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"dancing" boys...

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:02 pm
by manfred

Re: "dancing" boys...

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:00 pm
by Nosuperstition
They say it is the residual evil of their kafir past i.e that of the Greek rule in the form of Bactrian kingdom.

Re: "dancing" boys...

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:52 pm
by manfred
There has been Islamic rule in Afghanistan for over 1000 years, and they still blame rulers from the distant past? The Bactian Kingdom was from about 250 BC to 125 BC, long before Islam. They were defeated by the Romans, but they took little interest in Afghanistan. After the Bactrians, it gradually got under Hindu influence and rule, but Buddhism was also prominent.

So before the Muslims arrived, the region had strong influences from Greek, Persian, Roman, Hindu and specially Buddhist culture. And despite of these diverging cultures somehow something from the ancient past got stuck? And what evidence is there that the Bactian kings practised organised child abuse?

We had similar things in England with gangs of Muslims abusing girls though, not boys, but the practices and methods are very similar.

I think this toleration of child abuse is a MUSLIM phenomenon, as you can also find it in Pakistan, Iran and in large parts of the Arab world. It is less common in the far East, Malaysia and Indonesia, but not unheard of either. From Turkey to Indonesia, the "uncle" has a sort of shady double meaning, something people in the West are not familiar with.

Re: "dancing" boys...

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:05 pm
by Nosuperstition
And what evidence is there that the Bactian kings practised organised child abuse?


crazymonkie_ wrote:The view you're espousing shows massive ignorance of what it meant and where it came from. To begin: Everyone lived much shorter lives back then. It was common to be married around 13, have had one's first child at 14, and be dead around 40- barring wars, plagues or just bad neighbors.

When you talk about homosexuality here, you're talking about an institution that was about education, and also (based upon shorter lifespans) between an older and a younger man. In today's parlance- an adult and a teenager. Objectively, that's pretty gross, but for the time, it makes sense.

But hey- if you want to gainsay an educational system that gave the world Plato, Socrates, Aristotle, Aristophanes, Epicurus, Ovid, Virgil, Seneca, Pliny (both Elder and Younger


http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=1803&hilit=extinct&start=20

I saw such a statement of accusation being made against pagan Greeks somewhere in the T.V or on the net.To substantiate my claim ,I present the above quote.

Life spans of human beings increased only after invention of anti-biotics in post-WW-II period when scientific temper and atheism reached an all-time high.Before that what you call child abuse now used to be more or less a universal norm. Yohan sneered at the pagan Greek classical culture that existed prior to entire forced Christianisation of Europe as being that which is grossly unjust towards young boys.

Re: "dancing" boys...

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:41 pm
by frankie
This sexual exploitation and abuse of children is being perpetrated under the eyes of Muslim clerics, which makes a very good case that these very clerics are either in full agreement with it, or are themselves taking part in this sexual depravity, which would prevent them from doing anything to stop it.

If this activity is so against the Islamic faith, then why is it being practiced so freely amongst Muslims?

Re: "dancing" boys...

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:06 pm
by manfred
You are telling me that this is based on some comment, without sources by someone called "crazy monkey"?

Marriage in ancient Greece was a complex issue, and there were arranged marriages, but men married typically around 30 and women often much younger, 14 to 16 perhaps, but not always so. Marriage was seen as a moral duty in Greece, and in Rome, for a time it always was a legal duty. You would have to pay extra taxes if you were unmarried beyond a certain age.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_ ... ent_Greece

As to "homosexuality" is ancient Greece (there was no such concept in the ancient world) the was a custom of relationships between older men and boys between about 12 to 17 in ancient Greece, but is was not purely exploitative, it was also an agreement to provide some education, for example. It was seen as a sort of rite of passage from childhood to adulthood. While is was common for there to be also some sexual acts, penetrative sex in that situation was frowned upon and unusual. And the boy had the right to refuse at any time. Also the older man was almost always a member of the aristocracy, so the scale of this was quite limited.

Plato described this practice variously, but is final comments were very negative.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexua ... ent_Greece

The Greek practice was seedy and by our standards morally indefensible, the Afghan and Muslim practice is always sexually exploitative, promiscuous, and degrading, even endangering life. There is no attempt to provide anything for the kid, he is merely a piece of meat for people to enjoy.

