Can anyone rspond to any of this:

[glitch]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EdaAR0frtw

I find that his examples are a few. Also free speech doesn't really exist under islam, so i don't see it as people really speaking up against Islam.

[pr126]

Quran 005:082

Yusufali Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

taqiyya

He never mentioned what Muhammad did to the Jews in Arabia. It is all in the hadits, and sirat rasool.

The comments are disabled on his video. With good reason.

[glitch]

i noticed that, i was curious about the supposed man that this guy says Jews refer to as the "second" moses.

[Nosuperstition]

Quran 005:082

Yusufali Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

taqiyya

He never mentioned what Muhammad did to the Jews in Arabia. It is all in the hadits, and sirat rasool.

The comments are disabled on his video. With good reason.

Well , raised a Hindu and as someone was taught the same values as that of a pagan Roman i.e that all religions lead to God,I never had enmity with either Muslims/Islam.Even when I was between 19 and 22 years of age,I used to bow down to a Dargah(the tomb of a muslim saint) enroute to my college.That was in accordance with the Hindu memes.Now only after I came to know about real theological propositions of Islam at FFI,did I begin to contemplate on the validity of their beliefs.

Perhaps , Muhammad believed that as Christians too have the concepts of One life,almost One God,One day of Judgement,One everlasting Hell,One eternal hell ,that makes them renounce the worldly pleasures more so than the pagans and Jews.Perhaps that might make Christians more inclined to believe in his message than the pagans and Jews who did not believe in an everlasting Hell.

[Fernando]

Tzortzis never mentions jizya or dhimmitude. But he gives the game away at 4'40" when he speaks of it being wrong to harm a non-Muslim "under our protection". i.e. a dhimmi who has paid the jizya protection money.
He a well known British convert and apologist for Islam heavily involved with the "Islamic Education and Research Academy" (iERA) which has run segregated meetings in universities.

[Nosuperstition]

Quran 005:082

Yusufali Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

taqiyya

He never mentioned what Muhammad did to the Jews in Arabia. It is all in the hadits, and sirat rasool.

The comments are disabled on his video. With good reason.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=16893&p=224946#p224946

Men devoted to learning also understand one more thing.First , most Buddhists and Hindus believe in multiple reincarnations.Jews believe in One life but not eternal damnation.Both Muslims and Christians believe in eternal damnation of the soul.Hence the polytheists are more open to freeing their minds from the dogma of fear due to their actions and will think and act in what is in their interest regardless of what is prescribed for them.

Yes. but they also don't necessarily teach that good action is the way, they suggest it, but infact with multiple reincarnation attempts for each one simply gets infinite chances to get it right, and Christianity says you get one, so Christians are supposed to act good.

So essentially these people believe themselves to be more virtuous than the polytheists and the Jews.

One of the prophets of old Testament is said to have cursed children to be devoured by bears as they teased him.That spirit of getting killed those that oppose you even in verbal form seems to be something in line with what Mohammed did.

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=16274&p=213558&hilit=bears#p213558

Now those drunk with feeling of superiority by virtue of a greater degree of goodness affirming to themselves that such an idea is something rooted in the truth , will have the 'holier than thou' attitude and will exhibit arrogance at the drop of the hat.That is a direct contradiction to what Muhammad described about them not being arrogant.

Religious figures called rishis or sages even in Hinduism curse at the drop of the hat possibly because when drunk with religiosity,they feel like showing their superiority every now and then.However in most cases they also show magnanimity in suggesting the means to end the curse.

[Nosuperstition]

Perhaps it is when are drunk with the feeling of superiority of your religion that you will be more prone to rioting as had been witnessed in case of Christianity in pagan Rome or in case of Islam in present day kafir India.

[manfred]

Christians rioted in ancient Rome? Really? Because they were drunk???

The only thing remotely like that may be after Constantine, when various factions tried to the the ruler to make them suppress other factions, usually with little effect, as by then the use of councils to solve disputes had already become the norm.

[Hombre]

As pr126 noted, this guy talks after Muhammad succeeded to obliterate all Jews, confiscate their properties in Yatrib, and elsewhere, then 400 years later, we are told how Islam was kind to Jews.

As for his bellicose "Jews preferred Islamic courts over their own rabbinical ones". Labeling it ludicrous is still a complement. The fact is, Jews were forced to use Islamic courts because, Muslims did not recognize, nor respected any Jewish institution.

