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Re: credendo videbis

PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:10 pm
by Nosuperstition
Whenever the lineage of a new-born was doubted, they would offer a sacrifice to it [Hubal] and then shuffle the arrows and throw them. If the arrothe word "pure," the child would be declared legitimate and the tribe would accept him. If, however, the arrows showed the words "consociated alien," the child would be declared illegitimate and the tribe would reject him. The third arrow was for divination concerning the dead, while the fourth was for divination concerning marriage. The purpose of the three remaining arrows has not been explained.


Now in my childhood I have read about trial by fire in India.It does not mean that your wife is actually asked to go through fire just like Ram is believed to have asked Sita but a short cut form in which a woman who went to visit her female friend in Mumbai against the wishes of her husband was refused entry by her in laws and therefore the village elders had to subject her to it.She was told to open up her palms to the full,a leaf was placed and a red hot iron was placed on the leaf.Surprisingly they said nothing happened to her and therefore she was accepted back.Now I understand that there might have been some sort of scientific liquid placed either on her palms or on the leaf placed on her hands or on the red hot iron that must have prevented her palms from getting burnt.Similar things might have been existent in pre-Islamic Arabia as pagans in general are known to be quite innovative from what I have read at the old forum.

Re: credendo videbis

PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:30 pm
by Fernando
Nosuperstition wrote:
"Allah is more exalted and more majestic[65]."


JoeJew and ohmyrus of the old forum respectively mentioned that Zeus,Supreme God of the Graeco-Roman world was an rapist and an adulterer and a bad ipso moto for their followers to follow.Perhaps Muhammad was also convinced by some members of the extensive Jewish tribes of the Arabian peninsula with whom he had trade contacts that while the Abrahamic God can only be held accountable on one criminal charge of murder in the form of abortions,pagan gods can be held to account for more than one crime.That might have convinced Muhammad to discard other Gods or gods or goddesses or Goddesses in favour of one God who later got morphed into One True God.
But Mohammed himself was guilty of more than one crime, NS! But when what the (singular??) monotheistic god guilty of abortion?

Re: credendo videbis

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:12 am
by Nosuperstition
But when what the (singular??) monotheistic god guilty of abortion?


Most abortions that happen in the world are said to be natural ones.Now monotheist Abrahamic God is said to be Omnipotent.And Abrahamic faiths do not believe in reincarnations.So aborted foetuses are not reaping the fruits of the karma of their previous births.So they are not guilty.So he is allowing abortions of guiltless foetuses even when it is within his power to stop them.So is He not guilty?

In accordance with the theory of Malthus,population increases in geometric proportions while food production increases only in arithmetic proportions.So Ominpotent Abrahamic God can also be held guilty of starvation murders when he does not increase food production even though it is well within his power to do so.

Of course while monotheist God is not an adulterer or rapist,he does seem to allow them for his followers.So he can also be held to account for allowing that for humans.

Re: credendo videbis

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:34 am
by SAM
manfred wrote:... not in a LEGAL text, in a RELIGIOUS text.
That's a lame excuse

Unlike in Singapore, there is a sizeable Iranian community in London. All you need to to do is to talk to them or follow the news, SAM.
I've personally met Palestinians, Israelis, Iranians, Arabs, Egyptians and others who work and live in my home town than you are.

Christianity originates from a person called Jesus Christ.
:lotpot: Show me the verse from the Bible that Jesus once stated that Christianity is a religion blessed by his Father.

And while you are are ranting on about "paganism" tell me the origin of the Kaaba and Ramadan, for example, but not the tripe Muslims say about that, the truth.
Already told you many times but you've been dotard. . Muhammad perfected Islam because it was the religion of Ibrahim and Allah.

And you are quoting ancient Jewish texts... And why are so obsessed with other people's religions, because you know yours is the most disgusting excuse for a religion there even was, perhaps? As your cannot defend you precious paedophile profit Mohammed, all you can do is to make silly remarks about other religions. You are like a man complaining about the dirty windows in a neighbour's house, while in his own house the roof has fallen in long ago, and the walls are collapsing.

And there is something else that seems to forever pass you by. Because something is written in an old book that does not automatically "prove" anything. You quote old texts selectively without considering the historical context and person of writer, and present t as absolute truth whenever it suits you. That is the most idiotic way to argue a case I can think of.

