Mohammed the borrower

Prove Islam is from God, why it is the 'One True Religion'.
sum
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Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:11 pm

Re: Mohammed the borrower

Post by sum »

Hello Eagle

Your quote -
When the last revelation speaks of itself as the reminder, it is in line with the teaching that, contrary to the previous scriptures stating that God wanted the knowledge of good and bad to remain hidden from humanity, Allah gave this knowlegde to mankind from the begginning

Can you tell me where the Christian message is that God wanted to keep the knowledge of good and bad hidden from mankind? Have you any references for this claim? Allah, in the Koran, confirms the previous scriptures and so it appears to contradict what you are claiming.

sum

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manfred
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Re: Mohammed the borrower

Post by manfred »

The Zechariah mentionned is Jesus' uncle, and was a prophet Lk1.
Oh sorry, you meant THAT Zachariah...

He was the father of John the Baptist, and a priest, not a prophet as such, although these two things do not by necessity exclude each other and some call him a "prophet", but all we are actually told is that he had a vision about getting a son in his old age, which he disbelieved. In fact, he had no "message" to deliver., which makes the description "prophet" somewhat loose. Those that apply the title to him were all people living long after him, (e.g. Martin Luther) and he was not seen as a "prophet" in his lifetime.

His WIFE was related in some unspecified way to May, the mother Jesus, according to Luke, but as to him being the uncle of Jesus or, as the Qur'an suggests, the guardian of Mary, that is not confirmed by older texts.

What is interesting also is another variation is the account of the Qur'an of this same Zachariah being the guardian of Mary. This is a tale found in one of the texts we already mentioned as a source of the QUr'an, the Infant Gospel of James, but is not part of any of the canonical gospels.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=K9z ... ry&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Eagle
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Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:37 pm

Re: Mohammed the borrower

Post by Eagle »

There are no loose definitions of what a prophet is; the descriptions are firm and precise, as already explained, among them the prerequisite of being filled with the spirit of holiness (what Christians like to call "holy spirit"), which immidiately makes the recipient a prophet able to prophecy. That is what happenned to Zechariah, the uncle of Jesus, as per Lk1, who began fortelling of future events (in relation to John and Jesus) as well as praising God. The spiritual message therein was transmitted by Zechariah to his contemporaries, who in turn kept it and conveyed it to the next generations until it was put to writing by the author of Luke. The need to "loosen up" the definition of a prophet is a Chrisitan diversion due to their peculiar notion of being filled with the holy ghost once they accept Christ, and yet are still unable to prophecy anything but instead are in a state of drunkedness Ephesians5:18...

Eagle
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Re: Mohammed the borrower

Post by Eagle »

@sum

The "dim remnants of truth" referred to in the biblical account of creation are the ones that parallel with the last revelation, where it states that the primary purpose for which Adam and Eve were created, was to fill the earth and rule over the living creatures Gen1:28-29,2:5. They were created from ground of the earth (not heaven) Gen2:7-8. Adam and Eve's "immortality" was tied to eating from the Tree of Life, which they could freely access as the Garden of Eden's caretakers Gen2:15-17. Since their "immortality" was conditioned on their staying in the Garden of Eden, it means that they were actually mortal human beings who were able to benefit from the priviledge of eating the fruit of the Tree of Life to stay alive indefinitely. Their transgression, marked by the eating from the tree of knowledge which imbued them with consciousness of both good and evil resulted in their expulsion from the Garden of Eden and with that expulsion, their ability to eat from the fruit of the Tree of Life stopped. Had they kept eating from the tree of life the result could have been that spiritualy degenerate people and criminals might live forever.

Thus the result of their expulsion is that they eventually died. As already said, despite certain important variations, many fundamental aspects remain in the HB and parallel with the Quranic account, including the fact that it must have been God's plan from the beginning to ultimately place mankind on the earth, as His vicegerents. The main areas where the Quran disagrees with the Tanakh is that in the latter, the knowledge of good and evil were concealed from man in a "tree of knowledge" whereas the Quran clearly states that this spiritual feature is ingrained and hardwired in man.

According to the interpolated HB, when man ate from the tree of the knowledge of good an evil, man "became like one of us", against God's will and desire. According to the Quran, God "breathed into man of his spirit" and in sura Shams, defines it as "He inspired the soul with the knowledge of evil and good", meaning he was meant to "become like us". The HB still contains elements of this reality when it states that man was created in the "image of God".

sum
Posts: 6568
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:11 pm

Re: Mohammed the borrower

Post by sum »

Hello Eagle

The stories of Adam and Eve are nothing but myths and legends. Perhaps you regard them as factual but I do not. Have you any quotes of Jesus claiming that his religion, Christianity, wants to keep people in the dark about what is right and wrong?

