Mughal the Infidel.

Prove Islam is from God, why it is the 'One True Religion'.
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pr126
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by pr126 »

Hello Mughal, how are you?

I think you should really look at this thread. It is very informative about the unknown history of Islam.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18332" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Islam: an idea to kill and die for.
Mughal
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Mughal »

frankie wrote:Mughal

The Quran has errors contained within it which should not be the case if it were a book from a divine being, as no God worthy of the name would make such fundamental errors about the creation of his own making.

Here is one such error, proving the Quran originates from the minds of fallible men, and not as claimed, from an infallible being.

The sun does not “set” anywhere, but it would appear to do so in the eyes of a 7th century Arabian, who did not know any better, which is why this error found its way into the Quran.

Quran 18.86
Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness

Tafsir 18.86
Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs
Till, when he reached the setting place of the sun) where the sun sets, (he found it setting in a muddy spring) a blackened, muddy and stinking spring; it is also said that this means: a hot spring, (and found a people thereabout) these people were disbelievers: (We said: O Dhu'l-Qarnayn!) We inspired him (Either punish) either kill them until they accept to believe that there is no deity except Allah (or show them kindness) or you pardon them and let them be.

Sunan Abu Dawud : Dar-us-Salam reference / Hadith 4002
Narrated Abu Dharr:
I was sitting behind the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets ? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water (Hamiyah).Indexes
Dar-us-Salam reference
Dear frankie, I have explained in detail the right way for reading the quranic text for making proper sense of it. If you know the way to make proper sense of the quranic text then you can share it with me to see whether your way for understanding the text of the quran is proper or not. You see if you claim you can solve a problem then it is obvious you ought to know how to solve the problem. If you do not know the way but you claim you can solve the problems how can I accept your claim about it?

The quran is a stand alone book because it is the only book in deen of islam which claims to be revealed word of God. In fact it is the only book in this world today that makes such claims repeatedly in it. All other books are words of people talking about God including the holy bible. Is it a coincidence that no other book like the quran exists in this world in this sense? This is why you cannot use any other source of information against it to discredit it. All other sources of information are credible only if they do not oppose the quran and that includes the holy bible. The question is, how did I arrive at that conclusion? It is because I become aware of right way of understanding the quran properly. This is why anyone who claims anything about the quran be it right or wrong must explain the right way of understanding the quran properly otherwise one is talking just for talking sake as I see it.

People talk about deen of islam both who claim to be muslims as well as who claim to be nonmuslims but the question is, do they really know deen of islam as it ought to be known? No. Why not? Because they do not understand the quran as it ought to be understood and unless they understand the quran properly they cannot know deen of islam as it ought to be known. Moreover to know the quran properly one has to know the proper way of understanding the quran. If a person says I can build a bridge but has no idea how to do so then how can such a person be believed about his claim? To know the right way of understanding the quran properly is absolutely vital or anyone can say anything about the quran and therefore the quran could become a useless book.

regards and all the best.
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Mughal »

sum wrote:Hello Mughal

I read the beginning but soon gave up. What you presented was by a man who was indoctrinated in childhood into accepting Allah and his Koran. He did not have the opportunity to grow up free from religious indoctrination and then, as a mature adult, compare and contrast the various religions and their intermediaries to mankind.

The gist of what I read is simply that Allah created everything and made it all work. There is not shred of evidence for this. There is not a shred of evidence that Allah exists or that Muhammad was a genuine prophet. It is all based on supposition. The foundations of Islam are resting on shifting sands. Everything falls onto the shoulders of Muhammad - without him Islam would not exist.

Without Muhammad, the ideology of Islam would not have been created. When the character of Muhammad is examined from all the information available it is as obvious as can be that he wrote it, errors and all, first and foremost for his own selfish ends. Surely you can see this, Mughal?

It strikes me that this book is first and foremost a rejection of Christianity, Islam`s main rival.

sum
Dear sum, it is not only you but all atheists, agnostics and theists have this problems of bypassing the evidence or proof where after they look around and see no proof or evidence. How many times do have have to explain to you and others that the proof of existence of God is his creation and his revelation. That is it. The real question is, do you or others really know how to go about examining these proofs or evidences properly? I do not think so otherwise you people will not be as confused as you are. People claim to understand the universe but in actual fact they do not as they should. Likewise they claim to understand the revelation of God but in fact they do not even know how to do so properly. The day they do, they will no longer be as confused as they are.

