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Re: the seat of thought and intention

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:12 pm
by Eagle
Religion and spirituality are 2 different things, some religions are incompatible with man's inborn spirituality and corrupt it. Other religions provide the right tools to nurture and develop it.

Re: the seat of thought and intention

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:46 pm
by frankie
Eagle wrote:Religion and spirituality are 2 different things, some religions are incompatible with man's inborn spirituality and corrupt it. Other religions provide the right tools to nurture and develop it.


Eagle

Why is the message of Jesus different than the message of Mohammed when both are said to speak in the name of the same God?

Re: the seat of thought and intention

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:26 pm
by sum
Hello Eagle

You say that man has an inborn spirituality.

Please explain what this spirituality actually is as you also say that some religions are incompatible with it but others are compatible.

It appears that you are claiming that religion can affect inborn spirituality.

Does Christianity affect inborn spirituality in a good and positive way?

sum

Re: the seat of thought and intention

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:47 pm
by skynightblaze
Ok finally we see some process mentioned in quran as you claim (the link you gave) but again the mentioned process is not hinting evolution at all. Its incorrect process to be precise because human being was many things (living creatures) before it became the human being that we see today. Quran skips the mention of any stage that was living but not a man. I dont expect the exact stages but simply saying that man evolved from other living things would be sufficient. Quran fails to mention that.

Anyway lets see the verses you quoted to make a point that quran talks about combination of elements and process..

Eagle wrote:87:2"Who creates, then makes complete"


This proves nothing. The makes complete could also mean that a child grows into a man. This is an observable phenomenon so no brownie points here.

Eagle wrote:20:55,22:5,7:11"And certainly We created you, then We fashioned you, then We said to the angels: Prostrate to Adam".
This verse does not negate the possibility that the whole human race began with a combination of basic elements, evolved into living entities capable to reproduce until one being (Adam) was fully, physically completed and ready to receive God's spirit to become the first vicegerent


We are not buying anything unless quran actually said those words. QUran also did not give any punishment for rape. This doesn't negate the possibility of quran allowing rape. Should we go ahead and claim quran as immoral as it allows rape? If your answer is no then you should stop making such arguments. So show me again the actual verse from quran which speaks about combination.

Eagle wrote:40:67-8,35:11,32:7-9"and He began the creation of man from dust. Then He made his progeny of an extract of water held in light estimation. Then He made him complete and breathed into him of His spirit. And made for you the ears and the eyes and the hearts; little is it that you give thanks".
This verse literally says the progeny of an entity that originated from clay spread through some "lowly fluid" i.e. the sperm before it was made complete then filled with God's spirit. A period therefore existed when an "incomplete" species reproduced through the sperm-drop before it developped physically into a fully, complete human being i.e. Adam who then received the spirit from God, as in


Here is what 40 :67 says
Sahih International
It is He who created you from dust, then from a sperm-drop, then from a clinging clot; then He brings you out as a child;

35:11 reaffirms 40:67.
So yes there seems a process. It says we created from dust and then sperm and then clinging clot. Note the sequence mentioned here.
Now lets see other verses..

32:7
Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.

32:8
Then He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.

40:67 says Allah created human from dust and now here in 32:7 it says Allah began creation from clay and then sperm.
please answer the following questions:

1) where did creation start from? dust first ? clay first ? .
2)Also what about water that is mentioned in other verses such as 24:45 ? There is no mention of water anywhere in the sequence in these verses (32:7 and 35:11)
3)Now if clay was the starting point as mentioned in 32:7 then according to quran mud came later into picture. So human being was first clay and then became mud somewhere in the process? Which scientific study suggests this sequence?

Further to your post on that link..
You then quote 38:71-2 which again talks about human being created from dust. After that you quote 4:1,6:98,7:189 which again do not explain anything about combination. All it says female counter part being created from the first human and nothing else.

So you have answered partly. Yes the quran seems to be describing a process but that's incorrect as the sequence does not become clear (infact it becomes confusing), it also fails to mention that human being evolved from other living beings. Also ,no verse talks about mixing/combination of earthly elements as you keep repeating.

I will answer rest when i get time.

Re: the seat of thought and intention

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:55 pm
by Eagle
@sum

The short answer was given there viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18238&start=80#p239193 Here are more detailed explanation

Man in the Quran is not a spiritualy static, stagnant entity. There is in him a mechanism, a driving force that creates a flux. It is al nafs allawwama/the self-reproaching soul 75:2 which much be nurtured and trained to confront the moral obstacles in one's life. The more it is trained the more it morphs into a positive state called al nafs al mutmainna 89:27 and the more it is neglected the more it changes into al nafs al'ammara bil sou'/the soul that incites to evil 12:53. One has therefore to train and purify his spiritual side just as he would train and strengthen his physical body, and make it rise to the noblest spiritual station. In sura maarij for example, it speaks of man's tendancy to be hasty and of impatient disposition, somewhere else referred to as an ingrained weakness of human nature 4:28. This is the manifestation of man's animalistic side, seeking immidiate satisfaction of base desires regardless of the consequences, but then gives the instructions on how that tendency can be tamed, starting with regular prayer, then a commitment towards fellow humans in need, hearkening one's sense of moral accountability (the self-reproaching soul), understanding God's threat of chastisement and never feeling secure or self-conceited in the matter, maintaining all that is connected to sexuality inside specific boundaries, being trustworthy and act upon one's word 70:18-35.

