We are doomed, unless...

Prove Islam is from God, why it is the 'One True Religion'.
Nosuperstition
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Re: We are doomed, unless...

Post by Nosuperstition »

idesigner1 wrote:Christians were always better at dealing with this virus. Christians opposed and fought Islam primarily on moral grounds.
idesigner1 wrote: Hindus took a very narrow view of fighting Muslims purely on territorial ground. They never developed strategy to defeat Islam on ideological ground.

Well Hindus of some areas in pre-Islamic India might not have attached importance to marital faithfulness, but then Al-Beruni himself said that the acts of Mahmood of Ghaznavi caused the Hindus of those period to have an inveterate hatred of all things Muslim.

Mahmood's acts include murder,pillage and wanton destruction of heritage sites such as temples.Without judging someone on moral issues such as mass murder,rape,robbery or pillaging and destruction of wonderful sites of heritage,people cannot hate someone or some group randomly.

Marco Polo said that criminal justice system in India was quite tough and those that crossed the line were punished severely though sexual indulgence was strangely not considered a crime.May be other crimes were judged on a high moral pedestal even before Islam came to India and thus were severely penalised.

So might be some Hindus did not judge muslims on moral scales of marital fidelity but they did indeed judge them on some other scales.Without judging muslims on their own moral scales,it is might not have been possible for the Vijayanagar soldiers to feel like torching muslim hamlets when they overran the lands of Indo-Persian Bahmani Empire.

They too might not have taken kindly to acts of murder,rape,pillage and destruction.Of course they did this all when they were pushed to the extreme and were on the verge of loosing political power all over the sub-continent.Perhaps they became that desperate.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

sum
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Re: We are doomed, unless...

Post by sum »

It is all a battle for the mind. It is also a case of who can get in first and for as long as possible. I consider it absolutely imperative that some way must be found and forced upon children in their early formative years. I will say again that all children in Britain must be taught the fundamentals of Christianity to impress upon all children what the British culture and legal system is based upon. This might sow seeds of doubt into the minds of muslim children and so weaken the Islamic indoctrination with the consequent hatred and terrorism.

sum

Nosuperstition
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Re: We are doomed, unless...

Post by Nosuperstition »

idesigner1 wrote: Hindus took a very narrow view of fighting Muslims purely on territorial ground. They never developed strategy to defeat Islam on ideological ground.Here their all inclusiveness, all religions are good philosophy did them in.
According to Hindu philosophy elaborated in the old old forum,there is no concept of Satan in Hinduism and there is no such thing as absolute evil in Hinduism.Individuals become evil only due to uncomfortable/evil circumstances.Perhaps that is the reason why they did not begin the scorch earth policy on muslims until they were pushed to the extreme South.Another reason could be that they were not united and were rendered physically weak due to veggie diet mimicking.

When it came to shove,they fought very hard but by then it was too late.
idesigner1 wrote:Anyway Chinese commies and vast majority of Chinese and supporters of new chinese world empire have lost any moral compass of right and wrong.To them everything is ok as long as they have material means and large territory to rule.They have no strategy to fight Islam on moral or philosophical ground.
If it comes to materialism,Hindu culture doesn't lag behind.For example there is a Sanskrit saying 'Dhanamidam moolam jagat'(Money is the basis of this world).Do not know the source of this popular saying as to whether it is found in secular literature or religious literature.But then this is also the basis of capitalism.For capitalist economy to take off on a giant scale and develop the society at a faster pace,it is said that land reforms are a preclude.That is the reason why U.S forced Japan to implement land reforms and why other East Asian and South East Asian economies implemented the same.

But then land reforms did not take off on such a scale in India because of the greed of the landlords.Hence Hindus appear to be relatively spiritual.Thats it. :wink:
Last edited by Nosuperstition on Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

Nosuperstition
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Re: We are doomed, unless...

Post by Nosuperstition »

Land reforms are said to increase per capita purchasing power which in turn drives voracious capitalist consumption.

Chinese Commies implemented land reforms.In addition to China having much more fertile land than India,this is also the reason along with family planning as to why we see such a huge middle class in China.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

sum
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Re: We are doomed, unless...