This is a most significant point to make and one which I have never heard before. If Jesus failed to give a message of the difference between right and wrong, good and bad, then his mission on earth was a monumental failure. Are you saying that Christianity is a "free for all" regarding good and bad with man free to do as he wishes?

Your post appears to be the result of Islamic scholars trying their very best to discredit Christianity by clinging on to the most exaggerated interpretations of Biblical quotes. In all the years that I have been debating in the Forum no-one has ever made the claims about Christianity keeping people in the dark about good and bad. If this is Islamic mainstream thinking then it would have been raised years ago and at intervals since but it has not.

Please let me have quotes from the New Testament, Jesus, on this matter to support your claims.

sum

frankie
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Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: Mohammed the borrower

Post by frankie »

Eagle wrote:@sum

The "dim remnants of truth" referred to in the biblical account of creation are the ones that parallel with the last revelation, where it states that the primary purpose for which Adam and Eve were created, was to fill the earth and rule over the living creatures Gen1:28-29,2:5. They were created from ground of the earth (not heaven) Gen2:7-8. Adam and Eve's "immortality" was tied to eating from the Tree of Life, which they could freely access as the Garden of Eden's caretakers Gen2:15-17. Since their "immortality" was conditioned on their staying in the Garden of Eden, it means that they were actually mortal human beings who were able to benefit from the priviledge of eating the fruit of the Tree of Life to stay alive indefinitely. Their transgression, marked by the eating from the tree of knowledge which imbued them with consciousness of both good and evil resulted in their expulsion from the Garden of Eden and with that expulsion, their ability to eat from the fruit of the Tree of Life stopped. Had they kept eating from the tree of life the result could have been that spiritualy degenerate people and criminals might live forever.

Thus the result of their expulsion is that they eventually died. As already said, despite certain important variations, many fundamental aspects remain in the HB and parallel with the Quranic account, including the fact that it must have been God's plan from the beginning to ultimately place mankind on the earth, as His vicegerents. The main areas where the Quran disagrees with the Tanakh is that in the latter, the knowledge of good and evil were concealed from man in a "tree of knowledge" whereas the Quran clearly states that this spiritual feature is ingrained and hardwired in man.

According to the interpolated HB, when man ate from the tree of the knowledge of good an evil, man "became like one of us", against God's will and desire. According to the Quran, God "breathed into man of his spirit" and in sura Shams, defines it as "He inspired the soul with the knowledge of evil and good", meaning he was meant to "become like us". The HB still contains elements of this reality when it states that man was created in the "image of God".
Eagle
“As already said, despite certain important variations, many fundamental aspects remain in the HB and parallel with the Quranic account,”
The Quran should agree with the Bible exactly if it were from the same god,but it does not agree, which means the god of the Quran cannot be the God of the Bible.

If Islam were an Abrahamic faith, as it claims to be, the story of creation should match the Bible’s version, but it doesn’t, it is a variation of it.

The Bible teaches that Adam and Eve sinned against God whilst living on the earth; it is this “original sin “which separated mankind from God, which in turn demanded a Saviour to reconcile mankind back to God, this Saviour was Jesus, the Messiah.

The Quran rejects the Bible’s version completely, it teaches that Adam and Eve were not on earth when they sinned against God, they were already in paradise, but Allah forgave them and sent them to live on earth without reparation, no need for a Saviour, even though the Quran teaches sin is a violation against Allah, but it is the definition of sin in Islam, which is in direct opposition to how the Bible views sin.

Btw I am still waiting for answers from you on two points raised on other discussions; please have the courtesy to reply to them.

Eagle
Posts: 2093
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:37 pm

Re: Mohammed the borrower

Post by Eagle »

@sum

Christianity, which is assumed to be Jesus' teachings, includes the HB with all of its contents, as well as the account of creation and the divine will to keep humanity in the dark in regards to moral consciousness.

That theme is echoed in the Greek Testament of course, including in Jesus' words. He accuses the stubborn Pharisees who could not see the truth despite his repeated warnings Jn8:42-49, thanks God for obscuring the truth to this type of repeated transgressors who are foreordained to have their hearts hardenned Rom9:8-23,Ex4:21,Deut2:26-35 and who will be made delusional in order to be deceived through lies
Matt11:20-25"Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not..Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent"
2Thess2:10-13"and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness".
This is in line with the Hebrew Bible's statements the likes of
Jer10:23"people's lives are not their own, it is not for them to direct their steps"
although other passages clearly comply with the notion of freewill and moral accountability.

