Mohammed the borrower

Prove Islam is from God, why it is the 'One True Religion'.
User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: Mohammed the borrower

Post by manfred »

Mary and the palm tree...

The story of the birth of Jesus is at first oddly different from the gospels.....
Thereupon she conceived him, and retired to a far-off place. And when she felt the throes of childbirth she lay down by the trunk of a palm-tree, crying: 'Oh, would that I had died and passed into oblivion!'

But a voice from below cried out to her: 'Do not despair. Your Lord has provided a brook that runs at your feet, and if you shake the trunk of this palm-tree it will drop fresh ripe dates in your lap. Therefore eat and drink and rejoice; and should you meet any mortal say to him: "I have vowed a fast to the Merciful and will not speak with any man today."'
Qur'an 19:22-26

Another apocrypha, the gospel of Pseudo-Mathew has this:
Now on the third day of their journey, as they went on, it happened that blessed Mary was wearied by the too great heat of the sun in the desert, and seeing a palm tree, she said to Joseph: "I should like to rest a little in the shade of this tree." And Joseph led her quickly to the palm and let her dismount from her animal . And when blessed Mary had sat down she looked up at the top of the palm tree and saw that it was full of fruits, and said to Joseph: "I wish someone could fetch some of these fruits of the palm tree." And Joseph said to her: "I wonder that you say this; for you see how high this palm tree is, and (I wonder ) that you even think about eating of the fruits of the palm. I think rather of the lack of water, which already fails us n the skins, and we have nothing with which we can re-fresh ourselves and the animals."

Then the child Jesus, who was sitting with a happy countenance in his mother's lap, said to the palm: "Bend down your branches, O Tree and refresh my mother with your fruit." And immediately at this command the palm bent its head down to the feet of blessed Mary, and they gathered from it fruits with which they all refreshed themselves.....Then Jesus said to it: "Raise yourself, O palm .....and let the waters flow so that we may quench our thirst from it." And immediately it raised itself, and there began to gush out by its root a fountain of water very clear, fresh and completely bright.
This is a sixth century story, see Elliot "The Apocryphal New Testament", page 86

This parallel shows how Mohammed's recollections are not always very good. In the first example from the previous post he made some deliberate changes. But here he is conflating things again. Pseudo Matthew tells us about Mary travelling with Joseph, and Jesus, the infant, miraculously providing food and water while Mary rests under a palm tree.

Where else did Mary travel with Joseph anywhere? Well, in the story about the birth of Jesus of course!....

So in Mohammed's head the two tales became one. Mary rests under the palm tree, and a "voice from below" comforts her and provides the same food and water. But this then became also the place where Jesus was born...

Something else worth looking at is the "voice from below" that speaks to Mary in the Qur'an... The general reading is that it was Jesus, the infant, speaking "from below", i.e. from her womb.

http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/frames/ch19.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This would then complete the circle returning to pseudo-Matthew's fable.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"
Eagle
Posts: 2093
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:37 pm

Re: Mohammed the borrower

Post by Eagle »

So Waraqa taught private lessons in scriptures to the prophet Muhammad ans still believed in him prior to his death as a true messenger of God, wishing he could live on to support him in his difficult mission...

And the Bukhari hadith was never dismissed, it was explained why the hadith compiler approriately put it in the chapter on "lying". So there is a Christian who joined Islam in Mecca and apostised later in Medina, then claiming he used to fabricate the revelations for the prophet Muhammad. Yet how could he remain Muslim for such a long time originally converting in sincere faith during the hardest time for the nascent Muslim community, until late in Medina and the revelations of suras baqara and aal imran which he used to read, and subsequent revelations he used to write, all the while knowing it to be a lie, deliberately fabricating information to include into the Quran which he used daily in his supplications? How credible is his testimony and how appropriate is it for his story to be included in the chapter about lying in Bukhari's collection.

The only weak attempt at defending the above lie was to propose that this Christian scribe only uncovered the supposed deception after "careful consideration" and yet he was the one making all things up since many years?

