Some things about the Kaaba...

Prove Islam is from God, why it is the 'One True Religion'.
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manfred
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

Post by manfred »

This has to be Islam at it's idiotic, as that is provably false, as this the nonsense with the Kaaba being the "centre of universe" and therefore planes being unable to fly over it....

Why would Muslims propose things to be true that simple research or experiment show to be false?

And then, showing to be about as ignorant as you could possibly be, call other people names...
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SAM
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

Post by SAM »

manfred wrote:This has to be Islam at it's idiotic, as that is provably false, as this the nonsense with the Kaaba being the "centre of universe" and therefore planes being unable to fly over it....

Why would Muslims propose things to be true that simple research or experiment show to be false?

And then, showing to be about as ignorant as you could possibly be, call other people names...
That is their belief.
Who cares. :D
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manfred
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

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"their"? or "Sam's"?

When the stupidity of some of Islamic teaching it pointed out you say it is someone else's beliefs, it seems...

You really have to be incredibly stupid to believe that Solomon "rebuilt" the al Aqsa mosque.... Perhaps you need to carefully think about this a work out why this is proposed in the first place, in the face of known facts. If you can find an honest answer to yourself on that question, then you are beginning to understand Islam.
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SAM
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

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manfred wrote:"their"? or "Sam's"?

When the stupidity of some of Islamic teaching it pointed out you say it is someone else's beliefs, it seems...
Many Muslims have their own knowledge and are not all the same. Because in the teachings of Islam there are several levels of knowledge. Just as in Christianity arguing and disputes about the teachings in their Bibles.
manfred wrote:You really have to be incredibly stupid to believe that Solomon "rebuilt" the al Aqsa mosque.... Perhaps you need to carefully think about this a work out why this is proposed in the first place, in the face of known facts. If you can find an honest answer to yourself on that question, then you are beginning to understand Islam.
I know more than you know. As I said before, not everything you want to know about Islam has written on the website.

You are still ignorant. :lol:
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
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manfred
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

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Unable to think, unable to even look, and unable to tell fairy tales from facts... And still calling other people stupid.
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frankie
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

Post by frankie »

SAM wrote:
manfred wrote:"their"? or "Sam's"?

When the stupidity of some of Islamic teaching it pointed out you say it is someone else's beliefs, it seems...
Many Muslims have their own knowledge and are not all the same. Because in the teachings of Islam there are several levels of knowledge. Just as in Christianity arguing and disputes about the teachings in their Bibles.
manfred wrote:You really have to be incredibly stupid to believe that Solomon "rebuilt" the al Aqsa mosque.... Perhaps you need to carefully think about this a work out why this is proposed in the first place, in the face of known facts. If you can find an honest answer to yourself on that question, then you are beginning to understand Islam.
I know more than you know. As I said before, not everything you want to know about Islam has written on the website.

You are still ignorant. :lol:
SAM
As I said before, not everything you want to know about Islam has written on the website.
Agreed,Muslims prove by their own actions their faith is rooted in pre Islamic Arabian paganism, when they perform Hajj, Ramadan and the veneration of a stone held in a pagan shrine.
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Fernando
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

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SAM wrote:Al Aqsa Mosque has existed before being rebuilt by Prophet Sulaiman. He rebuilt Al-Aqsa, at the command of Allah as he knew that Muhammad (Spiritually) would ascend to meet Allah from there.

You are still ignorant about the teachings of Islam. :lol:
Or is the the teaching of Islam that is ignorant, SAM? If you are citing it correctly, it means that Islam holds that Solomon was around building Mosques after 70AD. Now that really would be something for the ants to talk about!
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah
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SAM
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

Post by SAM »

frankie wrote: SAM

Agreed,Muslims prove by their own actions their faith is rooted in pre Islamic Arabian paganism, when they perform Hajj, Ramadan and the veneration of a stone held in a pagan shrine.
You're still ignorant of repeating old arguments. :lol:
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)
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SAM
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

Post by SAM »

manfred wrote:Unable to think, unable to even look, and unable to tell fairy tales from facts... And still calling other people stupid.
Islam is not like Christianity that requires historical facts to prove its truth.

The truth of Christianity you have today is based on apostolic witnesses, since 2000 years ago. That is why Roman Catholics did a crusade because they wanted to conquer Jerusalem because the Church of Jesus was there.