Besides distancing himself from the spiritually unclean while calling them dogs and pigs Matt7:6, Jesus also purposely spoke to the spiritually dead, as the ones alluded to above, in parables, knowing that however clear his language is they will not understand him, thus conforming the prophecy of Isaiah according to which a category of transgressors will never be spiritually receptive
Mk4:10-12,Matt13:13-15"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed...lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them".
Jesus did not love and pray for these "enemies", he on the contrary kept them far from the truth, in line with David who "hated" the lame and blind Jebusites 2Sam5:8.

Jesus makes it explicit in that statement that he keeps speaking in parables to the spiritually blind "in order that" they do not understand "otherwise they might turn and be forgiven". He uses parables to teach and lead astray at the same time. It teaches his followers and confuses his rejecters and he purposely continues in this manner "otherwise" the rejecters might turn and repent, meaning he could have taught them in another manner than in parables but didnt, to achieve a certain objective. Note Jesus is quoting Isaiah6's prophecy where YHWH is sending Isaiah to some sinful nation to fortell their doom and prior to this these people have their spiritual senses sealed as a punishment and Isaiah is to further confuse them (make the heart...) "otherwise" they might mend their ways. It is in this sense that Jesus in Matt13 is referencing Isaiah, hence the words that the prophecy is fulfilled in his contemporaries. He was confronted to people whose spiritual senses were sealed by God as a punishment as he stated earlier and to fulfill Isaiah's text he does like him, confusing them as a form of wordly punishment for their rejection of him, through parables "otherwise" they might get a chance at turning back and repenting. Isa6 is a direct action by YHWH preventing people from the right path as He is alleged to have done to Pharao to whom Moses was sent with miracles but with a clear purpose; to cause God -in answer to Pharao's denial of the miracle- to unleash His series of punishements on Egypt and consequently free the enslaved Israelites. This is acccording to the principles that YHWH disposes as He wills of the hearts of the people, and more particularily of nations' leaders
Prov21:1"A king's heart is like rivulets of water in the Lord's hand; wherever He wishes, He turns it".

frankie
Posts: 2608
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: Mohammed the borrower

Post by frankie »

Eagle wrote:@sum

Christianity, which is assumed to be Jesus' teachings, includes the HB with all of its contents, as well as the account of creation and the divine will to keep humanity in the dark in regards to moral consciousness.

That theme is echoed in the Greek Testament of course, including in Jesus' words. He accuses the stubborn Pharisees who could not see the truth despite his repeated warnings Jn8:42-49, thanks God for obscuring the truth to this type of repeated transgressors who are foreordained to have their hearts hardenned Rom9:8-23,Ex4:21,Deut2:26-35 and who will be made delusional in order to be deceived through lies
Matt11:20-25"Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not..Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent"
2Thess2:10-13"and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness".
This is in line with the Hebrew Bible's statements the likes of
Jer10:23"people's lives are not their own, it is not for them to direct their steps"
although other passages clearly comply with the notion of freewill and moral accountability.

Besides distancing himself from the spiritually unclean while calling them dogs and pigs Matt7:6, Jesus also purposely spoke to the spiritually dead, as the ones alluded to above, in parables, knowing that however clear his language is they will not understand him, thus conforming the prophecy of Isaiah according to which a category of transgressors will never be spiritually receptive
Mk4:10-12,Matt13:13-15"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed...lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them".
Jesus did not love and pray for these "enemies", he on the contrary kept them far from the truth, in line with David who "hated" the lame and blind Jebusites 2Sam5:8.

Jesus makes it explicit in that statement that he keeps speaking in parables to the spiritually blind "in order that" they do not understand "otherwise they might turn and be forgiven". He uses parables to teach and lead astray at the same time. It teaches his followers and confuses his rejecters and he purposely continues in this manner "otherwise" the rejecters might turn and repent, meaning he could have taught them in another manner than in parables but didnt, to achieve a certain objective. Note Jesus is quoting Isaiah6's prophecy where YHWH is sending Isaiah to some sinful nation to fortell their doom and prior to this these people have their spiritual senses sealed as a punishment and Isaiah is to further confuse them (make the heart...) "otherwise" they might mend their ways. It is in this sense that Jesus in Matt13 is referencing Isaiah, hence the words that the prophecy is fulfilled in his contemporaries. He was confronted to people whose spiritual senses were sealed by God as a punishment as he stated earlier and to fulfill Isaiah's text he does like him, confusing them as a form of wordly punishment for their rejection of him, through parables "otherwise" they might get a chance at turning back and repenting. Isa6 is a direct action by YHWH preventing people from the right path as He is alleged to have done to Pharao to whom Moses was sent with miracles but with a clear purpose; to cause God -in answer to Pharao's denial of the miracle- to unleash His series of punishements on Egypt and consequently free the enslaved Israelites. This is acccording to the principles that YHWH disposes as He wills of the hearts of the people, and more particularily of nations' leaders
Prov21:1"A king's heart is like rivulets of water in the Lord's hand; wherever He wishes, He turns it".

