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Re: Can anyone rspond to any of this:

PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:09 pm
by glitch
Hombre wrote:
Nosuperstition wrote:I have seen in Hollywood films in which wives speak of their pious or virtuous or good husbands as God fearing.In Islam and Christianity due to the concepts of One life with one everlasting Heaven and one everlasting Hell,the period for which this God fearing enforced goodness should exist is for all of life and by I am not stretching anything by any stretch of imagination. :thumbdown:

And word 'naar' in Hebrew is used for both lads and 24 year old young men according to one site on the net.Now if Abraham had to wait until some 100+ years to conceive in those time periods i.e if he were to become sexually mature at 100+ years of age(living for 100s of years by many of the mythical characters of the O.T is seen as a sign of piety),24 years does seem to be pretty young age if one goes by those texts,even if they are assumed to be 24.

Now And those people have not planned to kill him.Show me where it says so,instead of making up excuses and stories.They just make a mockery of him calling him 'bald head'.That by no means is sufficient enough to cause them to be devoured by bears.So in effect silencing of critics is done even if it is to be done with cursing your opponents with death with the power of God.Same is the case in Islam.

You missed the ending of that movie. Those bears which you mention, ended up devouring hamburgers in that McDonald fastfood on Hollywood Blvd. Then, to show they treat all religion equally, they went to Humus/Fallafel & Sheesh kabab places and devourd them too.

As for the word "na'ar" נער usually referred to teen age boys - not necessarily to 24 year old man



Dude, so you are a now a hebrew scholar. I've already explained it was a gang of 42 thugs. They aren't children at all.

The Hebrew word can refer to children, but rather more specifically means "young men." The NIV, quoted here, uses the word “youths.” Second, the fact that the bears mauled 42 of the youths indicates that there were more than 42 youths involved.

They aren't children at all, and they are threatening a prophet--a man they know has power, and a man who follows a known man before him who was literally raised to heaven. They are telling him to _die_.

I'm done with this, since all you can do is show the same statments over and over, and that is your belief that 42 children all chose at once to make fun of "some guy." and God chose to kill them for that.
They knew exactly what they were doing and who he was.

Thanks for playing Hombre.

Re: Can anyone rspond to any of this:

PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:48 pm
by Hombre
glitch wrote:Thanks for playing Hombre.
:bggrn:

Re: Can anyone rspond to any of this:

PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:17 pm
by manfred
Oh dear, glitch, hombre is Jewish and he can read the text in the original language.
The HB does though, as you say, use the term variously sometimes meaning children sometimes clearly not.

The scenario painted in the story really does not allow the notion it means children in this context. No reasonable person would curse children whatever they may say. And we are told it was an awful lot of them... enough for Elisha to feel threatened. No adult really gets scared of children, do they?

I think the nearest English word we have for this term נער is a "lad". That is equally ambiguous and can mean a kid as well as a man up to about 25, perhaps, and anything in between. It also can have that same mischievous connotation. If you call someone a "lad" it can be quite neutral, but it can also imply immature or rude behaviour.

So glitch, when hombre mentions something involving the Hebrew language, i pay attention. I do know classical Hebrew quite well, but I am certainly no match for Hombre on that.

At the end of the day, the question of the age of these people fades to insignificance when you realise that the tale, like the two before it, are devices to establish the legitimacy of Elisha, and have no intention to make any statement about the cruelty or otherwise of God. I do not take any of the three tales as a description of events, but as pieces of writing to make a point. They may or may not have some origin in actual events, but they have certainly been worked over to express a view, and not to merely tell a story.

Re: Can anyone rspond to any of this:

PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:04 pm
by Nosuperstition
And it is believable to believe that 2 bears can devour many 24 year adults to satiate their dinosaur appetites.

And that is not the only instance when children get victimised in the O.T when God of Abraham is offended/when his people/prophets are offended.



if its not the only instance then show it. Show them. Don't act like a typical muslim and say there's lots of examples and provide none.


