the seat of thought and intention

Prove Islam is from God, why it is the 'One True Religion'.
User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by manfred »

Repetition helps an audience unable to process too much information at once.
If you are concerned about providing too much at once, keep it shorter.

It is a well-known and rather silly strategy for debate that some Muslims, and occasionally also others, employ: Repeat the same thing over and over and when people leave because they are fed up having to to reply to the same thing then they claim "victory".

It will not work here, as eventually copy posts get dumped.

If you have made you point on a topic, and had a reply, you should deal with the reply, and not simply recycle things you said before. And eventually there comes the point where you simply must leave what you said stand for itself.

Again, the Quran endorses "a" not "the" theory of evolution.
This is a meaningless comment. You might as well say making a cake supports "evolution", as it is a process. And as I have repeated pointed out, the idea that there is a process implying that all the "ingredients" are used in a sequence is not supported by the Qur'an. Each statement is isolated in a different location, and each claims that this how Allah made "Adam", resulting in a load of contradictory statements. Also, if Adam is made of "nothing" then ALL the other statement must be false, and if any of the other statements are true then "Adam being made out of nothing" must be false.

You could not as a Muslim, teach biology in a school, because it would create a conceptual conflict.
The sperm of his biological father,
This is what you said when I asked you whose sperm Allah used to "create" Adam... So Adam had a father? Who?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

sum
Posts: 6577
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:11 pm

Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by sum »

Hello Eagle

If spirituality is based on what is good and what is wrong, please tell me if the spirituality of Christians and muslims is the same.

sum

frankie
Posts: 2608
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by frankie »

Eagle:
The verses speaking of the origins of life constantly and consistenly describe a gradual process, fashioning, forming, reproduction (where the alaqa and the sperm are involved) and completition with the spirit from God.
The Quran claims that the “sexual fluid “of a man, proceeds from the between his backbone, and the “sexual fluid” of a woman proceeds from her ribs/chest, both of which are wrong.

The “sexual fluid “of a man is produced in the testes, found in the genital area, not the backbone of a man.

The “sexual fluid “of a woman, is formed within the vagina, during sexual intercourse, and plays no part in reproduction, it is there only for lubrication.

What does play a part in reproduction in a woman is the ovum, which is formed in the ovaries, found on each side of the lower abdomen, nowhere near the chest/ribs.

Allah got this wrong, making Allah fallible, meaning Allah cannot be God, as no God worthy of the name would make such fundamental errors about his own creation.

http://quranx.com/Tafsirs/86.6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi - Tafhim al-Qur'an

"Sulb" is the backbone and "tara'ib"the breast- bones, i.e. the ribs. Since the procreative fluid in both man and woman is discharged from that part of the body which is between the back and the breast, it is said that man has been created from the fluid issuing out froth between the back and the breast.”

Ibn Kathir

........Allah says,
فَلْيَنظُرِ الإِنسَـنُ مِمَّ خُلِقَ
(So, let man see from what he is created!) This is alerting man to the weakness of his origin from which he was created. The intent of it is to guide man to accept (the reality of) the Hereafter, because whoever is able to begin the creation then he is also able to repeat it in the same way. This is as Allah says,
وَهُوَ الَّذِى يَبْدَأُ الْخَلْقَ ثُمَّ يُعِيدُهُ وَهُوَ أَهْوَنُ عَلَيْهِ
(And He it is Who originates the creation, then He will repeat it; and this is easier for Him.) (30:27) Then Allah says,
خُلِقَ مِن مَّآءٍ دَافِقٍ
(He is created from a water gushing forth.) meaning, the sexual fluid that comes out bursting forth from the man and the woman. Thus, the child is produced from both of them by the permission of Allah. Due to this Allah says,
يَخْرُجُ مِن بَيْنِ الصُّلْبِ وَالتَّرَآئِبِ
(Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs.) meaning, the backbone (or loins) of the man and the ribs of the woman, which is referring to her chest. Shabib bin Bishr reported from `Ikrimah who narrated from Ibn `Abbas that he said,
يَخْرُجُ مِن بَيْنِ الصُّلْبِ وَالتَّرَآئِبِ
(Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs.) "The backbone of the man and the ribs of the woman. It (the fluid) is yellow and fine in texture. The child will not be born except from both of them (i.e., their sexual fluids).'' Concerning Allah's statement,
إِنَّهُ عَلَى رَجْعِهِ

Eagle
Posts: 2093
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:37 pm

Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by Eagle »

@manfred

Victory isnt the concern, except for those with low self-esteem, but the correction of falsehood is. When it repeats itself, then the correction to it will keep coming back.