Muslims refer to the time before Islam as the period of ignorance. Then they blame all their own shortcomings on people from that era. By the time Islam started, this practice had been dead elsewhere for a good 500 years. So why was it resurrected in this twisted way?

Re: "dancing" boys...

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:53 pm
by Nosuperstition
but men married typically around 30


I do not trust the above statement.By the way wikipedia is not a trusted information source while debating.Anyone can edit it.If you can open the old forum,I will bring in quotes from quite trusted and knowledgeable forum members who have affirmed what crazy monkie said.

Re: "dancing" boys...

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:57 pm
by Nosuperstition
frankie wrote:This sexual exploitation and abuse of children is being perpetrated under the eyes of Muslim clerics, which makes a very good case that these very clerics are either in full agreement with it, or are themselves taking part in this sexual depravity, which would prevent them from doing anything to stop it.

If this activity is so against the Islamic faith, then why is it being practiced so freely amongst Muslims?


There have been instances of Muslims , sometimes quite famous ones resorting to this present day perversion,however according to one Islamic source,the throne of Allah shakes violently as and when one instance of it happens on earth.Of course those who would have got good education with regards to contradictions and abrogations might not trust it or put that teaching to practice.

Re: "dancing" boys...

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:26 pm
by manfred
So, NS, a wiki article, with sources and footnotes.... invalid. "crazy monkey" .... 100% valid at all times, even if he does not even mention Bactrian kings. A bit odd perhaps?

And given that Mohammed himself abused children, at least one girl and two boys, according to Islamic sources, does it surprise you that child abuse is institutionalised in Muslim societies? You find it in various forms all over the Muslim world, and it is generally silently tolerated.

The present day practice of the "dancing boys" as institutional child abuse is not descended or caused by some alleged and unproven practices of a long gone society, over 2000 years ago. It is based on Mohammed's example. That is why it is more or less tolerated, and not because of some long gone culture.

Re: "dancing" boys...

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:22 pm
by Nosuperstition
manfred wrote:So, NS, a wiki article, with sources and footnotes.... invalid. "crazy monkey" .... 100% valid at all times, even if he does not even mention Bactrian kings. A bit odd perhaps?

And given that Mohammed himself abused children, at least one girl and two boys, according to Islamic sources, does it surprise you that child abuse is institutionalised in Muslim societies? You find it in various forms all over the Muslim world, and it is generally silently tolerated.

The present day practice of the "dancing boys" as institutional child abuse is not descended or caused by some alleged and unproven practices of a long gone society, over 2000 years ago. It is based on Mohammed's example. That is why it is more or less tolerated, and not because of some long gone culture.


It is Bactrian , not Bactian as you often seem to write.

People in this forum itself dismissed wiki sources as being un-reliable as they can be edited by anyone and the veracity of the sources they mention cannot be accurately verified.For example picking one or two examples does not fit the criterion of statistically average.

https://study.com/academy/lesson/average-age-of-marriage-throughout-history.html

The above link I gave gives a different picture.

Re: "dancing" boys...

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:59 pm
by manfred
I can find one spelling error (?), sorry about that. I do not have very good eyesight, so I tend to sometime miss them.

Marriage in ancient world varied somewhat from culture to culture. In general WOMEN married much younger than men. The "boy love" thing in ancient Greece was definitely ALWAYS before marriage, and it ranged from about 12 to maybe 16 or 17, as younger than that was not acceptable even then, and it generally stopped when the "boy" started growing a beard. Men COULD marry younger, rarely before 20 in Greece though, as the man was expected to provide for his wife. In general, men married at about the same age as they do today, but women somewhat earlier, as they often relied on a man to meet they everyday needs.

And the people who dismiss wiki are generally the Muslims. I am not saying there are never inaccuracies in any of the articles, but they can be corrected by people who spot them. So there are not huge amounts. There is perhaps a certain bias to the "mainstream" but the articles often provide a short useful summary., a sort of introductory information.

In Greece there was no lower limit stated IN LAW for marriage, but the custom was as I mentioned. You will find the same summary in the Encyclica Britannica for example, and almost all history textbooks on Greece, some of which the wiki article quotes.

And as always, you are doing the Muslim thing.... whenever something comes up that shows Islam in a bad light, you try to derail the topic.