Post by sum »

So far, there have been no suggestions as to how to combat Islamic childhood programming. If it is not prevented then we really are doomed. This Islamic indoctrination is the equivalent of the muslim grooming of young girls for sex. The programming of the mind of muslim children makes a very significant number ripe for the next stage - active violence. It is an endless conveyer belt and production line of slaves of Allah.

Is there now a new phase of Islamic programming whereby mosques are now claiming that they are not preaching violence? They simply consolidate the true Islamic teaching, which is the grooming stage, and leave the next phase to the clerics on the internet. By doing this the mosques can keep their noses "clean" and counter claims that they are responsible for the jihadists. They now blame the internet which is probably partly true.

One has to give credit to the ingenuity of the muslims.

sum

frankie
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Re: We are doomed, unless...

Post by frankie »

sum:
I am convinced that Islam will eventually win unless the non-muslim world adopts a whole new approach to combatting the Islamic doctrine.
This is already happening sum, especially throughout the Muslim world, ministering the Gospel, refuting the Quran, and robust debate from the Christian perspective, can be widely found on the internet. Many Muslims are rejecting their faith in favour of Christianity, I know of 500 Iranian Muslim converts from the Manchester area alone.

There is a lot of activity the media does not hear about, nor wish to broadcast, going on throughout Britain and the world at large, which is bringing Muslims out of Islam, by exposing the truth about their faith, comparing the Gospel message to the Quran, which is said to come from the same divine source, which immediately highlights the falseness of this claim.

http://www.abnsat.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is just one, of numerous internet sites telling the truth about Islam, which in turn, is "rocking" the Muslim world out of its tissue of lies and deceit they call Islam.

A sea of change cannot happen over night, but the tide of change is rapidly coming in.

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Fernando
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Re: We are doomed, unless...

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sum wrote:I will say again that all children in Britain must be taught the fundamentals of Christianity to impress upon all children what the British culture and legal system is based upon.
I'm no historian but I think you should add Greek, Roman, Celtic and Nordic/Germanic traditions. All of which, along with Christianity, were steps along the road to the Enlightenment. Which is the real basis of modern British thought - if not, alas, its Establishment's thought.
Islam is a dangerous diversion from that road, leading to an all-consuming quagmire.
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

sum
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Re: We are doomed, unless...

Post by sum »

Hello frankie

I am gladdened to read your post but I still remain pessimistic. It is a race between the increase in Islamic influence and the loss of muslims from Islam. If the hardliners win the race then sharia will be installed and criticism of Islam will bring death to the critics. I can only foresee bloodshed and violence ahead irrespective of whether it is apostates v muslims, or, non-muslims v muslims.

One factor in favour of my view is the appalling attitude of present day politicians who bend over backwards to grant muslims` demands, appease and explain away muslim atrocities as being not in accord with the Islamic faith. This gives the muslims enormous encouragement to continue as they are.

Has anyone noticed any adverse comments made by senior politicians about the unacceptable aspects of Islam and which are not compatible with British society?

I have noticed that the comments on various websites regarding politicians are becoming more hostile and aggressive with demands for impeachment and expressing the certainty of civil war. There is increasing unrest regarding muslims and Islam.

Do the politicians take note of this?

sum

sum
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Re: We are doomed, unless...

Post by sum »

Hello Fernando

Your quote -
I'm no historian but I think you should add Greek, Roman, Celtic and Nordic/Germanic traditions.

I think that this would be a tad too much for the youngest schoolchildren to whom I was referring. Your quote might well apply to the older children as a follow-on to the teaching of Christian values in society and which formed the core of the laws and values of British society.

sum

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Fernando
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Re: We are doomed, unless...

Post by Fernando »

sum wrote:Hello Fernando

Your quote -
I'm no historian but I think you should add Greek, Roman, Celtic and Nordic/Germanic traditions.

I think that this would be a tad too much for the youngest schoolchildren to whom I was referring. Your quote might well apply to the older children as a follow-on to the teaching of Christian values in society and which formed the core of the laws and values of British society.

sum
Maybe, but we did Greek and Norse myths when I was at a Church of England Junior school and I was given a book of African myths as a prize.
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

Nosuperstition
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Re: We are doomed, unless...

