Mughal the Infidel.
Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:52 pm
The following is a post by Mughal when he was an Infidel.
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Mughal
Advanced Member
Full Members
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721 posts
Posted 08 March 2004 - 06:04 AM
Dear friends,
Thank you very much for your very kind and encouraging responses.
Here is how I think the Islamic sources developed or evolved with time. To begin with it is important to realise that Muslims claim that Islam is a comprehensive way of life for everyone and for all times and places from Allah the almighty. The implication of such a claim is that it has to have answers to all questions as regarding daily life of anyone and everyone, anywhere and everywhere for all times. The question is, does it or did it ever? My answer is no, it was never the case.
In fact such a claim is outrageous come to think of it, because the proof of the pudding is in the eating. If Allah was the true God and that he had guided Muslims with such comprehensive guidance as Muslims claim, they ought to be leaders of the world in all good things in life, had they followed that guidance, would they not? We non-Muslims would have been left behind by Muslims in progress and prosperity by miles mystified by their success comparing to our human ignorance and failure being unaware of such a good teaching. That would have been the case because Muslims would have been educated by their Allah right from the day they were born with knowledge that was perfect from the perfect one himself.
Mind you Muslims teach their children Islam as soon as they are born. I am not joking, ask any Muslim what happens to their newborns? You will be told that Allah is introduced to the newborn straightaway by means of Adhaan=the Muslim call for prayer in his/her ears. Then there is circumcision practice and the like and so indoctrination begins. When a child is able to talk, the child is taught basic religion by parents and as one grows one is sent to local masjid=mosque and later to local madraasa= religious school or even daral aloom=religious university. Thus a Muslim ends up a walking robot having no mind of its own.
Despite all this carry on, what do you witness the Muslim situation is in the world? Is it that Muslims are leading the world in progress or are they the obstacle in the way of progress and prosperity? The question is, what do Muslims learn and teach in their religious institutions? They learn the books I have mentioned above eg The Quran, The Hadith, The Fiqh, The Quranic tafaseer=interpretations, The Sirah, the Sharah=interpretation of Hadith, The Tareekh=history, kitaab al aqaaid=the book that define Islamic creed. Together these subjects are known as dars al nizaami or the Islamic madrassa curriculum. Word madraasa simply means a place wherein people are taught lessons eg a school. By the way, the fundamental Islamic literature is available online if anyone wishes to be as successful as Muslims are.
Islamic literature is by no means a state secret any more. Perhaps it was when Mullahs/Ulema=Muslim scholars of Islamic religious teachings were fully in-charge of things. Remember, Muslims only have the Quranic text that was authorized by the then Islamic establishment that was headed by the 3rd Caliph of Islam after Muhammad. His name was Uthman. I will be getting into all this nitty gritty in time but just now I wish to inform the reader in general as regard how Islam came to be as we see it and what Muslims claim Islam to be. The idea is to see if Muslim claims make any sense in the light of their religious texts.
Here I have raised the question as regard comprehensiveness of Islam as a God appointed perfect way of life. I am trying to help people become aware of the fact that such a claim by Muslims is absurd because it makes no sense whatsoever. Nonetheless to promote their this make belief, Muslims have been doing all they can and have been successful in gaining many converts even in Europe and America. They are very proud to present these people as mark of their success and as proof of truth of their faith, Islam. I on the other hand am trying to understand, what went wrong that these people converted to Islam the while people like myself have left Islam after realizing the truth about Islam. To answer the question I have raised above, one has to look at how Islam evolved. The idea is that if Islam was truly revealed by a perfect God, it ought to be perfect right from the day one needing no further improvements. Because Islam has been improved upon on daily basis right from the days of the prophet, gives evidence to the suspicion that Islam was never revealed by any God whatsoever but was created by people themselves. This is not just my claim, one has to examine the Islamic claims and the related source materials.
According to my understanding of the Islamic source material, it does not have anything comprehensive in it never mind everything for all and forever. As an ideology, Islam has been improved upon. As a political, social, cultural or economic system, structure or practice Islam has been improved upon, so when was Islam perfect, complete or comprehensive for all times to come? The very basic source of Islam is the Quran. The question is, is the Quran complete, perfect and comprehensive about anything even today? Please examine the Quran and see what you yourself find. The Quranic text we have today, is the one that was authorized by the then 3rd Caliph of Islam, who burned all the existing copies of the Quran that differed with his version of the Quranic text. Does that sound anything like perfect revelation preserved perfecly? By the way, this is not my claim but what is clearly stated in Islamic sources that were prepared by Muslims themselves. I am saying this just in case you think, well, enemies of Islam have to say such bad things about Islam, do they not? It took Allah 23 years to complete the revelation of the Quran to the prophet yet it had to be sorted out by Uthman, can you imagine the incompetence of Allah the almighty and competence of Uthman an ordinary human being?