"A" theory of evolution is an important nuance to the assumption that the Quran supports "the" theory of evolution, and the nuance was explained. Evolution in the Quran is the process by which a complex lifeform (mankind) came into being from a previous simpler state. As the verses say, Inorganic material, combined with water, fashioned, formed, sexual reproduction, completion with the spirit. The verses describing the process, some of them outlining the whole process at once, were given in the link viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18238&start=60#p239120" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The identity of Adam's father has no bearing on the Quranic statement that prior to mankind's completion with the spirit from God, an incomplete specie reproduced sexually.

Nothing in the quote from "frankie" with a statement from the Quran about the sun setting in an earthly location. The verse in question should be brought forth and the parts in question highlighted in order to clear the misunderstanding
Last edited by Eagle on Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Eagle
Posts: 2093
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:37 pm

Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by Eagle »

@frankie

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18229&p=238726&hilit=ribs#p238726" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Eagle
Posts: 2093
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:37 pm

Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by Eagle »

@sum

No 2 persons, even within the same religion have the same level of spiritual awareness just as no 2 persons possess the same physical skills

frankie
Posts: 2608
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by frankie »

Eagle wrote:@frankie

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18229&p=238726&hilit=ribs#p238726" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Not good enough Eagle.

Why should I take your version of Islamic biological reproduction over Allah's?

The tafsirs are more than clear on the interpretation of QS 86.6-7, putting your words into what this verse means is therefore meaningless, and rendered null and void, it is what Allah claims not what you claim.

Allah claims the sexual fluid from a man comes from his backbone, and the sexual fluid from the woman comes from her ribs, both of which are scientifically/biologically wrong.

The woman does not produce any "sexual fluid "which plays a direct part in reproduction, and if she did, it would not come from her ribs.

Allah proves not be an omniscient being, as no God worthy of the name would make such a blatant error about his own creation.

User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by manfred »

eagle repeating the same thing over and over does not make it better.

The points you made were addressed, but instead of dealing with that you just say the same thing again.

I asked you this:

So does Adam have a father?

And whose sperm was used to make Adam?

You avoided an answer. It would be more honest to say, "I don't know", and I would accept that.

Nothing in the quote from "frankie" with a statement from the Quran about the sun setting in an earthly location.
:lotpot: You cannot be serious.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

frankie
Posts: 2608
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by frankie »

Eagle wrote:So where is the Quranic statement that the sun sets in an earthly location

Quran 18.86

Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness

Allah claims the "sun sets in a spring of murky water", where people are, which means the sun must "set" in an "earthly location", as people live on land, not in the sea.( murky water)

Allah really needs to brush up on his astrophysics :lol:

Eagle
Posts: 2093
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:37 pm

Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by Eagle »

@manfred

Sure Adam's father is unmentioned anywhere. So how does that tangent affect the Quran's statement that sexual reproduction preceded mankind's completion with the spirit from God?

Eagle
Posts: 2093
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:37 pm

Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by Eagle »

@frankie

How is the "tafsir" clearer or more correct than the information provided in the link? How does an erroneous individual opinion affect the Quran itself?

frankie
Posts: 2608
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by frankie »

Eagle wrote:@frankie

How is the "tafsir" clearer or more correct than the information provided in the link? How does an erroneous individual opinion affect the Quran itself?
Is your god not clear enough for you Eagle?

If you want to claim tafsir are written by erroneous individuals then go ahead, but remember these erroneous individuals are clarifying your god's words, even though Allah says his words are clear and easy to understand.

Isn't disagreeing with your god blasphemy?

Sexual fluid does not come from a mans backbone, the woman does not produce sexual fluid directly involved in reproduction.

Allah/tafsir are wrong.

Eagle
Posts: 2093
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:37 pm

Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by Eagle »

Sure, sexual fluids do not come from the backbone and neither do women produce a fluid directly involved in reproduction. The tafsir is wrong. How is the Quran affected?

As to the verse of sura kahf
Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water
is not the same as
Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, it was setting in a spring of murky water
which is the poor reading/understanding.

