Some things about the Kaaba...

Prove Islam is from God, why it is the 'One True Religion'.
iffo
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

Post by iffo »

Fernando wrote:
iffo wrote:I know people who are doctors, or engineers and phds or head of the state belieiving in these stupid stories, because their brain has been already damaged.
But do they really believe it, iffo, or are they just pretending so that they maintain their power or out of fear? Or is it some kind of schizophrenia, where they have a little bit of brain that's only activated when religion is concerned, whereupon it takes over?
Yes they do believe it. Not because of fear nor they are pretending. Yes probably fear, but that is fear of Allah not humans. These stories are are in line with what they want to hear and what they belived their whole life and invested as to how great islam is and that it is indeed true religion from the one who created this universe. Their ability to question anything is zero, that part of the brain is shut off since childhood.

I am not implying they are stupid, they are not , but when it comes to religion their brain goes dead . Its an very interesting phenomenon . Religions do such an amazing job of brain washing since childhood that it very difficult to recover from it.
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Takeiteasynow
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Makkah is the center of the universe and its time should be the internationally accredited time instead of Greenwich which was imposed on the world by Britain. The direction of tawaf has to do with the movement of stars. The footprint of Prophet Ibrahim near the Holy Kaaba when he and his son Ismail were rebuilding it as commanded by God stands as a lasting miracle. Zamzam water has been gushing from the same well for thousands of years without a change of taste or color."
These claims are pretty amazing. Let's highlight ZamZam water and what one hour of fundamental research can reveal. The biradical root for ZamZam in Semitic languages is zm, which its Sememe means time, season. In addition, it is used to express as time, season, and period. (1) Assuming that Petra is factual Mecca the Lexicon Syriacum offers an even more precious definition: to call, sing, celebrate, praise or extol. (2).

ZamZam most likely refers to a locality with water. The locality is named 'Sing and Praise', or 'Sing and celebrate', the Nabatean version of The Voice, a religious event with songs and dance to praise god in an almost Dionysian way. In this scenario you would expect to find a wine press on the holy mountain of their supreme god Dushara (or Allah in Nabatean graffiti). O yes wait, it has one!

Anyway, I could imagine botanical gardens with species, palm trees and a huge swimming pool, much bigger than its Olympic counterpart, filled with fresh rain water from the mountains. This place would be next to a great temple - big enough for counterclockwise circulation with a lot of pilgrims (tawaf) - that would host the holy meteorite during festival seasons.

I could imagine that afterwards they would like to relax in botanical gardens, drink wine, sing and dance to praise god. And most of all cooling down in a spring of bath with health-giving properties so they are well prepared for their next glass of delicious red wine.

I thought this was only a pleasant dream - but then astrophysics matched the earliest Muslim descriptions of the Kaaba with the splendid solstitial definitions of Petra's monuments and their way facing the equinoxes.(3)

So all in all ZamZam is a Spa - the Nabateans and their offspring surely knew how to earn a buck from pilgrimage! After all you should not take everything that seriously: sometimes it's time to contemplate but then it's time to sing and celebrate. Hey, using a biradical root that would become ZamZamZam!

(1) Hecker, Bernice Varjick. The Biradical Origin of Semitic Roots, page 75
(2) Brockelmann, C., 1928. Lexicon Syriacum, page 193-196
(3) Instituto de Astrofísica de Canarias, Università degli Studi di Perugia
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak
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Takeiteasynow
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Actually now that I think of it, such a famous place like Zam Zam would probably deserve a song that could last generations! Let's be creative and write some lyrics!

Now its location is in Syria, hmm that's Aram in Aramaic. Now I would like to invite a friend or companion to come along ... hmm.. that's rafiq. Of course we need to do the tawaf, to encircle the holy stone. Hmm, maybe something with the proto-Semitic root gl, to circle? Let's be creative!
Aram Zam Zam, Aram Zam Zam,
Guli guli guli guli guli Aram Zam Zam
A rafiq, a rafiq
Guli guli guli guli guli Aram Zam Zam
O well, not too bad for a first Aramaic composition.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak
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Takeiteasynow
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Dan Gibson has published a new paper on the Pre-Islamic Ka'ba.

