the seat of thought and intention

Prove Islam is from God, why it is the 'One True Religion'.
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manfred
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Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by manfred »

What contradictions? I asked you some questions, go ahead and answer and you will see.
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Eagle
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Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by Eagle »

The 2 "bodies" are the top of page 3.

Rethorical questions were asked while assuming a contradiction. So where are those nonexistent errors

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manfred
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Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by manfred »

Sum is waiting to learn about these two bodies of yours, most eagerly. Please post a photo of both of you.

Who mentioned "errors"?

I just asked you this:
And the Qur'anic creation story "matches" science...? How many days did it take, eagle? What was Adam made of? Why does the the Qur'an disagree with itself on these points, and what does that suggest about its reliability as a scientific document?
... or for that matter, a divinely authored text?

Why are you so shy to answer? Isn't the Qur'an clear enough, perhaps?
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Eagle
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Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by Eagle »

Again, a rethorical question assuming there is an error. Point the error.

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manfred
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Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by manfred »

It is not a rhetorical question, eagle, it is a very simple factual one. How many days did it take? the answer is a number.
What was Adam made from? Mention a substance. Go on, are you ashamed of the Qur'an?
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sum
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Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by sum »

Hello Eagle

I am still waiting for you to clarify the "two bodies".

What I am about to ask might go across this thread at a tangent but it relates to Adam and Eve.

If Adam and Eve were the first of mankind then there must have been no evolutionary process to bring them up to a presumed modern physical state. Do you believe that any evolution of mankind followed Adam and Eve or that there was never any evolution of mankind?

sum

Eagle
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Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by Eagle »

Of course Adam is the product of evolution and the Quran explicitly states it. He was not the first human being, but the first one endowed with moral discernment, intentionally by his Creator (while in the biblical version humanity was supposed to remain ignorant of moral discernment). As to the 2 bodies, the answer is on top of page 3.

Eagle
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Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by Eagle »

@manfred

The question is rethorical because it ia followed by an assumption that the answer to it is erroneous. Once this is established, we can move on to the Quranic passages speaking of mankind's evolution from dust.

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manfred
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Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by manfred »

mankind evolved from dust?

And I make no assumptions at all about your answer. I first listen to you then I may or may not have a comment to make.
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Eagle
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Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by Eagle »

Sure, from dust.

It isnt against my answers that baseless asumptions were made, but in regards to the Quran to which the rethorical questions were asked. The one who wants to know asks first, waits for the answer and then follows up with objections

sum
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Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by sum »

Hello Eagle

Thank you for your reply.

How long ago is it that Adam and Eve appeared?

Does the Kora explicitly state that there was actual evolution or are you just guessing?

sum

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manfred
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Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by manfred »

Eagle wrote:Sure, from dust.
OK... let's see if the Qur'an agrees.

96: 1 - 2 reads as:

Proclaim, in the name of thy Lord, Who created -- created man from `alaq. (“blood clot”, or “sticky mess”. Meaning not properly known)
21: 30 reads as:

We made all living things from water.
24: 45 reads as:

And Allah created all living things from water
25: 54 reads as:

It is He, Who created man from water.
15: 26 reads as:

And We created man from sounding (extremely dry) clay of black stinking mud.
3: 59 reads as:

[The creation of] Jesus, in the sight of Allah, is like [that of] Adam. He created him from dust and then said to him 'Be' and he was.
30: 20 reads as:

And among His signs is that He created you from dust
35: 11 reads as:

And Allah created you from dust
19: 67 reads as:

Does man not take heed [from the fact] that We created him [while] before that he was nothing?
52: 35 reads as:

Were they created out of nothing? Or were they themselves their own creators?
11: 61 reads as:

It was He who raised you up from the earth and gave you means to dwell upon it
16: 4 reads as:

He created man from a drop [of semen].
75: 37 reads as:

Was he not a drop of ejaculated semen?


Conclusion... Success, Eagle... The Qur'an does agree that man was created from dust. But.... But .... :shock: Allah seems to have Alzheimer's as he changes his story over and over....

Another problem, eagle.... where is this idea of an EVOLUTION from dust come from? Allah seems to also have forgotten to mention that... are you helping him out again?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Eagle
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Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by Eagle »

@sum

Yes i believe the Quran explicitly states so.

Although Adam is generally taken to be the first man, nowhere does the Quran say so, or that there were no creations before him. It only says he was the first human entrusted to be a vicegerent on Earth. In fact when citing names and lineages in the history of mankind that were chosen for prophethood above other nations, Adam is included in the list 3:33.