The 2nd point is that if The Quran was sufficient as divine guidance, why there was developed the literature called Hadith? Hadith is another most fundamental source of Islamic faith 2nd only to the Quran. The Hadith collections were written down more than a couple of centuries after the death of the prophet. Not only that but people who collected these reports rejected many folds more than they accepted. So much for the claim that islam is a perfect religion. So one can see that Islamic sources have a history and if they have a history that only shows their gradual development with time and not a sudden revelation by some God.
The question is, why these fundamental sources were developed this way if they were allegedly revealed word of God? This question becomes yet more forceful if looked at in context of another Muslim claim, which is that Allah created Adam and Eve and to Adam he revealed the very first message for guidance and that since then Allah never left people without his perfect guidance etc etc etc … Imagine a people being taught perfect knowledge right from the day one and yet they do not learn, progress or prosper even as good as their enemies? Does that make any sense to anyone? Are we human really like that, that we never learn no matter how hard someone tries to teach us the good thing about life? Are we so uninterested in knowing about the world in which we are born and die? Do we never raise questions as to where did all this come from? Are such religious claims then true?
The fact is, we spend billions of dollars on education, research and exploration and that we are very curious about our universe. So the religious claims about humans as totally ignorant and evil are not true, for we ourselves and our actions contradict them. We are always busy trying to find better and better ways of doing better and better things to minimize pain and suffering in our world and to get rid of death and destruction that animals inflict on each other, including humans as is obvious if we realize things about our food chain and warfare between ourselves. Had we been guided through perfect guidance, it would not have taken us so many generation to be where we are today in respect of our development and progress. The time we took to be where we are today shows that we never had any message from any God to guide us rather we have been learning from our own mistakes and taking corrective measures if we realized that we were doing something wrong or in a wrong sort of way.
So in the light of facts such as I have mentioned here, Islam being the comprehensive way of life from Allah is a false claim by Muslims. Islam was not revealed by any God but was developed by people themselves as the evidence clearly suggests if we study Islamic sources which show gradual development of this religion by humans themselves.
In time of Muhammad, he being the chief himself and present amongst people, decided all matters as he went along and thought fit attributing them to his imaginary Allah as a messenger of this Allah. There was therefore no need for any other source than the alleged divine revelation to himself ie The Quran. However, after the death of Muhammad, when such problem arose which were not addressed by Muhammad as the Quran due to later developments, need arose for people to have another source besides the Quran to answer their questions to maintain the false claim that Islam is a comprehensive way of life and so has all the answers to all questions for everyone, therefore the idea of Hadith was developed. Due to yet further developments when even Hadith failed to address problems that arose due to changing nature of our world and the circumstances of Muslims therein, there arose need for yet another sources ie Fiqh.
At each step because measures were taken by ordinary people after the prophet, they decided things differently and that resulted into permanent divides between Muslims in form of sectarianism that continues to date. Thus one can see how Islam turned out to be what we see today ie a gradually developed religion that was never comprehensive in any way even during the time of the prophet himself. In fact, let us look at our own setup as regard education. When it comes to educating our kids in our schools, we try to teach them all they need to know (provided we know it ourselves) but let them learn at their own pace. However, Islam never had comprehensive teaching nor people ever learned it at once. This is why Muslims always fought over what Islam exactly is and the fighting continues, such comprehensive is Islam as a religion. Do I need say more?
Please note that my idea is to help people know what Islamic sources are, where to find them online and how to look at them to know what Islam really is and what Muslims really are. Once we are armed with such knowledge, we are then in a better position to examine Islam ourselves as well as help our other (Muslim and non-Muslim) friends to know Islam for what it really is and so that they can then make up their own minds about it properly. Moreover it would help us discuss Islam methodically.
Islamic sources are of such importance to Muslims that many of those who claim to believe in them would not hesitate killing/dying for them. Islam is a very dangerous cult or a peaceful religion, would only become obvious once we look at it in a few different ways. The most important is the Muslim belief that the Quran is the perfect divine revelation that has been preserved perfectly and we have the task of proving otherwise despite the fact that Muslims have failed to prove what they claim about the Quran. Thank you once again for your kindness and I hope to say more on the topic later.