Well,inside of the promised land,even children are an affront to God,hence a total genocide is ordered to be perpetrated on the Canaanites.And perhaps you can explain why the Samaritan babies are to be dashed to ground as a form of punishment from God.

When the conquistadors conquered the New World,when native women with children in their arms appeared before them,they would kill those babies.In some other places,they would test their strength of manhood by hacking local lads into pieces in one strike using swords.

Perhaps as believing Christians they had these Biblical stories as their source of inspiration or may be going by them naming the forests and a major river of South America after Amazonians,a mythical race of female pagan Greek warriors who fought on the side of Troy in the Trojan war,they were more enamored of pagan classics,we do not know.

However if those stories containing baby killing episodes at the behest of God did not occur in the O.T,might be they would cease to be an inspiration for the future generations.

Re: Can anyone rspond to any of this:

PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:32 pm
by Nosuperstition
glitch wrote:See, because jews get a pass because its so much easier to bash christians..


Jewish majority Israel has to import submarines from Germany, a Christian majority country.Hindu majority India too has to send its naval ships to the U.K,a Christian majority country for the sake of repairs (some of those vessels getting unnecessarily and illegitimately detained sometimes for political reasons)

So neither Jews nor Hindus are in a position to take over the world.Guess who is in such a position?

Re: Can anyone rspond to any of this:

PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:14 pm
by manfred
And perhaps you can explain why the Samaritan babies are to be dashed to ground as a form of punishment from God.


I see, you found another little nugget, like Elisha and the bears.

You are referring to Hosea, chapter 13, I presume. Have you read the chapter? Probably not.

Let me make it simple: Hosea is an HB prophet, one of the earliest ones. He, like the others, remind the Israelites of God's saving grace, of God's work of taken them out of Egypt. He is also, like other prophets, highly critical of the behaviour and sliding standards of his contemporaries.

When a prophet speaks, he very often uses imagery to shock and contrast, to make people think. This is also happening in that passage. he is trying to wake people from a trance, make them consider their roots.

“I will deliver this people from the power of the grave;
I will redeem them from death.
Where, O death, are your plagues?
Where, O grave, is your destruction?


Followed immediately by


“I will have no compassion,
15
even though he thrives among his brothers.
An east wind from the Lord will come,
blowing in from the desert;
his spring will fail
and his well dry up.
His storehouse will be plundered
of all its treasures.
16
The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open.”


You are looking at a SERMON, NS. He neither makes a prediction that this will happen not tries to say this is what should happen. He makes a comment, using imagery, on the consequences of abandoning the God of Israel. He is trying to get people to consider their choices in life, but giving them a quite violent shaking with harsh words.

Re: Can anyone rspond to any of this:

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:48 pm
by Nosuperstition
glitch wrote:I notice you jump straight from chirstianity and islam and say nothing about judiasm, as usual, but that doesn't stop you , as usual from quoting from the old testement and bashing the hell out of Christians--and then oh so conveniently saying nothing about Jews.


Why should I bother about superstitions be they are of any religion.Seeing you,I am reminded of how Hindus whined at attributetohinduism site about how Christians make fun of Hindu superstitious beliefs such as the famous flying monkey Hanuman while getting offended when they are told that Christ did not rise to the Heavens from his grave on the third day after his death.Such is the childish attachment to religious fiction cooked up by the crooks of religious stories.I do not care about any superstition as long as they do not bring about death on a massive scale or are capable of mass deaths.And I did bash all of the three theHindu,Islamic and Christian beliefs.And regarding Judaism and Buddhism,I know not much.Hence I express my inability to bash them.

Re: Can anyone rspond to any of this:

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:18 pm
by Hombre
glitch wrote:The Hebrew word can refer to children, but rather more specifically means "young men." The NIV, quoted here, uses the word “youths.” Second, the fact that the bears mauled 42 of the youths indicates that there were more than 42 youths involved.

They aren't children at all, and they are threatening a prophet--a man they know has power, and a man who follows a known man before him who was literally raised to heaven. They are telling him to _die_.