When the Quran speaks of the creation of the human race, it speaks of a gradual process originating with an extract/sulala of non-organic, earthly elements 15:26,23:12,37:11,55:14 and water 21:30,24:45,25:54 fashionned and formed 40:64,64:3 before man was made complete
87:2"Who creates, then makes complete"
and assigned his role of vicegerency
20:55,22:5,7:11"And certainly We created you, then We fashioned you, then We said to the angels: Prostrate to Adam".
This verse does not negate the possibility that the whole human race began with a combination of basic elements, evolved into living entities capable to reproduce until one being (Adam) was fully, physically completed and ready to receive God's spirit to become the first vicegerent
40:67-8,35:11,32:7-9"and He began the creation of man from dust. Then He made his progeny of an extract of water held in light estimation. Then He made him complete and breathed into him of His spirit. And made for you the ears and the eyes and the hearts; little is it that you give thanks".
This verse literally says the progeny of an entity that originated from clay spread through some "lowly fluid" i.e. the sperm before it was made complete then filled with God's spirit. A period therefore existed when an "incomplete" species reproduced through the sperm-drop before it developped physically into a fully, complete human being i.e. Adam who then received the spirit from God, as in
38:71-2"When your Lord said to the angels; Surely I am going to create a mortal from dust: So when I have made him complete and breathed into him of My spirit, then fall down making obeisance to him".
It isnt difficult to imagine that almost simultaneouly or very shortly after, other humans might have been likewise completed both physically and spiritually in order to reproduce among themselves as a new species. In fact we read elsewhere that Adam's mate (Eve) already existed when Adam was completed and received God's spirit 2:35 however her completion with God's spirit occured after Adam as denoted in the previous verse 2:34.

The verses 4:1,6:98,7:189 explain what occured after lifeless basic elements were combined together at the beginning of creation
"Be conscious of your Sustainer, who has created you out of one self/nafsin waahida, and out of her created zawjaha/her complementary part, and out of the two spread abroad a multitude of men and women".
Nafs is broadly used for a living entity, because of its root NFS meaning "to breath". This obviously cannot be endorsing the Biblical account of creation, with the male being the first human created and his female counterpart developing out of him (his rib) since it says that the complementary part of the nafs developed out of "her". The verse addresses the issue of the gradual formation of the human specie. In the beginning there was one NFS/breathing ie living entity, out of which a complementary part developped. Their interraction produced new entities that became capable of reproducing through the sperm-drop -as stated in the previous verses about man originating from dust, then from the sperm-. These sexually reproductive entities are human males and females.

As stated in a previous post, In 71:17-8 the Quran parallels the growth of man out of the earth like a plant does, in a context of providing reasonable proof for the Resurrection for just as he was originally raised from dust into an elaborate and wonderful creation, so to will he be brought back to life to face his reckoning. As said in 38:71-2, Allah announces to the angels that He will create a mortal, and that when this mortal becomes complete with the spirit from God, to prostrate before him. The last step of human evolution is thus linked in the Quran not only to its physical completion but also to mankind having being filled with a spirit to become God's vicegerent 2:30. Man has both a principal and a secondary nature. His secondary nature returns to dust and his essence is related to Allah. This is why the Quran attributes the spirit to Allah and the body to the earth 38:71-72 and it is this spirit coming from Allah and breathed into Adam for the first time, inspiring him the understanding of good and evil that creates the human thirst for guidance and worship, fulfilling the goal for which man was created; the worship of God. A similar notion can be found in the
Hebrew Bible in Ecc12:7"The body reverts to the dust that it was before, and the ru'ah returns to God who gave it".

sum
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Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by sum »

Hello Eagle

Your quote -
This verse does not negate the possibility that the whole human race began with a combination of basic elements, evolved into living entities capable to reproduce until one being (Adam) was fully, physically completed and ready to receive God's spirit to become the first vicegerent

This is a big jump from basic elements to a fully formed man. Do you accept the current views on evolution where man went through progressive physical stages to reach what he is today?

How long ago was it when Adam came into existence?

sum

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manfred
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Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by manfred »

This verse does not negate the possibility that the whole human race began with a combination of basic elements, evolved into living entities capable to reproduce until one being (Adam) was fully, physically completed and ready to receive God's spirit to become the first vicegerent
Dust may be a combination of basic elements, but not all combinations of basic elements are dust. Therefore there is no equivalence. This is the same logical fallacy as saying, "it has 4 right angles, so it is a square." A square does have four right angles, but so does a rectangle, and many other shapes.

