Re: The teachings of Jesus are contrary to Allah's,why?

Postby manfred » Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:50 am

Whatever you say Allah knows more than you. None of People the Book denied at the time that they came to meet and debate with Muhammad.


Well, even in his own book "Allah" did not say that anyone actually changed any biblical texts, and according to you, he knows best.

And sure, you are right, some Jews and Christians did meet Mohammed and listened to him, and even had discussions with him perhaps.

On the whole, this was resoundingly unsuccessful for Mohammed, though, as he was not only disbelieved, he was also laughed at.

This made Mohammed bitter and angry, and this is where the hatred towards Jews and Christians in the Qur'an comes from. If you look at the various sections about Jews and Christians in chronological order (and there are a lot of them) you can see that it starts with fairly conciliatory verses, when Mohammed tried to get them to accept Islam and still thought it may work, then his views harden against first the Jews and finally the Christians too, ending in 9:29 and the odious"slay and be slain" verse.

His failure to win over Jews and Christians in Mecca also largely explains the much more violent approach to spreading Islam of the older Mohammed.
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Re: The teachings of Jesus are contrary to Allah's,why?

Postby manfred » Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:56 am

Garudaman wrote:QS. 5:48. And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what God has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had God willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To God is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.



Yes, that is clearly how in early Islam at least the Qur'an was seen too: as a sort of "key" to clarify and explain the biblical texts. The point here is that in saying the Qur'an is the "criterion" (the "point of judgement") it also accepts the text as it is. It does not say someone changed it, in fact, anywhere in the Qur'an.

Surely the Qur'an does not exist to fully explain a fake book, right?

In fact if you look:
To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;


The Qur'an is there to re-iterate the "original" message, make it clear, so that people do not follow their "vain desires". This original message is contained in "the scripture that came before it ("it"=the Qur'an)",which are the biblical texts which, the Qur'an says here, Allah has been "guarding in safety".
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Re: The teachings of Jesus are contrary to Allah's,why?

Postby SAM » Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:49 am

manfred wrote:
Whatever you say Allah knows more than you. None of People the Book denied at the time that they came to meet and debate with Muhammad.


Well, even in his own book "Allah" did not say that anyone actually changed any biblical texts, and according to you, he knows best.

And sure, you are right, some Jews and Christians did meet Mohammed and listened to him, and even had discussions with him perhaps.

On the whole, this was resoundingly unsuccessful for Mohammed, though, as he was not only disbelieved, he was also laughed at.

This made Mohammed bitter and angry, and this is where the hatred towards Jews and Christians in the Qur'an comes from. If you look at the various sections about Jews and Christians in chronological order (and there are a lot of them) you can see that it starts with fairly conciliatory verses, when Mohammed tried to get them to accept Islam and still thought it may work, then his views harden against first the Jews and finally the Christians too, ending in 9:29 and the odious"slay and be slain" verse.

His failure to win over Jews and Christians in Mecca also largely explains the much more violent approach to spreading Islam of the older Mohammed.
Quran 9:29, Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day,..

They deserve to be killed who deny and not believe in Allah. :horseride:

And who told you that Muhammad attacked Christians. :shock: You just blindly blurt out.. :lotpot:

Quran 9.111, "they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an:"
Jomo Kenyatta, President of Kenya “When the Missionaries arrived, the Africans had the land and the Missionaries had the Bible. They taught how to pray with our eyes closed. When we opened them, they had the land and we had the Bible.” :*)
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Re: The teachings of Jesus are contrary to Allah's,why?

Postby Nosuperstition » Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:56 am

frankie wrote:The teachings of Jesus rest on obeying the Ten Commandments which command mankind to have unconditional love for one another, regardless of faith.


Christians have reformed a lot,but then is Jesus such a passive figure head of ipso moto considering what had happened in the past.

battle cry of Christus vincit,Christus regnat,Christus imperit.



https://books.google.co.in/books?id=n17j3Cc0mMUC&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=Christus+Regnat+battle+cry+of+crusaders&source=bl&ots=rxUnXx0oBY&sig=opLlbTmnI1eHwr1nw2h8a04bhcQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjV2o-snNXRAhWIvY8KHaAFC30Q6AEIGTAA#v=onepage&q=Christus%20Regnat%20battle%20cry%20of%20crusaders&f=false

https://catholicismpure.wordpress.com/2014/04/21/christus-vincit-christus-regnat-christus-imperat/

For some of the things mentioned in the second link to materialise to reality,bloodshed is inevitable.
A drinker of alcoholic liquors becomes cleansed by drinking hot alcohol.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m12/m12a164.htm
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Re: The teachings of Jesus are contrary to Allah's,why?

Postby manfred » Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:12 am

SAM wrote:They deserve to be killed who deny and not believe in Allah.


OK, according to you, the good Muslim, anyone who does not believe in your "Allah" needs to be killed. When are you joining ISIS? Or are they too "moderate" for you?