The purpose of this thread as stated earlier by one of those people using manfred's account was to convince Muslims with some possibilities of the prophet Muhammad having being taught or interracted or overheard something in some language which made him and this team of scribes translate and elaborate into this intricate discourse... and Muslims are expected to reasonably accept a massive conspiracy theory based in these 2 weak claims?
Eagle
Posts: 2093
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:37 pm

Re: Mohammed the borrower

Post by Eagle »

It is no suprise that a Christian would loath the Quranic depiction of Jesus as a regular prophet in a long line of Israelite tradition from which he never departed, given the mythological description that is made of him in the Greek writings attributed to some of his followers.

As alluded to earlier, these writers had a clear agenda and purposefully omitted whole episodes and miracles from Jesus' life which they thought were irrelevant to their point.
Jn20:30"Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book" Jn21:25"Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written".
Concerning the infancy Gospel's reliability, just because it was rejected as apocrypha, does not mean it was rejected for all of its contents and besides, a man's apocrypha was another's scripture until very late in the canonization process of the Bible, as seen with the book of revelation regarded as apocrypha and then finally canonized. Even a "late compilation" argument is a non-issue, considering that every book of the NT was composed decades after Jesus, containing traditions obviously preceding it and transmitted orally until written down. Those that were omitted, the Quran rehabilitates in their correct form and context, and places them into the history of the prophet Jesus' life with a clear purpose.
User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: Mohammed the borrower

Post by manfred »

Eagle... these are stories written 500 years after Jesus, and by people who had as much knowledge of what actually happened as you.They were not even "rejected" as they materialised AFTER the NT was already agreed, at least 200 years before.
Again you are merely playing with extended definitions... Why would a relatively late acceptance of the book of revelation mean that these stories are true? How has one got even the slightest thing to do with other?

And you mention John speaking of other miracles... the same John also said that the changing of the water to wine at Cana was the FIRST. So including Jesus talking from the womb and the cradle would contradict the canonical texts.

And depicting Jesus as a prophet is NOT what these apocryphal texts do, quite the opposite.

So you can't have it both ways. If you want to believe the Arabic Infancy gospel then you will also accept its message that Jesus was the Son of God, as it says so in the passage quoted. If you do not, the you also cannot believe Mohammed's tale which is based on it.

That is really your choice.

The Qur'an regurgitates muddles versions of Christian fables. It does not "rehabilitate" anything. The account of the life of Jesus in the Qur'an is garbled and absurd.

He taught "my mom was a nice woman" , fed her with some dates, had been given a book nobody has ever seen read,apart from Moses apparently, taught "Islam" and then comes Allah's deception with the cross. It really is too stupid to stand up for long enough to know it down.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"
User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: Mohammed the borrower

Post by manfred »

One more... the clay birds...
.....He will say: "I bring you a sign from your Lord. From clay I will make for you the likeness of a bird. I shall breathe into it and, by God's leave, it shall become a living bird.....
Quran 3:49

This has a clear parallel in the Infant Gospel of Thomas, which in turn was one of the sources for Pseudo Matthew mentioned earlier.
"The child Jesus, when 5 years of age, was playing on the road by a dirty stream of running water; and having brought it all together into ditches, immediately made it pure and clean; by saying a single word. Then having moistened some earth, he made of it twelve sparrows. And it was the Sabbath day when he did these things. There were many other children playing with him. Now a Jew, seeing what Jesus did, that he was playing on the Sabbath day, went his way to (Jesus') father Joseph. He said, "Behold, your son is at the stream of dirty water, and having taken up some mud, has made of it twelve sparrows, thus desecrating the Sabbath. On this Joseph went to the spot, and cried out, "Why did you do these things on the Sabbath day which it is not lawful to do?" Jesus then clapped his hands at the sparrows and cried aloud to them, "Go off!". So they, clucking, flew away. The Jews seeing it were astonished, and went and told their rulers what they had seen Jesus do."
In the Infant Gospel of Thomas, the story has a teaching point about the Sabbath, but not well expressed. The same idea appears better explained in the canonical Gospels,... is working miracles forbidden on a Sabbath was also, briefly, a theme in John.

But here Jesus is not explaining what he is doing, it is left in the air. He made some birds from clay, he clapped his hand and they flew off...

Did Jesus want to hide what he was doing? No explanation given linking the end of the story with the beginning. You are left thinking Jesus is a bit like Dynamo or Houdini and does neat tricks.... That is one of the reasons texts like this were rejected by the church.