In 37:5,70:40 the Quran speaks of the mashaariq/places of sunrise (plural), and maghaarib/places of sunset (plural). The statements clearly point to the ephemerity of these places, certainly not fixed, so there isnt one single place of sunrise or sunset but each of those ephemeral sunrises and sunset spots where one can see the sun rising or setting when looking at the horizon must be referred to with a definite article when spoken of on their own, as in sura kahf above 18:86,90.

Mashaariq literally means "the places where the sun rises". The east can be implicit depending on one's position on Earth however "the places where the sun rises" can also include the south or the north as happens in certain Arctic/Antarctic times of the year. Thats how accurate and consistent the Quran truly is contrary to other similarily ancient religious scriptures, such as the Hebrew Bible from where it is claimed the Quran finds inspiration and which represents the faulty cosmic understanding of the people that penned it, speaking of
Isa45:6,Ps113:3"the rising of the sun to the place where it sets"
traveling across the heaven from one end to another Ps19:7, circling the earth Ecc1:5, as well as of a salvific figure coming
Isa41:25"from the rising of the sun"
or of the miraculous prolongation of daylight for 24 additional hours being due to the sun made to stand still, instead of the earth Josh10:12-14, or of how, towards the end of the day
"the sun descended very much"
until it set
"near Gibeah" Judges19:11-14
probably setting in the "dwelling" God has created for it somewhere in the heavens Ps19:5, the place where both the sun and moon stand still in the face of God's might Hab3:11. There is also mention of times where
1Sam11:9"the sun is hot"
which implies that there are others where it cools down which obviously is an assertion that ignores the fact that while the sun is "cool" in nighttime, the opposite side of the round Earth is still receiving the Sun's warmth. The Sun was moving backwards in relation to the Earth during the miraculous extending of daytime Isa38:8.

18:86,90 relate some of the prophet Dhul Qarnayn journeys across the Earth. The Quran describes, as a third party observer, what he and the people he met experienced and saw in these places. 18:90 describes his arrival at the place of the rising sun, where he saw it rising. Allah is describing the scene after the event had happened, Dhul Qarnayn travelled the land and at one point during his expedition saw the sun rising from where he was standing, and this is how he knew he had reached the rising place of the sun.
In that place out of many that was worth mentionning because of a particular people he met there, the Quran says the sun was rising "on a people" specificaly. The reason for singling out a group from among those standing there and saying the sun was on them was to convey a specific image, that these were "a people to whom We had given no shelter from It" meaning the blazing sun was affecting them only as an uncivilized and primitive people who did not cover themselves or build protection against the blazing sun, contrary to Dhul Qarnayn and his men who knew how to protect themselves from it. This is why the sun rising was worth mentioning in relation to them because it affected them particularly; they suffered from it. If by Dhul Qarnayn's reaching the rising of the sun, what is meant is that he reached a place with a hole in the ground out of which the sun comes out there will need to be an explicit statement from the Quran to come to that conclusion, a statement such as it saying it rose "from below" or "behind" or "in front of a people" instead of "on a people" otherwise nothing excludes this place being a spot from where the sun can be seen rising if one looks at the horizon. Obviously, there arent so many of those places around us and one must go to special and particular places to see it rising and setting at the horizon. Reaching the place of the rising sun does not mean the sun could be seen rising physically a few meters away, that place extends from the spot where one is standing to the physical position of the sun in outter space.

Similarly in 18:86, no civilisation ever believed, including the pre-Islamic Arabs, that the sun would sink in the water at night. People instead thought the sun rose and set at the flat Earth's edges which is why it should have said he found it setting behind the water, not in it had it meant Dhul Qarnayn reached a spot of physical sunset.

The message of this verse is that he reached a spot where he stopped his progress because of a water source/aynin which could refer to an ocean just as it could be a sea, or a vaste lake etc and that at this spot where he met a people, he saw the sun setting in the water which is what anyone sees when looking at the horizon of a vaste water expanse.

The verses are not interested in speaking of the places where the sun physically rises or sets, but in describing what the prophet king Dhul Qarnayn saw on his expeditions, more specifically the people he met which is why it speaks of several of his journeys including one inside a valley where his sight was blocked by the mountains and couldnt therefore see the sun rising nor setting 18:93.

