Is it Mekkah or Petra?

Prove Islam is from God, why it is the 'One True Religion'.
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Takeiteasynow
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Re: Is it Mekkah or Petra?

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Update for al-Jamra: the stoning of the devil ritual

The previous link for Google Maps was pointing to the famous gateway, the Bab al-Siq. The factual location of the three Djinn-blocks is approximately 200 meters east, between Bakkah (The Siq) and Mina (modern Wadi Musa).

Google Maps Location: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Djinn ... 35.4640114" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Largest jamrah (al-jamrah al-kubrā) or jamrat al-ʿaqaba: direct west of the marker (Djinn Blocks)
Middle jamrah (al-jamrah al-wusṭā or al-Jamra al-Thaniya): direct east of the marker (Djinn Blocks)

Smallest jamrah (al-jamrah aṣ-ṣughrā, al-jamrah al-'ūlā):
Djinn block direct north of the road
Location: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Djinn ... 35.4640114" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for the feedback.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Takeiteasynow
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Re: Is it Mekkah or Petra?

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THE PETRA- MECCA CASE: Reconstructing the pre-Islamic pilgrimage (haij)

Case study: The holy city and its holy mountains - Ṣafa and Marwah

Many Islamic pilgrims have been disappointed with the two mountains from the hadiths, called Ṣafa and Marwah, as nowadays they are totally enclosed inside of the mosque building complex in Makkah (1) and appear to be no more than fifteen meters high.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... _Mecca.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
View at As-Safa mountain from the first floor in Makkah

These mountains played a significant role in the rituals pilgrims and Muhammad performed in the holy city of Islam. These rituals associated with Safa and Marwah include tawaf (the clockwise rotation around the Kaaba), the ritual of passing between the two mountains and Ramal, a rapid walk between two points.

Now wouldn't it be nice to bring these two fine mountains back to their original or real size?

Geographical references from the Hadeeth
  • Sunan of Abū Dawood 750 - “The Apostle of Allāh (peace be upon him) came and entered Mecca, and after the Apostle of Allāh (peace be upon him) had gone forward to the stone, and touched it, he went round the house (the Ka’ba). He then went to as-Ṣafa and climbed it so that he could look down at the house. Then he raised his hands began o make mention of Allāh as much as he wished and make supplication. The narrator said: The Anṣār were beneath him. The narrator Hashim said: He prayed and praised Allāh and asked him for what he wished to ask.”
  • Sunan of Abū Dawood 727 - Ar-Rabi’ ibn Saburah said on the authority of his father (Saburah): We went out along with the Apostle of Allāh (peace be upon him) till we reached Usfan, Suraqah ibn Mālik al-Mudlaji said to him: Apostle of Allāh, explain to us like the people as if they were born today. He said: Allāh, the exalted, has included this umrah in your ḥajj. When you come (to Mecca), and he who goes round the house (the Ka’bah), and runs between as-Ṣafa and al-Marwah, is allowed to take off Iḥrām except he who has brought the sacrificial animals with him.
  • Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī Ḥadīth 2:617 - And when he reached Mecca on the 4th of Dhū-al-Ḥijja he performed the ṭawāf round the Ka’ba and performed ṭawaf between Ṣafa and Marwa.
  • Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī Ḥadīth 2:685 - When the Prophet performed the ṭawāf of the Ka’ba, he did Ramal during the first three rounds and in the last four rounds he used to walk and while doing ṭawāf between Ṣafa and Marwa, he used to run in the midst of the rain water passage.
  • Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī Ḥadīth 4:583,4 - … Then she descended from Ṣafa and when she reached the valley, she tucked up her robe and ran in the valley like a person in distress and rouble, till she crossed the valley and reached the Marwa mountain where she stood and started looking, expecting to see somebody, but she could not see anybody. She repeated that (running between Ṣafa and Marwa) seven times.
  • Fiqh us-Sunnah 5:85 - … So, she climbed down Ṣafa and reached the valley. She struggled hard, crossed the valley and reached Marwah …
  • Ṣaḥīḥ al Bukhārī Ḥadīth 6:495 - “And warn your tribe of near kindred.” (26.214) was revealed, Allāh’s Apostle went out, and when he had ascended al-Ṣafa mountain, he shouted, “O Sabahah!” The people said, “Who is that?” “Then they gathered around him, whereupon he said, “Do you see? If I inform you that cavalrymen are proceeding up the side of this mountain, will you believe me?”
  • Fiqh us-Sunnah 5:86 - Ṣafa and Marwah as they used to do in the days of Jahiliyya while two idols were set on top of Ṣafa and Marwah.
  • Fiqh us-Sunnah 5:88a - Sa’īd bin Manṣūr reported that Saudah, the wife of ’Urwah bin al-Zubair performed Sa in between Ṣafa and Marwah and because she was a big and heavy woman, she completed it in three days.
  • Fiqh us-Sannah 5:90 - .. Then he walked toward Marwah and climbed it, until he could see the Ka’ba. There he made supplications as he had at Ṣafa.
To summarize:
  1. 1) Ṣafa and Marwa appear as mountains on either side of a large valley;
  • 2) There is a rain water passage between Safa and Marwah;
  • 3)From Safa mountain a pilgrim could look down at the House of God or Kaaba.
  • 4) From Marwah mountain one could overlook the valley.
  • 5) Pilgrims run or between Safa and Marwah;
  • 6) Tawaf is performed around the Kaaba and between Safa and Marwah;
  • 7) Ṣafa appears to be higher than Marwah as it acts as a military observation post.
  • 8) Each mountain had an idol on its top.
  • 9) The required seven crossings was sometimes experienced as an exhausting experience and could require up to three days to complete.
  • 10) A pilgrim would pass through a (city) gate on this way to Safa mountain.
  • 11) Both mountains had stairs that led to a high place or platform with a direct view over the valley (city).

Mountains and water management
The Nabatean city of Petra, surrounded by many holy mountains, had a advanced water supply and distribution system, originally based upon an open water channel from the spring at 'Ain Mousa. (2) Running over a distance of circa 8 kilometer to the city center this Nabatean aqueduct was part of a sophisticated and remarkable complex system of water management: interconnected cisterns, channels, reservoirs, dams and tunnels exploited multiple springs within and outside the city. (3)

The water channel between the spring at 'Ain Mousa passes though the Siq over a distance of 1200 meters. Along the left hand side of the Siq ran a (covered) water channel straight to the main shopping street of the city: Colonnade street. In classical architecture a colonnade is a long sequence of columns joined by their entablature, the superstructure of moldings and bands which lies horizontally above columns, resting on their capitals.

At the end of this once extravagant and luxurious road lies the triple or temenos gate that provides access to the sacred ground around the temple of Qasr Al-Bint. Colonnade street was paved in such a way that it curved from the middle to allow the draining of water, supported by a network of channels under the street level.

Along Colonnade street multiple reservoirs have been detected. Each reservoir may have been provided with water from multiple conveyers (water channels and pipelines). Opposite the Qasr Al-Bint temple the lowest end reservoir supplied water for rituals and religious events but most likely most resources were directed towards the “Petra garden and pool complex”, adjacent to the Great Temple complex and overlooking the Colonnaded Street. The center of this complex was a pool that could hold over two million liters of water.(4)

Important for this research is that the main facilities relied on water channels bring water from wells in and outside the city. These water channels were originally covered but most of them were destroyed by the earthquake of 363 AD and never rebuilt.(5) The oldest and primary water channel ran from Wadi Musa, through the Siq, to the main basins in Colonnaded Street.

