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Re: Who or what is the paraclete

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:13 pm
by manfred
"Christ" was NEVER a "name" as such in Christianity, as you have been told by now dozens of times. It was merely USED LIKE a name, just as you say "the Queen" or "the President". And you cannot have a name with a definite article, that really should be obvious to anyone. And the second name "Christ" is a GERMAN second name. "Christ" in German means "Christian". "Christ"(the English word) is "Christus" in German.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_(surname)

I am getting bored with this, as you STILL have not told us why on earth Mohammed is the paraclete/holy spirit....

Re: Who or what is the paraclete

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:25 pm
by Eagle
Christ and "the Christ" were both proper names, and very early on. Repeating that it wasnt, creating nuances, wont make it true in light of the explicit statement from the encyclopedia.

Christ in German is from the Latin personal name Christus/Christ. https://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=christ

Re: Who or what is the paraclete

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:27 pm
by frankie
Eagle wrote:Christ with a "t" is a common surname. The case of the child who had to change his name goes back a few years. Many kids nowadays, especially in America are named Messiah. As the encyclopedia states, even with the definite article, it became one of Jesus' proper names and very early on. Whether others later adopted that name together with the article or not, does nothing to its specific application as a proper name to Jesus, which the Quran refers to. Anyone outside the Christian fold referring to Jesus as "the Christ" is using one of his proper names, without any theological implications.

Again, Al massih was attached to his name, because he had a following that believed, just like with many presumed messiahs, that he would fulfill the requirements laid down in the HB (none of which have anything to do with divinity, incarnation and other "mysteries" of the Greek writers). Because of the anticipation for a salvific figure to come soon, many interpreted his sayings and actions as qualifying him for the potential position. The difference however between Jesus and other messianic claimants, is that his following managed to survive long enough, eventually taking on the pagan institutions and pagan population, perpetuating the association between Jesus and his honorific messianic title that gradually became equivalent to his proper name. The Quran treats it as a name because it is an objective, historical reality.


Eagle

You present not one shred of evidence for anything you claim, why should anyone believe you,even over your own "holy"book which tells you, Jesus as THE Messiah,not Messiah Jesus, or Jesus Messiah, indicating that the word Messiah is part of Jesus' name?

The Quran even tells you that Jesus was born sinless, which marks Him out as no ordinary man, no one is sinless except God, why then should the Quran(Allah) hold Jesus in such a position that it places Him as a divine figure, and not a mortal man like all other prophets?

Re: Who or what is the paraclete

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:43 pm
by manfred
"THE Christ/Messiah" is a name... just as "THE village idiot"....

There are lots of people whose passport says "Bob THE Village Idiot"....

Re: Who or what is the paraclete

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:51 pm
by Eagle
Whether it is grammatically correct in English or not to use the article with a proper name is irrelevant. Jesus didnt speak English and all semitic languages, including the one spoken by Jesus, commonly use their own equivalent of a definite article with proper names. As is the case with Al massih

Re: Who or what is the paraclete

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:06 pm
by manfred
LOL No they don't, only like this:

Abd al Alim Servant OF the omniscient Noticed it does NOT say Al Abd ....

By the way, do tell me about the definite article in Aramaic... last time I looked, there was none...

Do you know ANYONE called "the Messiah"??? (or "the village idiot")?

Re: Who or what is the paraclete

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:07 pm
by Eagle
Aramaic like every semitic language uses the definite article. Arabs use the article with or without the first name. A contemporary notorious example among many is the Lebanese prime minister Saad al Hariri. He is never simply called Hariri, but always al Hariri even when it is only his last name that is mentionned.

The question on English grammar is irrelevant.

Re: Who or what is the paraclete

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:14 pm
by manfred
Aramaic has determinative forms of nouns, and that is not the same. But that is a red herring anyway, as the gospels are in Greek, and nowhere in any of the texts of the NT is "Messiah" a name.

Show me an example in the Qur'an where a firstname is preceded by "al" as in "oh THE Mohammed, do not forbid what I allow and have sex with anything that does not climb a tree by the time you count to three", or perhaps "Oh the Moses, the Samaritan has been very naughty, even though he does not exist yet...." "Oh the Joseph, how many dihams did you pay for you colourful coat? Did you get it from Amazon?"

And as you well know, "Saad al Hariri" is not his actual name. Translated his name says "Saad of the line/order of Rafik of the Hariri" سعد الدين رفيق الحريري No "the Saad"

In fact, the use of the definitive articles in Arabic is the same is in pretty much the same as in English.