A legitimate question one might ask is why mention these places of sunrise and sunset considering Dhul Qarnayn probably saw many sunsets and sunrises on his journeys. The answer is that after seeing many of those during his expeditions, he reached one of the countless places where the sun sets and rises if one looks at the horizon and these specific places were worth mentionning, contrary to all the spots where he could see the sunrise and sunset when looking at the horizon, because he met in them particular people whose characteristics are given in the verses 18:86-90 (disbelievers deserving punishement at the setting of the sun, very primitive people at the rising of the sun).

frankie
Posts: 2608
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by frankie »

Eagle wrote:Sure, sexual fluids do not come from the backbone and neither do women produce a fluid directly involved in reproduction. The tafsir is wrong. How is the Quran affected?

As to the verse of sura kahf
Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water
is not the same as
Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, it was setting in a spring of murky water
which is the poor reading/understanding.

In 37:5,70:40 the Quran speaks of the mashaariq/places of sunrise (plural), and maghaarib/places of sunset (plural). The statements clearly point to the ephemerity of these places, certainly not fixed, so there isnt one single place of sunrise or sunset but each of those ephemeral sunrises and sunset spots where one can see the sun rising or setting when looking at the horizon must be referred to with a definite article when spoken of on their own, as in sura kahf above 18:86,90.

Mashaariq literally means "the places where the sun rises". The east can be implicit depending on one's position on Earth however "the places where the sun rises" can also include the south or the north as happens in certain Arctic/Antarctic times of the year. Thats how accurate and consistent the Quran truly is contrary to other similarily ancient religious scriptures, such as the Hebrew Bible from where it is claimed the Quran finds inspiration and which represents the faulty cosmic understanding of the people that penned it, speaking of
Isa45:6,Ps113:3"the rising of the sun to the place where it sets"
traveling across the heaven from one end to another Ps19:7, circling the earth Ecc1:5, as well as of a salvific figure coming
Isa41:25"from the rising of the sun"
or of the miraculous prolongation of daylight for 24 additional hours being due to the sun made to stand still, instead of the earth Josh10:12-14, or of how, towards the end of the day
"the sun descended very much"
until it set
"near Gibeah" Judges19:11-14
probably setting in the "dwelling" God has created for it somewhere in the heavens Ps19:5, the place where both the sun and moon stand still in the face of God's might Hab3:11. There is also mention of times where
1Sam11:9"the sun is hot"
which implies that there are others where it cools down which obviously is an assertion that ignores the fact that while the sun is "cool" in nighttime, the opposite side of the round Earth is still receiving the Sun's warmth. The Sun was moving backwards in relation to the Earth during the miraculous extending of daytime Isa38:8.

18:86,90 relate some of the prophet Dhul Qarnayn journeys across the Earth. The Quran describes, as a third party observer, what he and the people he met experienced and saw in these places. 18:90 describes his arrival at the place of the rising sun, where he saw it rising. Allah is describing the scene after the event had happened, Dhul Qarnayn travelled the land and at one point during his expedition saw the sun rising from where he was standing, and this is how he knew he had reached the rising place of the sun.
In that place out of many that was worth mentionning because of a particular people he met there, the Quran says the sun was rising "on a people" specificaly. The reason for singling out a group from among those standing there and saying the sun was on them was to convey a specific image, that these were "a people to whom We had given no shelter from It" meaning the blazing sun was affecting them only as an uncivilized and primitive people who did not cover themselves or build protection against the blazing sun, contrary to Dhul Qarnayn and his men who knew how to protect themselves from it. This is why the sun rising was worth mentioning in relation to them because it affected them particularly; they suffered from it. If by Dhul Qarnayn's reaching the rising of the sun, what is meant is that he reached a place with a hole in the ground out of which the sun comes out there will need to be an explicit statement from the Quran to come to that conclusion, a statement such as it saying it rose "from below" or "behind" or "in front of a people" instead of "on a people" otherwise nothing excludes this place being a spot from where the sun can be seen rising if one looks at the horizon. Obviously, there arent so many of those places around us and one must go to special and particular places to see it rising and setting at the horizon. Reaching the place of the rising sun does not mean the sun could be seen rising physically a few meters away, that place extends from the spot where one is standing to the physical position of the sun in outter space.

Similarly in 18:86, no civilisation ever believed, including the pre-Islamic Arabs, that the sun would sink in the water at night. People instead thought the sun rose and set at the flat Earth's edges which is why it should have said he found it setting behind the water, not in it had it meant Dhul Qarnayn reached a spot of physical sunset.