The objective of human creation is spiritual purification through divine worship, which will ultimately earn it an eternal bliss and reward. Reward is thus the true reason for which God has made mankind. It is a great mercy, and besides that ultimate reward, God's mercy manifests itself in this world in innumerable aspects both inside and outside of man.

Inwardly, it is man's ability to perceive the existence of a single Creator 7:172-3 referred to in 30:30 as man's hardwired uprightness at birth. Any notion that goes against that inborn tendancy (trinity, monolatry, polytheism, idols, elephants and other creations etc) is therefore a corruption of man's spiritual nature. In case of the revealed religions however, the Quran makes a clear distinction, especially in the case of Christianity, that besides their few well known corrupt notions, they overall have a positive impact on the spirit
"and We sent Isa son of Mary afterwards, and We gave him the Injeel, and We put in the hearts of those who followed him kindness and mercy"


That spiritual fabric, combined with the spiritual senses of perception 23:78,46:26,67:23,76:2 create an understanding of what is good and bad for the soul and helps hearkening the calls of the self-reproaching soul in place of the evil-inciting conscience whenever a moral crisis arises. It is with that implicit notion that the Quran in many places refers to the commendable deeds with the general term maaruf/recognized,accepted and to the evil deeds as munkar/rejected.

The more the calls of the self-reproaching soul are hearkened and acted upon in place of the evil-inciting conscience, the more the soul is purified until it reaches a status referred to in 89:27 as al nafs al mutma'inna/the secure, peaceful soul. It is to be noted that this stage is something one can never permanently achieve in this life, one is constantly switching between these 3 states even though some spend more time in one state than the other depending on their spirituality, which is why God only addresses the righteous with this term once all matters are settled in the afterlife and the successfull are invited to enter their eternal blissful state. In consistency with that principle, the Quran in sura ghaashiya/88 pictures the successful as having an apeased and content face only in the hereafter while utter humility will be all over the face of the doomed. These 2 states are generally reversed in this life.
The opposite can also happen until one's spirituality becomes incapable of making the right moral choices and is sealed despite having been given the ability to perceive the right from the wrong
76:3,90:8-10,91:7-10"And (by) a soul and He Who proportioned it. And inspired it with its wickedness and its virtue. One has succeeded whoever purified it. And one has failed whoever corrupted it".
As a side note, this concept entirely agrees with the one described in the Hebrew Bible according to which mankind has a proclivity to sin but can overcome it, as exemplified through the story of Cain and Abel in Genesis.

Outwardly, divine mercy manifests itself through revelations, that make a clear distinction between the right and wrong ways 2:38,16:9,92:12 and that direct mankind's spiritual senses of perception towards the innumerable signs attesting to the existence of God, the hereafter, a day of judgement and accountability. As it states in sura insan, immidiately after speaking of God's innate guidance, man is also actively guided with external factors
76:2-3"We made him a being indowed with hearing and sight, verily We have shown him the way (and it rests with him to prove himself) either grateful or ungrateful".


All this inward and outward arrangement is because man has been assigned the role of God's vicegerent in this world 2:30, meaning this world has been entrusted to him to make use of it in God-consiousness, ie in respect of the commands and limits set by the True Owner
51:56"And I have not created the jinn and the men except that they should serve Me/yaabuduni".
The root is Ain-B-D and it means slave or servant. Being a 'abd/slave of God is what each pious Muslim strives for and previous prophets all throughout the Hebrew Bible were refered to as God servants, including Moses or David. God Himself calls them
Jer29:19,2Kings17:13"My servants, the prophets".

Any regular person who is pious and humble before God, considers himself a slave to the Almighty, and this notion isnt specific to Islam or the Quran, see the Hebrew Bible in 1Sam1:11,3:9-10,23:10,2Sam3:18,7:20. As the prophet king Solomon is reported to have stated in his last words with which he concludes his book of
Ecclesiastes12:13-14"Fear God and keep His commandments for this is the whole purpose of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil".
The whole purpose of man is therefore to remain in fear of God, His judgement, and keep His entire commands which obviously is synonimous with worshiping Him with awe.
aAABUDA, the form of ain-b-d used in 51:56, is the action of making oneself slave. Conceptually, the term of "making oneself a slave" suggests becoming a slave voluntarily to an entity and that is the term used for worship since the main way for a person to make himself or herself a slave of an entity voluntarily is through love of that entity and through being in awe of that entity. That reality is captured in the opening sura, sura fatiha which expresses the believer's yearning to making himself God's slave. God's relationship with His slave isnt that of a cruel master, but that of a compassionate, forgiving, sustaining, and merciful one 39:53. He is al rahman and al rahim, as stated in sura fatiha where the person seeks servitude of the rahman and rahim, 2 words comprehensively containing all aspects of caring and goodness.

