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punishment for theft in Sharia

PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:33 pm
by Nosuperstition
I vaguely remember having read somewhere that in the Sharia one's hands or legs get amputated if found guilty of theft.In the staunchly Hindu Empire of Vijaya Nagar of South India,amongst the Hindu Malayalees it was the practice to enforce capital punishment if a labourer is found guilty of stealing even one nut of the farm.Therefore stealing was out of question as had been reported by the then famous Muslim traveler Ibn Batuta. So when I began comparing both these punishments,I have got some questions from my mind.

Is only a single hand amputated per Sharia for those found guilty of theft or are both hands amputated or are both legs amputated or only a single leg amputated?I want to know which punishment is a harsher one,the Hindu one or the Muslim one.May be it is just a matter of perception,however I want to assess things from the framework of my own mind?

Re: punishment for theft in Sharia

PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:51 pm
by Nosuperstition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DboLkpd4MrU

In the above link God Siva when the time scale of the video song reaches 3:15,the below words are uttered.

Niluvella tulaleni tudileni jaali nelakonna lalitendu mouli.

They mean that lord of Lalitha ,with a crescent in his hair locks is filled from top to bottom with incomparable and endless compassion.Yet people implemented quite draconian laws of capital punishment in his name.

Re: punishment for theft in Sharia

PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:09 pm
by manfred
Sharia specifies the amputation of one hand and one foot, on opposite sides. A repeat offender has the remaining limbs cut off.

In Hinduism the punishment (danda) is discussed in some detail on a philosophical level, something not found in Shariah, which merely copies action of teachings of Mohammed.

Hindu teachings identify four reasons for punishment:

1) incapacitation. Prevent the offender from doing the same again.
2) Retribution. Inflict the evil the the offender has done in a similar way back onto him. (Less prominent in Hindu teaching)
3) Deterrence. Make an example of the offender to deter others from doing the same.
4) Rehabilitation. Punish is such a way as to improve the character of the offender.

It is within these four dimensions that punishments are decided, and there is a degree of freedom for the judge as to where he wants to go, depending on the case, the circumstances of the defendant, and also on the personality of the judge.


So, your example... stealing a nut.... A death sentence would incapacitate, as would the usual cutting off of a hand. There would also serve as a deterrent. In fact this latter was the most common punished dished out in the Hindu kingdoms for theft, not the death penalty.

But for a first offender, or a young person or someone stealing out of hunger, other paths are open to the judge. Much would also depend on the attitude of the accused.

So, in short, shariah is prescriptive, Hindu jurisdiction more case based and principle based. Both have by modern standards barbaric punishments, as indeed have all ancient legal systems.

The difference is that shariah cannot reform as the ONLY criteria for a punishment is what Mohammed did in such a case.

Re: punishment for theft in Sharia

PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:42 pm
by SAM
Tell me how many millions of Muslims who are stealing, burglary, looting, robbery, shoplifting, theft and so on, their hands or legs amputated or cut off by Sharia punishments.

Re: punishment for theft in Sharia

PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:47 pm
by manfred
That was not the question SAM. In many Muslim countries shariah is not implemented or only partially so. However, in places like Saudi Arabia or Iran the punishment is carried out.

Many Muslims claim that shariah is "divine" law, and Allah ordered these punishments, but at the same time are lukewarm about implementing it, except when it suits them, such as to cheaply divorce a wife.

This is an indication that Islam is declining....

Re: punishment for theft in Sharia

PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:49 pm
by Fernando
SAM wrote:Tell me how many millions of Muslims who are stealing, burglary, looting, robbery, shoplifting, theft and so on, their hands or legs amputated or cut off by Sharia punishments.
I can't speak about numbers, but such chopping was shown in videos when IS was rampant - and the practitioners were clearly pretty experienced.

Re: punishment for theft in Sharia

PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:54 am
by SAM
manfred wrote:That was not the question SAM. In many Muslim countries shariah is not implemented or only partially so. However, in places like Saudi Arabia or Iran the punishment is carried out.
Then how many Muslims, who were accused of theft, their hands or legs amputated or cut off by Iran and Saudi Arabia.

Many Muslims claim that shariah is "divine" law, and Allah ordered these punishments, but at the same time are lukewarm about implementing it, except when it suits them, such as to cheaply divorce a wife.

This is an indication that Islam is declining....


Christianity Capital Punishment

Capital punishment was accepted as part of God's great design, and no attempt was made to ban it by any right thinking Christian.

In the Middle Ages capital punishment was inflicted for religious offences. Examples included robbing a church, sacrilege, eating meat during lent, cremating the dead, and omitting to be baptised .