Mohammed clearly did not grasp the story properly either. I don't blame him, it is not well told. But Mohammed used it anyway. He shortened it, left out the thing about the sabbath, and sticks to reporting the parlour trick, sorry, "sign of the Lord".

There is something about Mohammed using this that is quite revealing: He did not really appreciate that in a subtle way it contradicts his claim that Jesus is a mere "prophet"... Giving life to a thing from clay was also done by...????
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"
Eagle
Posts: 2093
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:37 pm

Re: Mohammed the borrower

Post by Eagle »

Sure John's convoluted account states
in John3, while related the story of the mysterious Nicodemus, a "ruler of the Jews" who was allegedly attracted to Jesus because of his miracles yet besides the "water to wine" one, Jesus' hadnt yet performed any miracle, did not begin his ministry, even though Jn2:24 states many miracles were performed only to later claim that a healing he performed in Capernaum was only his second miracle Jn4:54.

Current estimates for the composition of the book of revelations point to the late 80s. If oral tradition can be preserved for almost a century for it to be considered reliable enough according to Church standards, then what kind of logic denies the reliability of the transmission of oral tradition just a few years later when the infancy Gospel of Thomas was put to writing? That Gospel is believed to have been finalized anywhere between the late 80s and 185CE.

And nobody spoke of these texts depicting Jesus as a prophet. The Quran does that, and even some parts of the Greek testament do, explicitly.
User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: Mohammed the borrower

Post by manfred »

eagle wrote:The purpose of this thread as stated earlier by one of those people using manfred's account was to convince Muslims with some possibilities of the prophet Muhammad having being taught or interracted or overheard something in some language which made him and this team of scribes translate and elaborate into this intricate discourse... and Muslims are expected to reasonably accept a massive conspiracy theory based in these 2 weak claims?
No that what not the purpose. It was to demonstrate that Mohammed had contacts to Christians in Mecca, and obviously, if these lived there, they can speak Arabic. Does having a different religion mean your cannot speak the language of other people?
We had this discussion, and it has been clearly explained to you, with references, and if you want more hadith I have them. But I already know what you will say... they may be sahih, but they are "weak" (meaning pretend they don't exist) if they say something that rattles the cage...
Early Christians regarded the Infancy Gospel of Thomas as inauthentic and heretical. Hipploytus identified it as a fake and a heresy in his Refutation of All Heresies, and his contemporary Origen referred to it in a similar way in a homily written in the early 3rd century. Eusebius rejected it as a heretical "fiction" in the third book of his 4th-century Church History, and Pope Gelasius I included it in his list of heretical books in the 5th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infancy_Gospel_of_Thomas" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In rejecting texts it is not ONLY the date that matters. The text is not a real Christian text, as it teaches a gnostic version of Christianity. Also, the oldest version is written in Coptic, the language of the Egyptians, and not in either Aramaic, the common language of Judea at the time nor in the general link language used by all other NT authors, Greek.

Thomas would not have known Coptic, so this suggest it is a falsely attributed to Thomas. Also, if you read it it portraits Jesus as a sort of young Harry Potter, so it lacks agreement with earlier texts.

And we know it is younger than the gospel of Luke, because it refers to it directly in chapter 19.

Scholars generally agree on a date in the mid- to late-2nd century A.D, not 80AD as you suggest.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"
Eagle
Posts: 2093
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:37 pm

Re: Mohammed the borrower

Post by Eagle »

Another interesting observation is how the Quran ommits what now proves to be fictions, absurdities and anachronisms of the NT and apocryphal writings, as well as Christian traditions -such as Herod's mass killing episode that prompted Mary to flee to Egypt in order to give birth safely, or the census of Quirinus- from where critics claim Muhammad the illiterate supposedly deliberately cherry picked, and at other times carelessly copied widely scattered information from within his plethora of written books and traditions but yet still managed to glue everything together in the most well-knit, intricate and meaningful manner.

This reality is even more striking if one looks at the account of Jesus' birth, inappropriately analyzed a few posts back.

The messenger angel tamathala laha/lit he transformed to her (Mary) a well made human being, then breathed into her the spirit and she conceived Isa.