If the holy city of Muhammad is Petra then the water channel running parallel to Colonnade Street, uncovered since the earthquake of 363 AD, is likely the place where the prophet of Islam run “in the midst of the rain water passage candidate” (Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī Ḥadīth 2:685). As both mountains appear on either side of the valley one will be positioned left and the other right of Colonnade street.

Safa, Marwah and Petra
The city center of Petra is situated in a large valley with mountains on either side. The following table lists those mountains that are essential for Nabatean religion and/or Petra's water supply.

Table: overview of mountains close to Petra's city center with its main temple complex, masjid haram, date tree garden etc

Mountain: Jabal al-Kuthbah
Position: East
High Place: Maybe
Direct view on city center: No
Entrance close to water passage: No
Entrance requires passing (city) gate: No
Height: circa 1000 meters
Location of entrance to mountain path: Stairs up to this mountain are located between the Palace Tomb and Sextius Florentinus Tomb.

Mountain: Jabal al-Madbah (Mountain of the altar)
Position: Southeast
High Place: Yes
Direct view on city center: No
Entrance close to water passage: Yes
Entrance requires passing (city) gate: No
Height: circa 1050 meters
Location of entrance to mountain path: Stairs up to the High Place on the 'Mountain of the Altar' begins near Qasr al-Bint at the end of the Colonnaded street

Mountain: Jabal al-Madras
Position: East
High Place: Yes
Direct view on city center: Yes
Entrance close to water passage: Yes
Entrance requires passing (city) gate: No
Height: circa 1000 meters
Location of entrance to mountain path: Starts between the Obelisk Tomb and Bab al Siq (gateway to the Siq)

Mountain: Um al-Beira (Umm el Biyara)
Position: West
High Place: (probably - archeological evidence has been destroyed deliberately)
Direct view on city center: Yes
Entrance close to water passage: Yes
Entrance requires passing (city) gate: Yes
Height: circa 1100 meters
Location of entrance to mountain path: yhe hike to the top of Umm Al-Biyara is a minimum half-day trip and starts at the western end of Colonnaded Street with a path between the Qasr Al-Bint temple and the fenced building at the foot of Jabal Al-Babis.

Mountain: Jabal al-Habis
Position: West
High Place: No (Crusader fortress)
Direct view on city center: Yes
Entrance close to water passage: Yes
Entrance requires passing (city) gate: Yes
Height: circa 900 meters
Location of entrance to mountain path: Close to Qasr Al-Bint at western end of Colonnaded Street

We can now attest the specifications provided by the hadeeth against our inventory of Petra's mountains.

As-Ṣafa
According to the hadeeth pilgrims could look down at the Ka'ba in 'Makkah' from Safa. As Jabal al-Kuthbah and Jabal al-Madbah have no view on the city this leaves us with three candidates: Umm el Biyara, Jabal al-Madras and Jabal al-Habis. A pilgrim would pass a (city) gate on its way to Safa. As the entrance to the mountains paths of al-Biyara and al-Habis are beyond the famous temenos gate of the Qasr-al-Bint al-Madras can be eliminated. Umm el Biyara, as the highest mountain of Petra and towering over al-Habis, would be most fitted as a military observation post.

The view from Umm al-Biyara includes the three main entrance ways into Petra (6):
  • the Siq, the tortuous narrow canyon leading from the southeast through the entire city;
  • northern road coming from the Dead Sea through al-Bayda and Umm Sayhoun;
  • Southwest way through the Wadi Thugra.
The strategic location of this summit offered the possibility of easy control of the wider Petra area and a small rectangular stone structure on the far southwestern edge of the plateau (7) was discovered in 2011, possibly a former Nabatean watchtower. (8) Obviously Umm al-Biyara is the best candidate to act as a military outpost.

Taking all other specifications into consideration only Umm el Biyara can be Safa mountain.

http://hat.net/album/middle_east/003_jo ... biyara.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
View at Umm al Biyaya (Mother of all cisterns) - As-Safa mountain

Marwah mountain
According to specifications from the hadeeth this mountain should be on the other side of the valley. As only one mountain on the east side of Petra has a direct view over its valley Jabal al-Madras mush be Marwah mountain.

The entrance of the Siq is near the mountain path that leads to the holy mountain of Al-Madras, a high place for worship to the Nabatean god "Dushara", with the famous Khazneh at its base. Main Nabatean deity Dushara literally lived in the House of God and was the 'God of Gaia' and 'God of Al-Madras'.

According an inscription mentioned by Ibn Ishaq 'Allah is the lord of Bakkah' and Bakkah will exist 'while its two mountains stand'.

Conclusion
As the prophet of Islam used to run in the midst of the rain water passage while doing ṭawāf between Ṣafa and Marwa. At Petra, between the entrances to the mountain paths of Umm al-Biyara and al-Madras, runs a circa 3300 meters long water channel. The hadeeth zoomed into the smallest details of Safa and Marwah which makes it possible to match Safa mountain with Umm el Biyara and Marwah with Jabal-al-Madras.

Locations

Safa mountain – Umm al-Biyara:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Petra ... 35.4443622" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Marwah mountain – Al Madras
https://www.google.com/maps/place/petra ... 35.4640114" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
(1) Quranic Geography, page 228
(2) Water, Live and Civillisation: Climate, Environmment and Society in the Jordan Valley, p 213
(3) ibid
(4) ibid
(5) The Hydraulic Infrastructure of Petra – A model for Water Strategies in Arid Land, Ueli Bellwald, p 61
(6) The hills have eyes: GIS-based studies on a possible watchtower on Umm al-Biyara, Men on The Rocks: The Formation of Nabatean Petram, p. 271
(7) The top of Umm al-Biyara is a flat plateau.
(8) The hills have eyes: GIS-based studies on a possible watchtower on Umm al-Biyara, Men on The Rocks: The Formation of Nabatean Petram, p. 270-272
Last edited by Takeiteasynow on Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:57 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Re: Is it Mekkah or Petra?

Post by Takeiteasynow »

THE PETRA- MECCA CASE: Reconstructing the (pre-)Islamic pilgrimage

Case study: The holy city and Al-Bayda

(Note: most of this research was taken from Dan Gibson's Quranic Geography but is mentioned here as an essential part of the reconstruction of the original Hajj.)

According to Islamic tradition in 629 CE Muslim armies marched north from Medina to fight Khaybar, a city that often opposed the Muslims. After their army defeated Khaybar, commander Ḥajjāj decided to go on to the Holy City because he had a wife, son and property there. Al Ṭabarī describes his arrival in the Holy City: “I departed and arrived in the Holy City. On the mountain trail at al Bayḍā I met some men from Quraysh who were eager to hear news and were asking about what happened to the Messenger of God. They had heard that he had gone to Khaybar and knew that it was the leading town in the Ḥijaz in fertility, defenses and men, so they were seeking news.”