SAM wrote:And who told you that Muhammad attacked Christians.


I have not (yet) mentioned any actual, physical attacks. I described to you the development in the views the Qur'an expresses with regard to Christians.

But as you mention it....

Also disproving the myth that Muhammad only fought in self-defense is the account of his first attack on the Christians. There was no compelling reason for him to send an army to Muta (in Syria, where they met with disaster at the hands of the Byzantines). Had this been a matter of self-defense, then the enemy would surely have followed the routed army back to Arabia, but this was not the case (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 791).

Near the end of his life, the prophet of Islam directed military campaigns for the mere purpose of spreading Islamic rule. He knew that some cities would resist and others would not. He left instructions to his people for dealing with each case:

The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: If you come to a township (which has surrendered without a formal war) and stay therein, you have a share (that will be in the form of an award) in (the properties obtained from) it. If a township disobeys Allah and His Messenger (and actually fights against the Muslims) one-fifth of the booty seized therefrom is for Allah and His Apostle and the rest is for you. (Sahih Muslim 4346)

It seems your Qur'an is giving you some kind of hysterical laughter attack, SAM... try to calm down.
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Re: The teachings of Jesus are contrary to Allah's,why?

Postby SAM » Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:01 pm

manfred wrote:
SAM wrote:They deserve to be killed who deny and not believe in Allah.


OK, according to you, the good Muslim, anyone who does not believe in your "Allah" needs to be killed. When are you joining ISIS? Or are they too "moderate" for you?
Like I said, you are a poor debater and inconsistent... Always run out of things to say in debate. :yuk:

SAM wrote:And who told you that Muhammad attacked Christians.


I have not (yet) mentioned any actual, physical attacks. I described to you the development in the views the Qur'an expresses with regard to Christians.

But as you mention it....

Also disproving the myth that Muhammad only fought in self-defense is the account of his first attack on the Christians. There was no compelling reason for him to send an army to Muta (in Syria, where they met with disaster at the hands of the Byzantines). Had this been a matter of self-defense, then the enemy would surely have followed the routed army back to Arabia, but this was not the case (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 791).

Near the end of his life, the prophet of Islam directed military campaigns for the mere purpose of spreading Islamic rule. He knew that some cities would resist and others would not. He left instructions to his people for dealing with each case:

The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: If you come to a township (which has surrendered without a formal war) and stay therein, you have a share (that will be in the form of an award) in (the properties obtained from) it. If a township disobeys Allah and His Messenger (and actually fights against the Muslims) one-fifth of the booty seized therefrom is for Allah and His Apostle and the rest is for you. (Sahih Muslim 4346)

It seems your Qur'an is giving you some kind of hysterical laughter attack, SAM... try to calm down.
You copy and paste from the Myths of Muhammad because you can not prove Muhammad attacked Christians in Mecca and Medina. :roflmao:

Quran 9:29, about the conflict between Muslims and the Quraysh and the Jews in Mecca and Medina, which has nothing to do with Christianity.

In 628 AD, a delegation from St. Catherine’s Monastery came to Prophet Muhammed and requested his protection.

The Eternal Promise:

“This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them. Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by God! I hold out against anything that displeases them. No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims’ houses. Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God’s covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate. No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray. Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants. No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).”


You want validation and verification, http://www.sinaimonastery.com/en/index.php?lid=68 :reading:
Jomo Kenyatta, President of Kenya “When the Missionaries arrived, the Africans had the land and the Missionaries had the Bible. They taught how to pray with our eyes closed. When we opened them, they had the land and we had the Bible.” :*)
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Re: The teachings of Jesus are contrary to Allah's,why?

Postby manfred » Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:19 pm

SAM, I know about that story and the Syrian monastery... it refers to an occasion when the monks there allowed Mohammed and mates to hide in the monastery grounds when they were on the run.

So in a moment of weakness he promised to treat them as he really should treat anyone, and made out it was some kind of privilege. He did not bother the monks of St Catherine's , true, but that did not stop him from persecuting Christians elsewhere.

Also, I see you are shifting grounds again... first you say Mohammed never attacked any Christians, and when I gave you an example, with source, you suddenly say, well, he never attacked any IN MECCA or MEDINA...

Perhaps you should read the old text by Ibn Ishaq, or other texts telling you the details of the life of Mohammed, and learn a little more about this man you venerate so much.

in 629, just before his conquest of Mecca, he attacked the Christians of Muta, and was defeated. (The story of the monastery of St Catherine's relates to his retreat after his defeat on that occasion) In the year after the conquest of Mecca, in 631, he ordered a raid into the Christian territory of Tabuk, in apparent oblivion of his previous promise, but in reality sanctioned by his ever useful helper Allah. They would have been more raids and attacks, but he died the following year.