Source: https://thesacredcity.ca/Four%20Kabas.pdf

The Pre-Islamic Ka’ba

Very little is known about the first pre-Islamic Ka’ba. However, from my survey of the earliest Qiblas, I concluded that the pre-Islamic Ka’ba must have been built in the city of Petra, because it was where all of the earliest Qiblas pointed. But first we need to learn something of the history of the Ka’ba.

From Islamic sources we learn that the history of this location goes back to Abraham and Ishmael. Allah revealed to Ibrahim, may peace be on him, to erect the Ka'ba when he was one hundred years old and Isma'il was thirty years old, so he built it with him. Isma'il died after his father and was interred inside al- Ḥijr close to the Ka`ba by the side of his mother Hajar. (Ibn Sa’ad Vol 1, 1.8.14. & Ṭabarī, Vol. I, p. 162, and Ibn Hishām 2).

In the above description several things are evident. Muslims believe that the original Ka’ba was built by Abraham and Ishmael, and the graves of Hagar and her son are located there, near the Ka’ba.

We also have descriptions of the Pre-Islamic mosque. First, Ibn Hishām tells us that the original Ka’ba was a small, roofless enclosure, with walls a little higher than a man.
...the Quraysh decided to rebuild the Ka`ba when the apostle was thirty-five years of age. They were planning to roof it and feared to demolish it, for it was made of loose stones above a man's height, and they wanted to raise it and roof it because men had stolen part of the treasure of the Ka`ba which used to be in a well in the middle of it. (Ibn Hishām 44)
Azraqī (pg. 27) tells us that it was made of rough stone laid dry. The dimensions of the sides are listed as: north-east: 32 cubits, north-west: 22 cubits, south-west: 31 cubits, south-east: 20 cubits. So the proportions were roughly 3:2. If we calculate a cubit as 0.4572 meters, then the dimensions would have been: 14.63 meters x 10.6 meters x 14.17 meters x 9.1 meters.

Dan Gibson projects these fine dimensions onto an ancient and unexplained structure in front of the Qasr al-Bint. He proposes this place as the original location of the Ka'ba.

Location:https://www.google.com/maps/@30.3298279 ... a=!3m1!1e3
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak
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Fernando
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

Post by Fernando »

From Islamic sources we learn that the history of this location goes back to Abraham and Ishmael. Allah revealed to Ibrahim, may peace be on him, to erect the Ka'ba when he was one hundred years old and Isma'il was thirty years old, so he built it with him. Isma'il died after his father and was interred inside al- Ḥijr close to the Ka`ba by the side of his mother Hajar.
Muslims say that - but did the pre-Islamic people who built the Kaaba believe that? Did they link it to Abraham at all, or was Mohammed the first Arab to talk of Abraham as an ancestor?
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah
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Takeiteasynow
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Does it matter? I think that a historian should use facts that can be verified and ignore imaginary or theological timelines.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak
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Fernando
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

Post by Fernando »

Takeiteasynow wrote:Does it matter? I think that a historian should use facts that can be verified and ignore imaginary or theological timelines.
I was assuming that Muslims who believe all that about Abraham would offer evidence, the validity of which we could then challenge discuss. I was also trying to tease out whether the ancestry business was an Arab or purely Mohammedan claim.
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah
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Takeiteasynow
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Trying to tease me out hey? Perhaps a little tease for the readers would do fine. Let's organize a little contest which may bring an enormous reward for the winner: eternal fame.

The key question: what is the original location of the Ka'ba before the transposition of the Haij from Petra to Mecca?