Eagle

That theme is echoed in the Greek Testament of course, including in Jesus' words. He accuses the stubborn Pharisees who could not see the truth despite his repeated warnings Jn8:42-49,
The truth Jesus is talking about is not the same truth that is found in Islam, as you so kindly point out with citing John 8:42-49 as evidence.

Not only does Jesus speak the truth, He claims to be the Truth, and cites Himself as the only way to the Father, which again Islam rejects, as Allah is a father to no one, he has no son.

John 14:6
6Jesus answered, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.


"The truth" according to Islam is the Quran, which denies what the Bible says, it denies Jesus’ divinity, even though He was put to death by admitting His divinity, it denies His crucifixion, even though this is a proven historical fact, it denies His resurrection, even though that this is the very catalyst that caused the Christian faith to get established.

If Jesus did not speak the truth and lied, then this would immediately disqualify Him as a prophet of Islam, even though the Quran claims Jesus was born sinless.

What you have to decide is, who is the most truthful here, your god Allah who is in denial of what he allegedly revealed previously, by rejecting what His alleged prophet Jesus claimed, or Jesus Himself, a sinless prophet of Islam, who by being a sinless prophet, could not lie.

Eagle
Posts: 2093
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:37 pm

Re: Mohammed the borrower

Post by Eagle »

"The way" of Jesus Jn14:6 is outlined in Lk10:25-28 where he commands strict observance of Jewish laws. In that passage from Luke he is asked about the conditions of salvation and the questionner quotes from Lev19 which details certains laws like the observence of the sabbath and admonishes to
"Keep all my decrees and all my laws and follow them. I am the LORD"
and Deut6 which speaks of loving the One God and obeying His commandements
"keep the commands of the LORD your God and the stipulations and decrees he has given you. Do what is right and good in the LORD's sight..obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness".
Consequently the Nazarenes, Jesus' early group of small band of followers, observed all Jewish customs outlined in the Torah but differed from Jews in that they recognized Jesus as the Messiah. The Nazarenes grew among the Israelites but persecutions forced them to go into hiding, with Paul playing a central role in their persecution prior to his convertion.

After he joined their ranks, he started influencing the group leaders, namely Peter and James, to reach out to Gentiles. With more non-Jews entering the fold, many Jewish customs were abandonned Acts15:1-29 and the Nazarenes who were centered in Jerusalem gradually became isolated from the main Christian movement who started looking up to Paul for leadership, instead of Jesus' brother James, a strict observer of Jewish Law and considered as Jesus' successor in non-canonical Gospels. With the establishment of Christianity as a state religion in Rome by Constantine in the 4th century, they definetly fled Jerusalem, in the surrounding deserts and managed to survive outside Palestine as they are mentionned by Jerome upto 380AD to have lived in the Syrian desert. Among them the Ebionites (who claimed to descend from the original Jewish disciples led by James) and Elchasites who rejected Paul as a charlatan and his teachings as falsehood, as well as the Zadokites, Essenes, Rechabites, Sabeans, Mandaeans etc. They had their own writing which they considered scripture, composed of an oral tradition attributed to Jesus, and some HB books. Their writings are known, among others as Gospel of the Nazareans, Gospel of the Hebrews and Gospel of the Ebionites. They would later write that Paul was a false apostle who taught heresy based on the fact he was a failed convert who was disappointed with Judaism and therefore motivated to teach against its laws (circumcision, kashrut, etc..). As brieflyput by well known ex-evangelical Biblical scholar Bart Ehrman
"one of the competing groups in Christianity suceeded in overwhelming all others. This group gained more converts than its opponents and managed to relegate all its competitors to the margins. This group decided what the Church’s organizational structure would be. It decided which creeds Christians would recite. And it decided which books would be accepted as Scripture. This was the group Iraeneus belonged, as did other figures well known to scholars of second- and third-century Christianity, such as Justin Martyr and Tertullian. This group became “orthodox,” and once it had sealed its victory over all its opponents, it rewrote the history of engagement — claiming that it had always been the majority opinion of Christianity, that its views had always been the views of the apostolic churches and of the apostles, that its creeds were rooted directly in the teachings of Jesus. The books that it accepted as Scripture proved the point, for Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John all tell the story as proto-orthodox had grown accustomed to hearing it".