But you are not really here to discuss anything, are SAM?
Christians are unable to defend their religious attacks from Jews and Muslims. :hi: :turban:

Re: credendo videbis

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:56 am
by SAM
frankie wrote:
Correction

Many Christians don't know that Islam originate from Paganism.


Muslims are taught they worship the God of the Bible, which is not true, they worship a god already known to Mohammed and the pagan Arabs, it was the “greatest” of the idols held at the Kaaba,its name was Allah,Al Ilah, the Meccan “creator “god.

This Allah had a “wife” Al Lat,”the goddess” and intercessing “daughters”Al Uzza and Al Manet, whose intercession was sought by Mohammed and his tribe the Quraish when they circumambulated the Kaaba, which all Muslims still do today.

Mohammed just pronounced this chief god to be the only god, and got rid of the rest

The roots of Islam are provably pagan, Ramadan, Hajj, the veneration of a pagan relic, a stone, the worship of the “creator” god of Mecca are pre Islamic pagan rituals, kept to be part of the Islamic faith, which are still performed today by Muslims.

http://rrimedia.org/Worldviews/Islam/ra ... -its-roots

http://answering-islam.org/Books/Al-Kalbi/


http://answering-islam.org/Books/Al-Kalbi/uzza.htm


“We have been told that the Apostle of God once
mentioned al-Uzza saying, "I have offered a white sheep to al-'Uzza, while I was a follower of the religion of my people."
The Quraysh were wont to circumambulate the Ka'bah and say:

"By Allat and al-'Uzza,
And Manah, the third idol besides.
Verily they are the most exalted females[15]
Whose intercession is to be sought[16]."

These were also called "the Daughters of Allah[17]," and were supposed to intercede before God. When the Apostle of God was sent, God revealed unto him [concerning them] the following:

Have you seen Allat and al-'Uzza, and Manah the third
idol besides? What? Shall ye have male progeny and
God female? This indeed were an unfair partition! These
are mere names: ye and your fathers named them thus:
God hath not sent down any warranty in their regard[18]."



The moon god connection in Islam is the pagan idol Hubal, the tribal god of Mohammed,
“considered to be the consort of the goddess al-'Uzzā; the son of Manāt, and the brother of the moon god Wadd, and was the chief god of the town of Mecca and the Ka'aba during the rule of the Quraysh in Muhammads time.”


The Quraysh had also several idols in and around the Ka'bah. The greatest of these was Hubal[58]. It was, as I was told, of red agate, in the form of a man with the right hand broken off. It came into the possession of the Quraysh in this condition, and they, therefore, made for it a hand of gold. The first to set it up [for worship] was Khuzaymah ibn-Mudrikah ibn-al-Ya's'[59] ibn-Mudar[60]. Consequently it used to be called Khuzaymah's Hubal.
It stood inside the Ka'bah. In front of it were seven divination arrows (sing. qidh, pl. qidah or aqduh). On one of these arrows was written "pure" (sarih), and on another "consociated alien" (mulsag). Whenever the lineage of a new-born was doubted, they would offer a sacrifice to it [Hubal] and then shuffle the arrows and throw them. If the arrothe word "pure," the child would be declared legitimate and the tribe would accept him. If, however, the arrows showed the words "consociated alien," the child would be declared illegitimate and the tribe would reject him. The third arrow was for divination concerning the dead, while the fourth was for divination concerning marriage. The purpose of the three remaining arrows has not been explained. Whenever they disagreed concerning something, or purposed to embark upon a journey, or undertake some project, they would proceed to it [Hubal] and shuffle the divination arrows before it. Whatever result they obtained they would follow and do accordingly.
It was before [Hubal] that 'Abd-al-Muttalib[61] shuffled the divination arrows [in order to find out which of his ten children he should sacrifice in fulfilment of a vow he had sworn], and the arrows pointed to his son 'Abdullah, the father of the Prophet[62]. Hubal was also the same idol which abu-Sufyan ibn-Harb[63] addressed when he emerged victorious after the battle of Uhud[64], saying:

"Hubal, be thou exalted" (i.e. may thy religion triumph);
To which the Prophet replied:

"Allah is more exalted and more majestic[65]."
Muslims already know about pre-Islamic Arabs since they are still children studying Islam, nothing new about it except the infidels like you who just knew it. :*)

Christianity originates from Paganism roots, traditions, practices, and holidays. Many Christians know that Christianity is a mixture of many ancient belief systems, purely paganism derived from Mithraism, the worship of Osiris (ancient Egypt), and Zoroastrianism., etc, etc. :coffee:

Re: credendo videbis

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:19 am
by manfred
SAM you posts really are getting more idiotic by the day. Kindly either write a reasoned argument with sources or don't bother. Silly smilies are not a substitute for that.