I'm done with this, since all you can do is show the same statments over and over, and that is your belief that 42 children all chose at once to make fun of "some guy." and God chose to kill them for that.
They knew exactly what they were doing and who he was.

Thanks for playing Hombre.
Hebrew language is gender driven, much like Spanish. The Word Na'ar (נער ) is derived from the stem נוער no'ar (youth). Likewise, Yeled or Yaldah (ילד / ילדה) refer to boy, girl, or a child. Therefore, words like Yal-day (ילדיי) means children of.......
It all depends the context in which these words are used.

Re: Can anyone rspond to any of this:

PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 3:52 pm
by Nosuperstition
glitch wrote:Now i'm done with you as i am with most coward athiests who want to paint Yahweh as this evil coward who kills children indescriminately, they are thugs who derided a man of important power, took the risk of doing so, having supposedly known what happened over and over to people who tried to kill moses, over and over and over.


Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.


http://biblehub.com/matthew/10-39.htm

Yes, I am not a follower of your death cult and would love to be a loser to enjoy this wonderful world and towards that end I do advocate co-existence of contradictory dogmas as long as they do not go for one another's throats.But that does not mean that I will sit quietly if my loved ones are likely to be harmed because they refuse to be a shoved with a dogma that is against their conscience.Then you will really see how even a coward will take you head on.

Re: Can anyone rspond to any of this:

PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:46 pm
by manfred
Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.


I see you have not even the slightest clue as to what this means. And you are not even interested in finding out are you? Well, I tell you anyway, just so you know.

It says that happiness can only be found as a by-product. If you make being happy in life your goal, you'll never attain it. Devoting your life to finding happiness ends up only losing you both happiness and your life in the end. But make some worthwhile goal your life's ambition - to serve God, by serving others in some way, and you will often find that happiness creeps up and surprises you.

God gave us life to spend and not to keep. If we live carefully, protecting our own life, always thinking first of our own profit, ease, comfort, security, if our sole aim is to make life as long and trouble-free as possible, if we will make no effort except for ourselves, we are losing life all the time. But if we spend life for others, if we forget health and time and wealth and comfort in our desire to do something for something OTHER than ourselves, something better, we are winning life all the time.

Life and happiness is found in OTHERS.

Re: Can anyone rspond to any of this:

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:35 pm
by Nosuperstition
I see you have not even the slightest clue as to what this means. And you are not even interested in finding out are you? Well, I tell you anyway, just so you know.

It says that happiness can only be found as a by-product. If you make being happy in life your goal, you'll never attain it. Devoting your life to finding happiness ends up only losing you both happiness and your life in the end. But make some worthwhile goal your life's ambition - to serve God, by serving others in some way, and you will often find that happiness creeps up and surprises you.

God gave us life to spend and not to keep. If we live carefully, protecting our own life, always thinking first of our own profit, ease, comfort, security, if our sole aim is to make life as long and trouble-free as possible, if we will make no effort except for ourselves, we are losing life all the time. But if we spend life for others, if we forget health and time and wealth and comfort in our desire to do something for something OTHER than ourselves, something better, we are winning life all the time.

Life and happiness is found in OTHERS.


Much depends on the way one tries to interpret things.Giving up your life for the sake of Christ i.e becoming a martyr for Christ is also one of the way the above sentence was interpreted.No wonder Rome had so many Christian martyrs.

http://biblehub.com/matthew/10-39.htm

Some of the traditional interpretations given in the footnotes of the above verse make that amply clear.

Re: Can anyone rspond to any of this:

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:41 pm
by Nosuperstition
http://biblehub.com/2_timothy/4-6.htm

The same can also be found in the explanation given in the footnotes of the above verse.Just scroll below and you will find this commentary.

The blood of the martyrs, though not a sacrifice of atonement, yet was a sacrifice of acknowledgment to the grace of God and his truth.

Re: Can anyone rspond to any of this:

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 5:10 pm
by frankie
Nosuperstition wrote:
I see you have not even the slightest clue as to what this means. And you are not even interested in finding out are you? Well, I tell you anyway, just so you know.

