the seat of thought and intention

[Eagle]

None can start something out of nothingness, except the original Creator. The real person and prophet called Adam who wrote parts of the psalms, is the result of a process, originating from a variety of inorganic material, and water, fashioned and formed, into an entity that reproduced, and then made complete with the spirit of moral consciousness from the Creator.

[manfred]

Please show me were each of these things are stated in the Qur'an, first of all.

You cannot make something out of nothing and out of SOMETHING AT THE SAME TIME. You are merely taking the garbage from the QUr'an and repackage it, adding things as you go along.

[Eagle]

Where does it say that the creation from nothingness and inorganic matter was simultaneous? The processes of creation were given there viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18238&start=60#p239120" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[manfred]

None can start something out of nothingness, except the original Creator. The real person and prophet called Adam who wrote parts of the psalms, is the result of a process, originating from a variety of inorganic material, and water, fashioned and formed, into an entity that reproduced, and then made complete with the spirit of moral consciousness from the Creator.

Where does it say any of this in the Qur'an? WORD for WORD, please....

And you can twist it as much as as you want, not even Allah can create things both out of nothing and out of something else. That is simply nonsense.

[Eagle]

Word for word in the link. No such thing as simultaneous creation from nothingness and inorganic materials in the Quran.

[manfred]

You did not give a link. And if you sequence the daft things the Qur'an says, it is no better.

So first man is created from nothing. Hey presto, there he is. No he isn't.... Allah uncreates him, and makes a new one from water, then he uncreates that one, and he uses dust.... then mud, then a blood clot....

Can you really not see that is stupid?

[skynightblaze]

When quran says man was created from nothing , its actually denying of any process that led to man's creation. So quran is flatly denying evolution with that statement and also denies any prior state of man in form of ingredients such as clay , mud etc but then the joker (the author of quran) speaks somewhere else of man coming out of clay , dust, water, sperm and what not.

[Garudaman]

Hello Garudaman

Your quote -
humans feels their sensation of their thought in their head/brain, & feels their sensation of their intention in their chest/breast/heart, & is not their thought that makes humans blind, but their intention,

This is nonsense. Thoughts lead to conclusions and intentions, not the other way round. You can not have an intention without the brain having to think either consciously or subconsciously to decide if there is or is not a correct belief or intention. You are putting the cart before the horse.

that verse talk about the sensation not the source of human intention.

Your quote -
people need the proper heart for the proper brain-function/reasoning,

Please explain why the heart is needed for proper reasoning. The only function the heart has with regard to this topic is to keep the brain alive and well so that it can reason properly. The heart has no other link at all to reasoning.

that verse is not talking about the heart as organ, but the heart as the place where the sensation of intention is felt.

If people can not see that if the sun sets in a muddy pool then that claim can not be from a god then their reasoning is very wrong and so would that indicate a faulty heart or just a faulty brain?

that verse of the Quran said that the sun looks like sets in muddy pool from the Cyrus's point of view.

[manfred]

that verse is not talking about the heart as organ, but the heart as the place where the sensation of intention is felt.

In your country that is the liver though....

And the point I was raising is that at the time people really did think mental activity originates in the heart, and the Qur'an merely used that idea without questioning.

Why "understanding heart"? Why not mind/head/brain?

that verse of the Quran said that the sun looks like sets in muddy pool from the Cyrus's point of view.

Show me the bit where is says "from Cyrus's point of view" please. Also why would the Qur'an then speak of this place like a real place, with people living there?

[frankie]

Hello Garudaman

Your quote -
humans feels their sensation of their thought in their head/brain, & feels their sensation of their intention in their chest/breast/heart, & is not their thought that makes humans blind, but their intention,

This is nonsense. Thoughts lead to conclusions and intentions, not the other way round. You can not have an intention without the brain having to think either consciously or subconsciously to decide if there is or is not a correct belief or intention. You are putting the cart before the horse.

that verse talk about the sensation not the source of human intention.

Your quote -
people need the proper heart for the proper brain-function/reasoning,

Please explain why the heart is needed for proper reasoning. The only function the heart has with regard to this topic is to keep the brain alive and well so that it can reason properly. The heart has no other link at all to reasoning.

that verse is not talking about the heart as organ, but the heart as the place where the sensation of intention is felt.

If people can not see that if the sun sets in a muddy pool then that claim can not be from a god then their reasoning is very wrong and so would that indicate a faulty heart or just a faulty brain?

that verse of the Quran said that the sun looks like sets in muddy pool from the Cyrus's point of view.

Garudaman

that verse of the Quran said that the sun looks like sets in muddy pool from the Cyrus's point of view

The verse is quite clear, it says nothing of the sun looking like it sets in a muddy pool, the Quran is wrong on both counts as proved again by Allah and Mohammed by Abu Dawud.

