 2:87. It says qafayna, derived from q-f-w meaning the back of the neck. The verb means to follow (because you follow the back of someone). It is a word used to describe a poetically structured text or speech because it denotes a close, synchronized, harmonious succession. In the same way, the prophets were closely synchronized in their message, and Allah in the Quran repeatedly states how all revelations are one in essence 46:9,21:7‑10,4:163. This by the way not only is meant at denying any discrimination among them, but it also means that none of those noble personalities deviated in the message he was conveying so as to depart from a well established pattern (as would've been the case for example with the deification of Jesus).

Re: Who or what is the paraclete

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:04 pm
by Centaur
Mohammed is no prophet as he came in the name of a pagan deity, not Yahweh. and even briefly claimed that it has 3 daughters. A common criminal got higher moral standards than Mohammed as he would not lust after his daughter in law nor a child.

Re: Who or what is the paraclete

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:06 pm
by glitch
Just love how muslims ignore "forever." constantly.

Re: Who or what is the paraclete

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:38 pm
by manfred
eagle wrote: manfred wrote:
And previously you said about "messiah"...

of course it is not a name.

The above was never written.


My mistake, sorry, you said "paraclete" was not a name, even though at some point it was, according to you, I think...

So "Messiah" is a title. And it applies ONLY to Jesus in the qur'an, so "the messianic age" starts with who? Vladimir Putin?

So far you said... when Jesus promised the "Holy Spirit" he "really meant some disgusting, violent man who lived 500 years later. And the things in Pentecost are all due to drink.

And we should take "counsel" from a 6th century pervert, rapist and mass murderer. OK, we got that, and if you peddled this nonsense at the door, you would not get nearly as much time as you had here.

Well, you can believe such things if you must, but don't pass your disease to others by telling them about it, or by pretending it is reasonable.

You are picking out bits from Christian texts and re-arrange them to make it fit you crazy idea. And you ignore all the things that show you this cannot be right.

Perhaps it is also worth pointing out to you that Christianity, unlike Islam is not fundamentalist. Our religious texts REFLECT was the early Christians believed, and they did not "define" that belief. They are a product of the belief of the early church, not the source for the belief. Your "reading" of biblical texts is therefore unhistorical, and false in the sense as they distort the religious environment they are from.

There is nothing about Mohammed in the Torah, nor the New Testament, unless you want to apply the references to false prophets to him. So the Qur'an is lying when it says he is mentioned in these texts.

You cannot, even with your best efforts, create something out of nothing.

Re: Who or what is the paraclete

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:51 pm
by Eagle
Messiah is not a title but a name in the Quran, just as it was since the apostolic age and even in secular terminology.

An error remains one regardless of how far in time it goes back. Especially if one considers the manner in which Christianity and its selected texts originated...

Re: Who or what is the paraclete

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:55 pm
by manfred
How many people are called "Messiah"? Is it a first name or a family name? So Jesus' name was "Jesus Christ"? Because his dad came from the long line of the "Christ" family? His name was "Jo Christ", married to "Mary Christ", born "Mary Virgin"?

eagle...

start talking sense.

Re: Who or what is the paraclete

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:38 pm
by frankie
Eagle

Where does the Quran get the title Messiah for Jesus from?