Muslims, when is a young girl ready for full sex?

[Nosuperstition]

To begin: Everyone lived much shorter lives back then. It was common to be married around 13, have had one's first child at 14, and be dead around 40- barring wars, plagues or just bad neighbors.

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=1803&p=27220&hilit=shorter+lives#p27220

To the best of what I know,significant advances were made in medicine only after WW II in the form of anti-biotics.Before that lifespans were always short.So from when exactly were these things began to be considered haraam as we see in many societies.

[skynightblaze]

To begin: Everyone lived much shorter lives back then. It was common to be married around 13, have had one's first child at 14, and be dead around 40- barring wars, plagues or just bad neighbors.

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=1803&p=27220&hilit=shorter+lives#p27220

To the best of what I know,significant advances were made in medicine only after WW II in the form of anti-biotics.Before that lifespans were always short.So from when exactly were these things began to be considered haraam as we see in many societies.

I think the quote from other thread has a different context. Its talking about young men getting married at 13 and having first kid at 14 and then eventually dying at the age of 40 due to wars and other reasons. Here in this thread, we are talking about a old man aged 53 years marrying a young Aisha at the age of 9. I don't think a girl child marrying at 9 with a 53 year old man was a norm in any society. If the argument- life span being less in the past were true then Muhammad marrying Aisha becomes even more wrong considering the fact that muhammad could die anytime after 53 and Aisha would left without a partner for her entire life.

[Fernando]

Anyway, arguing about lifespans in the Middle Ages is no answer to whether such goings-on are proper in the 21st century. Even if it was OK then, why should it still be OK now?

[sum]

Hello Garudaman

The verses that you presented have nothing to do with the acceptable age or physical state for girls to start to engage in full sex.

Please tell me if in the light of current medical science whether muslims should reject Muhammad`s example of having sex with a 9yr old girl. Do you accept that there are greatly increased risks to health and life if girls have full sex at the age 9yrs and which could result in pregnancy?

sum

[Nosuperstition]

If the argument- life span being less in the past were true then Muhammad marrying Aisha becomes even more wrong considering the fact that muhammad could die anytime after 53 and Aisha would left without a partner for her entire life.

That is true only if Aisha gets so strongly bonded emotionally with Mohammed that she decides not get married for the rest of her life after Muhammad's expiry.However unlike Catholicism and Hinduism,Islam allows remarriage of widows.

[Nosuperstition]

Also both the wife and husband will be strong emotionally with one another if the husband stops consuming liquor,doesn't beat her up often and does not go after other women and looks after their children well enough.

[Nosuperstition]

Anyway, arguing about lifespans in the Middle Ages is no answer to whether such goings-on are proper in the 21st century. Even if it was OK then, why should it still be OK now?

I have read somewhere that it is only in sub-saharan Africa and in Yemen that child marriages are still in vogue in muslim countries.Before its oil wealth dried up ,I doubt even the Yemenese allowed any child marriages on a large scale.It is not O.K right now but one cannot say what the appropriate stance would be once oil that is essential in modern English medicines dries up in the whole world and no alternative medicines as effective as English medicines take their place for prolonging the life spans of human beings.

[skynightblaze]

If the argument- life span being less in the past were true then Muhammad marrying Aisha becomes even more wrong considering the fact that muhammad could die anytime after 53 and Aisha would left without a partner for her entire life.

That is true only if Aisha gets so strongly bonded emotionally with Mohammed that she decides not get married for the rest of her life after Muhammad's expiry.However unlike Catholicism and Hinduism,Islam allows remarriage of widows.

I don't think my argument is conditionally true as you are suggesting. It's true in any case and I will prove that to you. Let's consider a case where she was emotionally bonded with him. In that case even you agree Muhammad marrying her at old age was unfair because she would remained invested in him for her entire life. Let's consider the other case where we assume Aisha was not emotionally attached to muhammad. Now you argue that Aisha could have remarried since islam allows remarriage of widows and Aisha was also not strongly bonded with muhammad. Your argument would be true if we did not have the following verse:

(Quran 33:53)
"O ye who believe! …Nor is it right for you that ye should annoy Allah's Messenger, or that ye should marry his widows after him at any time. Truly such a thing is in Allah's sight an enormity."