At an advanced point of her pregnancy, she withdrew to a remote place, away from the Temple in search of a private place to deliver when the moment would come. The verse 19:22, through the double use of the particle "fa" indicates an time interval between the moment she got pregnant and her decision to leave her dwelling place.

She would this way be hidden from the people's eyes and ears (her pain was intense 19:23), and would have time to compose herself mentally and physically prior to the return with her newborn. In addition, she safeguarded herself from the clamor had she been seen or heard during or right after the process of delivery, in a debasing state, providing her accusers with additional injurious words at the sight of a supposedly chaste and pious woman devoted in the sanctuary to God's service conceiving outside wedlock and in addition in the sanctuary itself and under the guardianship of Zakariya one of the most highly regarded Temple devotee and prophet 19:22. As she set herself on her way out of her community, she did not know what to expect and how things would turn out in her favor, but being the God-conscious woman that she was, she trusted in God.

During her walk, the suffering of childbirth began, prompting her to stop and sit under the shade of a palm tree. Her pain was so intense and her case so desperate, delivering in the middle of nowhere without any food and most importantly no water which is crucial not only for hydratation during and after labor when she would have lost plenty of body fluids, but also during the process of delivery itself, as well as afterwards to help her cleanse herself and the newborn. Lacking these elements, in addition to her suffering, she wished she had died. But unexpectedly, God, as He did during her seclusion in the Temple, took it on Himself to sustain and protect her. A voice called from beneath her position, indicating to her the presence of a water source directly under her and the tree, plentiful and flowing meaning it will not stagnate or spoil as she makes use of it throughout her ordeal, and comforting her with words telling her how the sustenance of food and water is abundantly put within easy reach and would re-energize and reinvigorate her entirely 19:23-6.

All she had to do was shake the trunk of the tree, no matter her feebleness, the simple action of attempting to shake it, would miraculously create a motion in the tree that would force loose the ripe fruits. It is interesting to note, how the Quran in its well established pattern of employing meaningful words and placing them surgically in a sentence, relates how before anything else, the first comfort Mary was given was the abundance of water, being of primary importance, and then speaks of the availability of highly nutritious food...
Eagle
Posts: 2093
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:37 pm

Re: Mohammed the borrower

Post by Eagle »

As to the bird from clay miracle, the Quran does not say it was performed in his infancy, it connects it to his ministry to the Israelites, coming to them and preaching and performing other miracles with Allah's permission like his healing powers and knowledge of the unseen 3:49-55,5:110. Obviously there would have been no reason to give Jesus such powers in his childhood, because he needed them in adulthood in support of his ministry to demonstrate certain points, including the process of resurrection of the dead from dust, a concept heavily disputed at the time.

The Quran ascribes special traits to other prophets in their infancy, such as John/Yahya, given wisdom and divine knowledge as a child in answer to his father Zakariya's request for an upright offspring among his wicked and sinful contemporaries 19:12.

Concerning the relevancy of Jesus' miracles and their purpose, breathing life into a bird from clay and bringing back the dead to life demonstrate to an audience highly skeptical of the concept of resurrection, how life can be gathered from dust and how a lifeless body can be risen back. It is interesting to note that long before, they had already been shown, several times over in the days of Musa the reality of the concept. First when many among them were themselves brought back to life following their outrageous request of seeing God 2:55-6 and then when a murdered person was publicly resurrected 2:72-4.

Even before, the Quran recounts how Ibrahim was shown the definite possibility of the concept of resurrection, through the bringing back to life of shredded birds 2:260. In the course of history, several prophets and godly people were shown, through different angles, the reality of the concept, sometimes it was only meant to them, and other times it included a larger audience indirectly. The youths of the cave that spent several centuries in a state of sleep and finally made to wake up and return to their town, demonstrated God's ability to control the process of life by preserving their bodies from decay without any food intake for a very long time 18:9-25. In 2:259 an individual was made to die for a hundred years then brought back to life, although his food, by the will of God, remained intact, unaffected by the passage of time, his donkey had almost disappeared into dust, then brought back to life in front of his very eyes.
User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: Mohammed the borrower

Post by manfred »

Don't change the subject. We are looking at where Mohammed got his material from that he claimed he received directly from Allah. Whatever you want to believe about Christianity is entirely irrelevant to that.

