Knowing the real Mohammed

[manfred]

You seem to carefully select texts suggesting that the Qur'an only allows self-defence. Surely you know that is not the case?

[Garudaman]

texts in which one of them is included your "late surah"!

[manfred]

There are several later surahs, by definition, and on last ones is surah 9.

There is a gradual shift from the "defend yourself" idea to fighting aggressively. These verses ask to fight to death people purely because the do not believe in Islam. This is a major theme in surah 9:

"So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

- "Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people."

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Quran: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."

"O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

[Garudaman]

There are several later surahs, by definition, and on last ones is surah 9.

There is a gradual shift from the "defend yourself" idea to fighting aggressively. These verses ask to fight to death people purely because the do not believe in Islam. This is a major theme in surah 9:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

no, those verses can't be ask it, as "break the peace oath/attack first (QS. 9:13)" can't be means don't believe in Islam, while "believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth (QS. 9:29)" can be means attack/fight first.

"So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

why you didn't started it from very beginning, so you know that the slay, is the slay due to disassociation of treaty :

QS. 9:1. [This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists.

a treaty of peace :

QS. 9:13. Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers.

[Fernando]

The Qur'an is a violent and hateful collections of texts.

nope, The Quran is truth and wiseful collections of texts.

Garudaman, be careful what you echo! From Manfred's lips, "a collection of texts" could be derogatory, calling the Koran a book gathered from pieces of earlier work. Echoed by your lips, that could be blasphemy!

[frankie]

Where is your evidence from Islamic sources which contradicts this?

QS. 9:13. Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers.

QS. 2:190. Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.

QS. 22:39. Permission [to fight] has been given to those who are being fought, because they were wronged. And indeed, Allah is competent to give them victory.

QS. 4:90-91. Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them. You will find others who wish to obtain security from you and [to] obtain security from their people. Every time they are returned to [the influence of] disbelief, they fall back into it. So if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them. And those - We have made for you against them a clear authorization.

QS. 5:32. Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.

QS. 2:256. There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

QS. 5:48. And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a clear way. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one community [united in one religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.

QS. 10:99. And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely. Then, [O Muhammad], would you compel the people in order that they become believers?

Garudaman:

Quran 2.216

"Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

http://quranx.com/Tafsirs/2.216


Verse 2.216 is contradicted by both the verses you quote, and the Tafsirs.

The people who translated Allah's words do not agree with the Quran, the commenters in effect are guilty of blasphemy, as is Mohammed, because he fought people who were not at war with him.

Your conative dissonance forbids you to perceive the obvious.

The Quran says one thing, and its prophet and commentators say and do the opposite, which should not be the case, if the Quran was truly from a divine source, they should all agree with each other, there should be no contradictions.


The Quran proves it cannot come from any divine source, as any god worthy of the name would not make any contradictions, which would lead to error and confusion.

Allah did make contradictions,as the state of the Islamic world proves conclusively.

[Garudaman]

Verse 2.216 is contradicted by both the verses you quote, and the Tafsirs.

Quran 2.216

"Fighting (QS. 9:13. a people who broke their oaths [of peace] and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time) is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

[frankie]

Verse 2.216 is contradicted by both the verses you quote, and the Tafsirs.

Quran 2.216

"Fighting (QS. 9:13. a people who broke their oaths [of peace] and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time) is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Garudaman


The Quran is not a god made book which is why there are contradictions within it,which you prove, by using verse 9:13 to confirm what you claim.

BUT,

QS 2.216 is fully explained in the tafsir,which agrees with the objective of Islam, which is to "proclaim Islam over all religion "by fighting disbelievers, which is what Mohammed claimed he had been ordered to do.

Was Mohammed disobeying or obeying Allah when he fought people to bring them to accept Allah as the only god?

Al-Jalalayn
Prescribed for you, obligatory [for you], is fighting, disbelievers, though it be hateful to you, by nature, because of the hardship involved. Yet it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you; and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you: because the soul inclines towards those desires which result in its destruction and its rejection of the religious obligations that would bring about its happiness. Perhaps, then, even if you are averse to it, you will find much good in fighting, as a result of victory, booty, martyrdom or reward; while, if you were to reject fighting, even if you would like to do so, you will find much evil, because then you may be subjugated, impoverished and denied the reward; God knows, what is good for you, and you know, this, not, so strive in what He commands you.



Abu Musa Al-Ash'ari (May Allah be pleased with him) reported that Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) was asked about who fights in the battlefield out of valour, or out of zeal, or out of hypocrisy, which of this is considered as fighting in the cause of Allah? He said:
"He who fights in order that the Word of Allah remains the supreme, is considered as fighting in the cause of Allah".

[Al-Bukhari and Muslim].
https://sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/1/8


Sahih Al Bukhari Vol 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 196.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has
the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and
property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)