The tafsir clarifies this verse by stating Zul- qarnain found "unbelievers" at the place where the sun sets, who should be killed or pardoned depending on whether they accept Allah as the only god to worship, which is the what the "message" of the Quran Is fundamentally about.


Quran 18.86

Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness

Tafsir 18.86
Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs

Till, when he reached the setting place of the sun) where the sun sets, (he found it setting in a muddy spring) a blackened, muddy and stinking spring; it is also said that this means: a hot spring, (and found a people thereabout) these people were disbelievers: (We said: O Dhu'l-Qarnayn!) We inspired him (Either punish) either kill them until they accept to believe that there is no deity except Allah (or show them kindness) or you pardon them and let them be.


Mohammed is reported to have said the sun sets in a spring of warm water because Allah told him so.

But Allah was wrong, the sun sets nowhere, it is an illusion, which should be stated in the Quran to make this clear; by saying the sun sets in a spring/murky water the Quran proves it does not come from an omncient being, but from the imagination of men who didn't know any better.

Sunan Abu Dawud : Dar-us-Salam reference / Hadith 4002
Narrated Abu Dharr:

I was sitting behind the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets ? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water (Hamiyah).

Indexes

Dar-us-Salam reference Sunan Abu Dawud Hadith 4002
Ahmad Hasan translation Hadith 3991

[skynightblaze]

Show me the bit where is says "from Cyrus's point of view" please.

You are hitting the nail on the head. From the way Eagle , Garudman and other muslims debate, it becomes obvious that they try to put words into quran's mouth to cover up. When there are no words mentioned explicitly , there is no good reason for us to believe quran meant whatever explanation these muslims provide e.g eagle claims basic ingredients are mixed together to form a human but quran no where states that or Garudman states that sun is sets from Cyrus' point of view. Quran does not say that at all. If these muslims are allowed to do such things then we should also get a privilege of putting words into quran's mouth and claim for problems. E.g quran never said you should not rape and hence it means quran approves rape.

2. If there is a tiny bit of doubt, the benefit does not go to muslim. I have seen non muslims falling for this trick and they believe they lost the debate. The benefit goes to the non muslim and not to the muslim. The reason is - muslims are making the tallest claims in the world such as these words coming from an all wise God. There is zero room for lack communication, lack of clarity and errors (no matter how minor) when such is the case. Quran will be scrutinized with the highest possible standards because of the grandiosity of the claim. We don't expect lack of clarity and doubt from all wise God especially when we human beings can write in a language that is very clear E.g if we write comprehend with your brain and not heart then there would be no room for confusion. Why call Allah all wise when he cannot write even as clear as a human?

[Eagle]

It speaks of an extract of various non-organic, earthly elements, and water. In some of these verses it speaks of dust, dry clay at others of muddy, sticky clay, indicating that a combination of elements (the aforementionned water and dry matter) was involved at the beginning of the process.

The Grand Quran is a book of spiritual guidance and all of its statements are meant at stimulating spiritual growth, not scientific knowledge so the idea that it must provide a detailed description of the origin of life is misplaced. When it does allude to such process, its spiritual aim, as is clear from the context, includes the humbling of mankind by pointing to the earthly elements and water at its origins, as well as providing an argument for the simplicity of the concept of resurrection.

None of its statements however, no matter the subject treated, are at odds with factual information, whether historical, archeological, scientific etc.

And where does the Quran say that the sun sets in the ground or the water?

[sum]

Hello Eagle

You keep talking about spirituality. What is Islamic spirituality and how does it manifest itself?

Is it different to Christian spirituality?

sum

[manfred]

The Grand Quran is a book of spiritual guidance and all of its statements are meant at stimulating spiritual growth, not scientific knowledge so the idea that it must provide a detailed description of the origin of life is misplaced.

If this is you saying that the Qur'an is not a book of science, we finally agree on something. Also, it is true that a writer with another, not science related intention, would not be writing about such thing in detail. But then things get somewhat messy....

A human author, sure, would also be making errors here in and there, but what, if there was a divine writer? Would he not at least be accurate, even when lacking detail?

Man does not consist of a combination of dust and mud, with water and blood, semen (whose ???) and some other sticky mess thrown in. Also when you mix "day clay", as you will have it, mix with water, what do you get? So what is the point about adding more mud?

And if you make something out of nothing then you cannot also make is out of something. It is one or the other, even for Allah.

The Qur'an does not say "I started with nothing, then I took some dust, then I added water to make a sort of mud, and then...."

It says, each time, at a different "material" is used AND NO OTHER.

