The barrier of Dhul Qarnayn

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Eagle
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The barrier of Dhul Qarnayn

Post by Eagle »

There is a recurrent theme in the Quran concerning the day of resurrection, stressing that no matter who, where and in which condition, all those entities meant to be gathered at the plain of resurrection will be forcefully humbled and assembled before their creator.

This forceful gathering, the "kneeling" of every nation 45:28, is particularly pictured through the story of Gog and Magog.

They were an ungodly people who terrorized those weaker than them and the Prophet-King Dhul Qarnayn managed to contain them behind a metal wall, of iron and copper, to protect his subjects. Rulers of all times built barriers and still do today, to protect their people from outside enemies and invasions. The prophet-king Dhul Qarnayn was no exception and as a sign of his noble character, he regarded it as an unconditional duty of his to protect his subjects
18:94-7"Shall we then pay you a tribute on condition that you should raise a barrier between us and them? He said: That in which my Lord has established me is better, therefore you only help me with workers, I will make a fortified barrier between you and them".
After having succesfuly done so, instead of pronouncing his own greatness as Kings normally do, this Noble and Pious King tells the people that all things will eventually crumble when their appointed time comes, as stated in the sura's beginning as well as often repeated elsewhere in the Quran, including his own monumental achievements which are in fact not really his, but the result of God's mercy upon him
18:98"He said: This is a mercy from my Lord, but when the promise of my Lord comes to pass He will make it level with the ground".
The whole sura concludes with a reminder of such principle which must be impressed in the mind of the God-conscious
"they whose labor is lost in this world's life and they think that they are well versed in skill of the work of hands. These are they who disbelieve in the communications of their Lord and His meeting, so their deeds become null"
. Since all things, even the most monumental constructions are eventually reduced to dust and levelled with the ground as stated by Dhul Qarnayn in the verses, not finding any trace of it today or its definite location agrees with Dhul Qarnayn's statement concerning its inevitable end.

The more profound message is that escaping that rampart, something that is bound to happen as per Dhul Qarnayn's words given the temporary nature of the structure, does not mean that one can escape God's justice, including the marauding barbaric tribes of Gog and Magog, hence the following statement from God about the Day of Judgement
18:99"And We will leave some of them on that day surge against others (like waves); and the trumpet will be blown, so We will gather them in gathering".
In this recurrent depiction of Judgement day, the masses are gathered regardless of their differences, crawling over one another to answer the call of the trumpet to be judged by the Lord, such that it will look like wave upon wave. At that same time that the towns who otherwise would never return, will be brought back from their death to answer to the call, the Gog and Magog will also be raised and let loose to descend from every elevation since all these natural places of refuge once particularly used by these plunderers will be destroyed
20:105-7,21:95-7"And it is binding on a town which We destroy that they shall not return. Until when Gog and Magog are let loose and they shall descend from every elevated place. And the true promise shall draw nigh, then lo! the eyes of those who disbelieved shall be fixedly open: O woe to us! surely we were in a state of heedlessness as to this; nay, we were unjust"
.
A general state of upheaval is being described in both these passages from suras 18 and 21, with Gog and Magog, a people once known for being nomadic, uncivilized and ungodly putting their lifestyle aside, coming irresistibly together with all of humanity, surging like waves upon waves towards their final reckoning.

Nothing is said in sura 21 about the necessity for a wall to be destroyed for them to come out since it obviously is talking of judgement day and their forceful gathering with all humanity, ie the previously destroyed towns have now returned, and in sura 18 no connection exists between the surging of Gog and Magog, along with all of humanity to answer the call of judgement (which is God's statement), and the temporary nature of the wall spoken of by Dhul Qarnayn to his direct addressees.

The mention of Gog and Magog and the towns in the context of resurrection and judgement clearly is meant at picturing the fact that people will be brought back to God from wherever they might be, whether they lead a sedentary or nomadic and untamed lifestyle.

As a side note, after the Gog and Magog's rise, the "drawing nigh" of God's true promise made to the disbelievers spoken of in 21:97 is in reference to the now inevitable prospect of punishement they were promised in this world and to which they were heedless, their soon hurling in hell spoken of in the following verse after their judgement 21:98, as they look on with terror inside the now opened gates of hellfire that is brought near to those concerned 18:100,26:91,79:36.

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manfred
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Re: The barrier of Dhul Qarnayn

Post by manfred »

So, no picture, I see...