[Nosuperstition]

Christians rioted in ancient Rome? Really? Because they were drunk???

The only thing remotely like that may be after Constantine, when various factions tried to the the ruler to make them suppress other factions, usually with little effect, as by then the use of councils to solve disputes had already become the norm.

That various factions vying with one another for supremacy can be compared to present day Sunnis and Shias trying to wrest control of the state in West Asia by the use of force.However in Roman times,riots were common in urban areas and Christians who mostly belonged to the low social orders would have actively participated in riots.

Other edicts followed when Christian uprisings took place in the eastern parts of the empire where Christianity was strongest.

http://www.crf-usa.org/bill-of-rights-in-action/bria-13-4-b-religious-tolerance-and-persecution-in-the-roman-empire

When a community has enough guts to even begin and participate in uprisings , rioting is but a small thing for them.

[manfred]

Did you not read even the paragraph you plucked that sentence from?

Suspicious of the loyalty of Christians to the Roman state, Diocletian started persecuting them. He demanded that all Christian soldiers resign from the Roman army. He forbade gatherings for Christian worship and ordered the destruction of churches and sacred writings. Christian members of the government were tortured and executed.

Other edicts followed when Christian uprisings took place in the eastern parts of the empire where Christianity was strongest. Bishops and priests were arrested, tortured, and martyred. In 304, Rome decreed that all Christians sacrifice to the pagan gods or face death.

The "uprisings" were little more than demonstrations, at most minor skirmishes, as we would say today. Christians had no national identity like the Jews, no military leaders, no weapons, no army. They served as a scapegoat for a succession of emperors, and resistance on the whole was minimal because it was futile.

[glitch]

Yes. but they also don't necessarily teach that good action is the way, they suggest it, but infact with multiple reincarnation attempts for each one simply gets infinite chances to get it right, and Christianity says you get one, so Christians are supposed to act good.

So essentially these people believe themselves to be more virtuous than the polytheists and the Jews.

No. I didn't say that, and you're stretching my words. Thanks again for acting like a muslim. Okay, show me where it says Christians are better than anyone. Sorry, ya can't
Game over. I can clearly point out however in the koran where it says Muslims are the best.

One of the prophets of old Testament is said to have cursed children to be devoured by bears as they teased him.That spirit of getting killed those that oppose you even in verbal form seems to be something in line with what Mohammed did.

Nope. You can't. i know the exact passage, and jerks like yourself have been mistranslating it for years. it's a gang of 24 thugs. Adults. Not children. They are on the damascus road, and they are planning to kill him. He doesn't do a thing. A Bear rips them apart and they aren't children. funny now how you have entered this conversation only to bash the christians, again. thanks. noticed you haven't bashed any jews but that basically because you're an athiest coward who basically thinks islam and christianity are the same and you're afraid of the jews beacause you just don't read enough to remotely hold an intelligent conversation.

Thanks for playing though. Coward.

[Nosuperstition]

Yes. but they also don't necessarily teach that good action is the way, they suggest it, but infact with multiple reincarnation attempts for each one simply gets infinite chances to get it right, and Christianity says you get one, so Christians are supposed to act good.

So essentially these people believe themselves to be more virtuous than the polytheists and the Jews.

No. I didn't say that, and you're stretching my words. Thanks again for acting like a muslim. Okay, show me where it says Christians are better than anyone. Sorry, ya can't
Game over. I can clearly point out however in the koran where it says Muslims are the best.

One of the prophets of old Testament is said to have cursed children to be devoured by bears as they teased him.That spirit of getting killed those that oppose you even in verbal form seems to be something in line with what Mohammed did.

Nope. You can't. i know the exact passage, and jerks like yourself have been mistranslating it for years. it's a gang of 24 thugs. Adults. Not children. They are on the damascus road, and they are planning to kill him. He doesn't do a thing. A Bear rips them apart and they aren't children. funny now how you have entered this conversation only to bash the christians, again. thanks. noticed you haven't bashed any jews but that basically because you're an athiest coward who basically thinks islam and christianity are the same and you're afraid of the jews beacause you just don't read enough to remotely hold an intelligent conversation.

Thanks for playing though. Coward.

I have seen in Hollywood films in which wives speak of their pious or virtuous or good husbands as God fearing.In Islam and Christianity due to the concepts of One life with one everlasting Heaven and one everlasting Hell,the period for which this God fearing enforced goodness should exist is for all of life and by I am not stretching anything by any stretch of imagination.