Petty vandalism against Church property also attracted the death penalty. Churchmen advocated not only the death penalty but also a range of accompanying horrors. Criminals were hanged in chains. Sometimes bodies were gibbeted, i.e. they were coated in tar to preserve them, then hung high up on a post, often in sight of their family home, where the birds and the weather would destroy them only after months or years. Some victims were hanged, drawn, and quartered, after which their heart would be held up to the crowd, and their severed head would be stuck on a spike and left in some prominent place for everyone to see.

Here is a typical sentence:

You shall be drawn upon a hurdle through the open streets to the place of execution, there to be hanged and cut down while yet alive, and your body shall be opened, and your heart and bowels plucked out, and your privy members cut off, and thrown into the fire before your eyes; then your head to be struck off, and your body divided into four quarters, to be disposed of at the King's pleasure…

Christians passed capital laws based on biblical injunctions.

CAPITAL LAWES.

IF any man after legal conviction shall HAVE OR WORSHIP any other God, but the LORD GOD: he shall be put to death. Exod. 22. 20. Deut. 13. 6. & 10. Deut. 17. 2. 6.

2. If any man or woman be a WITCH, that is, hath or consulteth with a familiar spirit, they shall be put to death. Exod. 22. 18. Levit. 20. 27. Deut. 18. 10. 11.

3. If any person within this Jurisdiction whether Christian or Pagan shall wittingly and willingly presume to BLASPHEME the holy Name of God, Father, Son or Holy-Ghost, with direct, expresse, presumptuous, or high-handed blasphemy, either by wilfull or obstinate denying the true God, or his Creation, or Government of the world: or shall curse God in like manner, or reproach the holy Religion of God as if it were but a politick device to keep ignorant men in awe; or shal utter any other kinde of Blasphemy of the like nature & degree they shall be put to death. Levit. 24, 15. 16.

4. If any person shall commit any wilfull MURTHER, which is Man slaughter, committed upon premeditate malice, hatred, or crueltie not in a mans necessary and just defence, nor by meer casualty against his will, he shall be put to death. Exod. 21. 12. 13. Numb. 35. 31.

5. If any person slayeth another suddenly in his ANGER, or CRUELTY of passion, he shall be put to death. Levit. 24. 17. Numb. 35. 20. 21.

6. If any person shall slay another through guile, either by POYSONING, or other such develish practice, he shall be put to death. Exod. 21. 14.

7. If any man or woman shall LYE WITH ANY BEAST, or bruit creature, by carnall copulation; they shall surely be put to death: and the beast shall be slain, & buried, and not eaten. Lev. 20, 15. 16.

8. If any man LYETH WITH MAN-KINDE as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed abomination, they both shal surely be put to death: unles the one partie were forced (or be under fourteen years of age in which case he shall be seveerly punished) Levit. 20. 13.

9. If any person commit ADULTERIE with a married, or espoused wife; the Adulterer & Adulteresse shal surely be put to death. Lev. 20. 19. & 18. 20. Deu. 22. 23. 27.

10. If any man STEALETH A MAN, or Man-kinde, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 21. 16.

11. If any man rise up by FALSE-WITNES wittingly, and of purpose to take away any mans life: he shal be put to death. Deut. 19. 16. 18. 16.

12. If any man shall CONSPIRE, and attempt any Invasion, Insurrection, or publick Rebellion against our Common-Wealth: or shall indeavour to surprize any Town, or Townes, Fort, or Forts therin; or shall treacherously, & persidiously attempt the Alteration and Subversion of our frame of Politie, or Government fundamentally he shall be put to death. Numb. 16. 2 Sam. 3. 2 Sam. 18. 2 Sam. 20.

13. If any child, or children, above sixteen years old, and of sufficient understanding, shall CURSE, or SMITE their natural FATHER, or MOTHER; he or they shall be put to death: unles it can be sufficiently testified that the Parents have been very unchristianly negligent in the eduction of such children; or so provoked them by extream, and cruel correction; that they have been forced therunto to preserve themselves from death or maiming. Exod. 21. 17. Lev. 20. 9. Exod. 21. 15.

14. If a man have a stubborn or REBELLIOUS SON, of sufficient years & uderstanding (viz) sixteen years of age, which will not obey the voice of his Father, or the voice of his Mother, and that when they have chastened him will not harken unto them: then shal his Father & Mother being his natural parets, lay hold on him, & bring him to the Magistrates assembled in Court & testifie unto them that their Son is stubborn & rebellious & will not obey their voice and chastisement, but lives in sundry notorious crimes, such a son shal be put to death. Deut. 21. 20. 21.

15. If any man shal RAVISH any maid or single woman, comitting carnal copulation with her by force, against her own will; that is above the age of ten years he shal be punished either with death, or with some other greivous punishmet according to circumstances as the Judges, or General court shal determin.