That's a lame excuse

facts are not excuses.

I've personally met Palestinians, Israelis, Iranians, Arabs, Egyptians and others who work and live in my home town than you are.


That is not only very bad grammar, but also a blatant lie.

Show me the verse from the Bible that Jesus once stated that Christianity is a religion blessed by his Father.


You would like me to answer you in verses? Just post your posts as songs, and I post you some verses.

Already told you many times but you've been dotard. . Muhammad perfected Islam because it was the religion of Ibrahim and Allah.


Allah follows a religion??? So when Allah prays five times a day, who does he pray to?

And the Abraham thing has been debunked hundreds of times here. Repeating it over and over only shows you are unable to use your brain.
Christians are unable to defend their religious attacks from Jews and Muslims.


Says the guy who cannot string together two sentences together to justify his own "religion". And "religious attacks" are really more of a Muslim speciality. That is their way to defend Islam... kill the unbeliever, and Islam "wins".

Christianity originates from Paganism roots, traditions, practices, and holidays. Many Christians know that Christianity is a mixture of many ancient belief systems, purely paganism derived from Mithraism, the worship of Osiris (ancient Egypt), and Zoroastrianism., etc, etc.


yawn. Polemic slogans repeated over and over, despite having had answers many times.

So thank you for proving again that Islam rots your brain.

Re: credendo videbis

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:37 am
by frankie
Christianity originates from Paganism roots, traditions, practices, and holidays. Many Christians know that Christianity is a mixture of many ancient belief systems, purely paganism derived from Mithraism, the worship of Osiris (ancient Egypt), and Zoroastrianism., etc, etc.

Using the argument of paganism against Christianity does not alter any facts about Islam.

Islam still retains pre Islamic pagan rituals within its theology, Muslims still practice these same pre Islamic pagan rituals Mohammed and his tribe performed.

So SAM, are you going to jump this "sinking ship" now, like so many other Muslims who are finally coming to their senses, or remain apologising(living) within this provable deception until you are the last Muslim standing?

Re: credendo videbis

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:59 pm
by Nosuperstition
Leviticus is much later, and written during a time of religious and existential crisis for the people of Israel. It also says that eating prawn is an abomination worth death, and wearing clothing made from two different materials. So why has Mohammed, who according to you is so keen on following Leviticus to the letter, ignoring these? Do you have a cotton and polyester shirt, SAM? If yes, why have you not collected a sack of rocks, handed it to you family and asked them to stone you? And that prawn sate? Why are you still breathing?

Leviticus was never a law book or rule book to be followed, but a religious warning. The writer reiterates that adultery is forbidden in Mosaic law. He emphasises this by saying that it is a serious matter, something that "DESERVES" death even. In reality, this have never been carried out, as the article about Jewish history I quoted previously shows.


So now even the laws of Leviticus (perhaps meaning laws formulated by Levites or the hereditary priesthood of Jews all from originating from the pure blood of the person named Levi) are allegorical and/or metaphorical according to you?

Re: credendo videbis

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:31 pm
by manfred
So now even the laws of Leviticus (perhaps meaning laws formulated by Levites or the hereditary priesthood of Jews all from originating from the pure blood of the person named Levi) are allegorical and/or metaphorical according to you?


The text has been written by a Hebrew priest, or possibly several. They are not a legal textbook, but a religious text. Some of the Levites were also judges, but most were not. 1 Chronicles 23:4

And the judgements they ACTUALLY passed were not at all those SAM is so fond of. It is not an "allegorical" text, but it simply is a religious treatise, where the writer tries to admonish people about religious observance by suggesting how transgressions "should" be punished. Even the ancient Hebrew judges did not actually follow that, but had a different approach to actual judging, as I have shown, if you look at the source I gave.

The writer was quite a zealot for his days, and he was angry with his people, so he tried to yank them back to what he say the right path by painting a picture of a stark judgement which "by rights" should be imposed specially in the days of lax religious observance.

He succeeded to some extent in influencing his people, but it would be wrong to treat his comments as paragraphs of law. Suppose a man rapes a child. A writer in a magazine of similar says "He is worse than an animal. He should be killed slowly by having a sharp pole inserted into his rectum..."