And word 'naar' in Hebrew is used for both lads and 24 year old young men according to one site on the net.Now if Abraham had to wait until some 100+ years to conceive in those time periods i.e if he were to become sexually mature at 100+ years of age(living for 100s of years by many of the mythical characters of the O.T is seen as a sign of piety),24 years does seem to be pretty young age if one goes by those texts,even if they are assumed to be 24.

Now And those people have not planned to kill him.Show me where it says so,instead of making up excuses and stories.They just make a mockery of him calling him 'bald head'.That by no means is sufficient enough to cause them to be devoured by bears.So in effect silencing of critics is done even if it is to be done with cursing your opponents with death with the power of God.Same is the case in Islam.

[manfred]

Good grief NS, will your griping ever end?

I have seen in Hollywood films in which wives speak of their pious or virtuous or good husbands as God fearing.

Ok, excellent. that disproves 4000 years of theology. Who needs to study what the actual teaching is if you can get all your arguments from movies or "so and so said in the old forum..."

And, as repeatedly pointed out, "hell" in Christianity is not God's torture chamber as in Islam. "Hell" is a necessary consequence of humans, being the "children of God" through creation, having free will. God invites, and does not force. If all invitations are rejected then in the end God says "YOUR will be done.", and that person may outlive his/her existence knowing s/he has missed the destiny s/he was made for. It will be an empty existence, but any "torture" is a direct consequence of the people chosen to be there. Imagine a woman spending all her life building her career, only to discover that the one thing she really wanted was a child. If she is old, all she has is her might have beens. She cannot change the past choices she has made.

There is a truly wonderful little story by CS Lewis, best known as the author of The Lion the witch and Wardrobe, but he was in reality a rather inspiring Oxford University Theology professor.

http://www.obooksbooks.com/fantasticfic ... t_Divorce/

The story explains the Christian concept of hell rather cleverly, and in a way you would not want to put down. It is well worth the time to read.

Now, as to Elisha and the bears, one of your favourite passages of the bible it seems... never mind what is there to learn in all that wealth of writing, if you can find some little nugget you can use to confirm your own ideas, why look further?

The first thing about the passage, it follows immediately after the story of Elijah, his mentor, "goes up" to heaven. The young men hence mock Elisha to similarly "go up" (to heaven) as Elijah did, the same word is used, and they call him a bald head, which in the Middle East really is very rude, worse than in our days in the West.

Then Elisha, we read, curses them for not merely insulting him but his role as a prophet, the memory of Elijah and their disrespect to God himself. The "bald head" is quite minor in comparison to the real insult, and suggesting that Elisha cursed them because they mentioned his male pattern baldness is missing the point totally. We are not told if the author even considered this curse to be a just reaction. Why not? Well, because it is not the point of the story. The author wanted to establish something completely different: this Elisha truly was a prophet, the "heir" to Elijah. That is why he tells us about the miracle of the water bowl, and that is why he tells us the story of the bears. He is telling us that Elisha is truly a prophet and his blessings will have wonderful effect, as in the water bowl story, but his curses also will have dire consequences, as the bear story illustrates. He is using stories to make a point about the role and importance of Elisha. That is why he placed these three things together: the "ascension of Elijah", the water bowl and the bears.

Did bear story really happen? Well, given that we have quite a few legends collected together in that passage, probably not, but we don't know for sure. But we don't need that information to make sense of the passage. What we do know is this: the intent of the story of Elisha and the bears was not to suggest that you may go and kill someone who "mocks" God or his prophet, it was a literary device to establish the authenticity of Elisha, and not a licence to cruelty. Remember also that in the HB many characters considered as "heroes" such as Moses or David, also had a dark side the bible does not try to hide.

There are several "give aways" suggesting that the story is really mostly an allegory, which may or may not have a origin in events, but which has had some careful symbolic working over. I give you one of them:

Have you noticed how at the end we read that 42 of these young men were killed? Why that number? It sounds an awful lot of killing for just two bears, an impossible task, so we must look beyond the idea this is merely trying to describe an event.
42 is a number loaded with meaning in the Hebrew tradition. It is 6 times 7. 7 is a symbol for divine perfection, and 6 stands for strife against God's will, for conflict.