The Catholic Church believes that it has the truth that is directly related to the historical fact created by Christ 2000 years ago. Because today there is no one including the Church that can produce the truth that Jesus was really raised from the dead and then ascended to Heaven.
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)
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manfred
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

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Islam is not like Christianity that requires historical facts to prove its truth.
No, it relies on people cutting the throats who refuse to acknowledge Islam's "truth". But thank you for admitting that all of Islam is built on fantasy.
The truth of Christianity you have today is based on apostolic witnesses, since 2000 years ago. That is why Roman Catholics did a crusade because they wanted to conquer Jerusalem because the Church of Jesus was there.
Yes, Christianity is based of the beliefs that the early Christians have passed on. However the crusades were started because of the never ending bloodbath of Christian perpetrated by the Muslims. Sadly the first crusade was started much too late. If Islam had been stopped in its tracks, like quite a few other dangerous movements before it and after it, we would have a much more peaceful world today.
The Catholic Church believes that it has the truth that is directly related to the historical fact created by Christ 2000 years ago. Because today there is no one including the Church that can produce the truth that Jesus was really raised from the dead and then ascended to Heaven.
Indeed. However, we do have pretty good evidence that Jesus, the man lived, from a range of sources, Christian and otherwise. What we have about the resurrection is also the statements of a number of people testifying to it. You can either believe their account or not. However, you cannot logically suggest it is impossible or implausible. We have accounts of a real Jesus living and being crucified, within biblical texts and outside of them. Then we have the testimony of the gospels to the resurrection. We also have historical evidence that this belief in the resurrection profoundly formed the Christian community from the earliest of day, and that people were willing to die for this belief.

Therefore the belief in these events and the historical or other facts we know do not stand in contradiction to each other. This is a condition for a religious belief to be feasible. By definition, you cannot "prove" a belief, but if you can show it is historically or logically impossible then you should reject it.

Example: "Bird cannot fly over the Kaaba" I see a bird flying over the Kaaba. So this cannot be right.

As to the resurrection, the Church would not try to "prove" it to you, as then it would be a fact not a belief. However it would tell you the sources for the belief and tell you the effect it had on early Christians. It would also point out that the resurrection is by definition an event that is "supernatural" and "transcendental", i.e. while it has had in effect on history, it is not "contained" by earthly history, it is something that has CHANGED history, without being confined to be part of it. It is an event that affected not one moment in time, but all that went before it and that happened after it.

Unlike Muslims, the Church would it then leave to you to decide what you want to believe.
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Hombre
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

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SAM wrote:Many Muslims have their own knowledge and are not all the same. Because in the teachings of Islam there are several levels of knowledge. Just as in Christianity arguing and disputes about the teachings in their Bibles.
That is their your belief.
Who cares. :D
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Hombre
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

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SAM wrote:Islam is not like Christianity that requires historical facts to prove its truth.
As the 3rd in line - the Jonny-come-late religion, where all biblical stories told in Quran - all derived from the Hebrew Bible & the New Testament - of course, Islam does not need to prove the truth, because it doesn't have any form of truth to tell. The very reason Islam uses extreme violence to convince you of its sick brand of truth.
....today there is no one including the Church that can produce the truth that Jesus was really raised from the dead and then ascended to Heaven.
Jesus at least is believed to have ascended from the very spot where he died. That is more believable.

What about Muhammad who's Muslim claim to have ascended to heaven some 1500 km from the place where he died in the arms of his 18-year-old "wife".

Even if you are playing the Muslim" troll, must be utterly ignorant to not connect the two ascensions to draw a firm conclusion. Muhammad & his dumb followers where placing him in line with previous prophets - which is a big fat lie.
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

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manfred wrote:Yes, Christianity is based of the beliefs that the early Christians have passed on. However the crusades were started because of the never ending bloodbath of Christian perpetrated by the Muslims. Sadly the first crusade was started much too late. If Islam had been stopped in its tracks, like quite a few other dangerous movements before it and after it, we would have a much more peaceful world today.
In the muslim world,up until modern times people of the book were tolerated.In medieval Christendom,existence of Muslims or pagans was out of question.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

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In the muslim world,up until modern times people of the book were tolerated.In medieval Christendom,existence of Muslims or pagans was out of question.
If being a dhimmi is "tolerance", you are right. If you have to pay a special tax in person, while being hit in the face with a shoe, is tolerance,then you are right.