Instead a convoluted interpretation of something the Qur'an undoubtedly presents as a historical fact. WHERE IS THE BARRIER?
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Fernando
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Re: The barrier of Dhul Qarnayn

Post by Fernando »

manfred wrote:So, no picture, I see...

Instead a convoluted interpretation of something the Qur'an undoubtedly presents as a historical fact. WHERE IS THE BARRIER?
And while you're looking for a picture, what accounts of its real existance and whereabouts have you got to guide you?
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Eagle
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Re: The barrier of Dhul Qarnayn

Post by Eagle »

Assuming it isnt mentionned in present day available historical records how does that preclude it has once existed before it got levelled with the ground as stated vy Dhul Qarnayn. Is every construction in the history of mankind regardless of its size known, written in records or memorized throughout time

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manfred
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Re: The barrier of Dhul Qarnayn

Post by manfred »

I see, so it has been "levelled" now.... so no ruins at all? And what about this apocalypse scenario you describe? So why has the world not ended yet? So all hell is let loose and the trumpet sounded, right? Strange, only you noticed....

The fact is that story is also something Mohammed "borrowed" from ancient legends... apart for the Alexander Romance, it is also something Josephus talked about.
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Eagle
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Re: The barrier of Dhul Qarnayn

Post by Eagle »

Levelled with the ground as stated by Dhul Qarnayn, independently of any so called apocalypse. The gathering of Gog and Magog along with all nations brought back from death occurs on the day of judgement.

Sure Josephus speaks of a wall
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18210&start=80#p238623" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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manfred
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Re: The barrier of Dhul Qarnayn

Post by manfred »

ah... independently .... right ... from the Qur'an too, not only from your own comments at the start?

"They said: "O Dhu al Qarnayn! The Gog and Magog people do great mischief on earth: Shall we then render thee tribute in order that thou mightest erect a barrier between them?...Bring me blocks of iron at length, when he had filled up the space between the two steep mountainsides, He said, `Blow with your bellows', then when he had made it red as fire, he said: `Bring me, that I may pour over it, molten lead.' thus were they made powerless to scale it or to dig through it. he said this: `this is a mercy from my Lord: but when the promise of my Lord comes to pass, he will make it into dust; and the promise of my Lord is true. On that day we shall leave them to surge like waves on one another; the trumpet will be blown, and we shall collect them together. And we shall present hell that day for unbelievers to see, all spread out.'"

Qur'an 18 94-100

So if barrier is no longer there, I must have missed "hell" being shown to me, and even though I have bad eye sight, I have good hearing, but I missed the trumpet too...
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Eagle
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Re: The barrier of Dhul Qarnayn

Post by Eagle »

The explanation to the above was apparently missed, here again, with colors to facilitate;
Nothing is said in sura 21 about the necessity for a wall to be destroyed for them to come out since it obviously is talking of judgement day and their forceful gathering with all humanity, ie the previously destroyed towns have now returned, and in sura 18 no connection exists between the surging of Gog and Magog, along with all of humanity to answer the call of judgement (which is God's statement), and the temporary nature of the wall spoken of by Dhul Qarnayn to his direct addressees.

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manfred
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Re: The barrier of Dhul Qarnayn

Post by manfred »

eagle, whne it comes to what the Qur'an says, I read the text. I don't ask you. It is very clear that the fall of the gate to gog and magog is seen as an apocalyptic, end of times, event in the Qur'an. So you decide, either it is still standing,then picture please, or it has fallen then explain why I am not in Islamic hell yet, and you, presumably fornicating with 70 virgins...
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Eagle
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Re: The barrier of Dhul Qarnayn

Post by Eagle »

Reading is one thing, understanding is another.

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manfred
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Re: The barrier of Dhul Qarnayn

Post by manfred »

Oh I understand all right, a lot better than you.
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Eagle
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Re: The barrier of Dhul Qarnayn

Post by Eagle »

How is your understanding correct when you were unable to distinguish the 2 speakers of the passage

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manfred
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Re: The barrier of Dhul Qarnayn

Post by manfred »

WOW, you read minds over the internet!!! But your radar has gone wrong, anyone can see the dialogue. And that does not distract at all from the fact that the fall of the gate is a "sign" of judgement day.

If you like a good laugh, have a look here:

https://www.al-islam.org/day-of-judgeme ... -and-magog" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I find it ironic that Muslims call those who display the truth "kafir", one who covers up, but they themselves get frantically busy covering up for they hero Mohammed, making, like you, the daftest claims in the process.

Talking about frantic... It's eid, so say sorry to your mother in law, make yourself sick on cookies, and do whatever else is the custom.