Re: punishment for theft in Sharia

PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:09 am
by SAM
Fernando wrote:
SAM wrote:Tell me how many millions of Muslims who are stealing, burglary, looting, robbery, shoplifting, theft and so on, their hands or legs amputated or cut off by Sharia punishments.
I can't speak about numbers, but such chopping was shown in videos when IS was rampant - and the practitioners were clearly pretty experienced.
Since Islam exists (1400 years) Are there millions of Muslims and Kafirs who are stealing, burglary, looting, robbery, shoplifting, theft and so on, their hands or legs amputated or cut off by Sharia Laws capital punishments.

Re: punishment for theft in Sharia

PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:44 am
by manfred
SAM, for the umptienth time, the "laws" of Leviticus as part of a religious treatise, not an actual codex of law. They spell out what the author thinks people who do certain things "deserve". They are not "Christian law" but Jewish religious writings by a Jerusalem temple priest. The do not, and never did, form the basis for Christian law. As a matter of fact, not really for Jewish law either. As have previously shown when NS asked this, actual Jewish practice was very different.

And we are talking about cruel and unusual punishments such as amputation for theft. The death penalty for murder, as upheld in some countries, is not equivalent.

Re: punishment for theft in Sharia

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:32 am
by glitch
SAM wrote:Tell me how many millions of Muslims who are stealing, burglary, looting, robbery, shoplifting, theft and so on, their hands or legs amputated or cut off by Sharia punishments.


I can tell you sam. more muslims than any jews or christians ever. since only muslims are the people who punished this way.

Re: punishment for theft in Sharia

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:04 am
by SAM
glitch wrote:
SAM wrote:Tell me how many millions of Muslims who are stealing, burglary, looting, robbery, shoplifting, theft and so on, their hands or legs amputated or cut off by Sharia punishments.


I can tell you sam. more muslims than any jews or christians ever. since only muslims are the people who punished this way.
Have you ever been to any Islamic country, if so, how many Muslims and the Kafirs their hands have been cut off or amputation for stealing, burglary, looting, robbery, shoplifting, theft and so on...

Re: punishment for theft in Sharia

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:11 am
by SAM
manfred wrote:SAM, for the umptienth time, the "laws" of Leviticus as part of a religious treatise, not an actual codex of law. They spell out what the author thinks people who do certain things "deserve". They are not "Christian law" but Jewish religious writings by a Jerusalem temple priest. The do not, and never did, form the basis for Christian law. As a matter of fact, not really for Jewish law either. As have previously shown when NS asked this, actual Jewish practice was very different.

And we are talking about cruel and unusual punishments such as amputation for theft. The death penalty for murder, as upheld in some countries, is not equivalent.
And tell me, which 28 European countries is a Christian state is a country that recognizes the form of the Capital Law of Christianity?


On God's behalf, English churchmen confirmed in the early nineteenth century that it was perfectly acceptable to tear out the heart and bowels of condemned but still living men. Some clergymen advocated hanging whether the accused was guilty or not. One argument was that capital punishment was a deterrent for the criminally inclined, so the guilt or innocence of the individual on trial was irrelevant*. Another was that all sins are equally damnable in the eyes of God, so the extreme penalty was appropriate for all*.

Re: punishment for theft in Sharia

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:12 am
by manfred
All of Europe is predominantly Christian, except Estonia, which is predominantly atheist. Unlike Islam, Christianity is a real religion and not a political ideology masquerading as a religion, so there is no such thing as "The Christian republic of...."

There is only one country left in all of Europe that has the death penalty, Belarus, a communist (totalitarian, like Islam) dictatorship.

In the Muslim world Turkey does not have the death penalty because for a time it wanted to join the EU, but it is now considering to reintroduce it. Also some mostly Muslim former Soviet Republics have followed the Russian example and abolished it, but not all. Other than that pretty much all Muslim countries have death penalties, but not only for murder also for daft things such as "insulting the prophet"...

And again, the retention of the death penalty for serious crimes is not equivalent to the cutting off of hands for trivia such as stealing some bread.

So SAM, are you embarrassed by Islamic barbaric laws, so much so that you need to try to drag other down to to that level?

Re: punishment for theft in Sharia

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:30 am
by Nosuperstition
manfred wrote:That was not the question SAM. In many Muslim countries shariah is not implemented or only partially so. However, in places like Saudi Arabia or Iran the punishment is carried out.

Many Muslims claim that shariah is "divine" law, and Allah ordered these punishments, but at the same time are lukewarm about implementing it, except when it suits them, such as to cheaply divorce a wife.

This is an indication that Islam is declining....