Here is another one
This is an account of a divine secret. We reveal it to you. You were not present when they cast lots to see which of them should have charge of Mary; nor were you present when they argued about her.
Qur'an 3:44


So here Allah tells us a big secret... really? Apparently Joseph won Mary in a lottery... a miracle.... nobody else knew, so this proves the Qur'an is "divine", right eagle?

There is a text called "History of Joseph the Carpenter" , a compilation of stories concerning Mary, Joseph, and the "holy family," probably composed in Byzantine Egypt in Greek during the life time of Mohammed, and there is even an Arabic language translation from that time.

in verse 4 we have:
Therefore they immediately sent out, and assembled twelve old men of the tribe of Judah. And they wrote down the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. And the lot fell upon the pious old man, righteous Joseph. Then the priests answered, and said to my blessed mother: Go with Joseph, and be with him till the time of your marriage.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0805.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So this divine secret is also from an apocryphal folk tale....

And eagle... whatever you want to believe to be true of all these old stories, that is up to you. But that does not alter the fact that Mohammed practised deception when he claims the old stories are direct "revelations" from the angel Gabriel, and the exact words of Allah.

St. Clair Tisdall summed it up over 100 years ago in his book "The Original Sources Of The Quran", p210:

"From the careful examination of the whole subject dealt with in this chapter (i.e., The Influence Of Christianity & Christian Apocryphal Books) we therefore conclude that the influence of true and genuine Christian teaching upon the Quran and upon Islam in general has been very slight indeed, while on the other hand apocryphal traditions and in certain respects heretical doctrines have a claim to be considered as forming one of the original sources of Muhammadan faith. "
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"
Eagle
Posts: 2093
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:37 pm

Re: Mohammed the borrower

Post by Eagle »

As to the Meccan sources, the 3 proposed candidates were shown to be extremely weak probabilities for the clear reasons given and that had no answer.

As to the infancy Gospel it was never rejected for all of its contents obviously, some parts of it, such as Jesus being depicted as a nasty kid were what bothered those who decided what to include or not into the Greek compilation of Christian writings. Nobody ever rehected it based on the presence of the bird from clay miracle. And the poibt remains that If oral tradition can be preserved for almost a century for it to be considered reliable enough according to Church standards as is the case for the book of revelatiobs, then what kind of logic denies the reliability of the transmission of oral tradition just a few years later when the infancy Gospel of Thomas was put to writing? That Gospel is believed to have been finalized anywhere between the late 80s and 185CE.
Eagle
Posts: 2093
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:37 pm

Re: Mohammed the borrower

Post by Eagle »

The unseen that was revealed to the prophet Muhammad does not relate only to the casting of lots to determine who would be the guardian of Mary after she was orphanned at a young age, but to the whole intricate account that rehabilitates the truth, forgotten, neglected or obscured, as to Jesus' conception and early years.

To determine what is reasonably true or false in all thise secondary Christian writings is necessary in light of the claim that the Quran was man made. 2 documents containing the same core truth does not amount to plagiarism, the information could also have arrived to both through a third source...
User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: Mohammed the borrower

Post by manfred »

As to the bird from clay miracle, the Quran does not say it was performed in his infancy,
The Qur;an does not give an age, but even it put the story later, it is still "borrowed", obviously.
the 3 proposed candidates were shown to be extremely weak probabilities for the clear reasons given and that had no answer.
I am not going into your repeat ad nauseam game again. You had an answer, with references. And you saying something is not "showing" anything.

If you want to believe the daft idea that Mohammed' invisible friend was his source, I humbly suggest you ask for an appointment with a psychiatrist.
That Gospel is believed to have been finalized anywhere between the late 80s and 185CE.
You had a response to that.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"
User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: Mohammed the borrower

Post by manfred »

2 documents containing the same core truth does not amount to plagiarism, the information could also have arrived to both through a third source...
you said that silly thing several times now. Two documents saying 2 +2 = 4 do not suggest plagiarism.
A new document retelling substantial elements of older ones clearly does, specially when it can be shown that the author of the new one had access to the old one.

