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Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:12 pm
by Mughal
sum wrote:Hello Mughal

Your quote -
Dear sum, do you agree the quran contains verses which tell muslims to kill kufaar?

Yes, it does.

Your quote -
Do you also agree that the quran contains verses which tell muslims not to kill kufaar but to give them due respect?

It all depends on the Koranic meaning of respect. Does it just mean that as long as Kufaar act within the rules of dhimmitude they will be left alone?

What do you think Koranic respect means?

sum


Thank you dear sum for your response. You have answered one question clearly but not the other, may I ask why not? Is it because you have not read the quran or is it because you have not managed to understand it?

Here is a rule I would like you to know when you read the quran. Collect all related verses from all over the quran about a topic and then tie them together in a best possible way you can. If you succeed in doing that then you have proven clearly that you have read the quran and not only you have read the quran but you have also understood its message properly. In case you think well if the quran is full of contradictions then how can I tie all its relevant verses together in a sensible way. You will be right in thinking that way if the quran really did contain irreconcilable contradictions but it does not. Irreconcilable contradictions cannot be removed no matter what. If any apparent contradictions are there they can be explained away. How? The way I am explaining.

or example, 1)collect the set of verses in which you think the quran tells its follower to kill the kufaar. 2)get all the verses in which you think the the quran clearly tells not to kill anyone regardless muslim or kaafir. Now you have a clear cut contradiction in the text of the quran ie one set of verses is telling one thing and the other set of the verses is telling the opposite. How to reconcile these verses with each other? Bring in another set of verses which give reasons for killing or not killing a people be they muslim or kaafir. Now you have the clear cut explanation that removes the contradiction between the apparently conflicting verses. This is the way to explain the quran by the quran. This rule is known as tafseer=explanation of the quran by the quran. This is why one is not right in looking at any particular verse of the quran in isolation from the rest otherwise one will reach the wrong conclusion.

The quran repeatedly tells us all people are not the same eg some are law abiding and others are law breakers. So each kind of people will have to be treated differently as appropriate regardless muslim or kafir. The quran dictates death penalty for deliberate murderers be they muslim or kaafir. It does not paint all with same brush instead it differentiates between people. A muslim must give due respect to his parents and relatives even if they kaafir but not if they start a fight against muslims. But then the quran also tells a muslim to break away from muslim parents and relatives if they stand in the way of jihaad. I am using word jihaad in the proper context of the quran. It is because deen of islam is one for all and all for one but only and only for what is true and right.

This explanation is for the quran and not for nonsense of people who claim to be muslims yet attribute all kinds of nonsense to the quran and deen of islam due to which humanity is rising up against these so called muslims. kufaar need to study the quran themselves rather than reacting to nonsense of muslims about the quran. It is because truth and righteousness is actual teaching of the quran for all people as I have explained in detail already. If people who claim to be muslims lie against the quran or do wrong in the name of deen of islam they deserve punishment because they are enemies of God and humanity both. Likewise deserve punishment kufaar who lie against the quran and actual deen of islam.

Anyway it is very clear in the quranic text that it contains one kind of verses and their opposite verses and also verses which give reasons for both kinds of opposing verses ie reasonable explanations. Unless muslims and nonmuslims understand this rule when reading the quran for its proper understanding they will either end up confused or arrive at wrong conclusions.

regards and all the best.

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:23 pm
by manfred
The Qur'an has not respect for anyone except Mohammed. Biblical characters are twisted to serve his purpose, and the teachings are whatever is convenient to Mohammed at the time is was written down. There is no respect for women, no respect for people from other religions, or respect for anyone on anything, lest of all the truth. Not even God is respected in the Qur'an, God is merely used as a scary voice, a parlour trick, by Mohammed to control his followers.

The whole text is merely the collection of ramblings of medieval Arab mad war lord.

If you want to establish what Muslim must believe about non-Muslims, you do no look at all the contradictory stuff, but you apply the rule of abrogation in the same ways Muslims do. It has been admitted by Muslim scholars that the reason why abrogated verses have been left in the Qur'an is to confuse non-Muslims. You are using the text's pathetic quality to construct a smoke screen.

The LAST surah discussing the relationship of Muslims to non-Muslims and hence the one that abrogates all others with a diverging message is surah 9. And we all know the message there.

So stop trying to lie on this forum. It has no effect.