As to Muslims in Christian lands, there were virtually none until modern times, because Muslims never arrived as immigrants always as conquerors. Muslim immigration, conquest by penis, is a new concept. Before, that, Muslims marched into places, set themselves up as rulers and took whatever they could.

There only place which had a sizeable Muslim population was Spain in the early days. When Andalusia was eventually retaken by the Spanish, after centuries of struggle, the Muslims we told to leave, as the Spanish knew what Muslim rule was like and the remaining Muslim population was seen rightly as a threat to security. Sadly the local Jews got tarred with the same brush and were also asked to leave. The Jews dispersed, with many moving to Italy, the Muslims returned to Morocco, where Spain set up two forts (Ceuta and Melilla, Spanish to this day) to keep an eye of the straits of Gibraltar and to make any return difficult. Some Muslims from Spain went on to live in the Papal States in Italy, and one of those wrote the infamous "gospel of Barnabas" there.

Muslims until recent times followed the order of Mohammed that you may not live under the rule of a non-Muslim very seriously, and Europe simply never had a lot of Muslims living there. With the expansion and new conquests mostly by the Ottoman empire, Muslims settled in the new land, and some locals also converted to Islam to avoid persecution. Then, when the Ottoman empire collapsed, these remained, and later this caused much of the conflict on the Balkans.
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

Post by frankie »

SAM wrote:
frankie wrote: SAM

Agreed,Muslims prove by their own actions their faith is rooted in pre Islamic Arabian paganism, when they perform Hajj, Ramadan and the veneration of a stone held in a pagan shrine.
You're still ignorant of repeating old arguments. :lol:
SAM

You have things the wrong way round again, Muslims are the ones who are still living in the time of ignorance, they still practice the same pre Islamic pagan rituals their prophet did before them when he was an idolater, I am just pointing this FACT out.

You have yet to give your evidence to prove my "ignorance" is "wrong

Why do Muslim still perform rituals from a "period of ignorance", when the alleged truth of Islam had come with Mohammed?

Sahih Bukhari 5:58:172
"Narrated 'Aisha: 'Ashura' (i.e. the tenth of Muharram) was a day on which the tribe of Quraish used to fast in the pre-lslamic period of ignorance. The Prophet also used to fast on this day. So when he migrated to Medina, he fasted on it and ordered (the Muslims) to fast on it. When the fasting of Ramadan was enjoined, it became optional for the people to fast or not to fast on the day of Ashura.


Sahih Bukhari 2:26:710
Narrated 'Asim: I asked Anas bin Malik: "Did you use to dislike to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa?" He said, "Yes, as it was of the ceremonies of the days of the Pre-lslamic period of ignorance, till Allah revealed: 'Verily! (The two mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwa are among the symbols of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who performs the pilgrimage to the Ka'ba, or performs 'Umra, to perform Tawaf between them.' " (2.158)
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

Post by Nosuperstition »

If being a dhimmi is "tolerance", you are right. If you have to pay a special tax in person, while being hit in the face with a shoe, is tolerance,then you are right.
Well that is atleast better.Hindus were spit on their face when they were paying the extortion tax of ziziya.
As to Muslims in Christian lands, there were virtually none until modern times, because Muslims never arrived as immigrants always as conquerors. Muslim immigration, conquest by penis, is a new concept
Not at all.Muslim men arrived as traders in both the sub-continent(Kerala being a glaring example) and the Indonesian archipalego,married locals even as they were not the local rulers.Compare that to Christendom,you never really allowed them to set foot until modern times unless you were conquered.You also did not allow local European pagans to continue with their old ways and forcibly converted them to Christianity through conquests and the Inquisition.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.
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manfred
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

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Kerala and Indonesia are/were "Christian lands"?

In Europe Muslims arrived as conquerors, and they were driven back from Grance, but they had a foothold in Spain. Later, from the East, the Ottomans similarly set out to conquer Europe, but with mixes success. They variously occupied what today is Greece, Bulgaria and the Balkan states, but eventually they lost most of that territory again.