Post by Nosuperstition »

Fernando wrote:
sum wrote:I will say again that all children in Britain must be taught the fundamentals of Christianity to impress upon all children what the British culture and legal system is based upon.
I'm no historian but I think you should add Greek, Roman, Celtic and Nordic/Germanic traditions. All of which, along with Christianity, were steps along the road to the Enlightenment. Which is the real basis of modern British thought - if not, alas, its Establishment's thought.
Islam is a dangerous diversion from that road, leading to an all-consuming quagmire.
http://www.crystalinks.com/romelaw.html

All the medieval and modern Western laws had the Roman law as the inspiration.That is the reason why one oriental member even said that Christianity is nothing but Roman Imperialism masqerading/ trying to sell off/pass off in the garb of spiritual ideology.One can atleast say that Christian law was significantly influenced by pagan Roman jurisprudence. :wink:
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

Nosuperstition
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Re: We are doomed, unless...

Post by Nosuperstition »

idesigner1 wrote:Christians took Islam head on on a moral scale,Hindus only on territorial scale
Perhaps the words of the below forummer prompted you to say thus.
manfred wrote:Well, personally prefer to eat lizards that I have caught over stolen things..
http://forum09.faithfreedom.org//viewto ... en#p204443" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In Hinduism there are no hard and fast rules except caste system according to Yohan.Hence that polytheist religion is immoral/they lack morality according to him.But then even in monotheist Islam what is right and wrong depends on the situation as is the case with polytheist Hinduism.

And it is true that god Krishna is a thief of butter and clothes in his childhood and his adolescence.So might be theft is to be tolerated when you are a kid but not when you are an adult.But then excessive indulgence in religion supposedly stunts the growth of an individual and he supposedly remains in a state of childhood for the rest of his life according to psychology.So those whose brains are permanently damaged due to excessive religion can steal according to Hinduism. :wink:

But then tantrums such as your religion has no morals might have prompted medieval Hindus to resort to extreme punishments.For example according to an Islamic traveller,Hindus in Kerala meted out capital punishment to anyone who stole even a single nut from the farm.In the Hindu Vijayanagar Empire which was contemporary of Islamic Bahmanis,Chitra Vadha/Citra Vadha or torturous capital punishment was inflicted upon anyone found to be guilty of stealing anything invaluable.Perhaps Hindus wanted to outdo muslims who only amputated one when he /she is found guilty of theft and thus prove themselves to be much more moral.

Perhaps Hinduism is similiar to Roman polytheism whose punishments were not words of Gods and hence not eternal.Rome at one time considered slaves and offspring as sole property of the master /head of the household and hence can be disposed off at will.At other times,they were granted the right to live irrespective of the masters' or head of the household's wishes with the right to complain in the courts of law if mistreated.
Last edited by Nosuperstition on Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:39 pm, edited 5 times in total.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

Nosuperstition
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Re: We are doomed, unless...

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Romans at times executed criminals and war captives by throwing them to wild beasts in the arena.The Aztecs also sacrificed war captives to their gods,a convenient way of human sacrifice to get rid off your enemies and surplus population.Even the Christian emperor Constantine threw the barbarians who attacked his empire to the wild beasts in the arena.So where is the morality of which you speak of ?
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

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manfred
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Re: We are doomed, unless...

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Nosuperstition wrote:.Even the Christian emperor Constantine threw the barbarians who attacked his empire to the wild beasts in the arena.So where is the morality of which you speak of ?
Constantine only became a Christian late in life, he was baptised on his death bead. However, a gave the Roman empire freedom of religion in the edict of Milan, putting an end to the persecution of Christians. He also supported Christians and helped to set up an established church.

Why he converted to Christianity later is subject to much debate, but it is highly likely that is was a considered POLITICAL step. He saw Christianity as a useful tool in government.

In other ways he was, well, much like any other Roman emperor, not a bunch of people you would generally see as examples of virtue...
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Nosuperstition
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Re: We are doomed, unless...

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manfred wrote:However, a gave the Roman empire freedom of religion in the edict of Milan, putting an end to the persecution of Christians. He also supported Christians and helped to set up an established church.
Pagan Romans gave freedom of religion to every sect of their Empire sans Christianity.

Early Christianity is nothing but a heretical sect of Judaism.Jews as people favoured Persia more than Rome.Similiarly early Christians are said to have helped the Persians as a fifth column.Now one must remember that in those days wars meant existential threat and loosing large swathes of territory and life sustaining money to your opponent.No wonder Christians were that persecuted.