The message of this verse is that he reached a spot where he stopped his progress because of a water source/aynin which could refer to an ocean just as it could be a sea, or a vaste lake etc and that at this spot where he met a people, he saw the sun setting in the water which is what anyone sees when looking at the horizon of a vaste water expanse.

The verses are not interested in speaking of the places where the sun physically rises or sets, but in describing what the prophet king Dhul Qarnayn saw on his expeditions, more specifically the people he met which is why it speaks of several of his journeys including one inside a valley where his sight was blocked by the mountains and couldnt therefore see the sun rising nor setting 18:93.

A legitimate question one might ask is why mention these places of sunrise and sunset considering Dhul Qarnayn probably saw many sunsets and sunrises on his journeys. The answer is that after seeing many of those during his expeditions, he reached one of the countless places where the sun sets and rises if one looks at the horizon and these specific places were worth mentionning, contrary to all the spots where he could see the sunrise and sunset when looking at the horizon, because he met in them particular people whose characteristics are given in the verses 18:86-90 (disbelievers deserving punishement at the setting of the sun, very primitive people at the rising of the sun).

Eagle
Was Allah right or wrong when he told Mohammed "the sun sets in a spring of warm water?"

Sunan Abu Dawud : Dar-us-Salam reference / Hadith 4002
Narrated Abu Dharr:

I was sitting behind the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets ? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water (Hamiyah).

frankie
Posts: 2608
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by frankie »

Eagle wrote:Sure, sexual fluids do not come from the backbone and neither do women produce a fluid directly involved in reproduction. The tafsir is wrong. How is the Quran affected?

As to the verse of sura kahf
Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water
is not the same as
Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, it was setting in a spring of murky water
which is the poor reading/understanding.

In 37:5,70:40 the Quran speaks of the mashaariq/places of sunrise (plural), and maghaarib/places of sunset (plural). The statements clearly point to the ephemerity of these places, certainly not fixed, so there isnt one single place of sunrise or sunset but each of those ephemeral sunrises and sunset spots where one can see the sun rising or setting when looking at the horizon must be referred to with a definite article when spoken of on their own, as in sura kahf above 18:86,90.

Mashaariq literally means "the places where the sun rises". The east can be implicit depending on one's position on Earth however "the places where the sun rises" can also include the south or the north as happens in certain Arctic/Antarctic times of the year. Thats how accurate and consistent the Quran truly is contrary to other similarily ancient religious scriptures, such as the Hebrew Bible from where it is claimed the Quran finds inspiration and which represents the faulty cosmic understanding of the people that penned it, speaking of
Isa45:6,Ps113:3"the rising of the sun to the place where it sets"
traveling across the heaven from one end to another Ps19:7, circling the earth Ecc1:5, as well as of a salvific figure coming
Isa41:25"from the rising of the sun"
or of the miraculous prolongation of daylight for 24 additional hours being due to the sun made to stand still, instead of the earth Josh10:12-14, or of how, towards the end of the day
"the sun descended very much"
until it set
"near Gibeah" Judges19:11-14
probably setting in the "dwelling" God has created for it somewhere in the heavens Ps19:5, the place where both the sun and moon stand still in the face of God's might Hab3:11. There is also mention of times where
1Sam11:9"the sun is hot"
which implies that there are others where it cools down which obviously is an assertion that ignores the fact that while the sun is "cool" in nighttime, the opposite side of the round Earth is still receiving the Sun's warmth. The Sun was moving backwards in relation to the Earth during the miraculous extending of daytime Isa38:8.

18:86,90 relate some of the prophet Dhul Qarnayn journeys across the Earth. The Quran describes, as a third party observer, what he and the people he met experienced and saw in these places. 18:90 describes his arrival at the place of the rising sun, where he saw it rising. Allah is describing the scene after the event had happened, Dhul Qarnayn travelled the land and at one point during his expedition saw the sun rising from where he was standing, and this is how he knew he had reached the rising place of the sun.
In that place out of many that was worth mentionning because of a particular people he met there, the Quran says the sun was rising "on a people" specificaly. The reason for singling out a group from among those standing there and saying the sun was on them was to convey a specific image, that these were "a people to whom We had given no shelter from It" meaning the blazing sun was affecting them only as an uncivilized and primitive people who did not cover themselves or build protection against the blazing sun, contrary to Dhul Qarnayn and his men who knew how to protect themselves from it. This is why the sun rising was worth mentioning in relation to them because it affected them particularly; they suffered from it. If by Dhul Qarnayn's reaching the rising of the sun, what is meant is that he reached a place with a hole in the ground out of which the sun comes out there will need to be an explicit statement from the Quran to come to that conclusion, a statement such as it saying it rose "from below" or "behind" or "in front of a people" instead of "on a people" otherwise nothing excludes this place being a spot from where the sun can be seen rising if one looks at the horizon. Obviously, there arent so many of those places around us and one must go to special and particular places to see it rising and setting at the horizon. Reaching the place of the rising sun does not mean the sun could be seen rising physically a few meters away, that place extends from the spot where one is standing to the physical position of the sun in outter space.