Are you surprised that Muslims were not hugely welcome in Europe given their past behaviour? Nonetheless, there was considerable trade, much of it via Venice.

The Indonesian archipelago became large Muslim by means of deception. India had a much more violent experience of Muslims than Indonesia.
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SAM
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

Post by SAM »

manfred wrote:No, it relies on people cutting the throats who refuse to acknowledge Islam's "truth". But thank you for admitting that all of Islam is built on fantasy.
The apostolic witnesses who witnessed a false Jesus were crucified but did not witness him being raised from dead, a fairy tale that Jesus only met his disciples who then ascended to heaven.
Yes, Christianity is based of the beliefs that the early Christians have passed on. However the crusades were started because of the never ending bloodbath of Christian perpetrated by the Muslims. Sadly the first crusade was started much too late. If Islam had been stopped in its tracks, like quite a few other dangerous movements before it and after it, we would have a much more peaceful world today.
:lotpot: During the life of Jesus UK/EU peoples are still idolaters/paganism. The existential Christianity created by Constantine 300 years after the death of Jesus. Before the advent of Islam, Christians fought and killed each other.
Indeed. However, we do have pretty good evidence that Jesus, the man lived, from a range of sources, Christian and otherwise. What we have about the resurrection is also the statements of a number of people testifying to it. You can either believe their account or not. However, you cannot logically suggest it is impossible or implausible. We have accounts of a real Jesus living and being crucified, within biblical texts and outside of them. Then we have the testimony of the gospels to the resurrection. We also have historical evidence that this belief in the resurrection profoundly formed the Christian community from the earliest of day, and that people were willing to die for this belief.

Therefore the belief in these events and the historical or other facts we know do not stand in contradiction to each other. This is a condition for a religious belief to be feasible. By definition, you cannot "prove" a belief, but if you can show it is historically or logically impossible then you should reject it.

Example: "Bird cannot fly over the Kaaba" I see a bird flying over the Kaaba. So this cannot be right.

As to the resurrection, the Church would not try to "prove" it to you, as then it would be a fact not a belief. However it would tell you the sources for the belief and tell you the effect it had on early Christians. It would also point out that the resurrection is by definition an event that is "supernatural" and "transcendental", i.e. while it has had in effect on history, it is not "contained" by earthly history, it is something that has CHANGED history, without being confined to be part of it. It is an event that affected not one moment in time, but all that went before it and that happened after it.

Unlike Muslims, the Church would it then leave to you to decide what you want to believe.
Muslims believe in Allah's words, not Bible writers who have never met or been with Jesus. The Bible writers are inspired by Iblis. :dev:

The Islamic virtues are based on the evidence set forth in the Quran apart from the historical facts. :D
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)
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manfred
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

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The apostolic witnesses who witnessed a false Jesus were crucified but did not witness him being raised from dead, a fairy tale that Jesus only met his disciples who then ascended to heaven.
... and this "information" is based on the rantings of a mad Arab who lived more than half a millennium later. The witness of the gospels is what it is, and to assume that of all people Mohammed knows better is just plain idiotic.
The existential Christianity created by Constantine 300 years after the death of Jesus. Before the advent of Islam, Christians fought and killed each other.
Christianity became "respectable" under emperor Constantine, but it pre-dates him by a large margin. Actually Christians did not "kill each other" before Constantine, they were persecuted and killed by the Roman State.
Muslims believe in Allah's words, not Bible writers who have never met or been with Jesus. The Bible writers are inspired by Iblis.

The Islamic virtues are based on the evidence set forth in the Quran apart from the historical facts.
And the Qur'an are "allah's words"??? :lotpot: They are the rants of a medieval Arab madman. As to the writers of the New Testament, SOME have spent years with Jesus, such as Peter, others know and met those who met Jesus in person.

The Qur'an on the other hand is just a late edited copy of some biblical texts, to help Mohammed to get sex, money and power. Yes, I know, Muslims follow that, and it leads them to kill each other as well as attack non-Muslims on a regular basis. It is an abomination in the sight of God. If any text deserves the epitaph of "written by the devil" then that is the Qur'an.
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manfred
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Re: Some things about the Kaaba...

Post by manfred »

Your last post here has been moved to the soap box, and replied to there.
So, after having posted your usual garbage, SAM, can you get back to the topic?
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