Regards and
I hope that Mughal has repented and Allah is all compassionate and merciful after all.
sum
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Mughal
Advanced Member
Full Members
PipPipPip
721 posts
Posted 08 March 2004 - 06:04 AM
Dear friends,
Thank you very much for your very kind and encouraging responses.
Here is how I think the Islamic sources developed or evolved with time. To begin with it is important to realise that Muslims claim that Islam is a comprehensive way of life for everyone and for all times and places from Allah the almighty. The implication of such a claim is that it has to have answers to all questions as regarding daily life of anyone and everyone, anywhere and everywhere for all times. The question is, does it or did it ever? My answer is no, it was never the case.
In fact such a claim is outrageous come to think of it, because the proof of the pudding is in the eating. If Allah was the true God and that he had guided Muslims with such comprehensive guidance as Muslims claim, they ought to be leaders of the world in all good things in life, had they followed that guidance, would they not? We non-Muslims would have been left behind by Muslims in progress and prosperity by miles mystified by their success comparing to our human ignorance and failure being unaware of such a good teaching. That would have been the case because Muslims would have been educated by their Allah right from the day they were born with knowledge that was perfect from the perfect one himself.
Mind you Muslims teach their children Islam as soon as they are born. I am not joking, ask any Muslim what happens to their newborns? You will be told that Allah is introduced to the newborn straightaway by means of Adhaan=the Muslim call for prayer in his/her ears. Then there is circumcision practice and the like and so indoctrination begins. When a child is able to talk, the child is taught basic religion by parents and as one grows one is sent to local masjid=mosque and later to local madraasa= religious school or even daral aloom=religious university. Thus a Muslim ends up a walking robot having no mind of its own.
Despite all this carry on, what do you witness the Muslim situation is in the world? Is it that Muslims are leading the world in progress or are they the obstacle in the way of progress and prosperity? The question is, what do Muslims learn and teach in their religious institutions? They learn the books I have mentioned above eg The Quran, The Hadith, The Fiqh, The Quranic tafaseer=interpretations, The Sirah, the Sharah=interpretation of Hadith, The Tareekh=history, kitaab al aqaaid=the book that define Islamic creed. Together these subjects are known as dars al nizaami or the Islamic madrassa curriculum. Word madraasa simply means a place wherein people are taught lessons eg a school. By the way, the fundamental Islamic literature is available online if anyone wishes to be as successful as Muslims are.
Islamic literature is by no means a state secret any more. Perhaps it was when Mullahs/Ulema=Muslim scholars of Islamic religious teachings were fully in-charge of things. Remember, Muslims only have the Quranic text that was authorized by the then Islamic establishment that was headed by the 3rd Caliph of Islam after Muhammad. His name was Uthman. I will be getting into all this nitty gritty in time but just now I wish to inform the reader in general as regard how Islam came to be as we see it and what Muslims claim Islam to be. The idea is to see if Muslim claims make any sense in the light of their religious texts.
Here I have raised the question as regard comprehensiveness of Islam as a God appointed perfect way of life. I am trying to help people become aware of the fact that such a claim by Muslims is absurd because it makes no sense whatsoever. Nonetheless to promote their this make belief, Muslims have been doing all they can and have been successful in gaining many converts even in Europe and America. They are very proud to present these people as mark of their success and as proof of truth of their faith, Islam. I on the other hand am trying to understand, what went wrong that these people converted to Islam the while people like myself have left Islam after realizing the truth about Islam. To answer the question I have raised above, one has to look at how Islam evolved. The idea is that if Islam was truly revealed by a perfect God, it ought to be perfect right from the day one needing no further improvements. Because Islam has been improved upon on daily basis right from the days of the prophet, gives evidence to the suspicion that Islam was never revealed by any God whatsoever but was created by people themselves. This is not just my claim, one has to examine the Islamic claims and the related source materials.
According to my understanding of the Islamic source material, it does not have anything comprehensive in it never mind everything for all and forever. As an ideology, Islam has been improved upon. As a political, social, cultural or economic system, structure or practice Islam has been improved upon, so when was Islam perfect, complete or comprehensive for all times to come? The very basic source of Islam is the Quran. The question is, is the Quran complete, perfect and comprehensive about anything even today? Please examine the Quran and see what you yourself find. The Quranic text we have today, is the one that was authorized by the then 3rd Caliph of Islam, who burned all the existing copies of the Quran that differed with his version of the Quranic text. Does that sound anything like perfect revelation preserved perfecly? By the way, this is not my claim but what is clearly stated in Islamic sources that were prepared by Muslims themselves. I am saying this just in case you think, well, enemies of Islam have to say such bad things about Islam, do they not? It took Allah 23 years to complete the revelation of the Quran to the prophet yet it had to be sorted out by Uthman, can you imagine the incompetence of Allah the almighty and competence of Uthman an ordinary human being?