So let me put for you the story the last time you said that:
The class get's an essay to write... "my best holiday adventure"

Jack hands in his essay. It is about being allowed to drive a tractor. The teacher, when reading it, thinks it is familiar. He looks at some essays from past years and finds the essay of Jack's brother who is 3 years older. It is also about driving a tractor, and not only that, almost all the details of the story are the same... the cat almost run over, the engine cutting out, not finding the brake right away...hitting the hey stack.... the home made lemonade at the end... all there. A few bits are in a different order, one or two details are missing, but other than that they are the same.

So the teacher concludes, (obviously, right eagle?) that Jack had an invisible friend called Gabriel who helped him with his essay and his older brother had nothing at all to do with the similarities... also, naturally, the teacher concludes that Jack's story is the most beautiful ever, and true word for word, but his brother's story is all false and wicked and corrupt. Obviously. Because that is how a normal human brain works. Is that right eagle?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"
User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: Mohammed the borrower

Post by manfred »

And, as foot note on the birds from clay story...

Elsewhere Mohammed says this
Is then He, Who creates as one who creates not? Will you not then remember?
Quran 16:17

So without realising he gave Jesus divine attributes... Jesus, in turning the clay bird in to a living one, is doing what Allah does... And then of course later he says that is not possible, see the verse above.

There is also an interesting bit in Tabari:
Tabari reports on the authority of Ibn Jurajy that the two monks angrily said to the Prophet, “If you tell the truth, then show us a servant who revived the dead, healed the one born blind, AND COULD FASHION OF CLAY THE FORM OF A BIRD AND BREATHE INTO IT, AND IT BECAME A BIRD. Rather, Jesus is God.” The Prophet said nothing until Gabriel came to him and said, “O Muhammad, ‘They have indeed rejected faith who say that God is Christ, the son of Mary’ [Q. 5:17 and 72].” The Messenger of God said, “O Gabriel, they asked me to inform them of another example like that of Jesus.” Gabriel answered, “The example of Jesus with God is like that of Adam. He created him of dust, then said to him: Be! and he was.” When the men returned next morning, the Prophet recited to them these verses (Tabari, VI, pp. 467-71).
Of course neither Mohammed nor his invisible friend addressed the issue, suddenly Jesus is like any man, but then he has the power to create life..

Mohammed was lousy at harmonising his sources, so you get lots of contradictions. Would his happen if you had ONE DIVINE source?

And you rather causally mentioned that Waraqa died before Mohammed's "career" started... as if that means he could not have been a source. We know he he had contact with him for some time, one source says they met when Mohammed was five years old, and that is was Waraqa who was asked to confirm that Mohammed was a prophet, suggesting that not only was Waraqa a respected man, but also quite close to Mohammed.... Mysteriously, the sources say he did "confirm" Mohammed as a prophet, but only to Mohammed and Khadija. So we only have Mohammed's word for that, for what that is worth, and even that as reported by others, much later.

I think it is highly suspicious that Waraqa died before he could say anything in public about Mohammed, and very convenient for Mohammed. This this "confirming" even happen? Did Mohammed just make use of Waraqa'a death? Or worse, did Waraqa say something Mohammed did not want to hear, and he "helped along" his departure from this life... ? Mohammed was not known for being tolerant of critics ...

We will never know for sure, but a tale about some guy being bullied in a cave by a stranger and being told to read something when he could not, all just automatically forces the conclusion on you "hey, that must be a prophet!", right eagle?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"
frankie
Posts: 2612
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: Mohammed the borrower

Post by frankie »

Eagle wrote:The unseen that was revealed to the prophet Muhammad does not relate only to the casting of lots to determine who would be the guardian of Mary after she was orphanned at a young age, but to the whole intricate account that rehabilitates the truth, forgotten, neglected or obscured, as to Jesus' conception and early years.

To determine what is reasonably true or false in all thise secondary Christian writings is necessary in light of the claim that the Quran was man made. 2 documents containing the same core truth does not amount to plagiarism, the information could also have arrived to both through a third source...

Eagle

Whatever you want to claim about Mary, the Quran gets her position in Christian doctrine wrong, which should not be the case if Allah were the same God that gave Mary the authority to be the mother of Jesus.

The Quran tells Muslims something which is not true,that Mary is part of the Trinity when she is not.