frankie
Posts: 2608
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: Mohammed the borrower

Post by frankie »

Eagle wrote:"The way" of Jesus Jn14:6 is outlined in Lk10:25-28 where he commands strict observance of Jewish laws. In that passage from Luke he is asked about the conditions of salvation and the questionner quotes from Lev19 which details certains laws like the observence of the sabbath and admonishes to
"Keep all my decrees and all my laws and follow them. I am the LORD"
and Deut6 which speaks of loving the One God and obeying His commandements
"keep the commands of the LORD your God and the stipulations and decrees he has given you. Do what is right and good in the LORD's sight..obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness".
Consequently the Nazarenes, Jesus' early group of small band of followers, observed all Jewish customs outlined in the Torah but differed from Jews in that they recognized Jesus as the Messiah. The Nazarenes grew among the Israelites but persecutions forced them to go into hiding, with Paul playing a central role in their persecution prior to his convertion.

After he joined their ranks, he started influencing the group leaders, namely Peter and James, to reach out to Gentiles. With more non-Jews entering the fold, many Jewish customs were abandonned Acts15:1-29 and the Nazarenes who were centered in Jerusalem gradually became isolated from the main Christian movement who started looking up to Paul for leadership, instead of Jesus' brother James, a strict observer of Jewish Law and considered as Jesus' successor in non-canonical Gospels. With the establishment of Christianity as a state religion in Rome by Constantine in the 4th century, they definetly fled Jerusalem, in the surrounding deserts and managed to survive outside Palestine as they are mentionned by Jerome upto 380AD to have lived in the Syrian desert. Among them the Ebionites (who claimed to descend from the original Jewish disciples led by James) and Elchasites who rejected Paul as a charlatan and his teachings as falsehood, as well as the Zadokites, Essenes, Rechabites, Sabeans, Mandaeans etc. They had their own writing which they considered scripture, composed of an oral tradition attributed to Jesus, and some HB books. Their writings are known, among others as Gospel of the Nazareans, Gospel of the Hebrews and Gospel of the Ebionites. They would later write that Paul was a false apostle who taught heresy based on the fact he was a failed convert who was disappointed with Judaism and therefore motivated to teach against its laws (circumcision, kashrut, etc..). As brieflyput by well known ex-evangelical Biblical scholar Bart Ehrman
"one of the competing groups in Christianity suceeded in overwhelming all others. This group gained more converts than its opponents and managed to relegate all its competitors to the margins. This group decided what the Church’s organizational structure would be. It decided which creeds Christians would recite. And it decided which books would be accepted as Scripture. This was the group Iraeneus belonged, as did other figures well known to scholars of second- and third-century Christianity, such as Justin Martyr and Tertullian. This group became “orthodox,” and once it had sealed its victory over all its opponents, it rewrote the history of engagement — claiming that it had always been the majority opinion of Christianity, that its views had always been the views of the apostolic churches and of the apostles, that its creeds were rooted directly in the teachings of Jesus. The books that it accepted as Scripture proved the point, for Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John all tell the story as proto-orthodox had grown accustomed to hearing it".
Eagle
The way" of Jesus Jn14:6 is outlined in Lk10:25-28 where he commands strict observance of Jewish laws
Incorrect, Jesus affirms the Laws of God, by reciting a parable outling the basis of God’s Laws which is LOVE, love of ALL people regardless of faith, confirmed by Jesus in this same verse you cite.
Jesus remonstrates with the teachers of the Law on this very subject, who by their strict( observance) interpretation of the Jewish laws, heaped burdensome man made laws upon their listeners, leading themselves and others away from the truth of what the commands of God are actually based upon,i.e.LOVE.

Luke 10:25-28
25 And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And he said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.”


This type of LOVE is anathema in Islamic doctrine, as Allah does not “love unbelievers “he only “loves “Muslims, which should not be the case if Allah was the God of the Bible.

Allah changed what he allegedly revealed previously, he changed the command to love all people as yourself, to love only Muslims.

Allah proves again not to be the god he claims to be, turning the Quran into a manmade book, not a god made book.

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