And it is similarly a logical fallacy to draw conclusions from something that is NOT said. The verse also does not say that Allah eats chicken soup for lunch every Monday. Does that prove he does?

In fact the verse is plain and simple. You said Allah created Adam from dust. This idea, taken as a historical fact, does not square with scientific knowledge.

The qur'an never mentions any "evolution", and dust is dust. Broaden the definition of "dust" to "a combination of elements" is just a way to lie to yourself.
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Eagle
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Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by Eagle »

It doesnt only say dust/turab, but also clay and sticky mud, also water. Obviously the absence of organic life entails it originated from inorganic compounds. The Quran speaks of a process, fashioning and forming, reproduction, then filling with the spirit from God.
Last edited by Eagle on Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:36 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Eagle
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Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by Eagle »

@sum

The Quran doesnt give a timeframe for Adam's creation, but does speak of a process that led to his completion. The verses read as a whole certainly give credence to "a" theory of evolution, not necessarily the one currently generally accepted and which is in constant review.

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manfred
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Re: the seat of thought and intention

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Eagle wrote:It doesnt only say dust/turab, but also clay and sticky mud, also water. Obviously the absence of organic life entails it originated from inorganic compounds. The Quran speaks of a process, fashioning and forming, reproduction, then filling with the spirit from God.
Eagle sometimes you are very funny...

Yes indeed, the Qur'an says Adam is made from clay, sticky mud and water, but all in different verse. There is no cooking recipe for making people in the Qur'an, only confusion as to what man is made from.

Mohammed heard "ashes to ashes, dust to dust", and concluded that Adam is made from dust, on another occasion he was exposed to bits from Genesis, which is the source of the "mud" thing, (it actually says clay)

We are also told that man is made from water, from sperm and a sort of blood clot.

And here is the thing.... NOTHING suggests that any of these "ingredients" are combined somehow. In fact the opposite is the case: each time the Qur'an says what man is made from it makes an exclusive comment, excluding all the others.

This becomes particularly clear when the Qur'an claims man is created from NOTHING. This EXCLUDES, obviously all the other things the Qur'an also mentioned.

And the process the Qur'an speaks of is that Allah physically made a man-like thing and then breathed live into it. It re-tells, poorly, the Genesis story, but as if this was some sequence of historical events.

This is not evolution, and to "find" anything scientific in this is laughable.

And you are doing it again: broadening definitions to make things fit. Evolution is a process. The creation described in the Qur'an is a process. Therefore the Qur'an speaks of evolution. That is just plain silly.


I might as well say, the Qur'an speaks of messages. My phone delivers messages. Therefore, oh miracle of miracles, Allah mentions the smart phone in the Qur'an.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Eagle
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Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by Eagle »

Sure, man like everything else in the universe came from nothing. This doesnt mean life cannot be formed out of nothingness, or that both assertions are mutually exclusive. Nothingness was at the start, then followed a process, that involves the creation of the non-organic compounds. Also, all languages inherently accept exceptions unless the statement is clearly absolute, or that no other statements from the same source exist to allow the exlusion. The Quran speaks in several places of different non organic compounds at mankind's origins and in none of these verses does it make at absolute assertion. A verse was pointed, speaking of a process that preceded the filling with the spirit from God, including fashioning and forming, then reproduction.

The Quran does not endorse any specific theory of evolution, but agrees with all of them in that there was a process that led to the completion of the human race.

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manfred
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Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by manfred »

Eagle you are correcting the Qur'an again.

The Qur'an variously tells us contradictory things out of which man is created.

And you "explanation" is at best comical...

So, eagle,

when I make a sandwich, I start with NOTHING, then I get the bread, the cheese, the tomato, petter, salt....

Did I make the sandwich out of NOTHING?
The Quran does not endorse any specific theory of evolution, but agrees with all of them in that there was a process that led to the completion of the human race.
The Qur'an demands that you accept that "Allah" made a man called "man", out of a variety of things, each exclusively, and also out of nothing... and the universe was created in a stretchable number of days, either six or eight, depending where in the Qur'an you look.

And of course, with mountains as pegs.... and a pool for the sun to set in....

All very scientific that is....
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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