Ibada isnt simply the performance of religious rituals, which is implied through the english rendering "worship", but it denotes an unceasing mindframe in every deed
6:162"Say. Surely my prayer and my sacrifice and my life and my death are (all) for Allah, the Lord of the worlds".
In 22:77 the ritual acts of ‘bowing’ and ‘prostration’ are mentioned beside the word a‘budu/worship, further indicating that the word encompasses a larger scope than the ritual aspect. Ibada is basically a way of life, the acceptance that in our relationship with God, we are the lowest and He is the Highest, and one way in which it is commanded to be manifested, outside the servitude to God through ritual worship, is the servitude to the humans through acts of empathy and compassion. The Quran delves in great lengths upon that concept, placing it in some cases, ie benevolence towards fellow humans, as of equal importance as ritual worship. So important it is in fact that when defining Himself as the rahman/the most merciful, Allah places that characteristic as being the chief evidence by which His humble servants are recognizable in this world 25:60-77. That concept embeded in the word, that ibada isnt merely ritual worship, but rather something that covers it as well as other intricacies, is reflected in God's instructions to Moses as he was about to be imparted divine wisdom, prophecy, miracles
20:14"Surely I am Allah, there is no god but I, therefore aAAbudni/enslave yourself to me, and keep up prayer for My remembrance.."

Ibada is such a high level of God-awareness, submissiveness and humility that it must be exclusively aimed at Allah, the true Sustainer to whom one owes everything or it will lead to destruction, on the day of judgement those who submitted to anything other than Allah, those guilty for selling their mind and soul to the shaytan will be addressed
36:60"Did I not charge you, O children of Adam ! that you should not serve ('ibadah) the Shaitan? Surely he is your open enemy. And that you should serve ('ibadah) Me; this is the right way".
So the rendition of "worship" doesnt capture the entire dimension of the word. Making oneself a slave is a timeless and unlimited condition, while worship is restricted in time. Finally, in order to further understand the intensity of the relation between Allah and a willful servant of His, the verb aliha coming from ilah is the term used to describe the most intense level of love for an entity.

Man was therefore, along with all of creation, perfectly made for the functions intended for him 27:88 and the way, whether physical or spiritual, has been 80:20"eased" for him through all the means put at his disposal. He has been made 87:2,82:6-9"complete" and 95:4"in the best make" to fulfill the measure decreed for each person 54:49,87:3 meaning that none can be held responsible for what is beyond his mental, physical or spiritual capacities but when man fails fulfilling his role of vicegerency according to his capacities to recognize the self evident higher realities of the universe leading to a day of accountability, he is said to have 80:23"not done what He bade him". In short whether it is the spiritual aspect of life or material, the Almighty eased out the way for man in order that the needs of both sides of his being be satisfied. If he treads that path in order to satisfy his spiritual and physical needs, he will never stumble; however, by wrongly using his free-will when he adopts the wrong path to answer his needs and desires, he is doomed.

Although God could forcefully make the good tendency overcome the evil one and thus erase all reasons for the spiritual dissensions among the humans 42:8, making man entirely rooted in his instincts ("in their places"), devoid of all urge to advance, and incapable either of positive development or of retreat from a wrong course 36:67, He has decreed in accordance with divine justice, the concept of accountability on a day of resurrection, and the principle of no compulsion in religion 2:256,18:29 that we must maintain and nurture it ourselves through tazkiya 87:14,91:7-10. The word stems from z-k-w, used concretely for a plant that matures well and bears fruit. It is metaphorically used for all religious directives, particularily charity/zakat, as they help one to grow spiritualy and bear fruit in the hereafter. Tazkiya is a process ultimately beneficial for one'self 35:18, manifesting itself in the above spoken notion of servitude to God. There is a reason the Quran constantly lays stress on God's transcendental oneness and uniqueness; the acceptance of that concept frees man from all sense of dependence on other influences and powers, and thus elevates him spiritually and brings about that tazkiya/purification, for Allah alone is the way to achieve that goal 4:49. Because shirk with God/ascribing an equal or superior authority to anything besides Him, compromises that objective, the Quran describes it as the only unforgivable sin if left unrepented for until the signs of death, anything other than that may or may not be forgiven by God if left unrepented for, according to God's knowledge, justice, mercy 4:48,116,25:68-71,39:53-55.

