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What is the default relationship of muslims to non-muslims?

PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:11 am
by sum
I think that this is a fundamental issue and has enormous implications for the whole of mankind.

I maintain that the fundamental relationship is based on the hatred and enmity of muslims towards non-mulims as Koran 60:4 dictates.

If this is the case then social cohesion between muslims and non-muslims is impossible and begs the question of why we permit muslim immigration which only causes unbreachable divisions in society.

Does anyone disagree?

sum

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:16 pm
by Garudaman
QS. 60:9. Allah only forbids you from those who fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes and aid in your expulsion - [forbids] that you make allies of them. And whoever makes allies of them, then it is those who are the wrongdoers.

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:53 pm
by sum
Hello Garudaman

It appears that what Allah`s right hand says does not know what his left hand says. Koran 60:4 is very clear and very specific. As long as you remain a non-muslim and reject Allah then muslims are to hold hatred and enmity towards you. There are no qualifications in this verse.

Allah then introduces another verse which has qualifications and is at variance with Koran 60:4. Does Allah not realise what a mess he is making of his final guidance?

If Allah regards non-muslims as "...the vilest of all creatures" then it adds support to Koran 60:4.

Your quote -
QS. 60:9. Allah only forbids you from those who fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes and aid in your expulsion - [forbids] that you make allies of them. And whoever makes allies of them, then it is those who are the wrongdoers.

How does Islam - Allah - regard those who do not fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes and aid in your expulsion? Does Allah teach friendship with these non-muslims?

If Allah regards me as the vilest of creatures, do you?

sum

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:07 pm
by Garudaman
sum wrote:Koran 60:4 is very clear and very specific

"there has appeared between us and you animosity and hatred forever until you believe in Allah alone" is still multi-interpretation, you can interpretate it :
1. the animosity and the hatred is happen because they dont believe in God alone.
2. the animosity and the hatred is happen because they fight muslim because muslim believe in God alone, thus when they believe in God alone, they wont fight muslim anymore.

sum wrote:If Allah regards non-muslims as "...the vilest of all creatures" then it adds support to Koran 60:4.

if that "vilest of all creatures" are in sense of "the most immoral/the greatest sin/deserve hell", then thats not support your interpretation, & kafir doesnt mean non muslim, but denier : viewtopic.php?f=22&t=14704&p=194459#p194459

sum wrote:How does Islam - Allah - regard those who do not fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes and aid in your expulsion? Does Allah teach friendship with these non-muslims?

yes, not only teach it but also command it, QS. 28:77, QS. 4:36, QS. 60:8-9.

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:25 pm
by sum
Hello Garudaman

Your quote -
"there has appeared between us and you animosity and hatred forever until you believe in Allah alone" is still multi-interpretation, you can interpretate it :
1. the animosity and the hatred is happen because they dont believe in God alone.
2. the animosity and the hatred is happen because they fight muslim because muslim believe in God alone, thus when they believe in God alone, they wont fight muslim anymore.


With your quote you have confirmed my comment that Allah has made a real pig`s ear of making himself clear. This is useless guidance as you can take your pick - amazing. I am absolutely certain that you could make far better guidance with far more clarity and no ambiguity. Do you agree?

I am an atheist who lives by the Golden Rule. I reject the concept of Allah who I regard as an invention of the non-prophet Muhammad.

Am I the vilest of all creatures according to the Koran and do you regard me as the vilest of all creatures?

sum

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:24 am
by Garudaman
sum wrote:Hello Garudaman

Your quote -
"there has appeared between us and you animosity and hatred forever until you believe in Allah alone" is still multi-interpretation, you can interpretate it :
1. the animosity and the hatred is happen because they dont believe in God alone.
2. the animosity and the hatred is happen because they fight muslim because muslim believe in God alone, thus when they believe in God alone, they wont fight muslim anymore.