Similarly in 18:86, no civilisation ever believed, including the pre-Islamic Arabs, that the sun would sink in the water at night. People instead thought the sun rose and set at the flat Earth's edges which is why it should have said he found it setting behind the water, not in it had it meant Dhul Qarnayn reached a spot of physical sunset.

The message of this verse is that he reached a spot where he stopped his progress because of a water source/aynin which could refer to an ocean just as it could be a sea, or a vaste lake etc and that at this spot where he met a people, he saw the sun setting in the water which is what anyone sees when looking at the horizon of a vaste water expanse.

The verses are not interested in speaking of the places where the sun physically rises or sets, but in describing what the prophet king Dhul Qarnayn saw on his expeditions, more specifically the people he met which is why it speaks of several of his journeys including one inside a valley where his sight was blocked by the mountains and couldnt therefore see the sun rising nor setting 18:93.

A legitimate question one might ask is why mention these places of sunrise and sunset considering Dhul Qarnayn probably saw many sunsets and sunrises on his journeys. The answer is that after seeing many of those during his expeditions, he reached one of the countless places where the sun sets and rises if one looks at the horizon and these specific places were worth mentionning, contrary to all the spots where he could see the sunrise and sunset when looking at the horizon, because he met in them particular people whose characteristics are given in the verses 18:86-90 (disbelievers deserving punishement at the setting of the sun, very primitive people at the rising of the sun).
Eagle
Sure, sexual fluids do not come from the backbone and neither do women produce a fluid directly involved in reproduction. The tafsir is wrong. How is the Quran affected?
Full marks for your honesty.

However, to ask how is the Quran affected is a loaded question.

The tafsir are there to clarify Allah's words, which Muslims use to make sense of what they are told is from an omniscient being.

If the tafsir is proved to be in error, which in this case it is, this proves the Quran is also in error, as the tafsir is explaining something which is a biological mistake, which should not be the case because the Quran is said to be from an omniscient being.

If the tafsir is wrong, that means Allah's words have not only been been mis interpreted, but they have been shown to be in error, which is blasphemy.

Just the implication of claiming Allah is wrong is bad enough, but to blatantly prove his words are factually wrong is evidence to show Allah is not the omniscient being it claims to be,as he made a mistake.

This begs the question, how many more tafsir are in error?

You have admitted the tafsir to be wrong, by default you have admitted the Quran to be wrong, you have proved you are using a fraudulent book to put your trust in for your salvation.

Time to use another book.

User avatar
skynightblaze
Posts: 3920
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:51 am

Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by skynightblaze »

Eagle wrote:It speaks of an extract of various non-organic, earthly elements, and water. In some of these verses it speaks of dust, dry clay at others of muddy, sticky clay, indicating that a combination of elements (the aforementionned water and dry matter) was involved at the beginning of the process.

The Grand Quran is a book of spiritual guidance and all of its statements are meant at stimulating spiritual growth, not scientific knowledge so the idea that it must provide a detailed description of the origin of life is misplaced. When it does allude to such process, its spiritual aim, as is clear from the context, includes the humbling of mankind by pointing to the earthly elements and water at its origins, as well as providing an argument for the simplicity of the concept of resurrection.

None of its statements however, no matter the subject treated, are at odds with factual information, whether historical, archeological, scientific etc.

And where does the Quran say that the sun sets in the ground or the water?
You have been asked the same question again and again but yet we don't see any reply.
1.Where does quran talk about any process?
2. Where does quran talk about combination of elements?
3. In another verse, quran says he created man out of nothing. Nothing implies there was no prior state/process before creation of human being i.e He came out of thin air. Also no where does the quran say that initially there was nothing and then...... So dont try that line of argument..