One's spirituality can therefore either develop or deteriorate 2:10,48:4 consequently to our willful choices. In fact Heaven, the final abode of the righteous in the hereafter is described as
20:76"the reward of him who has purified himself".

Positively, this process manifests itself practically by recognizing His signs accessible to intellecual insight 12:108 and present all around, as well as inside of man. This reality is pointed to through the statements almost always coming at the end of verses pointing to those signs
"..so that they might use their reason, they might think...".
The dwellers of hell, those who would have lost all good share in the life to come are described as expressing two essential regrets for having failed making the right spiritual choices, either they refused listening to the clear guidance being explained to them or did not use their reason to reflect on the higher reality
67:10-11"And they shall say: Had we but listened or pondered, we should not have been among the inmates of the burning fire. So they shall acknowledge their sins".

Positive spiritual development also consists in accepting God's guidance and living according to His commands
87:14-5"He indeed shall be successful who purifies himself, and remembers the name of his Lord and prays".
These commands establishing a code of life are made in a way so as to not overburden our spirituality and thus intensifying our inherent weaknesses as humans, but rather help us in developping our spirituality smoothly towards purity and inner-peace
4:28,13:28"surely by Allah's remembrance are the hearts set at rest".
And such commands, if undertaken with the correct spiritual and mental mindframe, facilitate one's spiritual progression towards the ultimate good of the hereafter 92:4-7. As reflected in the
Psalms119:9"In what manner should a youth purify his way? To observe according to Your word".
Only that guidance and its regular, consistant implementation in life will help us channel our natural inner restlessness and hastiness that would otherwise incline us to failure wenever a moral crisis arises 17:11,21:37,70:19-35. These often described states of inner spiritual weakness are only a natural outcome of an original, untrained spiritual state just as a newborn is physically weak. Only the appropriate training, spiritual or physical can make one overcome the obstacles, abstract or concrete, that come our way. Impatience in itself is not something condemnable, it is even praised when occuring in the context of eagerness to do good 2:133,5:48,etc. God has therefore given man the ability to tilt the balance of spirituality in opposite ways.

Negatively, this process manifests itself practically by turning deaf, dumb and blind to His signs and rejecting His guidance, in total heedlessness and ingratitude to our God-given spiritual receptivity
32:7-9,64:2"He it is Who created you, but one of you is an unbeliever and another of you is a believer; and Allah sees what you do".
The upringing environement is crucial in determining one's spiritual choices and if it is corrupted beyond limits it makes it much harder to positively express our ingrained spiritual cognition. God points how the Queen of Sheba's disbelief was due to her upringing in a corrupted environement, which was not exposed to her and reversed until she was shown spiritual uprightness through the prophet Solomon's example 27:43. It is to avoid this that Nuh prayed God not to leave any of his people alive, once they reached the climax in disbelief and their punishment for which they were warned was decreed, so as to avoid them corrupting and conditionning further generations who would not be able to hearken their ingrained God-consciousness by themselves, unless expressedly shown the way 71:26-7.

Some of us therefore recognize the Creator and others disbelieve in Him and His signs, present everywhere outside and inside of man, despite our ingrained spirituality 2:115,12:105,31:20,41:53,64:2, becoming from those whom the verse 30:30's ending refers to as those who "do not know" due to the corruption instead of nurturing of that upright nature beyond recognition. That is why the Quran refers to itself as the "reminder" and constantly speaks of it making men "return". It is bringing them back to their original, natural uprightness and this is why it calls those who reject the natural truth brought by the prophets as being unjust to their own soul.

That man is given freewill in matters of religion is again made clear in 22:18 speaking of the obedience of the entire universe whether willingly or unwillingly, since it was first created and will remain so during the process of destruction and resurrection 41:11,84:2. That is in constrast to mankind out of whom "many" but not all submit to God hence their ultimate chastisement in the next world where they will have to answer for the use of what only them among all of creation mentionned precedingly have been endowed with, freewill in matters of moral and spiritual choices "and many of the people; and many there are against whom chastisement has become necessary".
The Quran states how the unbeliever shall lament and find many excuses on the Day of Judgement, among them
39:57"Had Allah guided me, I would certainly have been of those who guard (against evil)"
but Allah will once again confirm that His guidance is contingent on free, willful acceptance 2:256,18:29 ie He does not compel anyone to believe or disbelieve
39:59"My communications came to you, but you rejected them, and you were proud and you were one of the unbelievers".


Man's innate guidance therefore needs constant nurturing through willful obedience to the divine code of life, and this includes worship and regular remembrence of God
2:153,29:45"Recite that which has been revealed to you of the Book and keep up prayer; surely prayer keeps (one) away from indecency and evil, and certainly the remembrance of Allah is the greatest"
or it will deviate, lose its balance 29:38. This is why special importance has been given to the regular, obligatory daily prayers. 70:22-34 describes the merits and character of those who have been declared as worthy of Paradise, starting with the Prayer and concluding with it.