It says that happiness can only be found as a by-product. If you make being happy in life your goal, you'll never attain it. Devoting your life to finding happiness ends up only losing you both happiness and your life in the end. But make some worthwhile goal your life's ambition - to serve God, by serving others in some way, and you will often find that happiness creeps up and surprises you.

God gave us life to spend and not to keep. If we live carefully, protecting our own life, always thinking first of our own profit, ease, comfort, security, if our sole aim is to make life as long and trouble-free as possible, if we will make no effort except for ourselves, we are losing life all the time. But if we spend life for others, if we forget health and time and wealth and comfort in our desire to do something for something OTHER than ourselves, something better, we are winning life all the time.

Life and happiness is found in OTHERS.


Much depends on the way one tries to interpret things.Giving up your life for the sake of Christ i.e becoming a martyr for Christ is also one of the way the above sentence was interpreted. No wonder Rome had so many Christian martyrs.

http://biblehub.com/matthew/10-39.htm

Some of the traditional interpretations given in the footnotes of the above verse make that amply clear.


Nosuperstition.

No wonder Rome had so many Christian martyrs.


Martyrdom has always been forced upon Chrisians,they do not actively seek it.

Christianity is about actively renouncing self, in favour of others.

Nowhere in Christian scripture does Jesus advocate Christians to seek to become martyrs for their faith.

It is what others do to Christians when they speak the Gospel message, who are in the wrong.

Re: Can anyone rspond to any of this:

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:10 pm
by manfred
Frankie, nosuperstition has his very own, unique way to read religious texts...

for example, if he were to come across the word "psychotherapist" in some religious text he would swear blind it says "psycho the rapist" and then tell us a yarn what it all means and how religions in general and Christianity in particular demands the rape of specially atheist Indians.

What is interesting though, he has very little to say about Islam, his main hobby horse is Christianity, or rather the enormeous menacing looking strawman he calls Christianity.

Re: Can anyone rspond to any of this:

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:30 pm
by Amanalice
@Manfred

Do you follow any religion?

Sorry for the interruption, just got curious that you cant take against Christianity.

Plz correct me if its other wise.

Re: Can anyone rspond to any of this:

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 7:27 pm
by manfred
Oh, I have not problems at all with people saying things about Christianity, but I get irritated when things are deliberately twisted and posts to sort it out are ignored.

Discuss , great, explore together, share ideas, wonderful, hobby horses and hang ups, less amazing.

Nosuperstition posted also a number of quite offensive anti-semitic comments, and he has no intention to either know nor describe Christianity or any other religion as it really is, he only wants to paint a caricature of Christianity, which most Western people can recognise as false. If I leave that stand without a comment, many readers will assume that all we say about Islam is merely a joke as well, and blinkered picture, damaging the purpose of the sight.

He also frequently derails topics away from Islam, so that the whole point of discussions and inputs get buried.

Re: Can anyone rspond to any of this:

PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 5:03 pm
by Nosuperstition
Oh, I have not problems at all with people saying things about Christianity, but I get irritated when things are deliberately twisted and posts to sort it out are ignored.


If you really have that much confidence in your religion,you will not get irritated.That only shows that there certainly is truth in my arguments presented with proper evidence and reasoning.And regarding my comments being anti-Semitic,you are for the rights of one group of Semitic people namely the Jews in that you support their right to return to their supposed ancestral home,Israel but stridently oppose the migration of muslims whose ancestors , the Phoenicians,another group of Semites thrived along Mediterranean coast and even on the U.K coast before being driven into obscurity by the Romans.Shows what sort of a hypocrite you are.

Re: Can anyone rspond to any of this:

PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 5:22 pm
by manfred
If you really have that much confidence in your religion,you will not get irritated.That only shows that there certainly is truth in my arguments presented with proper evidence and reasoning.And regarding my comments being anti-Semitic,you are for the rights of one group of Semitic people namely the Jews in that you support their right to return to their supposed ancestral home,Israel but stridently oppose the migration of muslims whose ancestors , the Phoenicians,another group of Semites thrived along Mediterranean coast and even on the U.K coast before being driven into obscurity by the Romans.Shows what sort of a hypocrite you are.