It is the number of the sum of the knobs, flowers, and branches of the golden Menorah, ordained by God but fashioned by a human craftsman [Exodus 25:31-40].
Balaam offered three sets of sacrifices on seven altars each with two animals sacrificed on each altar for three sets of fourteen sacrifices totaling forty-two animal sacrifices prior to God providing the prophetic oracle [Numbers 23:2, 14, 29].
The deliberately structured forty-two stages of the Israelites' from Sinai to the Plains of Moab - it was a journey marking their conflict with the will of God for Israel's future [Numbers 33:1-49].
The forty-two young men who mocked God's choice after the ascension of Elijah and the transfer of his authority to Elisha [2 Kings 2:23-24], as we just discussed.

Some New testaments authors picked up that theme:

St. Matthew's genealogy of Jesus is a deliberately structured list of forty-two names ending with Jesus' name and reveling that He is both man and God [Matthew 1:1-17].
In the Book of Revelation the number forty-two signifies the conflict of the Beast together with his offspring, "the seed of the serpent" [Genesis 3:15], that stand in opposition to Christ and His Church for a symbolic forty-two months [Revelation 11:2; 13:5].

This use of the 42 therefore is not a coincident, but a deliberate choice which would not have been lost on the original audience, and was always recognised as significant in the Jewish tradition.

This, I think, suggests that this story is rather more than merely an account of events.


Should Elisha have acted that way, if it really happened? Probably not, and we can only speculate if he felt guilty... To the writer of the passage this question did not even arise, because he was on a completely different wavelength, writing for an entirely different reason.

[glitch]

Yes. but they also don't necessarily teach that good action is the way, they suggest it, but infact with multiple reincarnation attempts for each one simply gets infinite chances to get it right, and Christianity says you get one, so Christians are supposed to act good.

So essentially these people believe themselves to be more virtuous than the polytheists and the Jews.

No. I didn't say that, and you're stretching my words. Thanks again for acting like a muslim. Okay, show me where it says Christians are better than anyone. Sorry, ya can't
Game over. I can clearly point out however in the koran where it says Muslims are the best.

One of the prophets of old Testament is said to have cursed children to be devoured by bears as they teased him.That spirit of getting killed those that oppose you even in verbal form seems to be something in line with what Mohammed did.

Nope. You can't. i know the exact passage, and jerks like yourself have been mistranslating it for years. it's a gang of 24 thugs. Adults. Not children. They are on the damascus road, and they are planning to kill him. He doesn't do a thing. A Bear rips them apart and they aren't children. funny now how you have entered this conversation only to bash the christians, again. thanks. noticed you haven't bashed any jews but that basically because you're an athiest coward who basically thinks islam and christianity are the same and you're afraid of the jews beacause you just don't read enough to remotely hold an intelligent conversation.

Thanks for playing though. Coward.

I have seen in Hollywood films in which wives speak of their pious or virtuous or good husbands as God fearing.In Islam and Christianity due to the concepts of One life with one everlasting Heaven and one everlasting Hell,the period for which this God fearing enforced goodness should exist is for all of life and by I am not stretching anything by any stretch of imagination.

And word 'naar' in Hebrew is used for both lads and 24 year old young men according to one site on the net.Now if Abraham had to wait until some 100+ years to conceive in those time periods i.e if he were to become sexually mature at 100+ years of age(living for 100s of years by many of the mythical characters of the O.T is seen as a sign of piety),24 years does seem to be pretty young age if one goes by those texts,even if they are assumed to be 24.

Now And those people have not planned to kill him.Show me where it says so,instead of making up excuses and stories.They just make a mockery of him calling him 'bald head'.That by no means is sufficient enough to cause them to be devoured by bears.So in effect silencing of critics is done even if it is to be done with cursing your opponents with death with the power of God.Same is the case in Islam.

1. They are on the damascus road a notorious spot where people are robbed and killed constantly,
2. There are a half a dozen of these _men._
3. you have no evidence that He calls upon their death at all, it simply happens. and with good reason, they are telling him to ascend into heaven and it is a threat and derision, and you know what, none of it matters to you because you see Allah and Jehovah as the same when we've shown a hundred times they aren't.

Now i'm done with you as i am with most coward athiests who want to paint Yahweh as this evil coward who kills children indescriminately, they are thugs who derided a man of important power, took the risk of doing so, having supposedly known what happened over and over to people who tried to kill moses, over and over and over.

they are trash of the first order and the bible shows that, and their punishment is just... besides they knew enpugh of the prophet before him to deride him and doubt him and i guess these thugs got a taste for what they already knew would happen. Fitting. and just.