People are indiscriminately entitled and encouraged to seek and enjoy wordly benefits, but within the context God has laid out for them 2:168,172-177. The creation of the universe is a natural consequence of God's mercy and by declaring that the higher reason for mankind and jinns' creation is divine worship and spiritual betterment 51:56,91:7-11 Allah further stresses how merciful He is in particular to the only 2 creatures endowed with freewill. Spiritual betterment and purification are the conditions of success in the Hereafter 87:14-17 and God's revelations through His prophets precisely are meant to help achieve that goal
2:151,3:164,62:2"a Messenger from among themselves, to convey unto them His messages, and to cause them to grow in purity, and to impart unto them the divine writ as well as wisdom".
Here it is to be noted how one of the recognizable patterns of the prophets is that they do not merely recite the revelations but apply themselves mostly in purifying and reforming the lives of the people, cleansing their morals and dealings of every evil element, and adorning them with the finest moral qualities. In the HB its states in
Prov13:17"A wicked messenger falls into evil, but a faithful emissary brings healing".
Rabbinical writings suggest that the second part of the verse is in reference to Moses, providing healing and purification through the revelation imparted to him.
Such purification makes them in turn see, using their reason, the higher realities of the numerous signs that the Quran constantly brings to mankind's attention, that are inside and outside of man. As he starts recognizing these signs due to his increased spiritual awareness
40:13"He it is Who shows you His signs and sends down for you sustenance from heaven, and none minds but he who turns (to Him) again and again"
man is naturally guided to the ways of ascent put at his disposal 70:3 raising himself above the mere material form of his existence that in itself does not earn him achievement in the hereafter, ie man's qualifications for Paradise are created not on the basis of the substance of his creation but only on the basis of his merit and excellence
70:38-9"Does every man of them desire that he should be made to enter the garden of bliss? By no means! Surely We have created them of what they know" 53:32"He knows you best when He brings you forth from the earth and when you are embryos in the wombs of your mothers; therefore do not attribute purity to your souls; He knows him best who guards (against evil)".

Re: the seat of thought and intention

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:12 am
by manfred
So, in a nutshell, Islamic "spirituality" is about fear and about avoiding punishment. It is about collecting brownie points...
A Muslim trades with Allah.... I do this or that, I fast in Ramadan, stick my arse in the air 5 times a day, kiss some rocks in a hijacked Hindu temple, and a pile of other daft things, and I get to stay in a celestial whore house.... (don't forget to use the correct foot to enter the toilet...)

And non-Muslims are made as toys to be tortured in hell, and to be exploited by Muslims...

That is what "spirituality" means to Muslims... of course the hight of spiritual achievement is jihad... kill some unbelievers and if you die doing that, the whore house is your instant home....

Re: the seat of thought and intention

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:28 pm
by sum
Hello Eagle

Thank you for your reply but you still have not explained the difference, in detail, between the Christian spirituality and the Islamic spirituality. Can you give me some examples of where the spirituality of Christianity differs from that of Islamic spirituality?

Your quote -
Any notion that goes against that inborn tendancy (trinity, monolatry, polytheism, idols, elephants and other creations etc) is therefore a corruption of man's spiritual nature.

I would suggest that the inborn tendency is the Golden Rule but Islam teaches against this. Is this not a corruption of the inborn tendency and spiritual nature?

sum

Re: the seat of thought and intention

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:23 pm
by skynightblaze
Before I start answering the remaining arguments, I have couple of points regarding my previous post:

1. You need to show me where quran says that elements were combined. I need verses and not your words because we all know you have a great skill of putting words into quran's mouth.

2. I would like to correct one mistake of mine. I asked 3 questions. 1st question was clay or dust first? 3rd question was based on quranic verse which claims that Allah began with formation of clay first. This would seem that my 1st question was answered. However ,one verse says Allah started with clay first and other verses say that we created man out of dust which would mean dust was first. So either dust or either clay was first. If you claim dust was first then my 3rd question would be asking you to point out a scientific study which says dust came first and then man became clay or if you say clay was first then the 3rd question that I asked stays as it is.

skynightblaze wrote:3. In another verse, quran says he created man out of nothing. Nothing implies there was no prior state/process before creation of human being i.e He came out of thin air. Also no where does the quran say that initially there was nothing and then...... So dont try that line of argument..


Eagle wrote:Obviously the absence of organic life entails it originated from inorganic compounds, which were themselves created like every thing else in the universe that originated in nothingness 19:67. This is a particularity of the supreme Creator, initiating all things out of nothingness, He is 2:117"badeeu/Innovator and initiator of the heavens and the earth" meaning that in His case, contrary to all creative endeavours, He creates without any blueprint, preexisting inspiration, experience, simply through His word "and if HE decreed an order done, He only says be and it is". This is why God is the "best of creators".