I explained what Irritates me, and you are twisting what I said again. And posting annoying and offensive stuff without evidence and research in the way you do does not show any truth in anything you say.

"Phoenicians" have not settled in the UK, what rubbish you write. They are an ancient people whose descendents are today mostly living in Lebanon and Syria.

Re: Can anyone rspond to any of this:

PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 2:17 pm
by glitch
Nosuperstition wrote:Well,inside of the promised land,even children are an affront to God,hence a total genocide is ordered to be perpetrated on the Canaanites.And perhaps you can explain why the Samaritan babies are to be dashed to ground as a form of punishment from God.


Yeah and i also need you to provide references. These aren't quotes.



When the conquistadors conquered the New World,when native women with children in their arms appeared before them,they would kill those babies.In some other places,they would test their strength of manhood by hacking local lads into pieces in one strike using swords.


I'm not responsible, nor will i answer for the actions of the conquistadors, and secondly, this is the first time i've heard any of that, so provide a reference of shut up.



Perhaps as believing Christians they had these Biblical stories as their source of inspiration or may be going by them naming the forests and a major river of South America after Amazonians,a mythical race of female pagan Greek warriors who fought on the side of Troy in the Trojan war,they were more enamored of pagan classics,we do not know.


The last part here is just you being snarks and i won't answer for Greeks or Amazons....

However if those stories containing baby killing episodes at the behest of God did not occur in the O.T,



Again snarky comment. just because something appears in the OT i would like to remind you, if it isn't God who orderded it, and its the Cannonites who are doing it, again, turn your head and say like a typical muslim, that to even mention it is wrong whereas the Old Testement God puts a stop to it. Now, provide direct references or stop wasting my time.

Re: Can anyone rspond to any of this:

PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 2:29 pm
by glitch
Nosuperstition wrote:
glitch wrote:Now i'm done with you as i am with most coward athiests who want to paint Yahweh as this evil coward who kills children indescriminately, they are thugs who derided a man of important power, took the risk of doing so, having supposedly known what happened over and over to people who tried to kill moses, over and over and over.


Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.


http://biblehub.com/matthew/10-39.htm

Yes, I am not a follower of your death cult and would love to be a loser to enjoy this wonderful world and towards that end I do advocate co-existence of contradictory dogmas as long as they do not go for one another's throats.But that does not mean that I will sit quietly if my loved ones are likely to be harmed because they refuse to be a shoved with a dogma that is against their conscience.Then you will really see how even a coward will take you head on.


as never
Hey, who is trying to force any of that down your throat. You are the one coming to this sight, attacking Christinaity, not jewish people over a passage whose complete context you ignore. The storyline is that those "kids" as you would have then are innocent little boys who decided to make fun of a bald man, who by all accounts wasn't bald and then God, in the story decides to kill them for an affront which has never warranted the death penalty...

AS i pointed out and you keep ignoring the Hebrew is always very careful over its terms and these "kids" aren't kids. in fact there are 42 of them and they are actually in an Area known for dangerous behavior and no that isnt isreal.

Whenever i ask people like you to really look at the bible, youonly want to talk about what you percieve as just something so Horrid it can't be explained and because of that, again, except for some Vague reference, of Conquistadors, you can't find a single damn example of Christians killing children because the quote "bible tells me so." Which is doesn't. In Fact christians are extremely concerned with the lives of children and babies, and i'm sorry but Thou Shall not Murder is a seminal commandment.

The point I see constantly is when God does something Good--you don't give a damn, and when he saves human life, yu dont give a damn, but read a passage where men talk about something strange, or discuss the criminal acts of other men and you know what, all bets are off and God is evil and wrong and you cant deal with any discussion of Babykiller God, because thats all you see at all.