His successors finished what he started and destroyed ancient civilisations wherever they found them.
SAM wrote:Quran 9:29, about the conflict between Muslims and the Quraysh and the Jews in Mecca and Medina, which has nothing to do with Christianity.


Really? In that case let's have a closer look at the section, and put it into context both textual and historical:

Mecca had just been taken, and a debate arouse among the Muslims... If the Kaaba will not longer be allowed to be a centre of worship for the pagan Arabs, Muslims would loose INCOME!!!

To answer the grumbling Muslims, Allah said

O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.


9:28

So, first of all, the Kaaba will not be open for business to the pagans from now on. However Allah promised an alternative source of income, and how this will be done is explained in the next verse:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

9:29

Instead of worrying about collecting money from the Kaaba, here is a new plan, spelled out in the verse:

Attack the Jews and Christians, and extort money from them. There you go, there you have your replacement income. This is barely a year after the promise to the monks...

And in case there are any raised eye brows among the Muslims, some of whom may have remembered the promise to the monks just a few months ago, this command is followed by:

The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!


9:30

Here the Jews and Christians are basically called polytheists, and this is the reason the new approach is allowed. This is quite at odds with earlier instructions in the Qur'an, but fits in exactly with the events in Mohammed life.

And as always, Mohammed was hedging his bets... On one hand, he ordered that Jews and Christians must make good the loss of income due to no more pagan worship being allowed in Mecca, on the other, he simply gave the old pagan centre an Islamic make-over with all new tales of Abraham and Ishmael, and then went to kiss the old idol, the black stone, turning it into something "Islamic" too. All of a sudden the Kaaba could make money again, but this time from Muslims who effectively do very little different from the "pagans" just before, but with a new "meaning" provided by Mohammed.

You have to hand it to him, he certainly knew how to generate cash.
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Re: The teachings of Jesus are contrary to Allah's,why?

Postby SAM » Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:46 am

manfred wrote:SAM, I know about that story and the Syrian monastery... it refers to an occasion when the monks there allowed Mohammed and mates to hide in the monastery grounds when they were on the run.

So in a moment of weakness he promised to treat them as he really should treat anyone, and made out it was some kind of privilege. He did not bother the monks of St Catherine's , true, but that did not stop him from persecuting Christians elsewhere.

Also, I see you are shifting grounds again... first you say Mohammed never attacked any Christians, and when I gave you an example, with source, you suddenly say, well, he never attacked any IN MECCA or MEDINA...

Perhaps you should read the old text by Ibn Ishaq, or other texts telling you the details of the life of Mohammed, and learn a little more about this man you venerate so much.

in 629, just before his conquest of Mecca, he attacked the Christians of Muta, and was defeated. (The story of the monastery of St Catherine's relates to his retreat after his defeat on that occasion) In the year after the conquest of Mecca, in 631, he ordered a raid into the Christian territory of Tabuk, in apparent oblivion of his previous promise, but in reality sanctioned by his ever useful helper Allah. They would have been more raids and attacks, but he died the following year.

His successors finished what he started and destroyed ancient civilisations wherever they found them.
SAM wrote:Quran 9:29, about the conflict between Muslims and the Quraysh and the Jews in Mecca and Medina, which has nothing to do with Christianity.


Really? In that case let's have a closer look at the section, and put it into context both textual and historical:

Mecca had just been taken, and a debate arouse among the Muslims... If the Kaaba will not longer be allowed to be a centre of worship for the pagan Arabs, Muslims would loose INCOME!!!

To answer the grumbling Muslims, Allah said

O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.


9:28

So, first of all, the Kaaba will not be open for business to the pagans from now on. However Allah promised an alternative source of income, and how this will be done is explained in the next verse:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

9:29

Instead of worrying about collecting money from the Kaaba, here is a new plan, spelled out in the verse:

Attack the Jews and Christians, and extort money from them. There you go, there you have your replacement income. This is barely a year after the promise to the monks...

And in case there are any raised eye brows among the Muslims, some of whom may have remembered the promise to the monks just a few months ago, this command is followed by:

The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!


9:30

Here the Jews and Christians are basically called polytheists, and this is the reason the new approach is allowed. This is quite at odds with earlier instructions in the Qur'an, but fits in exactly with the events in Mohammed life.

And as always, Mohammed was hedging his bets... On one hand, he ordered that Jews and Christians must make good the loss of income due to no more pagan worship being allowed in Mecca, on the other, he simply gave the old pagan centre an Islamic make-over with all new tales of Abraham and Ishmael, and then went to kiss the old idol, the black stone, turning it into something "Islamic" too. All of a sudden the Kaaba could make money again, but this time from Muslims who effectively do very little different from the "pagans" just before, but with a new "meaning" provided by Mohammed.

You have to hand it to him, he certainly knew how to generate cash.
:blahblah1: You are too much mumbling :blahblah1: and still unable to provide evidence that Christians were attacked in Mecca and Medina. :roflmao:
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