But the verse says human being i.e. the final product of all processes came out of nothing. It does not say compounds from which man came from nothing. So if man came through a process, its plain wrong to suggest, he came out of nothing. Sorry to say but Allah is not all wise but all my intellectual superior to be precise.

skynightblaze wrote:This denies evolution and also contradicts other statements as well.The way its written is completely at odds with basic reasoning skills and scientific community as well unlike what you have been claiming. Merely repeating that its not at odds wont change the fact that it is at odds. Unless quran mentioned that these different ingredients were mixed together , basic reasoning skills would tell us that this is an internal contradiction.


Eagle wrote:All languages inherently accept exceptions unless the statement is clearly absolute, or that no other statements from the same source exist to allow the exlusion. The Quran speaks in several places of different non organic compounds at mankind's origins and in none of these verses does it make at absolute assertion.


So when quran says man was created from dust or clay ,it isn't an absolute assertion? Quran was telling us a joke then ?

skynightblaze wrote:Btw you talk about quran stimulating spirituality by these verses .I wonder what spirituality you find here with these verses.

Eagle wrote:...its spiritual aim, as is clear from the context, includes the humbling of mankind by pointing to the earthly elements and water at its origins, as well as providing an argument for the simplicity of the concept of resurrection.


So my question to you - Can we consider anything under the universe no matter how stupid it appears be a part of spirituality? Those verses are plain nonsense and anyone can see that the author is not capable of writing things clearly. He appears unsure and he attempts to describe a process with sequence which is obviously wrong. If i can figure out something to be insensible how can it be considered to be spiritual? The basic criteria for something to be spiritual is - it should not be obviously stupid.

Further you claim that this is an argument for concept of resurrection. So just because man was created from earthly elements, does it logically follow that resurrection must be true and Allah can do it? I think you are suggesting that the author of quran points out that Allah created human being from earthly elements and hence resurrecting the human again wont be a problem for him. If this is what you are suggesting then there are 2 problems here ( Ignore the below 2 points if you are not suggesting the above and just tell me how pointing to human origins would make a case for resurrection ):

1. There is no proof that Allah created human being from earthly elements (there are mere claims) and hence this cannot be used as an argument to claim that Allah can resurrect you.
2. Even if we assume that it was Allah who created human being from earthly elements it still wont follow that Allah can resurrect you. Many times, the manufacturer tell you that they cannot fix the existing item that has been damaged but they can surely produce a new one instead.So just because you can create something from scratch , it won't logically follow that you can bring back already existing human to life again.


skynightblaze wrote:Merely hijacking natural phenomenon which were already known and claiming that Allah is behind it does not cut the cake.

Eagle wrote:That is the first objection that wasnt expressed by others previously. The point of these verses isnt that "Allah is behind it". The point is what was quoted above.


I see problems with that. If Allah did not create these things then was the quran lying when it said Allah did this and Allah did that? The point about resurrection is illogical.

skynightblaze wrote:How can anyone think of spirituality without any proven evidence?

Eagle wrote:Spiritual deduction, like scientific deduction isnt always dependent on factual, physical evidence. Only animals need to see a thing physically in front of their eyes to accept its presence. But then, even some animals are capable of mental deductions based on perception, without actually seeing...
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18238&start=40#p239057


We can mentally deduct that these verses are written by an illiterate person who has no clue on how to write a book. Such things hence cannot be a part of spirituality.

Re: the seat of thought and intention

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:44 pm
by manfred
I am starting to think the reasons he is called eagle is because he swoops in from above, drops some unpleasant smelly things left over from his last meal, and then flies off again...

Re: the seat of thought and intention

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:53 pm
by Fernando
Harking back a bit, emotional feelings in the chest are due to dopamine, which is secreted in the brain.

Re: the seat of thought and intention

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:55 pm
by manfred
dopamin? Thank you, I think I got that wrong...

Re: the seat of thought and intention

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:35 am
by skynightblaze
I just want to make one point. Eagle uses the argument that quran is not a science book. We all agree with that but his intentions are to buy some leeway for unscientific statements made by the quran and its not a genuine argument. It is simply to make people go soft on the quran (ignore what it says) and not evaluate it in modern day light. We don't expect quran to talk science however when it attempts to go into that domain, it better tell us the right things. Quran did try to describe the stages of human development so it did go into the medical science domain so we need to evaluate in the light of medical science available to us.

Re: the seat of thought and intention

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:37 am
by manfred
The absurdity is to on one hand saying "it's no science book" but then also claim that issues around science are all accurate. It all hinges on the notion that what may not be that cannot be. So whenever there is some clanger in the Qur'an mentioned, Muslims in effect say that it is not the words, plain to see, that are wrong, but your understanding of them. It is OUR fault that we cannot see the "miracles"....