With your quote you have confirmed my comment that Allah has made a real pig`s ear of making himself clear.

you just need to read till QS. 60:9 or five verses more to get the whole sentence/context, how hard is that?

sum wrote:I am an atheist who lives by the Golden Rule.

without the fear to God, how long you will keep that principe, in condition when all laws didnt applied anymore, & all other peoples no longer keep that principe?

sum wrote:Am I the vilest of all creatures according to the Koran and do you regard me as the vilest of all creatures?

with your not enough intelligence for know God, i doubt the Quran considered you as kafir/denier!

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:47 am
by sum
Hello Garudaman

You did not respond to my question - please do so.
I reject the concept of Allah who I regard as an invention of the non-prophet Muhammad.

Does this make me the vilest of all creatures according to Allah in the Koran and do you regard me as the vilest of all creatures?

sum

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:02 pm
by Hombre
Garudaman wrote:QS. 60:9. Allah only forbids you from those who fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes and aid in your expulsion - [forbids] that you make allies of them. And whoever makes allies of them, then it is those who are the wrongdoers.
Oy Vey!!! :no1:

Now, my good man, you tell me - how many innocent people throughout the Arabian region were massacred, or forced to convert to Islam?. Their respective languages, cultural and histories - all were wiped out by Muhammad. These people were living their lives in peace and harmony.

Therefore, according to your interpretation of Quran's Sura 60.9, Muslim are the ones who had strayed from this sura - or the whole Quran is one big fat lie, designed to dup gullible to believe in Islam and Quran as words of God with questionable ethics and character.

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:28 am
by Garudaman
sum wrote:Hello Garudaman

You did not respond to my question - please do so.
I reject the concept of Allah who I regard as an invention of the non-prophet Muhammad.

Does this make me the vilest of all creatures according to Allah in the Koran and do you regard me as the vilest of all creatures?

sum

im already answered it by the answer : your question is wrong, because kafir is doesnt mean rejecter, but denier! viewtopic.php?f=22&t=14704&p=194459#p194459

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:56 pm
by sum
Hello Garudaman

You are running away from a difficult question.

I am both a rejecter and denier as well as how I have already described myself and so do YOU agree that I am the vilest of all creatures?

Do you have an opinion or are you still going to run away?

Please answer my question.

sum

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:09 pm
by Garudaman
did you know that God is exist? answer that question, & i will explain to you, what the meaning of deny!

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:36 pm
by Eagle
Linguistically, the term kafir in the Quranic language carries a wide range of understanding, from "non believer" to "active enemy of Allah" to "non adherer to the law of Allah, although not necessarily out of the fold of Islam" as in 5:47"And whoever does not judge by what Allah brought down, then those are the kafirun".

The common denominator is that the kafir is someone that willingly denies, conceals the truth and is so adamant to remain in his behavior that should even the best preacher call him to reform, he will not change his ways 2:6"Surely those who kafaru, it being alike to them whether you warn them, or do not warn them, will not yu'minun/safely trust (in the message)".

Here it must be noted, that the kafir label is most often wrongly assumed as generaly refering to all non Muslims yet the Quran itself in many places states that this cannot be the case. It does so, among other things, by exposing the limited knowledge of humans when they begin assuming and conjecturing on other people's spiritual condition. Towards the end of the Prophet's mission when it was thought that a clear line had been drawn between followers and rejecters of Islam, as a major conflict was about to erupt between the Muslims and the Meccans, God states that had it not been for Him withholding their hands from fighting, many Muslims in what was assumed to be the disbelieving camp would have been killed by Muslims 48:25. In other places it quotes members of Jewish and Christian communities joining Islam during their declaration of faith, saying that 28:53"We believe in it surely it is the truth from our Lord; surely we were submitters before this". There are several such verses, and when one understands the fact that a kafir, one whose spirituality is sealed in Quran terminology is one bent on a willful repetitive misbehavior, then such label cannot be used haphazardly on anyone outside the fold of Islam.