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:07 pm
by Mughal
manfred wrote:The Qur'an has not respect for anyone except Mohammed. Biblical characters are twisted to serve his purpose, and the teachings are whatever is convenient to Mohammed at the time is was written down. There is no respect for women, no respect for people from other religions, or respect for anyone on anything, lest of all the truth. Not even God is respected in the Qur'an, God is merely used as a scary voice, a parlour trick, by Mohammed to control his followers.

The whole text is merely the collection of ramblings of medieval Arab mad war lord.

If you want to establish what Muslim must believe about non-Muslims, you do no look at all the contradictory stuff, but you apply the rule of abrogation in the same ways Muslims do. It has been admitted by Muslim scholars that the reason why abrogated verses have been left in the Qur'an is to confuse non-Muslims. You are using the text's pathetic quality to construct a smoke screen.

The LAST surah discussing the relationship of Muslims to non-Muslims and hence the one that abrogates all others with a diverging message is surah 9. And we all know the message there.

So stop trying to lie on this form. It has no effect.


Dear manfred, law of God never abrogates and there is no need for that. I want you to figure out and explain why not? Moreover see if you can explain how islamic constitution and its laws can be derived from the quran. If you could explain all that it will show you have read the quran and taht you have tried to understand the quran otherwise you are just dishing out nonsense as usual for whatever reasons of your own. Sincere people do not dismiss anything without first studying it. All I can say is humanity is gradually waking up to real deen of islam based upon best possible quranic interpretation.

Regards and all the best.

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:12 pm
by M85
Mughal wrote:... otherwise you are just dishing out nonsense as usual for whatever reasons of your own. ...

From what I have seen on this forum, this statement is soaked with irony.

Mughal wrote: All I can say is humanity is gradually waking up to real deen of islam based upon best possible quranic interpretation.

Do you mean your word salad re-writing of the Quran? Have you swayed any one with this new interpretation?

I sincerely would love to see reformation, but perhaps it is time for a reality check.

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:41 pm
by manfred
Mughal, you are the one who is clueless about the Qur'an.

Calling someone stupid is not an argument, it is an admission that you have no case.

So are asking how Muslims interpret the "teachings" of the Qur'an in making laws, a "constitution" as you like to call it. The closest you come to an Islamic state is perhaps Saudi Arabia... So how is the default relationship to non-Muslims defined in Islamic Law there?

Perhaps you should look at the way "blood money" (diyyah) is calculated. It depends on your sex and your religion. the blood money for a Hindu woman is 1/8 of that for a Muslim man, and is only payable if the claimant is Muslim, for example the employer of the Hindu woman.

That should tell you all you need to know.

And denying that abrogation exists and a fundamental principle in reading the Qur;an is in itself denying the very words of the Qur'an.

It is also an insult to the intelligence of people here who have studied Islam for a great many years.

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:31 am
by Garudaman
sum wrote:Hello Garudaman

I can`t help but wonder at the effectiveness of Islamic indoctrination.

I am a kafir, rejecter, denier, do not believe in Allah and regard Muhammad as a warlord who had a sexual deviancy.

Am I the vilest of all creatures?

sum

did you know that God is exist? if you're not, how can you deny the existence of God? you must know the thing first in order to deny that thing! like if you deny the reality or science : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denialism

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:37 am
by sum
Hello Garudaman

Yet again you are running away from my question. Why will you not answer it? Are you afraid that the image of Islam will be destroyed if you give a truthful answer?

It is the Koranic claim that non-believers are the vilest of all creatures. I have told you my position regarding my beliefs which include the denial that Allah exists and that Muhammad was not a prophet but simply a warlord with a sexual deviancy.

Now tell me if the Koran, and therefore you, regard me as the vilest of all creatures. Stop your childish stalling and answer the question.

sum

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:36 am
by manfred
you must know the thing first in order to deny that thing!


I like that, and I agree with you.

Now, suppose there a Muslim who has discovered that Mohammed was a fraud, and he is 100% sure. But rather than telling others about this, he carries on as if nothing has changed... praying 5 times a day, fasting, shout "Allah akhbar" when someone get's their hand and foot cut off for stealing, helping to stone a woman who had sex with another man ....

Would by your definition such a man be a kafir, as well as a hypocrite?