That may have been his opinion or it may have been just hos repression of outrage.

In any case, it would be very silly to suggest that this comment is a statement of law.

Re: credendo videbis

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:38 pm
by Fernando
SAM wrote:Already told you many times but you've been dotard. . Muhammad perfected Islam because it was the religion of Ibrahim and Allah.
Blasphemy? Isn't that what it is, saying that Mohammed perfected Allah's work?

Re: credendo videbis

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:07 am
by iffo
@SAM
SAM you are still muslim ?. SAM I am sure you will agree with me that both bible and quran are idiotic books and an insult to any god.
I think both religions will eventually die out. But Islam will collapse faster than christanity. Because Islam is rigid because quran is caled word of god, so you can not change it. While Chrisanity made itself flexible so it can survive . Christanity will survive much longer than stupid 7th century barbaric islam.

Re: credendo videbis

PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:04 am
by SAM
iffo wrote:@SAM
SAM you are still muslim ?. SAM I am sure you will agree with me that both bible and quran are idiotic books and an insult to any god.
I think both religions will eventually die out. But Islam will collapse faster than christanity. Because Islam is rigid because quran is caled word of god, so you can not change it. While Chrisanity made itself flexible so it can survive . Christanity will survive much longer than stupid 7th century barbaric islam.
More Christians are dying in European nations. According to Pew. It says Christianity has lost more members than any other religion in recent years because of people changing their faith.

Re: credendo videbis

PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:35 pm
by Fernando
SAM wrote:
iffo wrote:@SAM
SAM you are still muslim ?. SAM I am sure you will agree with me that both bible and quran are idiotic books and an insult to any god.
I think both religions will eventually die out. But Islam will collapse faster than christanity. Because Islam is rigid because quran is caled word of god, so you can not change it. While Chrisanity made itself flexible so it can survive . Christanity will survive much longer than stupid 7th century barbaric islam.
More Christians are dying in European nations. According to Pew. It says Christianity has lost more members than any other religion in recent years because of people changing their faith.
There is a slow drift from Christianity, which began with the Enlightenment. What I think Iffo is suggesting is that there will be a catastrophic collapse of Islam as people come to realise its true nature. Shaking off theocracies, if they get the chance, will speed up the process.

Re: credendo videbis

PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:23 am
by iffo
SAM wrote:
iffo wrote:@SAM
SAM you are still muslim ?. SAM I am sure you will agree with me that both bible and quran are idiotic books and an insult to any god.
I think both religions will eventually die out. But Islam will collapse faster than christanity. Because Islam is rigid because quran is caled word of god, so you can not change it. While Chrisanity made itself flexible so it can survive . Christanity will survive much longer than stupid 7th century barbaric islam.
More Christians are dying in European nations. According to Pew. It says Christianity has lost more members than any other religion in recent years because of people changing their faith.


Christanity has a very strong message that of love. It is difficult to beat that. Love is everything . This message attracts lot of people to Christianity . Especially in this troubled world. Islam has no such message. It has message of hate. Hate this hate that. Which is a big turn off.

On this valentine day I ask you to give a kiss not only to your imaginary girl friend. But also give a kiss to a Hindu guy, one Jewish guy, one Christian guy and just love everybody. :wink:

Re: credendo videbis

PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:26 pm
by Nosuperstition
The answer given


λέγει αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς Οὐ λέγω σοι ἕως ἑπτάκις, ἀλλὰ ἕως ἑβδομηκοντάκις ἑπτά.
Jesus says to him, "I say to you not up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven!



This is in effect saying that you have no limit to your willingness to forgive.


viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18150&p=237335&hilit=seven+times#p237335

Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother who sins against me? Up to seven times?

http://biblehub.com/matthew/18-22.htm

Clearly that forgiveness applies only to a male prostitute not a female one.You are adding extensions and twisting what was written in the word of God to suit your interpretation.

Re: credendo videbis

PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:26 pm
by Nosuperstition
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18150&start=40

However much you may try to deny ,at one point of time,those laws were indeed followed literally going by what the Jewish apologist Josephus Flavius deposed before his Roman superiors.