Al-Bayḍā is mentioned numerous times in the hadith:
  • Al-Boekhari, 7:330 - Aisha: (the wife of the Prophet): “We set out with Allahs Apostle on one of his journeys till we reached Al-Bayḍā.”
  • Al-Boekhari, 23:375 - “Ibn Abbas said: 'Umar used to say so.' Then he added narrating, 'I accompanied Umar on a journey from Mecca till we reached Al-Bayḍā.'”
  • Al-Boekhari, 26:623 - Narrated Anas bin Malik: “Allah's Apostle offered four Rakat of Zuhr prayer at Medina and we were in his company, and two Rakat of the Asr prayer at Dhul-Hulaifa and then passed the night there till it was dawn; then he rode, and when he reached Al-Bayḍā', he praised and glorified Allah and said Takbir. Then he and the people along with him recited Talbiya with the intention of performing Hajj(!) and Umra(!). ”
  • Al-Boekhari, 34:329 - Narrated Aisha: “Allah's Apostle said, "An army will invade the Ka'ba and when the invaders reach Al-Bayḍā, all the ground will sink and swallow the whole army." ”
  • Al-Boekhari, 60:132 - Narrated Aisha: “A necklace of mine was lost at Al-Bayḍā and we were on our way to Medina.”
  • Sahih Muslim, 4:2023 - “.....for the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) had said:" The dead is punished because of the lamenting of his family for him"? Ibn Abbas then said that Umar used to say someting of that nature, and then narrated saying: I proceeded from Mecca along with 'Umar till we reached Al-Bayḍā and there was a party of riders under the shade of a tree..... “
  • Sahih Muslim, 7:2841- “I would do as Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) did. I call you as witness that I have undertaken to perform 'Umra. He then set out until, when he reached the rear side of Al-Bayḍā, he said: There is one command both for Hajj and Umra, so bear witness.”
The entrance to al-Bayḍā, like Petra, contains a small crack in the rock through which visitors must pass, contains a number of notable tombs and well preserved monuments, has majalis, a kind of of underground dining or meeting hall with benches, niches for god idols, stairs to high places and a stairway at the back of al-Bayḍā that leads to the small boxed canyon in the rear, one of the most hidden and secluded places around Petra.

So what can we learn from these mentions?
  • 1) Al-Bayḍā is often the latest stop when traveling to the holy city.
  • 2) Al-Bayḍā lies between the holy city and Medina.
  • 3) Al-Bayḍā is the first stop when traveling to Medina.
  • 4) Al-Bayḍā is next or close to the Ka'ba.
  • 5) Hajj and Umra are associated with Al-Bayḍā and thus the holy city
Al-Bayḍā & Petra
  • Al-Bayḍā is situated five kilometers north of Petra
  • The hadith has specific information that can be attested: the mountain path that connects Petra with al-Bayḍā and a reference to the rear side of Al-Bayḍā which is a stairway leading to a boxed canyon which was undoubtedly used for some kind of worship.
The mountain path to Al-Bayḍā starts at the temenos of the Qasr-al-Bint and then passes the Lion Truckinium and Ad Deir before arriving in Al-Bayḍā.

Location
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Siq+A ... 35.4497159" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


https://www.walkopedia.net/assets/walki ... Tympsy.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The rear side of Al-Bayḍā (modern Little Petra) ".... He then set out until, when he reached the rear side of Al-Bayḍā, he said: There is one command both for Hajj and Umra. so bear witness.” (Sahih Muslim, 7:2841)
Last edited by Takeiteasynow on Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Re: Is it Mekkah or Petra?

Post by Takeiteasynow »

THE PETRA- MECCA CASE: Reconstructing the (pre-)Islamic pilgrimage (haij)

Case study: Kadu, Kada and Al-Batha


What does the Islamic tradition say?
  • Narated By Hisham : 'Urwa said, "The Prophet entered Mecca in the year of the conquest of Mecca from the side of Kada' which is at the higher part of Mecca." 'Urwa often entered from Kada' which was nearer of the two to his dwelling place.
  • Narrated `Aisha: In the year of the conquest of Mecca, the Prophet entered Mecca from Kada' at the higher place of Mecca. (Hisham, a sub-narrator said, " `Urwa used to enter from both Kada' and Kuda and he often entered through Kada' which was nearer to his dwelling place.)"
  • Narrated Hisham's father: During the year of the Conquest (of Mecca), the Prophet entered Mecca through its upper part through Kada.
  • Narrated Ibn `Umar:Allah's Messenger entered Mecca from Kada' from the highest Thaniya which is at Al-Batha' and used to leave Mecca from the low Thaniya.
  • Nafi’ reported on the authority of ‘Abd Allah bin ‘Umar: “The Apostle of Allah made his Camel kneel down at Al Batha which lies in Dhu Al Hulaifa and prayed there. Abd Allah bin ‘Umar too used to do so.”
  • Narrated Ibn `Abbas: The Prophet went out towards Al-Batha' and ascended the mountain and shouted, "O Sabahah!"....
  • It was narrated from Ibn Umar that: the Messenger of Allah entered Makkah from the upper valley which is in Al-Batha and he left from the lower valley.
  • Narrated Ibn `Umar: Allah's Messenger entered Mecca from Kada' from the highest Thaniya which is at Al-Batha' and used to leave Mecca from the low Thaniya.
  • Narrated Ibn `Abbas: ...as they (i.e. the Jurhum people) were coming through the way of Kada'. …
  • Narrated `Aisha': In the year of the conquest of Mecca, the Prophet entered Mecca from Kada' and left Mecca from Kuda, from the higher part of Mecca.
So what can we learn from these mentions?
  • Kada is at the higher part of the city
  • Kada is near the highest thaniya, which is at al-Batha.
  • Kada is associated with 'a way'
  • Kuda is the valley's exit at the lower part
  • Al-Batha is associated with a mountain
  • The upper thaniya is at Al-Batha
Summarized a pilgrim or the prophet of Islam would arrive at al-Batha after traveling through the highest or upper thaniya.

Taken from Dan Gibson's Qur'anic Geography: A thaniya is a narrow mountain pass, mountainous way or passages through the mountain. The city of Petra has two passages or thaniyas, connected though a stream bed:
  • A thaniya that exits Petra from the far end of the colonnade street, opposite of Petra's largest temple complex Qasr al-Bint and descends down to Wadi Araba. This thaniya is situated in the low side of Petra, separated with its higher counterpart by Colonnade Street.
  • The main thaniya is the Siq, a tortuous narrow canyon that has an awe-inspiring spectacle of a towering rock-cut facade, its sun-struck red sandstone gleaming through the darkness of the canyon. The Siq is main entrance to the city and is situated in the high or upper side of Petra.
Earlier on the upper thaniya has been identified as Petra's Siq or Qur'anic Bakkah, a narrow gorge thought the mountains with walls rising up to a maximum of 500 feet on either side of the gorge.

Al-Batha
So what about al-Batha? Its Setitic root bth refers to verb bataha, meaning to cause someone to fall face downwards or inbataha meaning to lie prostrate or face downwards. So in this part of the pilgrims route one may expect a special marker, a spot where God is venerated. And that is preciously what the hadeeth mentions: Muhammad goes to al-Batha to camp, pray or bless his followers.

The Treasury
And Petra offers this special marker: Al-Khazneh (the Treasury) is one of the most elaborate temples in the ancient Arab Nabatean Kingdom city of Petra. As with most of the other buildings in this ancient town this structure was carved out of a sandstone rock face. Historians belief and have speculated that the Treasury was constructed as the mausoleum of Nabataean king Aretas IV. Note that there is no proof or evidence for this hypothesis but as we know now: some historians are addicted to the creation of worthless stacked context.