Now I have no doubt at all that if the U.S.A were to face existential threat today or loosing large swathes of territory,it would outlaw Islam just as it outlawed Communism by means of Mc Carthyism.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

Nosuperstition
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Re: We are doomed, unless...

Post by Nosuperstition »

Police surveyance of Christianity was not because it was a new religion. Rome was tolerant of religious differences.
Romans saw Christians as a fifth column, especially of the Persians who menaced the east. They would foment disloyalty at the moment of extreme danger from external enemies.
http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/06 ... cution.php

What is it that Christianity had in common with the Persian religion?Belief in One God and One Satan and everlasting enmity between the two.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

Nosuperstition
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Re: We are doomed, unless...

Post by Nosuperstition »

Simon the Zealot as known as Simon the Canaanite

A revolutionary against the Roman Empire who instead helped to lead the revolution to change the world. Believed to have preached the Gospel in Cyrene, other areas of North Africa including Egypt. Later traveling as far as Britian before returning to preach in Persia
.
http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/T ... ostles.htm

Would the Romans trust the religion, one of whose apostles is an enemy against the Empire according the above site that is very much Christian?
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

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manfred
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Re: We are doomed, unless...

Post by manfred »

Where do you get all this half-baked stuff from?
1) The bible knows two disciples of Jesus called "Simon", one is also called "Peter" (="the rock") and the other Simon the Zealot. He is not "the Canaanite" that is a simple mistranslation: the Hebrew word "qana" is a zealot, not a person from Canaan, which but the time of Jesus was known as Judea anyway.
2)He was not called the Zealot because he was some sort of terrorist, fighting the Romans, at all. He got his name because he left his family, all his property, and his bride to be to follow Jesus. "Zealot" did not have the same connotations back then as it has now.
3) There is relative little else about him in the biblical texts, but much LATER traditions have it that he may have been a brother or half-brother of Jesus, and that he preached the gospel in what today is Morocco. This is not well sourced, so should probably treated with suspicion.

As to the Romans trusting the Christians, well they did not, as they disliked ALL "cults" as they saw Christianity. To a Roman, religion was a duty to the existing government, an act of patriotism. It was not about religious experience or moral development, but about allegiance. In that way the Roman view of religion was similar to Islam. Above all, it asked for compliance. Believe what you want but burn some incense before the statue of the emperor...

This only changed, as previously pointed out, with Constantine and the edict of Milan.

Before then, Christians were often used as scapegoats, and persecution was common, mostly because Christians did not comply with worshipping the emperor, something the Jews also paid for, even more severely. Not complying with the state religion was seen as a sort of treason.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

idesigner1
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Re: We are doomed, unless...

Post by idesigner1 »

Once Constantin became Christian, Romans turned 180 degree.
In one or two generation idol worshipping Romans were persecuted,killed,exiled.
In Rome no Roman worshipping old gods can be found in50 years. Temples were destroyed,idols wre used to pave roads.

All one God people are same.Christians became mellow after Second World War,thanks to secular ideology.

Nosuperstition
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Re: We are doomed, unless...

Post by Nosuperstition »

To a Roman, religion was a duty to the existing government, an act of patriotism. It was not about religious experience or moral development, but about allegiance. In that way the Roman view of religion was similar to Islam. Above all, it asked for compliance. Believe what you want but burn some incense before the statue of the emperor...

This only changed, as previously pointed out, with Constantine and the edict of Milan.
What is a religious experience and what exactly do you consider something to be a moral development?Is scorning at somebody that he is worthy of everlasting hell just because he did not belong to your cult a healthy moral development?Is proclaiming that yours is a morally superior culture,(morally so superior that the rest are sh!t worth everlasting contempt) and then proceeding on to subjugate or eliminate others a healthy moral development?Regarding religion being used for patriotism,it continues even today in the form of utilising services of chaplains etc during wars.

And all so called religious experiences are nothing but releases of serotonin and dopamine that trigger happiness.Other experiences are nothing but mental delusions and so called answered prayers that cannot stand the test of many blind repeats.
palli or halli in Dravidian languages means a village just like gaav in Aryan languages means a village.palli or halli in Aryan Mauryan Imperial era around 200 B.C designates a tribal hamlet.So many of those in South India are indeed descendants of tribals and are still keeping up that heritage.

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