So we are clear now that "THE Messiah" in the Qur'an, as everywhere else, is a title (which, like many titles can also sometimes used to refer to a person, as if it were a name)

Therefore Jesus, according to the Qur'an, is the "Messiah". Therefore the "messianic age" has begun with him. Therefore your argument against Pentacost has been refuted. It never was much of an argument anyway, as it relied on the at best tentative idea that no more than one "revelation" can occur simultaneously before it. In fact when a biblical author suggests that many revelation will occur THEN, so that does than mean none can before?

As to "messianic age" Christianity has a two-stages model, if you like. The age starts with Christ returning to heaven, where he rules, but eventually extends further when Jesus returns on judgement day and the earth also is under his rule, to put it simply.

Re: Who or what is the paraclete

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:21 pm
by Eagle
@the person currently using manfred's account

Aramaic has a definite article of course, like every Semitic language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Aramaic and it is far from being a red herring since, regardless of the language of the Greek authors, Jesus spoke Aramaic, his people too. The Gospels are a translation of the oral Aramaic tradition.

Who says al massih is Jesus' first name. It is a proper name. Saad al HAriri is the Lebanese prime minister's name. His full name is Saad El-Din Rafik Al-Hariri and "al Hariri" with the article in front is used even without the first name, whether it is the shortened first name or the full one.

Regardless of how many models Christianity claims having for what the messiah is, none of these theories have any basis in the HB.

In case someone forgets what this thread is about, and that there are still many issues relating to the paraclete prophecy that apply to the prophet Muhammad and that werent adressed yet viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18240&start=80#p239270

Re: Who or what is the paraclete

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:48 pm
by manfred
It is utterly irrelevant as the emphatic form of a noun in Aramaic is not the same as a definite article. And all NT texts are in Greek, so Aramaic Gammar, which you are clueless of, is not relevant anyway. Jesus does call himself THE Messiah, and he is called THE Messiah in the NT texts, but not as a name. So only an idiot can suggest this means it is his name, or someone who want to hide Mohammed's clanger about the Messiah in Qur'an.

as to "al" in Arabic names, "al Hariri" means of the family of Hariri. Sometimes Arabs also use a place name in this way: Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi means Abu Bakr from Baghdad. (literally "the Baghdad guy")

I have asked you to provide examples of names with the definite article from the Qur'an, such as "the Mohammed" and of course you can't. Case closed.


Regardless of how many models Christianity claims having for what the messiah is, none of these theories have any basis in the HB.


That is a matter of interpretation, and Christians totally disagree. In fact there is a substantial number of passages in the HB that Christians relate to Jesus.

In case someone forgets what this thread is about, and that there are still many issues relating to the paraclete prophecy that apply to the prophet Muhammad


There is no "paraclete prophecy" that applies to Mohammed. The only passages in the NT that apply to Mohammed are those about false prophets.

The whole of this thread is a bunch of tripe.

Re: Who or what is the paraclete

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:19 am
by Eagle
Of course "ho christos" isnt used as a name in the Greek Testament. It became so later, as proven from the encyclopedia. "ho christos" Aramaic equivalent "mscheecha" the "a" is the suffixed definite article, as explained in the first link. "mscheecha" and the Arabic Al massih became proper names, and it is known that in semetic languages, such as with the example of al hariri, one can refer to a name together with its definite article. How does the absence of another example from the Quran specifically negate that practice.

So which passage of the HB relates to Jesus? And this is a challenge question.

Obviously no Christian is able to address the paraclete issue.

Re: Who or what is the paraclete

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:36 am
by manfred
"proven" from an encyclopaedia??? Really, that is "proof"? And article saying that "Christ" was used to refer to Jesus by way of a short cut? This has been answered a dozen times.

And in Aramaic the suffix makes the the emphatic form of a noun, which is different from a definite article. It also says that in your link.

And the use of the article in Arab names has been explained to you, twice by now.

There is no example of a name being given the definite article, anywhere in the Qur'an, nor anywhere in modern Arabic. Names in Arabic are usually followed by a qualifying description, such as "the son of..." or similar. Only in this description can you find a definite article, never with any name.

Nobody says "the Mohammed" or "the Ibrahim"....

And this is why you cannot find it in the Qur'an. So, as usual, you are lying again.

So which passage of the HB relates to Jesus? And this is a challenge question.

Quite a few, google it. Or, at any time in December, go to attend a "Carol service" in any church, you will have them read to you, even with music in between.

Obviously no Christian is able to address the paraclete issue.


The "issue" of Mohammed being the holy spirit/paraclete has been shown to be utter nonsense many times over in this thread and I am not responsible if you cannot read what you are told.