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Re: Tariq Ramadan

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:31 am
by manfred
eagle, this is getting stupid ... you saying something is not "showing", in fact most of the time it is covering up.

The earliest version of this story comes from the Syrian bishop Jacob of Sarug (c. 450 – 521), which is itself derived from an earlier Greek source, now lost.[2] An outline of this tale appears in Gregory of Tours (538–594).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Sleepers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I gave you a full academic arcticle to read:
http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il/symposiums ... /Horst.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and several other sources.

So please keep your punch and Judy reaction. You have established nothing at all.

Re: Tariq Ramadan

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:00 pm
by Eagle
A link was given to the post proving the romances postdate the writing of Dhul Qarnayn.

As for the issue of the sleepers
the issue was not to determine whether the Quran borrowed it, but whether it was an accepted and unquestionned fact for centuries, which it was until a version among other versions was discredited for the reasons already explained. So there is a true story in the Quran, whose core elements have been circulating all over the known world, just as other true facts and stories. Then?

Re: Tariq Ramadan

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:40 pm
by manfred
Yes I know what you said. It was yet another slight of hand of yours. Your argument: There are later manuscripts, so the Alexander romance cannot be a source for the Qur'an. You tried to hide that there were also earlier ones, as repeated shown, so that argument is invalid.
the issue was not to determine whether the Quran borrowed it, but whether it was an accepted and unquestionned fact for centuries,
No that is not the issue at all, that is your smoke screen. Who believed the story and who didn't does not affect where it is from. In fact it was never widely believed as repeated shown. Why would an omniscient being peddle an old tale as "fact"? He would have known he gets caught out.

So you are still stuck with explaining why the Qur'an has a old Greek folk tale as a "divine revelation".

I help you explain it: because old Mo was a borrower of stories. He had little imagination, as his mind was controlled by sex, greed and violence, and his "revelations" are stories of the ancients, as his contemporaries pointed out.

Re: Tariq Ramadan

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:29 pm
by Eagle
There are zero non edited manuscripts predating the Quran, with particular emphasis on the re-edition of the passages used in parallel with Dhul Qarnayn. All were reedited in an islamic environement or after the late 7th century anti islam pamphlet pseudo-methodius had gained sweeping influence in Europe.

Of course that the issue wqs to determine whether the Quran contains a fabricated folk tale or a true story whose core is found in multiple independant sources, unanimously accepted and unquestionned for centuries until 1 Christian official questionned 1 version among others and discredited it for the reasons already explained.

Re: Tariq Ramadan

Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:27 am
by manfred
Ah, so the wicked Christians changed the text... again. like the bible, right...

Honestly, eagle you could make the stuff up you write... We have written documents of the sleepers story pre-dating Islam and you say these have been falsified, to harm Islam, again, obviously without any proof, so this clearly is nonsense.

The story has been in wide circulation long before Mohammed, and we have very good evidence for that, given several times.
Obviously the version of the Qur'an is a little different... as I said before, a very old folk tale first got a Christian twist, and when Mohammed heard it he gave in a Muslim twist. The story was even known in India. That is the way with folk tales, as they get retold they get embellished and changed here and there.

The little doggy is also Mohammed's quaint little touch...

Re: Tariq Ramadan

Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:55 am
by Eagle
That there are multiple versions of one core story is a historical fact and is irrelevant in demonstrating whether the basic story is true or not.

However, the multiplicity of independent sources retelling a core story, together with the fact it was unanimously accepted and unquestionned for centuries until 1 Christian official questionned 1 version among others and discredited it for the reasons already explained, gives more credence to the fact that it is true.

So the Quran narrates a story, like many others, most probably true whose core has been circulating all over the known world. Then what?

Re: Tariq Ramadan

Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:05 am
by manfred
So the Quran narrates a story, like many others, most probably true whose core has been circulating all over the known world. Then what?
The Qur'ans story is no more true than any of the others. For goodness sake, it's folk tale.

Re: Tariq Ramadan

Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 11:01 am
by Fernando
manfred wrote:Yes I know what you said. It was yet another slight of hand of yours. Your argument: There are later manuscripts, so the Alexander romance cannot be a source for the Qur'an. You tried to hide that there were also earlier ones, as repeated shown, so that argument is invalid.
And, by analogy, Mughal's version of the Koran will, when he's finished it, be later than Mohammed's, so Mohammed cannot the the source of the Koran. Wow!

Re: Tariq Ramadan

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:41 pm
by Ariel
Image

Tariq Ramadan indicted for rape of a fifth woman

Prominent Islamic scholar Tariq Ramadan, already facing charges for raping four women, was indicted on Thursday on a fifth case for rapes dating back to 2013-2014, AFP reported citing one of his lawyers.

This indictment had been requested in the spring of 2018 by the Paris prosecutor's office, but the judges had so far suspended their decision on the case of this former escort. His testimony at the time had led Ramadan, then detained, to admit extra-marital relations for the first time, adding that his relationship with the accuser had been "consensual.”

"There is no new element" in the investigation for two years, "it is a formal indictment to be able to organize the confrontation soon," commented defense lawyers Nabila Asmane, Ouadie El Hamamouchi, and Philippe Ohayon, during their appearance at the Paris court.

"It is not the word of Tariq Ramadan against that of this woman, it is this woman against her own grave and concordant lies," they added.

French judges in 2018 dismissed a third allegation of rape against Ramadan involving Mounia Rabbouj.

The 55-year-old said he had a consensual relationship with Rabbouj, a French Muslim woman, who accused him of raping her nine times between 2013 and 2014.

He had submitted more than 300 videos and more than 1,000 photos to convince judges that it was a consensual relationship, and the magistrates at the time decided not to charge him.

A third and fourth indictment, for the suspected rape of two other women in 2015 and 2016, were pronounced last February against Ramadan.