Right now there are two proposed locations.
Dan Gibson: in front of the Qasr al-Bint, Petra
https://www.google.com/maps/@30.3298279 ... a=!3m1!1e3
The easy location: in between Qasr al-Bint and the Great Temple. Currently known as the 'small temple', Petra.
https://www.google.com/maps/@30.3289296 ... a=!3m1!1e3
Readers can propose alternatives (well argued and documented of course) until the 15th of February 2019. The winner will be announced early March.

Your one and only chance for eternal fame! Earn immortal glory this spring! So what are you waiting for?
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak
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Takeiteasynow
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Last January a final conference was held to honor thirty years of French excavations and research on the Qasr-al-Bint:
- The small temple wasn't part of the original temple complex or temenos.
- The Qasr al-Bint was reused during early Islamic times.
- The structure in front of the Qasr-al-Bint has the classic measurements of the Kaaba
- The temenos of the temple was used to build houses after 356 AD, a process described in the hadith.

Most relevant result from from the 2016/2017 seasons:

From Institut national de recherches archéologiques préventives, Petra: Qasr al-Bint
For the recent periods, the most significant remains are related to an early Islamic reoccupation of the temple. They consist of a terrace wall, located on the monumental staircase of the temple, and of an impressive enclosure wall built inside the pronaos with massive reused dressed-stone and column drums (all of them part of the temple’s upper parts).
So Dan Gibson wins this round. But a new problem has arisen: it's probably not the original location of the Kaaba. So far there is no reasonable explanation for the swift cultural transformation of Nabataean (religious) culture, from a very conservative one in the 4th century BC to an almost Babylonian styled society in the first century BC - which by that time was already heavy Hellenized.

Second location Kaaba
https://www.google.com/maps/@30.3298279 ... a=!3m1!1e3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So where's the first?
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak
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Takeiteasynow
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Let's do a riddle today! Take your time!

What looks like a cube, has four identical sides with one opening, resembles the House of God, is the center of the main festival, is associated with Abraham, gets encircled seven times, is - according to tradition - annually draped and refurbished and obligatory build with organic materials?

...
...
...














It's a Sukkah! (of the ancient tradition).
Great! Another piece of the puzzle solved.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak
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pr126
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

Post by pr126 »

I am following the history of Islam and watching the videos of Dan Gibson explaining the origins of Islam which started in Petra in Jordan.

Here are just one of his videos. I wonder how many Muslims are aware of the origins of their religion.


Islam: an idea to kill and die for.
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SAM
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

Post by SAM »

pr126 wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:00 am
I am following the history of Islam and watching the videos of Dan Gibson explaining the origins of Islam which started in Petra in Jordan.

Here are just one of his videos. I wonder how many Muslims are aware of the origins of their religion.


They have no knowledge of this; they only follow guesswork. Their only argument, Quran 45:24... :lol:
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)
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Ariel
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

Post by Ariel »

SAM wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:42 am
I looked it up. And they say, "There is not but our worldly life; we die and live, and nothing destroys us except time." And they have of that no knowledge; they are only assuming.

Question.

Is this a quote from a frustrated mohammed because wise man did not wanted to listen to him?
The heart of the wise inclines to the right,
but the heart of the fool to the left.
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SAM
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

Post by SAM »

Ariel wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:46 am

I looked it up. And they say, "There is not but our worldly life; we die and live, and nothing destroys us except time." And they have of that no knowledge; they are only assuming.

Question.

Is this a quote from a frustrated mohammed because wise man did not wanted to listen to him?
This verse is about the destiny of death. Do you know when you will die...(time, date and place). If not, do not make assumptions.
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)
sum
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

Post by sum »

Hello SAM

Isn`t the Kaaba also a slaughter house where one of Muhammad`s critics was killed on Muhammad`s orders? It had been assumed that the Kaaba was akin to sanctuary but that mattered not one jot to Muhammad. Killing his critic was more important than any other consideration.

Is that correct, SAM?

sum
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