If I say "genesis is not a science book", I mean it's account of the creation is poetical, and an allegoric teaching story. In assuming it tells us anything at all about science we misunderstand the first thing about the text. It's like a wife demanding a divorce because she found a telephone book in the bedroom and she assumes it is a list of her husband's lovers. I have no problems with pointing out scientific muddles in the bible, and I happily accept them.

A Muslim, on the other hand simply cannot. To him/her the Qur'an is letterally written by an omniscient being, so it cannot have even the slightest error. When there are some and they get pointed out, they always say it is understood "wrongly", either at the level of grammar and language, or at a higher cognitive level. And when this is disputed, most get rude and evetually just leave.

And the way an argument works seems to be you just keep on saying the same thing over and over, and when people eventually had enough and leave the thread, the assume their "argument" has won.

Shame eagle has gone again, he alsways does this, he stays for a bit and then goes quiet. At least he is polite, and he tries hard to show people his point of view. The only thing is that he cannot leave a conested point to the judgement of the readers, and move the discussion on.

I am still curious at how he would perform his leap to Mohammed being the "holy spirit" of the bible, but he never told us...

Re: the seat of thought and intention

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:25 am
by Garudaman
manfred wrote:In your country that is the liver though....

lol, liver or heart, depend on the context, sakit hati -> hati = heart, kanker hati -> hati = liver.

manfred wrote:And the point I was raising is that at the time people really did think mental activity originates in the heart, and the Qur'an merely used that idea without questioning.

nope as long there's QS. 96:13-16 : viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18238#p238984

manfred wrote:Why "understanding heart"? Why not mind/head/brain?

because the sensation of intention is felt in chest/heart!

manfred wrote:Show me the bit where is says "from Cyrus's point of view" please.

QS. 18:86. Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it [as if] setting in a spring of dark mud, and he found near it a people. Allah said, "O Dhul-Qarnayn, either you punish [them] or else adopt among them [a way of] goodness."

manfred wrote:Also why would the Qur'an then speak of this place like a real place, with people living there?

no its not, unless present people also speak as the sun really set or rise, every time they say sunset or sunrise.

Re: the seat of thought and intention

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:05 pm
by frankie
Garudaman wrote:
manfred wrote:In your country that is the liver though....

lol, liver or heart, depend on the context, sakit hati -> hati = heart, kanker hati -> hati = liver.

manfred wrote:And the point I was raising is that at the time people really did think mental activity originates in the heart, and the Qur'an merely used that idea without questioning.

nope as long there's QS. 96:13-16 : viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18238#p238984

manfred wrote:Why "understanding heart"? Why not mind/head/brain?

because the sensation of intention is felt in chest/heart!

manfred wrote:Show me the bit where is says "from Cyrus's point of view" please.

QS. 18:86. Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it [as if] setting in a spring of dark mud, and he found near it a people. Allah said, "O Dhul-Qarnayn, either you punish [them] or else adopt among them [a way of] goodness."

manfred wrote:Also why would the Qur'an then speak of this place like a real place, with people living there?

no its not, unless present people also speak as the sun really set or rise, every time they say sunset or sunrise.



Garudaman

When people speak about the heart being involved with decision making they are referring to emotion, which is in turn directed from the brain.

The heart does not literally dictate what action a human must take, that is the function of the brain, the function of the heart is to pump oxygenated blood around the body, to keep the body alive.

The use of the word "heart" then in the Quran is proved to be metaphorical, not literal.


Also why would the Qur'an then speak of this place like a real place, with people living there?
no its not, unless present people also speak as the sun really set or rise, every time they say sunset or sunrise.

Isn't what the Quran says supposed to be eternal, or is that only when it interferes with your kind of logic??

Verse 18.86 speaks about an Islamic figure who reached the place where the sun sets where people lived, who Allah tells has the authority to "either punish or treat with kindness" depending on whether they accept Allah as the only god.

This is what your faith is all about, fighting people to bring them to accept Islam, but fighting people is not how true religion works,because the "enemy" in true religion is not human beings but SIN.

Your prophet got things wrong and used war against people, thereby putting you and all Muslims at war with non Muslims to this day.

War is not a spiritual virtue because it destroys lives literally AND metaphorically, the god of Islam is a god of war, and no God worthy of the name puts human beings at war with each other,because it would lead to the annihilation of his own creation.

Re: the seat of thought and intention

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:53 pm
by manfred
Hi garudaman,

yes I know when you say "sakit hati" you mean something very like "heart broken"...But "hati" is clearly not the heart but the liver. So "liver sick" is something you get, perhaps when you learn you girlfriend wants to marry someone else....

The point it while obviously people in Indonesia know that this is not really a process for the liver, they use it still because that is what their ancestors believed long ago. You also still shout "liver, liver!" to alert someone to danger... it's even on road signs: "hati hati"

Image

And then you mention this as proof that Cyrus the Great=Dhul-Qarnayn

QS. 18:86. Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it [as if] setting in a spring of dark mud, and he found near it a people. Allah said, "O Dhul-Qarnayn, either you punish [them] or else adopt among them [a way of] goodness."