Al-Khazneh is strongly associated with the mountain of Al-Madras. Its high place offers a direct and spectacular look over the monument. Al-Madras is mentioned as the 'mountain of God' and 'mountain of Dushara'. This makes this spot the right choice to venerate God and pray.

https://fabianfoo.files.wordpress.com/2 ... zneh-2.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
View at the Treasury from the mountain of Al-Madras

Kada
From Al-Khazneh a road trough a small valley with Facadesstreet leads to the city center of Petra with the masjid haram (temenos) of the Qasr al-Bint. This small valley is then the way of Kada.

Summary
Al Bataha: Al-Khazneh - the Treasury
Kada: Valley with facadesstreet
Kadu: thaniya behind Qasr al-Bint
Last edited by Takeiteasynow on Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

Nosuperstition
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Re: Is it Mekkah or Petra?

Post by Nosuperstition »

Tonsuring head is not something new invented by Muhammad.It is a practice that traces its origins all the way back to ancient Egypt.Long or well-combed hair is considered to be a reflection of your beauty and giving up hair before visiting the deity is a sign of giving up your ego before the deity.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

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Takeiteasynow
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Re: Is it Mekkah or Petra?

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Additional note Kadu, Kada and Al-Batha

Historians belief and have speculated that the Treasury (Al-Khazneh ) was constructed as the mausoleum of Nabataean king Aretas IV. Note that there is no proof or evidence for this hypothesis.

The functionality of these religious monuments should be evaluated against the social fabric of Nabataean society. Why? This society had very special characteristics in the ancient world and was one of a kind:
  • The Nabataeans of the kingdom period rejected, in general, the concept of slavery. Workers were hired to construct the famous monuments of Petra.
  • The Nabataean government and political structure were, as far as we can conclude from inscriptions and contemporary accounts quite democratic. Strabo writes: “The king is so democratic that, in addition to serving himself, he sometimes even serves the rest himself in his turn. He often renders an account of his kingship in the popular assembly; and sometimes his mode of life is examined.” This should be seen in the context of Arabian foederati were leaders were elected.
  • Women and men had equal rights. Women could rule, have the same official or religious roles and had equal property rights.
As the Nabataean empire stretched from the Nile to western Iraq and from Damascus to Taif near modern Makkah one can only conclude that the introduction of Islam was the worst case scenario for women in North Arabia as the Nabataean identity was still alive and kicking in the early seventh century. Still Karen Armstrong manages to produce a social-historical context that claims the opposite – the prime example of how not to choose historical sources.

Anyway, Nabataean society had a strong egalitarian nature. Women rights and the 'democratic' attitude of kings indicate that this society strived for equality in social status and civil rights. In this perspective it is unlikely that any Nabataean King would built a mausoleum for himself at the start (or end – Ad Deir) of a sacred pilgrims route.

The Egalitarian Nature of this society, with its capital of the Arabian world, must have been very appealing of nations and people bordering Nabataea. For instance it may have influenced the New Covenant of early Christianity.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Re: Is it Mekkah or Petra?

Post by Takeiteasynow »

THE PETRA- MECCA CASE: Reconstructing the (pre-) Islamic pilgrimage (haij)

Case study: Makkah/Mecca

In Islamic tradition the Quranic phrase Makkah is interpreted as a locality although there are no other sources that record the rich trade city of Makkah.

Quran 48:24
“He is the One who withheld their hands of aggression you and withheld your hands of aggression against them in the valley of Makkah after He had granted your victory over them. God is Seer of everything you do.”
Etymological approach
The sememe of Makkah (adjective) is mkk. A etymological analysis is not that difficult as this root appears in many Semitic languages.

As many scholars argue that Persian empires and religions influenced the development of Abrahamic religions in an early stage we could look at Mandaic. Mandaic is a variety of Aramaic and its classical version is used in liturgical rites. Mandaic root mkk denotes “to spread or spread out” (1)

Fortunately the root mkk is common to Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic and Uguritic and means 'to bend, to be low or humiliated'. (2) The form mkk or related mwk is often used in Aramaic and Hebrew liturgical texts to express the position of a person in relation to god. The person may be humble or in a humble position, possibly when performing a religious ritual, to bow, to be low or lie prostrated in the presence of God or be humbled after God acted.

For instance in the Aramaic Bible this root is used in ''l yd dwd mkyk wsly' meaning 'by David, the humble and blameless one'. (3) In in the Hebrew bible the root mkk i s used to indicate 'ruin' or 'tumble' meaning 'bringing down of a person in humility' or a 'building in ruin' and its associated root mwk to indicate a person 'to be brought down in poverty'. (4)

Taken this into account ( and other linguistic studies on Qur’anic language) surat Quran 48:24 could be read as :
“He is the One who withheld their hands of aggression you and withheld your hands of aggression against them so be humbled after He had granted your victory over them. God is Seer of everything you do.”
In any case, Makkah is used an adjective, refers so a specific state of being (most likely related to some kind of divine intervention) and is certainly not a locality, town or city at the time of Muhammad.

Sources
(1) Comparative Lexical Studies in Neo-Mandaic, Hezy Multzafi, 2014, page 153
(2) Studies in Ancient Yahwistic Poetry, Frank Moore Cross, ‎David Noel Freedman, 1997, page 73
(3) The Aramaic Bible: Psalms, page 46, 2001, see Psalm 16
(4) The Ancient Hebrew Lexicon of the Bible, Jeff A. Benner, 2014, page 168
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Re: Is it Mekkah or Petra?

Post by manfred »

This is an interesting idea... the conventional understanding of that verse is that "Allah" causea Mohammed to be magnanimous in victory, after the conquest of Mecca.

The Qur'an has many words borrowed from other languages, most often Syriac, so this could indeed be an age old misunderstanding.

There is one thing that makes your alternative reading somewhat unusual... Allah is very rarely critical in any way of Mohammed. Your reading suggests that Mohammed was boastful and/or vengeful in victory. Would Mohammed allow "Allah's criticism" of his actions to be known? Mohammed was not known for his ability to accept criticism, to put it mildly. In other words, he was quite an insecure man.

Also when we read on we see this:
They are the ones who denied Revelation and hindered you from the Sacred Mosque and the sacrificial animals, detained from reaching their place of sacrifice. Had there not been believing men and believing women whom ye did not know that ye were trampling down and on whose account a crime would have accrued to you without (your) knowledge, (Allah would have allowed you to force your way, but He held back your hands) that He may admit to His Mercy whom He will. If they had been apart, We should certainly have punished the Unbelievers among them with a grievous Punishment.
So people towards whom Mohammed acted in restraint were those who denied his "revelations" and who kept him from the "sacred mosque", the Kaaba, presumably. Mohammed's feelings towards these people are hinted at in the text... barely concealed hatred, for the "crime" of not believing him.

It seems clear that this is talking about this tribesmen. As by the 9th century, these were assumed to be in Mecca, mentioning the name of the town would have been superfluous, and possibly confusing to Muslims before then. So my assumption is that "in the valley of Mecca" is simply a later addition to underline the storyline of Mohammed in Mecca, Mohammed would not have to explain this to his followers, as it it perfectly clear what he means by what follows. As to Mohammed admitting a character flaw that "Allah" need to correct or restrain, that sounds unlikely.
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Re: Is it Mekkah or Petra?

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Hmm.. that's a likely assumption but also one that requires a lot of additional research. Actually it's quite an intriguing suggestion: it would mean that the Abbasid caliphate falsified both hadith and Quran.