The Quran gets this wrong because it is a man made book, and men are fallible, the author of the Quran mis understood the concept of the Trinity which comprises Father, Son and Holy Spirit,nowhere does it mention Mary.

One error in a book said to come from the divine is one too many, the Quran proves itself to be a man made book, not a God made book.
Eagle
Posts: 2093
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:37 pm

Re: Mohammed the borrower

Post by Eagle »

The infancy Gospel is dated, again to anywhere between the 80s for the earliest (which makes it contemporary to Luke's compilation) and 185CE. And even if one takes the latest estimates, this doesnt negate it was preceded by oral tradition and one still needs to explain what kind of logic denies the reliability of its transmission just because that tradition was put to writing a few years later than the canonized Gospels. That the oldest known version of it is Coptic means nothing as to the possibility of there being many other versions as with every apocrypha. The early Church fathers refer to it, without saying it is Coptic. It was also never discredited for all of its contents obviously, neither for the miracles in it such as the bird from clay miracle but because among other things it depicts Jesus in an unflattering, capricious, malicious way as were Greek mythological “trickster” gods and pagan “child-gods” from antiquity, leading scholars to believe it was designed as a piece of Christian missionary propaganda, intended to demonstrate the divine nature of Jesus in a manner familiar to the Hellenistic, Egyptian and other pagans proselytized by the early Christians.

So Waraqa's story is true except for the bothering part that crumbles the whole conspiracy claim...maybe he was assassinated or maybe it was another Waraqa that believed in the prophet of God despite being his secret teacher for years...and the attempted parallel with the dissertation fails on the simple point that the 2 texts explicitly claim to be of divine origin or "inspired". Now all is left is demonstrate which one is right in its claim.
Last edited by Eagle on Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
frankie
Posts: 2612
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: Mohammed the borrower

Post by frankie »

Eagle

Your refusal to respond to the points made about Mary being falsely included within the Trinity in your faith speaks louder than anything else could.

This one error of many others in the Quran proves beyond all doubt Islam is based on lies and deceit, it does not originate from the god it claims to, but from the minds of men, who got things wrong.

You are putting your salvation then in a fraudulent book, designed to deceive, and the one who deceives according to the very book the Quran claims to represent is Satan.
Eagle
Posts: 2093
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:37 pm

Re: Mohammed the borrower

Post by Eagle »

Where is she described as part of the trinity in the Quran
frankie
Posts: 2612
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: Mohammed the borrower

Post by frankie »

Eagle wrote:Where is she described as part of the trinity in the Quran
Quran 5.116

And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.


Ibn Kathir 5.116
`Isa Rejects Shirk and Affirms Tawhid
Allah will also speak to His servant and Messenger, `Isa son of Maryam, peace be upon him, saying to him on the Day of Resurrection in the presence of those who worshipped `Isa and his mother as gods besides Allah,

(O `Isa, son of Maryam! Did you say unto men: `Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah') This is a threat and a warning to Christians, chastising them in public, as Qatadah and others said, and Qatadah mentioned this Ayah as evidence,
("This is a Day on which the truthful will profit from their truth.'') 5:119Allah's statement,

http://quranx.com/Tafsirs/5.116" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Quran 4.171
O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger from Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Three": desist: It will be better for you: For Allah is One God: Glory be to Him: (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.


Al-Jalalayn Quran 4.171
O People of the Scripture, the Gospel, do not go to extremes, do not go beyond the bounds, in your religion and do not say about God except, the saying of, the truth, such as exalting Him above any associations with a partner or a child: the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word which He cast to, [which] He conveyed to, Mary, and a spirit, that is, one whose spirit is, from Him: he [Jesus] is here attached to God, exalted be He, as an honouring for him, and not as you claim, that he is the son of God, or a god alongside Him, or one of three, because one that possesses a spirit is compound, while God transcends being compound and the attribution of compounds to Him.

So believe in God and His messengers, and do not say, that the gods are, ‘Three’, God, Jesus and his mother. Refrain, from this and say what, it is better for you, [to say], which is the profession of His Oneness. Verily, God is but One God.

Glory be to Him, transcending [the possibility], that He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth, as possessions, creatures and servants, and such sovereignty is not compatible with [that] prophethood [of Jesus]. God suffices as a Guardian, a Witness to this.
Post Reply