The 2nd point is that if The Quran was sufficient as divine guidance, why there was developed the literature called Hadith? Hadith is another most fundamental source of Islamic faith 2nd only to the Quran. The Hadith collections were written down more than a couple of centuries after the death of the prophet. Not only that but people who collected these reports rejected many folds more than they accepted. So much for the claim that islam is a perfect religion. So one can see that Islamic sources have a history and if they have a history that only shows their gradual development with time and not a sudden revelation by some God.
The question is, why these fundamental sources were developed this way if they were allegedly revealed word of God? This question becomes yet more forceful if looked at in context of another Muslim claim, which is that Allah created Adam and Eve and to Adam he revealed the very first message for guidance and that since then Allah never left people without his perfect guidance etc etc etc … Imagine a people being taught perfect knowledge right from the day one and yet they do not learn, progress or prosper even as good as their enemies? Does that make any sense to anyone? Are we human really like that, that we never learn no matter how hard someone tries to teach us the good thing about life? Are we so uninterested in knowing about the world in which we are born and die? Do we never raise questions as to where did all this come from? Are such religious claims then true?
The fact is, we spend billions of dollars on education, research and exploration and that we are very curious about our universe. So the religious claims about humans as totally ignorant and evil are not true, for we ourselves and our actions contradict them. We are always busy trying to find better and better ways of doing better and better things to minimize pain and suffering in our world and to get rid of death and destruction that animals inflict on each other, including humans as is obvious if we realize things about our food chain and warfare between ourselves. Had we been guided through perfect guidance, it would not have taken us so many generation to be where we are today in respect of our development and progress. The time we took to be where we are today shows that we never had any message from any God to guide us rather we have been learning from our own mistakes and taking corrective measures if we realized that we were doing something wrong or in a wrong sort of way.
So in the light of facts such as I have mentioned here, Islam being the comprehensive way of life from Allah is a false claim by Muslims. Islam was not revealed by any God but was developed by people themselves as the evidence clearly suggests if we study Islamic sources which show gradual development of this religion by humans themselves.
In time of Muhammad, he being the chief himself and present amongst people, decided all matters as he went along and thought fit attributing them to his imaginary Allah as a messenger of this Allah. There was therefore no need for any other source than the alleged divine revelation to himself ie The Quran. However, after the death of Muhammad, when such problem arose which were not addressed by Muhammad as the Quran due to later developments, need arose for people to have another source besides the Quran to answer their questions to maintain the false claim that Islam is a comprehensive way of life and so has all the answers to all questions for everyone, therefore the idea of Hadith was developed. Due to yet further developments when even Hadith failed to address problems that arose due to changing nature of our world and the circumstances of Muslims therein, there arose need for yet another sources ie Fiqh.
At each step because measures were taken by ordinary people after the prophet, they decided things differently and that resulted into permanent divides between Muslims in form of sectarianism that continues to date. Thus one can see how Islam turned out to be what we see today ie a gradually developed religion that was never comprehensive in any way even during the time of the prophet himself. In fact, let us look at our own setup as regard education. When it comes to educating our kids in our schools, we try to teach them all they need to know (provided we know it ourselves) but let them learn at their own pace. However, Islam never had comprehensive teaching nor people ever learned it at once. This is why Muslims always fought over what Islam exactly is and the fighting continues, such comprehensive is Islam as a religion. Do I need say more?
Please note that my idea is to help people know what Islamic sources are, where to find them online and how to look at them to know what Islam really is and what Muslims really are. Once we are armed with such knowledge, we are then in a better position to examine Islam ourselves as well as help our other (Muslim and non-Muslim) friends to know Islam for what it really is and so that they can then make up their own minds about it properly. Moreover it would help us discuss Islam methodically.
Islamic sources are of such importance to Muslims that many of those who claim to believe in them would not hesitate killing/dying for them. Islam is a very dangerous cult or a peaceful religion, would only become obvious once we look at it in a few different ways. The most important is the Muslim belief that the Quran is the perfect divine revelation that has been preserved perfectly and we have the task of proving otherwise despite the fact that Muslims have failed to prove what they claim about the Quran. Thank you once again for your kindness and I hope to say more on the topic later.
Regards and
I hope that Mughal has repented and Allah is all compassionate and merciful after all.
sum