Now this is a serious option: the first Quranic editions were written in Kufic script, a variety of Nabataean script. As the Nabataean religious identity and communities still existed in the early seventh century and beyond the Abbasid caliphate could not afford a logical link between Quranic surahs and Nabataean script. Sooner or later Nabataeans would have claimed some kind of intellectual ownership of the Quran - a big complication if you tell everyone that the Quran was revealed to Muhammad in Mecca. At the same time the Abbasid caliphate had to destroy the link between hadith and the original pilgrimage (haij) to Petra.

At least this assumption is very useful to eliminate Mecca from any debate over Islamic pilgrimage to Petra - and that was the objective of this case study that I have to edit. At most .. well.... I have always wondered why so many Near East communities were wiped from the historical record after the Abbasids came to power. Did history overlook a first cultural genocide? (edited)
Last edited by Takeiteasynow on Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Re: Is it Mekkah or Petra?

Post by manfred »

Well, if Mohammed, the historical one (or several) were NOT based in Mecca, he would certainly not place the Kaaba in Mecca. His followers would think he had gone mad...

If he was based in Mecca, as traditional account tell us, then the phase "the valley (is really says "belly") of Mecca"is not natural in this context. It does not need to be mentioned as it is clear from the next verse that Mohammed's home is meant. Worse, the entire surah was "revealed" in the immediate aftermath of the conquest of Mecca. Allegedly this "revelation" came IN MECCA when Abu Bakr and other complained that the "pagans" were not all killed.
Narrated Habib bin Abi Thabit
I went to Abu Wail to ask him (about those who had rebelled against 'Ali). On that Abu Wail said, "We were at Siffin (a city on the bank of the Euphrates, the place where me battle took place between 'Ali and Muawiya) A man said, "Will you be on the side of those who are called to consult Allah's Book (to settle the dispute)?" 'Ali said, 'Yes (I agree that we should settle the matter in the light of the Qur'an)." ' Some people objected to 'Ali's agreement and wanted to fight. On that Sahl bin Hunaif said, 'Blame yourselves! I remember how, on the day of Al-Hudaibiya (i.e. the peace treaty between the Prophet and the Quraish pagans), if we had been allowed to choose fighting, we would have fought (the pagans). At that time 'Umar came (to the Prophet) and said, "Aren't we on the right (path) and they (pagans) in the wrong? Won't our killed persons go to Paradise, and theirs in the Fire?" The Prophet replied, "Yes." Umar further said, "Then why should we let our religion be degraded and return before Allah has settled the matter between us?" The Prophet said, "O the son of Al-Khattab! No doubt, I am Allah's Apostle and Allah will never neglect me." So Umar left the place angrily and he was so impatient that he went to Abu Bakr and said, "O Abu Bakr! Aren't we on the right (path) and they (pagans) on the wrong?" Abu Bakr said, "O the son of Al-Khattab! He is Allah's Apostle, and Allah will never neglect him." Then Sura Al-Fath (The Victory) was revealed."
Sahih Bukhari 6:60:367
So there is Mohammed and his merry men, standing in Mecca, in sight of the Kaaba, and Allah needs to tell them where they are?
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Re: Is it Mekkah or Petra?

Post by Takeiteasynow »

It seems like overhead indeed – if Allah needs to tell them where they are it looks like the audience – readers – is being informed.

This smart deduction could act as a starting point for understanding how the Abbasid caliphate extended the core of the hadith to fit its own narrative and judicial system while simultaneously syncing the Qur’an with the hadith based upon a geographical template.

Makkah may just be one of the ancient West-Semitic words the Abbasid judicians did not understand as sememes mkk or mwk are attested in Persian Aramaic, Hebrew, Syriac but apparently not In early Mesopotamian Arabic. In this context the phrase Makkah may have been interpreted as a locality.

As the form mkk is mostly used to express the position of a person in relation to god surat Quran 48:24 could perhaps be read as:
“He is the One who withheld their hands of aggression you and withheld your hands of aggression against them in the valley of the humbled/ where one is humbled after He had granted your victory over them. God is Seer of everything you do.”
Another possibility is that something went wrong during the codification process. Dan Gibson demonstrated in his documentary that the difference between script forms mkk and bkk is just a little curl.

Then surat 48:24 could be read as:
“He is the One who withheld their hands of aggression you and withheld your hands of aggression against them in the valley (belley) of Bakkah after He had granted your victory over them. God is Seer of everything you do.”
If Petra is Makkah then this could be a plausible explanation – after all the Qur’an was, according to the tradition, codified using many fragments.
Last edited by Takeiteasynow on Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Re: Is it Mekkah or Petra?

Post by Takeiteasynow »

---duplicate ---
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Re: Is it Mekkah or Petra?

Post by Fernando »

Takeiteasynow wrote:Makkah may just be one of the ancient West-Semitic words the Abbasid judicians did not understand as sememes mkk or mwk are attested in Persian Aramaic, Hebrew, Syriac but apparently not In early Mesopotamian Arabic. In this context the phrase Makkah may have been interpreted as a locality.
A bit off topic, but as a non-linguist I'm puzzled by all this business of vowel-less roots. With the ambiguity that it entails, how can anyone take such writings more seriously than a guessing game? Hardly something to live and die for.
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Re: Is it Mekkah or Petra?

Post by manfred »

Fernando, in Hebrew and Arabic vowel every VERB has a "root" that consists of three consonants (very occasionally just 2) Forms of the verb are made by changing the vowels between them, and by adding bits at the front and the back. Sometimes nouns get made from such verbs too, as we do in English ("to work" and "at work")

The "root fallacy" is the idea that all derivations from one root must mean THE SAME as the original. This makes no sense if you think about it, as the variations exist to CHANGE the meaning. So there should be a connection to the original "root", but that is not always a strong one. So IF "Mecca" is related to this root, the it simply suggest a name like "the sprawling place".
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Re: Is it Mekkah or Petra?

Post by Takeiteasynow »

With the ambiguity that it entails, how can anyone take such writings more seriously than a guessing game?
Well the Abbasids would have looked at a Quranic fragment script form without vowels or diacritical marks. This script form without vowels can be attested in Hebrew and Syriac texts (see sources above) but not in Arabic Mesopotamian texts. So the script form may have been interpreted as a locality. But Manfred offers a better explanation.
So IF "Mecca" is related to this root, the it simply suggest a name like "the sprawling place".
Simply perfect. Especially in the context of an early pilgrimage to Petra. As there are several studies linking the Quran to a Syriac origin this is very plausible. A possibility that needs to be researched.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Re: Is it Mekkah or Petra?

Post by Takeiteasynow »

THE PETRA- MECCA CASE: Reconstructing the (pre-) Islamic pilgrimage (haij)

Case study: The Quraysh

Linking Quraysh with the Islamic Hajj
According to Islamic tradition in 629 CE Muslim armies marched north from Medina to fight Khaybar, a city that often opposed the Muslims. After their army defeated Khaybar, commander Ḥajjāj decided to go on to the Holy City because he had a wife, son and property there. Arabic historian Al Ṭabarī describes his arrival in the Holy City:
“I departed and arrived in the Holy City. On the mountain trail at al-Bayḍā I met some men from Quraysh who were eager to hear news and were asking about what happened to the Messenger of God."
Linking Quraysh with Nabataean Petra
This text indicates that the Quraysh, as al-Bayḍā is situated approximately five kilometers north of Petra and connected with its city center through a mountain trail, lived in or the direct vicinity of Petra.