Now even if Aisha wanted to marry anyone, she would not be able to do it because Muhammad had already made sure that his wives married no one after him. To disobey muhammad would mean losing your head at the hands of his followers. Neither would the wives dare to do such a thing nor his male followers. Btw this exception applied to muhammad's widows but not to other widows otherwise Muhammad during his lifetime would not be able to satisfy his lust for others wives. Its so easy to see that islam is a fake religion invented by a con man BUT only if one has an open and a fair mind.

In short, Muhammad's marriage with Aisha at 9 was wrong in any case.

[skynightblaze]

@NoSuperstition

I missed asking a very fundamental question above. If one claims that Aisha was not emotionally attached to muhammad then muhammad should not have married her.Isn't this good enough reason to prove that Muhammad was wrong? I don't need the above post at all.

[sum]

Why did Muhammad not want to have his widows remarry? There could be several reasons but one which should be considered is that his inability to father children after Kajidha and Mary the Copt had had children could well have been due to his impotence and/or sterility.

If this was the case his reputation a "stud" would be demolished and his memory subjected to mockery should his widows remarry.

By demanding that his widows should not remarry he showed that, as always, he was thinking solely of himself and not of his widows. Did Muhammad ever put his own situation second to someone else`s position? Not so far as I can recall.

It is recorded that Muhammad had lice which is not surprising considering the number of female bodies that he enjoyed and so it is equally possible that he could have contracted some sexually transmitted disease affecting his "abilities".

This is off topic but we will have to wait while Garudaman tells us whether modern medicine should take precedence over Muhammad`s example of having sexual intercourse with a 9yr old girl.

sum

[skynightblaze]

@sum
I think the primary reason why he did not want his widows to remarry is- insecurity about his wives. The same verse 33:53 says that his wives should talk to other men from behind the veil. This shows that muhammad was very insecure of his wives. I think the feeling that his wives might be attracted to younger men instead of him (as he was old) might have been haunting him. Now muslims defend this by saying -it was out of respect that his wives were not supposed to marry other men after his death. One has to be ignorant and stupid to believe in such excuses instead of seeing the very obvious reason. The first problem with this argument is - Respect is to be earned and not demanded. You cannot force someone to respect you. Secondly just for muhammad's so called respect, why should his wives suffer for their entire lives (in case they wished to remarry)? How can someone who claims to be a guide to entire world put his own respect first or insecurity to be precise before the freedom of others? A true leader would give freedom to his own widows to remarry after his death to lead by an example. Such an action would rather show him as someone who stood for widows rights and depict him positively. This would earn him more respect and people would probably on their own decline to marry his wives.

[Fernando]

Remarried wives may well be prone to pillow talk. Only Mohammed could know what his wives might tell about him but it might not have been to the advantage of his image.

[sum]

I go along with skynightblaze`s first sentence and Fernando`s comment as they both point to Muhammad`s insecurity. In fact what I was alluding to fits in nicely with these views.

Do you think that Garudaman will come back and give us a sensible view of his own as to whether modern medical science should override Muhammad`s example of sex with 9yr old girls? I do not think that he can because that would mean criticising Muhammad - not good, He is brainwashed and trapped.

sum

[sum]

I do not think that Garudaman wants or dares to give his own views on whether modern medicine should take precedence over Muhammad`s example of having sexual intercourse with a 9yr old girl. He would rather do a runner just as all muslims do on this matter.

sum

[sum]

By the standard that Muhammad set with 9yr old Aisha when he was 53yrs old he allowed men to have full sex with girls who could regard her "husband" as being the age equivalent of a great or greatgreat grandfather.

This is unquestionably loathsome and disgusting. Muhammad never let anything stand in the way of his lust.

I hope that fair minded muslims give this matter serious thought and start to question the morality of Muhammad.

sum

[sum]

I think that we can safely conclude that Garudaman has no answer to whether modern medical science should take precedence over Muhammad and his example of having full sexual intercourse with 9yr old Aisha.

I sincerely hope that he is beginning to see the light and note that Islam is not as good for mankind as he thought it was.

sum