In 57:20 the tiller of the soil is called (without any pejorative implication) kafir "one who covers" i.e., the sown seed with earth, just as the night is spoken of as having "covered" (kafara) the earth with darkness or Allah covering the sins of those who will enter heaven 48:5. In their abstract sense, and as already noted above, both the verb and the nouns derived from it have a connotation of "concealing" something that exists as Allah says when He covers/kafara the evil deeds of the people 5:65. When used for someone it has the connotation of "denying" something that is true. It relates to man's deliberate suppression of his inborn cognition of God's existence 7:172, acting against his spiritual senses 76:2,46:26 and innate understanding of good and evil 91:7-8.

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:42 pm
by Eagle
Regarding the golden rule, even although the Quran does not pronounce an abstract concept like “love your neighbour”, it does however articulate its reality and applications in a much more comprehensive manner.

Muslims must treat others, whether close or far "neighbors", from one's own people or not, as they themselves would like to be treated as well as how thhey would like others to treat their own abandonned relatives 4:9,36,42:23,83:1-6 and even better yet in order to create a positive change even in one's ennemy 41:34,59:9. Often time belief in the One God and justice in all dealings between man and man are placed together as the twin postulates of all righteousness.

As they display their humanity and empathy, they should do it selflessly, not expecting any favor in return while lending a helpful ear to any type of "asker" 74:6,93:10.

This comprehensive attitude enjoined in the Quran, along with other such directives, takes the principle of the "golden rule" to new heights and should be labelled the "diamond rule".

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:54 pm
by Eagle
The use of degrading metaphors to describe the spiritually and morally backrupt is common to all scriptures and prophets, not the least of them Jesus.

For example when the Jews neglect the Torah which they claim to uphold and practice 62:5, the Quran compares them to donkeys that carry a load while totally unaware of its contents. Donkeys merely feel the burden. It is not different for them to carry rocks and wood or books containing the most precise secrets of Creation and the most fruitful lessons for a better life, as the Quran often describes the previous revelations. The Hebrew Bible itself, quoting the prophet Isaiah, reduces them to lower than donkeys in the times when the nation had almost reached total spiritual collapse Isa1:3 and Malachi echoes how lowly and contemptible they were made to be in the eyes of the whole world for having forsaken the Torah Malachi2:8-9. Besides talking of them as a "useless ustensil" in reference to their loss of independance among the nations while they benefited from divine immunity as long as they remained on the straight path, the prophet Hosea similarily compares them to wandering wild donkeys in foreign land, in search of alliances with the pagans Hos8:8-9. Their leaders and elders are blind and slumbering, compared to dumb dogs for their failure to warn and avert spiritual disaster despite the presence of prophets among them Isa56:10.

The unrighteous foreigners that persecuted the Jews are spoken of in similar debasing terms and with such aversion that they should not be touched Isa52:1,11,Ps94:8.

All these parallels humans/animals have one common denominator, the loss of all morality and spirituality. In reference to such loss, God warns David not to become Ps32:9"like a mule that does not discern; whose mouth must be held with bit and bridle, so that when he is being groomed, he does not come near you". To avoid that outcome, David is to be careful to follow God's guidance Ps32:8"I will enlighten you and instruct you which way [to go]; I will wink My eye to you".

The Quran uses such metaphors for all people, not only the Jews, who blindly turn away and reject divine guidance 7:175,179,8:22,25:44,74:49-51"Then, why do they turn away from the reminder? As if they were frightened wild donkeys, Fleeting from lions" or behave in this life without spiritual awareness and God-consciousness 47:12"and those who disbelieve enjoy themselves and eat as the beasts eat".

The idolaters, because of their sacraligious practices are najis 9:28 just as in Judaism those of "uncirumcised flesh or hearts" shouldnt be allowed anywhere near a ritualy pure entity, whether a human or else, such as the Temple. Two copies of inscriptions prohibiting the entry of nonbelievers to the Temple have been found on Temple Mount, which Josephus wrote about. These inscriptions were on the dividing wall that surrounded the Second Temple, which prevented non-Jews from accessing the interior of the [Temple] courtyard. The "warning" stone, which is at the Istanbul Archaeological Museum, warns non-Jews of the perils of entering the sacred Temple.