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:29 pm
by Fernando
Garudaman wrote:did you know that God is exist? if you're not, how can you deny the existence of God? you must know the thing first in order to deny that thing! like if you deny the reality or science : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denialism
Poor reference, Garudaman. That article defines denialism as denying reality. For instancem denying the Flying Spaghetti Monster isn't denialism, because the FSM isn't real. Nor do I need to know the FSM to deny it. What would be denialism is denying spaghetti, which could be done by someone who has never seen it, let alone eaten it. Either way though, you would probably need an external observer to know whether monster and or sphaghetti are real. Perhaps the Invisible Pink Unicorn would serve?

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:46 pm
by sum
Hello Garudaman and Eagle

You have had plenty of time to consider whether I am the vilest of all creatures.

Do you think that I am the vilest of creatures or not?

Are you frightened to give a truthful Koranic answer? Are you ashamed of the Koran?

sum

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:42 am
by Garudaman
sum wrote:It is the Koranic claim that non-believers are the vilest of all creatures

nope, thats not true, the Quran told that denialist (in sense of the reality or science denialist) are, not non-believers, people can disbelieve because they dont know that its true or they think that its wrong.

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:43 am
by Garudaman
manfred wrote:
you must know the thing first in order to deny that thing!

I like that, and I agree with you.

Now, suppose there a Muslim who has discovered that Mohammed was a fraud, and he is 100% sure. But rather than telling others about this, he carries on as if nothing has changed... praying 5 times a day, fasting, shout "Allah akhbar" when someone get's their hand and foot cut off for stealing, helping to stone a woman who had sex with another man ....

Would by your definition such a man be a kafir, as well as a hypocrite?

yes! ;)

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:25 pm
by sum
Hello Garudaman

You are still avoiding answering my question.

Am I the vilest of creatures?

sum

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:11 am
by Garudaman
yes if you know God exist but denied it, no if you dont know God exist thus dont believe God exist! which one is you?

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:59 am
by sum
Hello Garudaman

Koran 8:55

Sahih International: Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are those who have disbelieved, and they will not [ever] believe -

Pickthall: Lo! the worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the ungrateful who will not believe.

Yusuf Ali: For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who reject Him: They will not believe.

Shakir: Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe.

Muhammad Sarwar: The most wicked creatures in the sight of God are the unbelievers who never have faith,

Mohsin Khan: Verily, The worst of moving (living) creatures before Allah are those who disbelieve, - so they shall not believe.

Arberry: Surely the worst of beasts in God's sight are the unbelievers, who will not believe,

Suppose some Imam comes to me and tries to convince me that Allah exists and is the one true god. I respond by saying "Nah, it is all make believe and I do not accept what you are saying". In fact I reject the concept of Allah and will not believe. This view would fit in exactly with K8:55 and so I claim to be the vilest of all creatures according to the Koran.

Do you agree with me that I am the vilest of all creatures according to K8:55?

sum

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:37 pm
by Garudaman
sum wrote:In fact I reject the concept of Allah and will not believe. This view would fit in exactly with K8:55 and so I claim to be the vilest of all creatures according to the Koran.

Do you agree with me that I am the vilest of all creatures according to K8:55?

thats not true, because QS. 8:55 said kafir, & the meaning of kafir is denialist, not unbeliever/disbeliever viewtopic.php?f=22&t=14704&p=194459#p194459

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:05 pm
by sum
Hello Garudaman

I think that it is you who are in a state of denial. It is perfectly clear that I fit in with the quotes that I gave. Explain where "kafir" fits in and is mentioned in the quotes as I do not see it.

You are making a fool of yourself implying that you are more knowledgeable than those responsible for the quotes.

Even Eagle knows that you are wrong and that is why he keeps away from this thread.

sum

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:05 pm
by Garudaman
the quotes that you gave are wrong or lets say not accurate translation, because they didnt consider QS. 17:36, QS. 17:15, QS. 2:62, QS. 2:286. QS. 6:152, QS. 7:42, QS. 65:7, QS. 5:48, QS. 5:69 viewtopic.php?f=22&t=14704&p=194459#p194459

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:24 pm
by sum
Hello Garudaman

Your reference is irrelevant to my question to you. There is no sensible way that you can use your reference to dispute my quotes.

Be a man and admit that I am the vilest of all creatures according to the Koran.

sum

Re: What is the default relationship of muslims to non-musli

PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:32 pm
by sum
Hello Garudaman

I am still waiting for your reply to my post.

Are any of the non-muslim posters in the forum the vilest of all creatures?

sum