There is a way to harmonise all this, bu saying ALL these are ways of saying man is made from something insignificant, but this would mean you have to concede that Adam was not a real person.

So you are stuck with a pile of contradiction and no way out.

None of its statements however, no matter the subject treated, are at odds with factual information, whether historical, archeological, scientific etc.

Eagle, now don't be silly. If we ask science or history or archaeology about the origin of man we do not get anything even remotely like the answer the Qur'an gives.

Previously your leaps of logic went like this: Evolution is a process. The Qur'an speaks of a process. So evolution agrees with the Qur'an. How about Falling in love is a process. Root canal treatment is a process. So Falling in Love and Root Canal treatment are the same thing.

As to the setting place of the sun and what the Qur'an and Mohammed said about that, Frankie gave you the references above, maybe you did not read it?

[Eagle]

The verses speaking of the origins of life constantly and consistenly describe a gradual process, fashioning, forming, reproduction (where the alaqa and the sperm are involved) and completition with the spirit from God.

As to giving different aspects of mankind's origins in different places, fundamentally, all languages inherently accept exceptions unless the statement is clearly absolute, or that no other statements from the same source exist to allow the exlusion. The Quran speaks in several places of different non organic compounds at mankind's origins and in none of these verses does it make at absolute assertion. To suggest that such formulation entails an allegory reveals poor reading and reasoning skills.

Obviously the original absence of organic life entails it originated from inorganic compounds, earthly material and water, which were themselves created like every thing else in the universe that originated in nothingness.

No scientist would disagree with the above except for the divine cause and spiritual dimension.

As to evolution, it was said that the Quran certainly, through its repeated allusion to a process preceding the completion of the first morally accountable human being, endorses "a" not "the" theory of evolution. No leap in logic in this.

So where is the Quranic statement that the sun sets in an earthly location.

[manfred]

The verses speaking of the origins of life constantly and consistenly describe a gradual process, fashioning, forming, reproduction (where the alaqa and the sperm are involved) and completition with the spirit from God.

You posted all that before, almost word for word.. Please do not endlessly repeat the same thing.

Please show me the word "process" in any of the verses given. The passages are all from different places, so it is unreasonable to suggest they represent a sort of sequence.

And where does it say "fashioning, forming reproduction"?

And how on earth does that describe evolution?

And do tell, WHOSE sperm is used in the creation of Adam?

[Eagle]

@sum

Spirituality is an entity within eachone that is in constant flux, either towards the state referred to in the Quran as al nafs al mutmainna/the tranquil self or the state called al nafs al ammara bil sou'/the self inciting towards evil, depending on whether it is nurtured or neglected. Islamic spirituality is about providing the right tools to reach and maintain as much as possible the secure, tranquil inner self.

[Eagle]

@manfred

Repetition helps an audience unable to process too much information at once.

The sperm of his biological father, as with all incomplete species preceding mankind's completion with the spirit from God. However that specific step is preceded by a process. This was explained there, together with specific verses, each on their own, speaking of the process at life's origins. viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18238&start=60#p239120" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Again, the Quran endorses "a" not "the" theory of evolution.

[Eagle]

So where is the Quranic statement that the sun sets in an earthly location

[manfred]

So where is the Quranic statement that the sun sets in an earthly location

The verse is quite clear, it says nothing of the sun looking like it sets in a muddy pool, the Quran is wrong on both counts as proved again by Allah and Mohammed by Abu Dawud.

The tafsir clarifies this verse by stating Zul- qarnain found "unbelievers" at the place where the sun sets, who should be killed or pardoned depending on whether they accept Allah as the only god to worship, which is the what the "message" of the Quran Is fundamentally about.


Quran 18.86

Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness

Tafsir 18.86
Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs

Till, when he reached the setting place of the sun) where the sun sets, (he found it setting in a muddy spring) a blackened, muddy and stinking spring; it is also said that this means: a hot spring, (and found a people thereabout) these people were disbelievers: (We said: O Dhu'l-Qarnayn!) We inspired him (Either punish) either kill them until they accept to believe that there is no deity except Allah (or show them kindness) or you pardon them and let them be.


Mohammed is reported to have said the sun sets in a spring of warm water because Allah told him so.

But Allah was wrong, the sun sets nowhere, it is an illusion, which should be stated in the Quran to make this clear; by saying the sun sets in a spring/murky water the Quran proves it does not come from an omncient being, but from the imagination of men who didn't know any better.

Sunan Abu Dawud : Dar-us-Salam reference / Hadith 4002
Narrated Abu Dharr:

I was sitting behind the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets ? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water (Hamiyah).

Indexes

Dar-us-Salam reference Sunan Abu Dawud Hadith 4002
Ahmad Hasan translation Hadith 3991