So it seems institutionalised child abuse is just fine by you as Muslims have every right to abuse children... the was a culture over 2000 years ago that did something similar.

There was another culture in the Middle East that sacrificed children by burning them. Does that justify torturing children to death today? According to you, probably only if you are a Muslim.

And what is an "average to you?

Here are three test scores of two children (out of 10):

5, 5, 5
and the other
1, 4, 10

On average they both scored 5. One is probably working at his ability, and scores 5 persistently. The other is rapidly improving.

Averages do NOT provide a full picture at the best of times.

Re: "dancing" boys...

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:20 pm
by manfred
And... NS as you rightly mention, old Mo said this:
"WHEN A MAN MOUNTS ANOTHER MAN, THE THRONE OF ALLAH SHAKES"-


Given that there are about 7.5 billion humans, half of which are male, and some 10% of those are "gay", this leaves about 375 Million gay men on the planet... These do have sex, you know, quite often, specially when young.... Allah's throne must be very wobbly and uncomfortable. Maybe he should sit somewhere else.... I am concerned Allah may get haemorrhoids because of sitting on his shaky contraption too long.

Also, notice how Mohammed mentions two MEN.... not a man and boy, for example... Sucking a boy's penis is just fine, for example, as Mohammed did just that, to two different boys.

Re: "dancing" boys...

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:35 pm
by Nosuperstition
So it seems institutionalised child abuse is just fine by you as Muslims have every right to abuse children... the was a culture over 2000 years ago that did something similar.


No to the extant through which I have read,child abuse in the form of either child marriage or child sex was always prevalent up until modern times.Some say that in fact in classical societies ,the age of marriage was much later than in the medieval Christian periods when early marriage was almost a norm.However most written records kept by the Roman census supposedly mention that even in classical periods,age of marriage was definitely not that high as was mentioned in the above link.

Re: "dancing" boys...

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:40 pm
by Nosuperstition
There was another culture in the Middle East that sacrificed children by burning them. Does that justify torturing children to death today? According to you, probably only if you are a Muslim.


Throughout the world twenty five thousand children die every day in accordance with the theory of Malthus.And in India alone that number is five thousand.So is not death by starvation a very painful way of sacrificing children as demanded by the Omnipotent God who can ameliorate their suffering by blessing the earth with enough grain to feed them all,but chooses not to do so?

I have stated only once that if I am an infant to be sacrificed as part of planned parenthood,I would not mind provided I do not feel any pain.If I feel pain,I yearn for revenge of the same form from those that have caused harm and pain to me.

Re: "dancing" boys...

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:06 pm
by manfred
We do have enough food to feed everybody. We also have political institutions like the EU that choose to horde food in silos to keep the prices high.


And you are changing the subject all over again, making "God" the scapegoat for human folly.

And you are making excuses for child abuse by suggesting that a younger age of MARRIAGE (perhaps 14 for girls) over 2000 years ago justifies Muslim sexual abuse of boys TODAY.

You even support child sacrifice to prop up indefensible institutional behaviour in Muslim societies.

Let me spell it out: According to you it is perfectly fine for group of 40 year old Muslim men to anally penetrate a young boy every day because some girls married aged 14 in classical Greece. He can have his sphincter muscle and lower intestine ripped to bloody shreds daily, for years, and he better like it because people married at a younger age 2000 years ago. I am sure he will understand perfectly when you explain it to him, and appreciate your help.

Re: "dancing" boys...

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:22 pm
by Nosuperstition
manfred wrote:We do have enough food to feed everybody. We also have political institutions like the EU that choose to horde food in silos to keep the prices high.


And you are changing the subject all over again, making "God" the scapegoat for human folly.

And you are making excuses for child abuse by suggesting that a younger age of MARRIAGE (perhaps 14 for girls) over 2000 years ago justifies Muslim sexual abuse of boys TODAY.

You even support child sacrifice to prop up indefensible institutional behaviour in Muslim societies.

Let me spell it out: According to you it is perfectly fine for group of 40 year old Muslim men to anally penetrate a young boy every day because some girls married aged 14 in classical Greece. He can have his sphincter muscle and lower intestine ripped to bloody shreds daily, for years, and he better like it because people married at a younger age 2000 years ago. I am sure he will understand perfectly when you explain it to him, and appreciate your help.