The trade of the Quraysh
According to the Islamic tradition, Quraysh, the Prophet’s tribe, made their living in pre-Islamic times as traders who frequented a number of places, above all southern Syria, where they sold a variety of goods, above all leather goods and other pastoralist products such as woollen clothing and clarified butter, perhaps live animals as well.

The trade of the Quraysh
According to the Islamic tradition, Quraysh, the Prophet’s tribe, made their living in pre-Islamic times as traders who frequented a number of places, above all southern Syria, where they sold a variety of goods, above all leather goods and other pastoralist products such as woollen clothing and clarified butter, perhaps live animals as well.

That they made (or had once made) a living selling goods of this kind in Syria is the one of the few claims regarding the rise of Islam on which there is complete agreement in the tradition. That they made (or had once made) a living selling goods of this kind in Syria is the one of the few claims regarding the rise of Islam on which there is complete agreement in the tradition. (1) The first is that the tradition also identifies Quraysh as the pagans (mushriku¯n) who are addressed in the Quran. This is a problem because the Quran itself describes these pagans as agriculturalists rather than traders (2) but I shall leave that problem aside here. What follows is based on the assumption that the rise of Islam had something to do with an Arabian community dominated by traders who sold leather goods and other pastoralist products in southern Syria.

On the other hand, the tradition environment of the Quraysh is so far from southern Syria that it is almost impossible to imagine how these tribesmen from Makkah earned a living by transporting, for example, butter and leather over distances of more than 1500 kilometers through a red-hot desert. Such a trade trip would, according to traditional sources, take at least two months. (3) t is therefore much more likely, if Makkah was their home, that the Quraysh traded in lucrative goods such as herbs and balm or perfume.

The Buyers
It is crucial to understand who took the goods from the Quraysh. Their main client would be the Byzantine legions that were encamped in the south of Syria, always buying leather and skins goods. The Byzantine army needed large amounts of leather for tents, swords, screens, sandals, boots, belts, wine and water bags and so much more. (4) Leather skins were frequently used in military fortifications. (5) It is estimated that a single classical Byzantine legion needed at least 65,700 goats or a smaller number of calves for the tents within the encampment.(6) During the sixth century a Byzantine legion would consist of 5000 soldiers on average despite various epidemics that broke out after 541. (7)

So who would deliver these leather or pastoralist goods?
Many agricultural areas in upper Syria and Mesopotamia were devastated by Sassanid troops as the war between Persia and the Byzantine empire seemed to last forever. During the sixth century more forts in Jordan were cleared by the Byzantines and limitanei (border guards) were demobilized. Authority over these areas was transferred to vassal states such as the Ghassanids foederati.(8) Around 580 the Byzantines withdraw from Petra. Now if the Quraysh were living in Petra then southern Syria would be the target outlet for their leather and pastoralist products.

Many Byzantine soldiers were stationed in Syria with estimates ranging from 18,000 to 54,000 soldiers.(9) After relatively few confrontations between the Byzantines and Persian Sassanids, a long series of wars began in 502 with the capture of the Byzantine city of Theodosiopolis. (10) This created a new and increased demand for leather and related products. It is therefore understandable that the Quraysh traded large quantities of leather, skins, wool and other animal products with southern Syria.

It is plausible that Arab tribes specialized in supplying semi-military goods to Roman and Byzantine legions. Roman and Byzantine troops infiltrated deeply into the Hijaz. A bilingual military inscription at Rawwafa (southwest of Tabuk) recalls the establishment of a temple dedicated to the Roman emperors Marcus Aurelius and Lucius Verus.(11) Between Madina Saleh (in modern Saudi-Arabia) and al-Ula inscriptions have been found that show Roman cavalry and mounted auxiliaries (dromedarii) operated just north of Yathrib (the current Medina). (12)

Economical changes
The Roman expansion led to structural changes in the local economy in southern Syria and the northern Hijaz. Due to the need for leather and pastoralist products, many Arab tribes exchanged their nomadic life for either 'city life' or intensive livestock farming. Archaeological research has shown that at this time the urban population in Roman Syria (Arabia Petraea) rose rapidly and that even steppes and highlands were populated.(13)

In 502 Sasanian ruler Kavadh launched a surprise attack that led to a fight for the hegemony in Syria and Mesopotamia that had a big impact on the inhabitants of Mesopotamia in particular. Not only did were portions of the local population being taken away in captivity, but they were often squeezed out and rejected by passing armies.(14) As a consequence the population decreased, agricultural production declined and many skilled artisans and farmers migrated to safer areas.

This situation must have been a golden opportunity for the inhabitants of the southern part of Arabia Petraea. This relatively sparsely populated area, actually out of reach of the imperial tax system and direct Byzantine control, could immediately benefit from the loss of production in Mesopotamia and upper Syria. The number of destroyed tents, weapons and other equipment must have been enormous. In view of the loss of production in Mesopotamia, this was a golden opportunity for the inhabitants of Petra and surrounding cities.

Quraysh and the Byzantine market
Islamic tradition narrates that the great-grandfather of Mohammed, Hashim, is the first tribesmen Quraysh to receive a Byzantine concession for the export of leather products and clothes to Syria. Muhammad trades in leather skins and other tribesmen, such as Abd al-Rahman, bring butter, skins and cheese to Medina, where these goods are exchanged for grain and flour from Syria.

According to Islamic tradition Hashim caught the attention of the Byzantine ruler in Syria by serving him an exotic dish (tharid - lamb stew).(15) In exchange, Quraysh' tribesmen were given the right to sell goods and clothes in Syria and the tribes between Syria and “Mecca” were given a safe conduct (Ilaf) so that they could trade without problems or extra charges. Hashim acted as an intermediary here and bought animal products from tribes and sold them to his Byzantine customers in Syria.(16) (17)

Without a free pass provided by the Byzantine governor in Syria (ama¯n), the tribesmen of the Qurayshi would have been treated as illegal aliens since the Byzantines imposed strict requirements on foreign traders and strictly supervised the levying of customs taxes.(18) If the tribesmen of the Qurayshi traded butter, skins and cheese with Syria the logical conclusion is that that the Qurayshi lived in the vicinity of southern Syria. Pastoralist products can't be transported over a distance of 1500 kilometers through a red-hot desert. Unless the Qurayshi exploited a chain of pancake houses in the Hijaz of course.

Whether this tale is true or not does not matter. The Byzantines were probably satisfied with a (new) continuous supply of (military) goods from Jordan.

Trading ports
According to Islamic tradition tribesmen of the Quraysh traded in Palestine(19), Jordan(20) and Egypt.(21) Sometimes tribesmen visit major cities such as Jerusalem, Alexandria or Damascus. But there are two cities where merchants of the Quraysh appear regularly: Bostra in Southern Syria and Gaza on the Mediterranean coast. Muhammad's great-grandfather dies in Gaza and his father died in Medina after a successful trade mission to Gaza. Gaza was at this time an important port city and the place from which products from Quraysh could be exported to Egypt and Caesarea and Alexandria.

Even more remarkable is that the Islamic tradition doesn't mention any important market towns on alternative routes to Gaza like Nessana or Elusa.