Now the greatest part of offences with us are capital. As if any one be guilty of adultery: if any one force a virgin: if any one be so impudent as to attempt sodomy with a male: or if, upon another’s making an attempt upon him, he submits to be so used. There is also a law for slaves of the like nature, that can never be avoided. Moreover, if any one cheats another in measures, or weights, or makes a knavish bargain and sale; in order to cheat another: if any one steals what belongs to another; and takes what he never deposited: all these have punishments allotted them: not such as are met with among other nations, but more severe ones. And as for attempts of unjust behaviour towards parents; or for impiety against God, though they be not actually accomplished, the offenders are destroyed immediately


http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/apion-2.html

The severity of punishment for blasphemy in all the Abrahamic religions also has its origins in the Jewish law's theory and practice.That Jesus had to stop people from running amok with mob mentality for stoning an adulteress also shows that it was a common practice during his period.

Re: credendo videbis

PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:29 pm
by manfred
Clearly that forgiveness applies only to a male prostitute not a female one.You are adding extensions and twisting what was written in the word of God to suit your interpretation.


No, not at all. The "brother" is a hypothetical person whose sex is irrelevant. There has simply never been any such crazy notion in any Christian group that women are less worthy of forgiveness than men. In fact many translations actually say "brother and sister" or just "someone", but the Greek has "brother", in a general way.

Now, please read carefully what Josephus wrote.... does he say what the punishments are? He does however say, that only in ONE case the culprit is "immediately destroyed", blasphemy. What does that say about the to'evah laws from Leviticus? It says that a prostitute, would not, not even under Jewish legal practice of his day, be executed.

During the lifetime of Josephus (and since the Roman conquest in 63BC, about 90 years before Josephus wrote) the Jews were UNABLE to issue a formal death sentence, or indeed any sentence at all. All jurisdiction was in the hands of the Roman governor. Have a read of the account of the death of Jesus in the gospels. The Synhedrin accused Jesus of blasphemy, and THEN they took his to the Roman procurator. There they did not mention "blasphemy" but instead made a case against Jesus suggesting that he was a dangerous subversive, who declared himself king and wanted to overthrow Roman rule. The Roman governor was not convinced, and so he asked the people assembled what should happen to Jesus. Because the crowd present was assembled by the high priest and servants, they demanded his crucifixion. The governor reluctantly agreed, and the people and priest were pleased to have got rid of a troublesome preacher and at the same time to have made the impression they actually supported Roman rule.

It is true that at times there may have been lynch-justice being dished out to perceived "blasphemers" and even "prostitutes" but in reality the land was firmly under Roman law anyway.

In fact, the Jewish people never regained independence in judicial matters until the state of Israel was formed. So, if you want to find any case of a prostitute being executed by Jews, you have to go back well over 2000 years anyway, and then there are simply no recorded cases.

Re: credendo videbis

PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:20 am
by SAM
iffo wrote:Christanity has a very strong message that of love. It is difficult to beat that. Love is everything . This message attracts lot of people to Christianity .
Christianity has a very strong message, is DEAD. The church is converted into mosque. Christians continue to sink at a rapid rate.

Especially in this troubled world. Islam has no such message. It has message of hate. Hate this hate that. Which is a big turn off.
Actually Islam is growing worldwide.

On this valentine day .. one Jewish guy, one Christian guy and just love everybody.
You're right..they choose to be gay. :D

Re: credendo videbis

PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:33 am
by manfred
So, according to you, SAM, the message of love is dead and the message of hate prospers. And that is just fine with you. It's all about numbers.... eat sh!t, billions of flies cannot all be wrong....

And the "fastest growing religion" nonsense has been debunked here so many time I lost count, but apparently that does not mean you will stop repeating it over and over.

The reality is, SAM, were Islam is enforced the most, it it falling apart the fastest. I mentioned Iran to you before.

It saddens me that you so like to live in a world of hate, terror and bloodshed, the only "contribution" Islam has made to humanity in 1600 years. One day you will have to answer for this, and pointing your backside to the sky five times a day will not help you at all.

Re: credendo videbis

PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:18 am
by Nosuperstition
"fastest growing religion"


I , for once ,agree with SAM that Islam indeed might be the fastest growing religion.

Hombre wrote:WHAT ARE DEFENDING? Rampant corruptions, poverty, illiteracy, or backwardness so prevalent throughout Arab-Islamic countries.


viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18136&p=237149&hilit=Rampant#p237149

Factors such as corruption etc give rise to high infant mortality rates and as a result,people tend to have more babies so that a few of them might survive long enough to look after them in their old age when they would not be in a position to make a living by working.So birth rates would indeed turn Islam into the fastest growing religion.