I haven't actually looked into the whole of video.My microphones weren't working on that day.Only remember having seen the advertisement on RT.I do not know what age men penetrate which age boys.Anyway I more than in classical Greece ,child abuse was even more widely prevalent in medieval Christendom for people got married back then at an even younger age.Child abuse in the form of child marriage has been going on in this world for more than 2000 years in all cultures,not just 2000 years back in classical Greece.If you really find child abuse reason enough to demonise whole countries and cultures,then first get all those medieval Christians excommunicated.Also you have to set aside the Talmund or some other Jewish text which allows a priest to marry a very very young girl of 3 years.Go figure out.

https://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Judaism/talmud_child_sex.htm

Re: "dancing" boys...

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:40 pm
by manfred
"everybody is doing "it"" ... that is your excuse. You still don't get it. In every society and at any age there were people who abused children. That does not justify child abuse. In MUSLIM society, uniquely, the child abuse is INSTITUTIONALISED. It is PART of society, not something some deviant individuals do.

The Qu'ran speaks of the "serving boys", Muslim men have "dancing boys". Islamic teaching sanctions child abuse in every conceivable form. The Qur'an speaks of it as a "reward" in paradise, and Mohammed himself of course was a child abuser. It would be highly surprising if this had not influenced Muslims beliefs and actions.

And true to form, when this is pointed out, other people are blamed, anyone, only not the people who are doing it.

As to "child marriage" in the middle ages, this really has nothing at all to do with the issue raised. A child marriage was an agreement between parents and guardians for reasons of alliance and property. When two very young people married, sex was not even an issue. In fact, such a marriage could and sometimes was dissolved simply because no intercourse had taken place.

And shame on you for promoting Jew-baiting junk about the talmud. This is a nefarious lie and you can see a detailed response here:

http://talmud.faithweb.com/articles/three.html
or here
http://www.aish.com/atr/Misquoting_the_Talmud.html

Re: "dancing" boys...

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:24 pm
by manfred
"The throne of Allah shakes"...

This hadith is a rather curious one. It clearly states that there are some action human being do that cause a disturbance to Allah's own world. So humans can mess up Allah's realm. In other words people have power over Allah...

The things that cause this this "disturbance" are also very curious... not genocide, not institutional child abuse or gang rape, not murder or homicide, not war crimes or torture, no, the thing that "upsets" Allah's world are, of all things, whatever two grown men may or may not do in the privacy of their homes. Allah's throne is not affected by things we would even consider a serious issue. A raped and murdered child... Allah' throne does not react, 6 million Jews killed in concentration camps, no problem, a penis in the anus of a man, Allah's throne goes crazy.

Does that sound right to you?

Re: "dancing" boys...

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:17 pm
by Fernando
Nosuperstition wrote:Throughout the world twenty five thousand children die every day in accordance with the theory of Malthus.And in India alone that number is five thousand.So is not death by starvation a very painful way of sacrificing children as demanded by the Omnipotent God who can ameliorate their suffering by blessing the earth with enough grain to feed them all,but chooses not to do so?
You misunderstand Malthus. His argument was not that god will inevitably fail to provide food, but that population will inevitably grow to eat all the food available and then starve through overpopulation. Thus the "green revolution" brought about by chemical fertilisers caused a massive increase in the world populaton: this outgrew even the new abundance and children began to starve. More children than were then starving than before the green revolution. One might argue the same about modern medicine cutting infant mortality - it also helped population growth and subsequent starvation.
Of course, it has all been made massively worse by man's inhumanity to man, whereby resources have been destroyed by fighting.

Re: "dancing" boys...

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:11 pm
by Nosuperstition
And shame on you for promoting Jew-baiting junk about the talmud. This is a nefarious lie and you can see a detailed response here:


In the old forum,a Jewish member reminded people that Hinduism finished off Buddhism in the sub-continent.Now he did not mention that Buddhism co-existed with Hinduism for millenia and was still present in some pockets even as Islam arrived/invaded which might have forced rulers of other areas to opt for a Hinduism,a tougher religion by sub-continental standards.Now that is half-lie and none found fault with him for not telling the whole truth.

Yes it is understandable and it is indeed justified for the Jews being touchy for they are a tiny race or religion compared with others however how can I get banished for months together and he get away without getting to hear any opposite view at all?