Trade hub
Now this is when it gets very interesting - Patricia Crone writes:
"Now let us follow Quraysh to Gaza. Having gone to Ayla, as the exegete says, they could be expected to have proceeded northwards along the Via Nova Traiana to Petra (modern Wadi Musa, 10 km west of Adhruh), and to have taken the road north-west from there to Gaza, passing through settlements with a military presence such as Oboda ( Avdat) and Elusa (al-H˙alas˙a) on the way. But the sources do not seem to remember a single place between Ayla and Gaza in connection with Qurashı¯ trade; most strikingly, they never seem to mention Petra."
Traditional sources can not tell how merchants of the Quraysh traveled to Gaza or Bosra (22) but history and the archeological record does. Petra had been the Arabian and Nabataean trade hub for many centuries. During the Nabatean era and classical antiquity (circa 300 BCE – 350 CE) Petra was an important trade entrepôt due to its location at the intersection of two vital trade routes – the Hejaz route paralleling the Red Sea and the King's Highway. In Roman times this road was renamed to Via Traiana Nova and used to connect new colonial cities east of the river Jordan with the empire.

Trading port: Gaza
The Nabataean settlement at Gaza was south of the port at a place called Jenysos and acted as a gateway for Nabatean goods from Petra on their way to Greece and Rome until most of their trade was switched to Alexandria. The name of the sea harbor varied according to the various eras and rulers. It was called Athedyoun (meaning the white flower Costandia during the age of Constantine), Meyouma and Teda in the Roman and Byzantine era. Gaza was with its important strategic location between Asia and Africa a vital port for many trading nations.(23)

Bostra is economically, religiously and culturally tied to Petra. Petra, on the King's Highway, is the center point between Gaza and Bostra.

Sow how does that relate to the Quraysh? It seems that Islamic tradition mixes two different story-lines: the glorious past of Nabataean trade and its trade hub Petra and the agricultural patterns of the early seventh century when the hinterland of Petra merely produced pastoralist and leather products, an idea or pattern that may have been copied from the Petra Papyri.(24)

What's in a name?
During the first centuries of the Islamic era tribesmen of the Quraysh were identified with their clan name and only after the thirteenth century with their tribal name.(25) The ninth century historian Hisham Ibn al-Kalbi assumes that the Quraysh had no namesake and that its tribesname derived from Arabic taqarroesh, meaning 'coming together', 'covenant' or 'association'.(26) (27) Another Islamic tradition states that the tribe gets its name when Qoesayy ibn Kilab dispels the Yemeni Khuza'a tribe from the Kaba.

Christoph Luxenberg suggests that Quraysh (as it appears in the Arabic Qur'an in Sura 106:1) morphologically corresponds to the masculine plural of the Syro-Aramaic word qarīsh as "congregation" in the sense of foederati.(28) Arabic root qarasha would have derived from the Aramaic word qrash meaning 'gathering' or 'coming together' in both languages. The Syro-Aramean qarīshē would then have been adopted in Arabic as Qarīsh.

It is therefore important to determine whether Quraysh has an Arabic or Aramaic origin. The issue is that both qarīshē and qarīsh are rarely attested in early Arabian or late Aramaic literature. The first reference to Syriac qarīshē can be found in the Chronicle of Zuqnin from 775, which describes how the proclamation of the Savior is transferred to that of his disciples or priestly modes. The first reference to Arabic qarasha dates back to the 11th century, found in the work Mukham (a 28-part dictionary of Classical Arabic) by the Andalusian scientist and etymologist Ibn Sida.(29)

As the Quran contains many Syriac loanwords, locality names of the (pre-) Islamic Hajj resolve against (imperial) Syriac, the Syriac phrase qarīshē at least 300 years older is than Arabic qarasha, the tribal name of the Quraysh isn't found in the archeological record and was only used after a theological innovation in the 13th century the conclusion is that the word Quraysh only makes sense as a foederati or federation of tribes.

The next step is to attest this conclusion against the development of the young Arabic language. Examination of Arab papyri from Hellenistic Syro-Palestine indicates that the Arab dialects from Bostra, Petra and Nessana were developing into Classical Arabic, a language which refers primarily to the language of the Qur'an, and secondarily to the various texts and works that are directly inspired by both its form and content. Writers from these cities were working together in an effort to standardize certain features of the Arabic script, a trend that started in the 6th century.

The material in Papyri Petra 10 exhibits linguistic features that are assigned by Arab and modern grammarians to the proto-Arabic dialect knows as 'Hijaz'. These involve the dropping of hamza, the e phoneme, the occurrence of the vowel u instead of a in some nouns and the insertion of vowels in others.

These linguistic developments strongly supports the proposition of Luxenburg - the dropping of the hamza (ē phoneme) translates to the Arabization of the Syro-Aramaic word qarīshē. Arabic qarīsh then gets a special meaning in the sense of covenant or foederati.

Conclusion

Islamic tradition and historian Al Ṭabarī mentions tribesmen from Quraysh on the mountain trail to al-Bayḍā. al-Bayḍā is just north of the city Petra in Jordan.

Quranic Quraysh resolves morphologically against Syriac as foederati or convenant. This may refer to the convenant of the 'People of the Book' of a federaton of tribes. The only recorded federation during the time of Muhammad in the region of Petra is the Ghassanid federation.

The most important trading places for the Quraysh are Gaza and Bostra, traditional ports or outlets for Nabataean Petra. Islamic tradition upholds the glorious past of Nabataean trade and its Arabian capital Petra and describes agricultural patterns of Petra's hinterland in the early seventh century when it produced pastoralist and possibly leather products. The tradition can't tell how merchants of the Quraysh travelled to these trading places - om this perspective the Muslim silence on Petra is particularly strange.

The city of Petra builds monumental structures mainly financed by its land-owning elite while its agricultural hinterland expanded rapidly in the direction of Ma'an and many abandoned towns were resettled.

Considering all other evidence the conclusion is that the term Quraysh refers to Tribes under control or part of Ghassanid federation - not referring to a specific ethnically or cultural background - living in Jordan along the Kings's highway and therefore must have been familiar or at least have knowledge of the original Hajj to Petra.