Two things: a) there is not a shred of connection this verse draws to Cyrus the Great.
b) it does not have he "as if" in the actual text. It says, "He found it (i.e. the sun) setting in a pool of dark water.."

Re: the seat of thought and intention

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:45 am
by Garudaman
manfred wrote:Hi garudaman,

yes I know when you say "sakit hati" you mean something very like "heart broken"...But "hati" is clearly not the heart but the liver.

never heard "hatiku berdebar-debar"?

manfred wrote:So "liver sick" is something you get, perhaps when you learn you girlfriend wants to marry someone else....

no. its also called "patah hati" just as in english, lol.

manfred wrote:The point it while obviously people in Indonesia know that this is not really a process for the liver, they use it still because that is what their ancestors believed long ago. You also still shout "liver, liver!" to alert someone to danger... it's even on road signs: "hati hati"

Image

no, we use "hati/heart" both for "jantung/heart & perasaan/insting/feeling" and "hati/liver", & "hati-hati" = "feeling-feeling" (in sense of feels you & your surroundings)

manfred wrote:Two things: a) there is not a shred of connection this verse draws to Cyrus the Great.

didnt you read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the ... _the_Quran ?

manfred wrote:b) it does not have he "as if" in the actual text. It says, "He found it (i.e. the sun) setting in a pool of dark water.."

there's no need to, as from the point of view of human, the sun is indeed really literally looks sets on the ground, unless Dhul-Qarnayn traveling using spaceship.

Re: the seat of thought and intention

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:49 am
by manfred
no. its also called "patah hati" just as in english, lol.


Not really like English... "broken liver" makes no sense in English, so we translate it into the equivalent, "broken heart"...

And the "hati berdebar-debar" is an interesting mixture of metaphors... literally "liver pounding-pounding..." It is a Dutch influence... the "liver" is gradually transforming to "heart"...

We find a similar process in the West: to the Qur'an the heart was literally the seat of thought and reasoning, as well as emotion. When later it was discovered it was the brain, really, the "heart" concept was not thrown out all together, it became a sort of metaphor...

In Indonesia, the added complication was the Dutch influence, so we get the liver becoming a heart and eventually a mind.... hence the "liver sick" and "broken liver" expressions... they are stepping stones on the way.

As to Cyrus the Great, that is just a theory, and there are some problems with that too. For example, what iron gates his he buold, and where are they?

And the "setting place of the sun", the muddy pool, is a REAL place in the Qur'an, with people living there. Mohammed also said this, in a hadith.

Re: the seat of thought and intention

PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:07 am
by Garudaman
manfred wrote:
no. its also called "patah hati" just as in english, lol.

Not really like English... "broken liver" makes no sense in English, so we translate it into the equivalent, "broken heart"...

thats why hati is also heart, thus patah hati is broken heart.

manfred wrote:And the "hati berdebar-debar" is an interesting mixture of metaphors... literally "liver pounding-pounding..." It is a Dutch influence... the "liver" is gradually transforming to "heart"...

thats not metaphor, but literally meaning "heart pounding-pounding", & thats not Dutch but Java influence, in Java Language, "ati" mean heart or liver, loro atiku = hurt my heart, atiku deg-degan = my heart pounding, ati ayam = chicken liver.

manfred wrote:We find a similar process in the West: to the Qur'an the heart was literally the seat of thought and reasoning, as well as emotion. When later it was discovered it was the brain, really, the "heart" concept was not thrown out all together, it became a sort of metaphor...

thats wrong, that is not the seat of thought, but the sensation of thought : viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18238#p238984

manfred wrote:As to Cyrus the Great, that is just a theory, and there are some problems with that too. For example, what iron gates his he buold, and where are they?

thats not really a problem, just as where's the Ark of Convenant or Babel Tower.

manfred wrote:And the "setting place of the sun", the muddy pool, is a REAL place in the Qur'an, with people living there. Mohammed also said this, in a hadith.

thats not the setting place of the sun, but the place where the sun looks setting on there, some said/interpretate it as Black Sea, but its could be any pool, as any pool always looks muddy when exposed to the sunset light or any dim light.

Re: the seat of thought and intention

PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:46 am
by sum
Hello Garudaman

The Koran says quite clearly that the sun sets in a muddy pool. You talk about it being any pool but that is not the point, is it? Allah says that the sun sets in a muddy pool whereas mankind says that it does not.

Who is right - Allah or mankind?

Was Muhammad right when he said that the sun rests under Allah`s throne? Between Allah and Muhammad they both cocked it up didn`t they? Isn`t it strange that Allah did not correct Muhammad? Was Allah`s throne in the muddy pool? What are we to believe? Do we believe Muhammad or Allah, both of whom are totally wrong?

Please throw some light on this Islamic fiasco.

sum