15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”
It is equally dishonest to repeat the false notion that one may reinterpret what has now admittedly been described as 100% clear messianic criteria in the HB by seperating between a supposed Jewish understanding and a Christian one while these criteria are not subject to reinterpretation and neither do the Greek writers of the Gospels claim such a thing.
"For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead so that in everything He might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him and through him to reconcile to himself all things whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."
How does one reinterpret the fact that the temple was never rebuilt by Jesus or that death and sin never ended?
Once the above is understood and assimilated, we can move to how the prediction applies to the Ishmaelite prophet.
Eagle wrote:@manfred
The Quran doesnt apply the title, but the name massih/christ as is clear from the angelic annouciation listing to Mary what people will name him.
The messianic age cannot be ushered solely by an individual's birth, even if it is the one with the required lineage, which wasnt Jesus' case anyway. That person needs to accomplish a list of things to validate his claim and to bring forth the messianic age.
Claiming the criteria are not 100% clear and failing to produce such an instance doesnt constitute a proper defence. One cannot claim to have a legitimate different point of view, if it is based on a faulty representation of the same independent information, which is the HB. For example the Greek authors create new characteristics which werent part of the original requirements, such as divine sonship. The understanding of those HB passages hasnt changed regardless of when or where they were read, or can any Christian point to a different messianic expectation by any Jewish group prior to Jesus? How does one metaphorically apply any single one of those criteria to Jesus, for example how is the exclusion of Jeconiah from the lineage a metaphorical criteria? Using which textual justification outside of the Greek authors' opinions, can one bend a clear criteria such as the rebuilding of a specific temple in a specific location where animal sacrifices and a priestly institution must be established, into the notion that this Jerusalem temple which was meant by te original author is no longer a fixed location? To argue that this point, among others, can be read in a different manner, then one would have to produce evidence from the same author or the same book allowing such an alternative reading. Bringing the opinion of an unknown author, disconnected from every aspects (time, language, religion etc) to the original author and simply present his views in support is a poor argument. How does the text in which the disapearance of sin and death is mentionned, allow for the reinterpratation of "disapearance" into "different consequences"?
The Quran doesnt apply the title, but the name massih/christ as is clear from the angelic annouciation listing to Mary what people will name him.
Eagle wrote:@frankie
The Quran doesnt give the name massih/christ to Isa and neither does it tell his mother what to call him with, as in the Gospel's account. It informs her of how he will be designated. Had the angel told her what she should call him by then it would be endorsing a theological meaning to the name. The nuance is clear. When a Jew, a Muslim or any non-Christian refers to Jesus as massih/christ, it is in reference to a proper name, since the Apostolic age, whether in modern or ancient usage, even in secular termminology, without any connection to the biblical theological implications.
The Quran doesnt give the name massih/christ to Isa
Eagle wrote:@manfred
It isnt a question of 1st century AD interpretation or of various notions within the HB of what is expected of the predicted messiah, otherwise it would be easy to provide, as requested, as single Jewish group endorsing different opinions of those clear criteria. Specific questions were asked to which no answers were given; how can one adopt an alternate meaning of a statement without justifying that understanding from any statement from the original author? Which statement within the HB allows for the single physical temple of Jerusalem to be an indwelling abstract notion or a multiplicity of buildings regardless of the location? Which statement within the HB allows for the cursed Jeconiah to be part of the messiah's lineage?
It isnt a repetition to point to the fact that a list of messianic claimants doesnt help the case for an alternate interpretation by any Jewish group of the clear messianic criteria of the HB.
"whose name is al massih, Isa son of Marium"
who is al massih, Isa son of Marium
but means "title".his name is al massih
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