Manu 3.12. For the first marriage of twice-born men (wives) of equal caste are recommended; but for those who through desire proceed (to marry again) the following females, (chosen) according to the (direct) order (of the castes), are most approved.
Manu 3.13. It is declared that a Sudra woman alone (can be) the wife of a Sudra, she and one of his own caste (the wives) of a Vaisya, those two and one of his own caste (the wives) of a Kshatriya, those three and one of his own caste (the wives) of a Brahmana.
Manu 3.15. Twice-born men who, in their folly, wed wives of the low (Sudra) caste, soon degrade their families and their children to the state of Sudras.
Manu 3.17. A Brahmana who takes a Sudra wife to his bed, will (after death) sink into hell; if he begets a child by her, he will lose the rank of a Brahmana.


https://www.quora.com/Why-is-inter-caste-marriage-bad-according-to-Hinduism

Now at attributetohinduism site,I have read a Manusmriti verse which does indeed give permission to take a Shudra wife if indeed she is good.Now at islam4all site,they mentioned that Manu,the lawgiver waxed eloquently on how some Brahmins of his day were disregarding his advice of marriages of hierarchy and were taking the Shudra women as their first wives.That was when Hinduism was in its expansionist phase and when it had to accomodate natives of different regions much similar to the desires expressed by those agitating for the formation of a separate state of Telangana in India..

Now Muslims too were allowed polygamy upto 4 wives + something else when they were in their expansionist phase.White Spaniards marrying polygamously with natives+something else of the New World also had the blessings of the Catholic church.

Now Manusmriti or the laws of Manu were codified much later when the society became complacent and inclined for hereditary monogamous privileges.Much similar to Sharia,Manusmriti also was framed in the name of the Self-Existent Divine entity.Yet the fact that it could more or less become obselete perhaps shows that the Sharia can also become obsolete inspite of claims of divine sanction once Muslim society also becomes complacent and inclined more so towards hereditary monogamous privileges.

Re: punishment for theft in Sharia

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:42 am
by SAM
manfred wrote:All of Europe is predominantly Christian, except Estonia, which is predominantly atheist. Unlike Islam, Christianity is a real religion and not a political ideology masquerading as a religion, so there is no such thing as "The Christian republic of...."

There is only one country left in all of Europe that has the death penalty, Belarus, a communist (totalitarian, like Islam) dictatorship.

In the Muslim world Turkey does not have the death penalty because for a time it wanted to join the EU, but it is now considering to reintroduce it. Also some mostly Muslim former Soviet Republics have followed the Russian example and abolished it, but not all. Other than that pretty much all Muslim countries have death penalties, but not only for murder also for daft things such as "insulting the prophet"...

And again, the retention of the death penalty for serious crimes is not equivalent to the cutting off of hands for trivia such as stealing some bread.

So SAM, are you embarrassed by Islamic barbaric laws, so much so that you need to try to drag other down to to that level?
Christian countries do not exist, that is why they say European countries, not Christian countries will be the future Islamic state and their secular system will be replaced by Sharia Laws.

Christianity is dying.... :lol:

Re: punishment for theft in Sharia

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:52 am
by manfred
In Europe parliaments are the source of law, not a murderous paedophile "prophet" and his henchmen. And you should be crowned the "Tu quoque king".

Also, please google "separation of church and state"... perhaps you finally get your head round the fact that real religions are not like Islam.

Re: punishment for theft in Sharia

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:32 am
by Nosuperstition
manfred wrote:All of Europe is predominantly Christian, except Estonia, which is predominantly atheist. Unlike Islam, Christianity is a real religion and not a political ideology masquerading as a religion, so there is no such thing as "The Christian republic of...."

There is only one country left in all of Europe that has the death penalty, Belarus, a communist (totalitarian, like Islam) dictatorship.

In the Muslim world Turkey does not have the death penalty because for a time it wanted to join the EU, but it is now considering to reintroduce it. Also some mostly Muslim former Soviet Republics have followed the Russian example and abolished it, but not all. Other than that pretty much all Muslim countries have death penalties, but not only for murder also for daft things such as "insulting the prophet"...

And again, the retention of the death penalty for serious crimes is not equivalent to the cutting off of hands for trivia such as stealing some bread.

So SAM, are you embarrassed by Islamic barbaric laws, so much so that you need to try to drag other down to to that level?


It is said that during some of the phases of the golden period of Hinduism in the sub-continent, i.e the Gupta Rule,death penalty was abolished.However invasion of Huns from North-West once again forced later day Gupta Emperors to re-instate death penalty.So Europe will also possibly see the death penalty being resurrected.

Re: punishment for theft in Sharia

PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 5:23 pm
by glitch
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Amputation_in_Islam (Still performed in Saudi Arabia.)

Re: punishment for theft in Sharia

PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:57 pm
by glitch