[glitch]

I have seen in Hollywood films in which wives speak of their pious or virtuous or good husbands as God fearing.In Islam and Christianity due to the concepts of One life with one everlasting Heaven and one everlasting Hell,the period for which this God fearing enforced goodness should exist is for all of life and by I am not stretching anything by any stretch of imagination.

1. your point? in hollywood films, wives talk of husbands as god fearing? did you have a secondary sentence to that? So the hell what? that it happened in a movie and you can't even explain the rest? that they think, in a movie something, say it, but then like a muslim you can't even make a point? sorry, fragments don't cut it NoExplanation.

I notice you jump straight from chirstianity and islam and say nothing about judiasm, as usual, but that doesn't stop you , as usual from quoting from the old testement and bashing the hell out of Christians--and then oh so conveniently saying nothing about Jews.

See, because jews get a pass because its so much easier to bash christians...

And yes, the behavior is supposed to last all of life, and as far as i can tell, it does in Christians.

Its islam that has the open ended commands and jusgements on people of the book and that's why you see Muslims killing constantly. You really don't see Chritians stoning adulterers.... and funny, you don't see jews doing it.

And you did stretch my words. you absolutely jumped from 0 to 60 in five seconds, saying you saw it in a movie. Thanks for playing again Coward, you make me laugh every time.... any more words to shove into my mouth i didn't say, but you saw in a movie and then can't voice--clearly or otherwise?

[Nosuperstition]

And it is believable to believe that 2 bears can devour many 24 year adults to satiate their dinosaur appetites.

And that is not the only instance when children get victimised in the O.T when God of Abraham is offended/when his people/prophets are offended.

[manfred]

And it is believable to believe that 2 bears can devour many 24 year adults to satiate their dinosaur appetites.

Half of 42 is 21 not 24. And no, that is not believable.

a brown bear may eat as much as 90 pounds (40 kilograms) of food each day, and it may weigh twice as much before hibernation as it will in spring

http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/a ... rown-bear/

This is about the much larger Grizzly bears, and not the Syrian bears who are much smaller and accordingly eat less.

And that is not the only instance when children get victimised in the O.T when God of Abraham is offended/when his people/prophets are offended.

Nothing is sinking in. I spent some time explaining the passage to you, in detail. Obviously you have no interest in learning anything about the text, only to use it to make stupid claims.

No children were victimised and the story's exact purpose has been shown to you, so kindly do not repeat the same old junk over and over, as otherwise it appears you are merely trolling and not discussing.

[glitch]

And it is believable to believe that 2 bears can devour many 24 year adults to satiate their dinosaur appetites.

And that is not the only instance when children get victimised in the O.T when God of Abraham is offended/when his people/prophets are offended.

if its not the only instance then show it. Show them. Don't act like a typical muslim and say there's lots of examples and provide none. Put your money wher your mouth is you coward? if the God of the OT is so mean to children, then show it.

Secondly, the bears showed up and guess what it doesn't say they killed them all. Does it?

[Hombre]

I have seen in Hollywood films in which wives speak of their pious or virtuous or good husbands as God fearing.In Islam and Christianity due to the concepts of One life with one everlasting Heaven and one everlasting Hell,the period for which this God fearing enforced goodness should exist is for all of life and by I am not stretching anything by any stretch of imagination.

And word 'naar' in Hebrew is used for both lads and 24 year old young men according to one site on the net.Now if Abraham had to wait until some 100+ years to conceive in those time periods i.e if he were to become sexually mature at 100+ years of age(living for 100s of years by many of the mythical characters of the O.T is seen as a sign of piety),24 years does seem to be pretty young age if one goes by those texts,even if they are assumed to be 24.

Now And those people have not planned to kill him.Show me where it says so,instead of making up excuses and stories.They just make a mockery of him calling him 'bald head'.That by no means is sufficient enough to cause them to be devoured by bears.So in effect silencing of critics is done even if it is to be done with cursing your opponents with death with the power of God.Same is the case in Islam.

You missed the ending of that movie. Those bears which you mention, ended up devouring hamburgers in that McDonald fastfood on Hollywood Blvd. Then, to show they treat all religion equally, they went to Humus/Fallafel & Sheesh kabab places and devourd them too.

As for the word "na'ar" נער usually referred to teen age boys - not necessarily to 24 year old man