======================================================================

Notes
  • (1) P. Crone, Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam (Oxford and Princeton, 1987), chs 4, 5, with the sources claiming that they stopped trading some time before the rise of Islam at 110 f.
  • (2) P. Crone, How did the quranic pagans make a living?, Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies 68/3, 2005, 387–99.
  • (3) Ibn Hisha¯m, al-Sı¯ra al-nabawiyya, ed. M. al-Saqqa¯, I. al-Abya¯rı¯ and A.-H˙ . Shiblı¯, second printing (Cairo, 1955), i, 398
  • (4)C. van Driel-Murray, The production and supply of military leatherwork in the first and second centuries A.D.: a review of the archaeological evidence, in M. C. Bishop (ed.), The Production and Distribution of Roman Military Equipment (BAR International Series 275, Oxford, 1985),
  • (5) Isaac, Limits of Empire, 291 (in connection with a visit of Diocletian to Egypt in 298, where they procure them as part of the annona).
  • (6) Kissel, Untersuchungen, 223 f., where the number of calves is put at 27,000; the number is doubled in P. S. Wells, The Barbarians Speak: How the Conquered Peoples Shaped Roman Europe (Princeton and Oxford, 1999), 145, who speaks of 54,000 calves, which sounds more plausible, but he does not give his source.
  • (7) Whitby, Recruitment, 92–103.
  • (8) S. T. Parker, Retrospective on the Arabian frontier after a decade of research, in P. Freeman and D. Kennedy (eds), The Defence of the Roman and Byzantine East, part i (BAR international series 297(i), Oxford, 1986), 633, 648 ff.
  • (9) Patricia Crone, “Quraysh and the Roman army: Making sense of the Meccan leather trade”, Princeton, 2007, page 71
  • (10) Greatrex-Lieu (2002), II, 62
  • (11) For the interpretation of the Thamu¯d in this inscription as an ethnic unit of the Roman army, see M. C. A. MacDonald, Quelques re´flexions sur les sarace`nes, l’inscription de Rawwa¯fa et l’arme´e romaine, in H. Lozachmeur (eds), Pre´sence arabe dans le croissant fertile avant l’He´gire (Paris, 1995), 98 ff
  • (12) Bowersock, Roman Arabia, 95 f., 107, 157; cf. Graf, Qura Arabiyya, who rejects the idea that there was a toll station there and suggests that the troops were exploratores, ‘‘probes and protusions from the imperial borders [which] provided surveillance of the major routes leading into the provinces and monitored any dramatic settlement changes or population shifts along the frontiers’’
  • (13) K. Butcher, Roman Syria (London and Los Angeles, 2003), 140.
  • (14) Cf. Isaac, Limits of Empire, 290 f
  • (15) Patricia Crone, “Quraysh and the Roman army: Making sense of the Meccan leather trade”, Princeton, 2007, page 76
  • (16) Al-Ja¯h ˙ iz ˙ and al-Tha a¯libı¯ in Crone, Meccan Trade, 103. We also hear of a Byzantine trader who sold a cloak for a hundred camels in Mecca itself (Agha¯nı¯, xviii, 123).
  • (17) Crone, Meccan Trade, 98, n. 43
  • (18) An imperial edict of 408–409 identifies Nisibis, Artaxata and Callinicum as the only places where traders coming from Mesopotamia could bring their goods into the empire, and the peace treaty of 561 instructs the Arabs to bring their goods to Daras and Nisibis instead of trying to smuggle them in, threatening them with dire punishments. At the designated points of entry, they could be searched for proof that they were bona fide traders rather than spies and also made to pay (I. Kawar (alias Shahid), The Arabs in the peace treaty of A.D. 561, Arabica 3, 1956, 192 f, 196; cf. above, n. 3).
  • (19) 'Ikrima in al-Suyu¯t ˙ ¯ı, Kita¯b al-durr al-manthu¯r fı¯ ’l-tafsı¯r bi’l-ma’thu¯r (Beirut, 1983), viii, 638, ad 106:2.
  • (20) Crone, Meccan Trade, 119, n. 54 (Muqa¯til, supported by Abu¯ ’l-Baqa¯’).
  • (21) E. W. Brooks (tr.), The chronological canon of James of Edessa, Zeitschrift der Deutschen Morgenla¨ndischen Gesellschaft 53, 1899, 323.
  • (22) Patricia Crone, “Quraysh and the Roman army: Making sense of the Meccan leather trade”, Princeton, 2007, page 84
  • (23) Gibson, Dan, The Nabataeans, Builders of Petra, CanBooks, Saskatchewan, Canada 2002
  • (24) Petra Papyri offers many details on agricultural products and transactions until 592 CE and cites ancient honorary titles of Petra.
  • (25) Watt 1986, p. 435
  • (26) Watt 1986, p. 434
  • (27) Peters 1994, p. 14.
  • (28) Christoph Luxenberg, 'The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran', page 236
  • (29) Ian D. Morris, Quraush and confederacy, http://www.iandavidmorris.com/quraysh-and-confederacy/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by Takeiteasynow on Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Fernando
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Re: Is it Mekkah or Petra?

Post by Fernando »

manfred wrote:Fernando, in Hebrew and Arabic vowel every VERB has a "root" that consists of three consonants (very occasionally just 2) Forms of the verb are made by changing the vowels between them, and by adding bits at the front and the back. Sometimes nouns get made from such verbs too, as we do in English ("to work" and "at work")

The "root fallacy" is the idea that all derivations from one root must mean THE SAME as the original. This makes no sense if you think about it, as the variations exist to CHANGE the meaning. So there should be a connection to the original "root", but that is not always a strong one. So IF "Mecca" is related to this root, the it simply suggest a name like "the sprawling place".
Sorry Manfred, but when you say "So IF "Mecca" is related to this root, the it simply suggest a name like "the sprawling place", aren't you half way towards saying that derivations mean the same thing as the root? Harmless in an example, but not good when trying to wriggle out of criticism of the Koran - which tactic used by Muslims here was behind my question.
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

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manfred
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Re: Is it Mekkah or Petra?

Post by manfred »

Hi Fernando, it is difficult to describe this in general without being too inaccurate.

As takeiteasynow pointed out....
Fortunately the root mkk is common to Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic and Uguritic and means 'to bend, to be low or humiliated'
The first thing to note is that the "root" is used like a NOUN in "Mecca".

So we are looking for a noun that relates in some way towards "to bend, to be low or humiliated". In other uses, the root is sometimes used to describe a skin rash, for example. Hence my suggestion "a sprawling place".

The derivation should have a CONNECTION to the "root" but it should also VARY the meaning.

Think of it this way:

there is a Latin word "ducare" which made its way in various forms into English. It means "to lead".

We have "educate", which means to "lead out".
also "deduce" which means "to lead from"
"subduction" "something leading below"
"induction" "something leading into"
"reduction" "something leading back"
"duke" "the leader"

and many more.

But when you look at the literal translation of the terms using the Latin and compare it to our use in English, you find we use the words to mean something different, but loosely related.

You can still work out the way our meaning came about from the original, but it certainly is not the same any more.

This is much the same with the relation between "roots" and derivations in Semitic languages.
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Fernando
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Re: Is it Mekkah or Petra?

Post by Fernando »

Thanks Manfred. Your explanation covers, nicely, where words come from. However, in English surely nobody would try to work backwards and tie a modern word so closely to its ancient root as Muslims - and perhaps speakers of other Semitic languages would - seem to on this forum. Maybe it's something to do with writing backwards! :sml:
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

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Hombre
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Re: Is it Mekkah or Petra?

Post by Hombre »

Fernando wrote:
Takeiteasynow wrote:Makkah may just be one of the ancient West-Semitic words the Abbasid judicians did not understand as sememes mkk or mwk are attested in Persian Aramaic, Hebrew, Syriac but apparently not In early Mesopotamian Arabic. In this context the phrase Makkah may have been interpreted as a locality.
A bit off topic, but as a non-linguist I'm puzzled by all this business of vowel-less roots. With the ambiguity that it entails, how can anyone take such writings more seriously than a guessing game? Hardly something to live and die for.
Here is an example where placement of the vowel changes the pronunciation of the same latter:

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_ ... #TheVowels" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As manfred had pointed out. In Hebrew each verb is made of 3 letters, Like walk - halokh (הלך) or DRINK - shatoh (שתה) or eat - akhol (אכל). Pronounced in past tense (I ate) the word ends with "ti " Shatiti or ha-lakhti.

Hope it didn't confuse you. But once you get the hang of it - it is easy to learn Hebrew.

manfred, btw since Farsi is made of Arabic letters, with 6 more letters (like F) added, vowels are also included in that language as well.
Last edited by Hombre on Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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