Did you pay zakat? Isis needs more ammunition....
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Eagle
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Re: The barrier of Dhul Qarnayn

Post by Eagle »

Still no proper response. There are 2 speakers in the passage and each is talking of something else, Dhul Qarnayn describes the temporary nature of the wall and God speaks of the gathering of the unbelievers, including Gog and Magog on the day of judgement.

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manfred
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Re: The barrier of Dhul Qarnayn

Post by manfred »

LOL, so the two things are not connected ? really? I suppose you mean the curious change from the "he" to "we"... That is a common thing in the Qur'an, sometimes Mohammed forgets his story line, sometimes he and Allah even speak apparently interchangeably. As I said before, it does not make a difference to what it says. Let's assume it was Dhul Qarnayn who said
this is a mercy from my Lord: but when the promise of my Lord comes to pass, he will make it into dust; and the promise of my Lord is true.
The Muslim(?) Alexander thanks Allah for the barrier, and says one day it will disappear.

If we then assume that the change of the person to "we" as suggesting Allah wants to say a few words too, we have
On that day we shall leave them to surge like waves on one another; the trumpet will be blown, and we shall collect them together. And we shall present hell that day for unbelievers to see, all spread out.
So, does that mean the two bits have no connection?

"ON THAT DAY" is the connection. The statement that the barrier is falling is directly referred to, picked up and expanded. When the wall is falling, on that day, certain things will happen. It says.

You said it has fallen. So did Allah lie? Why is hell not visible and spread out? Has the trumpet of judgement day sounded?

I gave you a link from an Islamic website that confirms that this passage is about judgement day, and that is something you also said.

So you cannot have both ways. If the barrier is no longer there then
a) judgement day has happened but apparently by-passed the world.
b) judgement day has not happened and the statement you ascribe to Allah is a lie.

If the barrier is still there,
then provide a picture.
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manfred
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Re: The barrier of Dhul Qarnayn

Post by manfred »

All all these difficulties arise why? Mohammed saw a need to impress some Jewish people, but, as he got burnt before, he knew he needed to pick some stories as new "revelations" not from Jewish texts. So he picked some Hellenistic folk tales instead.
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Eagle
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Re: The barrier of Dhul Qarnayn

Post by Eagle »

There is no correlation between the destruction of the wall and the gathering of Gog and Magog. In one verse the noble prophet Dhul Qarnayn says the barrier containing Gog and Magog will eventually crumble without saying anything of what shall occur next. The following verse is a leap in time, as statement from God, a depiction of the day of judgement is made with the return of the unbelievers for judgement as reflected in sura 21. Then and only then the Gog and Magog will be gathered.

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manfred
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Re: The barrier of Dhul Qarnayn

Post by manfred »

Eagle wrote:There is no correlation between the destruction of the wall and the gathering of Gog and Magog. In one verse the noble prophet Dhul Qarnayn says the barrier containing Gog and Magog will eventually crumble without saying anything of what shall occur next. The following verse is a leap in time, as statement from God, a depiction of the day of judgement is made with the return of the unbelievers for judgement as reflected in sura 21. Then and only then the Gog and Magog will be gathered.

Eagle please stop treating people as idiots. Look at the text.

Muslim Alexander says
this is a mercy from my Lord: but when the promise of my Lord comes to pass, he will make it into dust; and the promise of my Lord is true.
and then
On that day we shall leave them to surge like waves on one another; the trumpet will be blown, and we shall collect them together. And we shall present hell that day for unbelievers to see, all spread out.

"On that day" - what day? The one just mentioned, obviously, there is no other way of reading this.

There is no "leap in time"... amazing how far you are willing to twist a simple passage. In fact, as you know perfectly well, that is how all Muslims understand it, and always have.
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Eagle
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Re: The barrier of Dhul Qarnayn

Post by Eagle »

"That day" is one where the unbelievers will be brought back for judgement as stressed in sura 18, THAT is the precondition for the gathering of Gog and Magog as plainly and emphatically stated in sura 21.

1) return of the destryed towns
2) surging of the Gog and Magog

Not in one single instance is it said that a wall needs to be destryed for the Magog to come forth. Nowhere does the prophet Dhul Qarnayn say that the crumbling of the wall will happen on a single specific day.

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manfred
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Re: The barrier of Dhul Qarnayn

Post by manfred »

Oh give it a rest, that is just bunk. The structure is simple and clear. Anyone can see for himself.

So, no barrier, but also no judgement day, and no reasonable explanation from Eagle.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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