This denies evolution and also contradicts other statements as well.The way its written is completely at odds with basic reasoning skills and scientific community as well unlike what you have been claiming. Merely repeating that its not at odds wont change the fact that it is at odds. Unless quran mentioned that these different ingredients were mixed together , basic reasoning skills would tell us that this is an internal contradiction.

There was no need to tell us about creation of mankind but if Allah wanted to go there, he better tell us correct things. Nobody expects detailed scientific explanation. Plain but clear english language would also have sufficed. All quran had to do was say that a human being came into being via gradual process. Even this simple statement would have been acceptable.

Btw you talk about quran stimulating spirituality by these verses .I wonder what spirituality you find here with these verses. All I see is absolute stupidity. Here you find spirituality because you are attached emotionally to quran. Any claim it makes, you see merit in it even though there is nothing exceptional about the claim because you have already made your mind that this is coming from God. Also quran has not even proven that Allah was the one who created this. Merely hijacking natural phenomenon which were already known and claiming that Allah is behind it does not cut the cake. How can anyone think of spirituality without any proven evidence?
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

sum
Posts: 6577
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:11 pm

Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by sum »

Hello Eagle

Please clarify this for me -

If spirituality is based on what is good and what is wrong, please tell me if the spirituality of Christians and muslims is the same.

sum

Eagle
Posts: 2093
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:37 pm

Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by Eagle »

@sum

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18238&p=239286#p239211" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Eagle
Posts: 2093
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:37 pm

Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by Eagle »

skynightblaze wrote:You have been asked the same question again and again but yet we don't see any reply.
1.Where does quran talk about any process?
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18238&start=60#p239120" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
skynightblaze wrote:2. Where does quran talk about combination of elements?
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18238&start=80#p239184" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
skynightblaze wrote:3. In another verse, quran says he created man out of nothing. Nothing implies there was no prior state/process before creation of human being i.e He came out of thin air. Also no where does the quran say that initially there was nothing and then...... So dont try that line of argument..
Eagle wrote:Obviously the absence of organic life entails it originated from inorganic compounds, which were themselves created like every thing else in the universe that originated in nothingness 19:67. This is a particularity of the supreme Creator, initiating all things out of nothingness, He is 2:117"badeeu/Innovator and initiator of the heavens and the earth" meaning that in His case, contrary to all creative endeavours, He creates without any blueprint, preexisting inspiration, experience, simply through His word "and if HE decreed an order done, He only says be and it is". This is why God is the "best of creators".
skynightblaze wrote:This denies evolution and also contradicts other statements as well.The way its written is completely at odds with basic reasoning skills and scientific community as well unlike what you have been claiming. Merely repeating that its not at odds wont change the fact that it is at odds. Unless quran mentioned that these different ingredients were mixed together , basic reasoning skills would tell us that this is an internal contradiction.
Eagle wrote:All languages inherently accept exceptions unless the statement is clearly absolute, or that no other statements from the same source exist to allow the exlusion. The Quran speaks in several places of different non organic compounds at mankind's origins and in none of these verses does it make at absolute assertion.
skynightblaze wrote:Btw you talk about quran stimulating spirituality by these verses .I wonder what spirituality you find here with these verses.
Eagle wrote:...its spiritual aim, as is clear from the context, includes the humbling of mankind by pointing to the earthly elements and water at its origins, as well as providing an argument for the simplicity of the concept of resurrection.
skynightblaze wrote:Merely hijacking natural phenomenon which were already known and claiming that Allah is behind it does not cut the cake.
That is the first objection that wasnt expressed by others previously. The point of these verses isnt that "Allah is behind it". The point is what was quoted above.
skynightblaze wrote:How can anyone think of spirituality without any proven evidence?
Spiritual deduction, like scientific deduction isnt always dependent on factual, physical evidence. Only animals need to see a thing physically in front of their eyes to accept its presence. But then, even some animals are capable of mental deductions based on perception, without actually seeing...
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18238&start=40#p239057" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

sum
Posts: 6577
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:11 pm

Re: the seat of thought and intention

Post by sum »

Hello Eagle

I looked at your link.

Please tell me if religion has an effect on spirituality.

Is there some spirituality that is unacceptable to some religions?

sum

Post Reply