Throughout the books of the Prophets, and down to the book of "writings", non-Jewish ways are paralleled with the images of lewdness, harlotry, foolishness, lurking around to lure the weak of heart.
As a side note, it is interesting to note that this evil path is symbolized in the HB by a woman, ensaring the man, thus perpetrating the mysoginist representation of females, going back to the convolured and corrupted story of creation.

Jesus in the NT makes use of such metaphors as well when he compares the spiritually unclean to dogs and swine Matt7:6. The main thing distinguishing man from animals is his spirituality and sense of morality. This aptitude is what raised him to be God's vicegerent on earth, a honored creature excelling most of God's creation 14:32-33,17:70. So when anyone corrupts and forsakes that aspect of his being, and in addition rejects Divine guidance only to follow his low desires then he loses that distinction and consequently becomes the lowest of the lows although having been made in such a mold that could raise him up to moral and spiritual heights, with the highest rank being that of a prophet of God.

So only you, sum, can know for yourself if you fit the above descriptions given by the Israelite and Ishmaelite prophets, including Christ.

The comparison of the spiritually dead to animals, and even lower in value, as inert and senseless as a stone 2:74, is very apt in that an animal such as sheep or cattle, despite being of very weak intellect can still properly process what it hears (voice of the herdsman) or sees (location of the herdsman and the rest of the flock) in order to find guidance. The spiritually dead cannot make use of any of his senses and so is unable to properly process the perceived information to find guidance and rise to ultimate success. A sheep becomes more apt in finding its correct direction and thus thriving through its life. Dumbness (muteness) illustrates how the inability to listen leads to lack of interest, which would naturally be expressed through further verbal inquiry, reflexion, exchanges etc. 2:18"Deaf, dumb (and) blind, so they will not turn back" 25:44"They are nothing but as cattle; nay, they are straying farther off from the path".

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:52 pm
by sum
Hello Garudaman

I have asked you to stop running away from my question.

I have no intention of answering your question until you answer mine. You are trying to create a diversion which I will ignore.

Please tell me if I am the vilest of creatures.

sum

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:55 pm
by sum
Hello Eagle

You will have read my posts and so will you tell me if I am the vilest of all creatures?

sum

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:04 pm
by Garudaman
sum wrote:Hello Garudaman

I have asked you to stop running away from my question.

I have no intention of answering your question until you answer mine. You are trying to create a diversion which I will ignore.

Please tell me if I am the vilest of creatures.

sum

man, your question is wrong, how can i answering your question, while your question is wrong? you want people answering you? then stop asking wrong question & starts asking the right question! :lotpot:

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:05 pm
by sum
Hello Garudaman

I can`t help but wonder at the effectiveness of Islamic indoctrination.

I am a kafir, rejecter, denier, do not believe in Allah and regard Muhammad as a warlord who had a sexual deviancy.

Am I the vilest of all creatures?

sum

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:49 am
by Mughal
sum wrote:I think that this is a fundamental issue and has enormous implications for the whole of mankind.

I maintain that the fundamental relationship is based on the hatred and enmity of muslims towards non-mulims as Koran 60:4 dictates.

If this is the case then social cohesion between muslims and non-muslims is impossible and begs the question of why we permit muslim immigration which only causes unbreachable divisions in society.

Does anyone disagree?

sum


Dear sum, do you agree the quran contains verses which tell muslims to kill kufaar? Do you also agree that the quran contains verses which tell muslims not to kill kufaar but to give them due respect?

regards and all the best.

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:00 am
by sum
Hello Mughal

Your quote -
Dear sum, do you agree the quran contains verses which tell muslims to kill kufaar?

Yes, it does.

Your quote -
Do you also agree that the quran contains verses which tell muslims not to kill kufaar but to give them due respect?

It all depends on the Koranic meaning of respect. Does it just mean that as long as Kufaar act within the rules of dhimmitude they will be left alone?

What do you think Koranic respect means?

sum