Muhammad is not foundation of deen of islam, the quran is and it is a stand alone book. Learn how to examine it properly so that you could see the quran for what it really is. All messengers of God were missionaries who worked for the success of the mission given to them by God. I have explained in deatil what this mission was all about. So missionaries were not important on their own but mission was and it is and it will be till it is fully accomplished in form of establishment of deen of islam universally. Instead of talking in a confused manner learn the proper way to make proper sense of the quran.

regards and all the best.
Mughal
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Mughal »

pr126 wrote:Hello Mughal, how are you?

I think you should really look at this thread. It is very informative about the unknown history of Islam.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18332" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Hello peter, greetings and hope you are fine. Thanks for the link. It is not history of slam but of confused muslims and nonmuslims as to how they interacted with each other etc etc. As you are aware I do not accept the quran as a religious holy book for pooja or worship in the sense people imagine it to be. To me the quran is guidance from God for mankind to learn to live in this world properly for their own good in order to fulfil plan and purpose of God. Is it not surprising that the quran is called the quran ie the proclamation ie a public announcement of God for mankind? Is it not surprising that book repeatedly claims to be revealed word of God in which it is God talking about things rather than a human being talking and explaining things about God and things?

Is it not surprising that in it the way of life advised by God for humanity is called deen of islam ie a way of life which if understood properly and followed faithfully will lead humanity to blissful, dignified and secure life in this world as well as in hereafter? Is it not surprising that the quran is using wording and in such a way that it seems unique as we can clearly see? Could a human being make use of words like this and in the way they are used in the quran? People have yet to examine the quran to see why it is the greatest book ever produced. All objections people raise against it or due to their lack of knowledge about the way for understanding the quran properly.

regards and all the best
sum
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by sum »

Hello Mughal

Your quote -
the proof of existence of God is his creation and his revelation.

This is certainly not proof at all.

Your quote -
The real question is, do you or others really know how to go about examining these proofs or evidences properly?

All you have to do is read the CLEAR Koran and it tells you all you need to know if you are a Koran-only muslim. Things become somewhat different if you accept Muhammad`s words and deeds as well as the CLEAR Koran.

I think that you are trapped into believing that there is a god and you were initially indoctrinated into believing that this god was Allah. Unfortunately, you do not like the reality of what the Koran says. It offends you just as I hope that many of the words and deeds of Muhammad also offend you. Because of this, you try your best to remain faithful to the Koran which you accept as revelations from Allah and resort to giving your own understanding of what the Koran says and so sanitise it.

Having read the Koran and its instructions to kill me because I reject both Allah and Muhammad etc I could only form the opinion that it is the most evil and malignant book ever written.

Please tell me your understanding of what chapter 9 says should happen to me as I reject Allah and Muhammad.

sum
Mughal
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Mughal »

sum wrote:Hello Mughal

Your quote -
the proof of existence of God is his creation and his revelation.

This is certainly not proof at all.

Your quote -
The real question is, do you or others really know how to go about examining these proofs or evidences properly?

All you have to do is read the CLEAR Koran and it tells you all you need to know if you are a Koran-only muslim. Things become somewhat different if you accept Muhammad`s words and deeds as well as the CLEAR Koran.

I think that you are trapped into believing that there is a god and you were initially indoctrinated into believing that this god was Allah. Unfortunately, you do not like the reality of what the Koran says. It offends you just as I hope that many of the words and deeds of Muhammad also offend you. Because of this, you try your best to remain faithful to the Koran which you accept as revelations from Allah and resort to giving your own understanding of what the Koran says and so sanitise it.

Having read the Koran and its instructions to kill me because I reject both Allah and Muhammad etc I could only form the opinion that it is the most evil and malignant book ever written.

Please tell me your understanding of what chapter 9 says should happen to me as I reject Allah and Muhammad.

sum
Dear sum, since you do not think the creation and revelation can be proof or evidence for existence of God then in your view how else could God let human beings know he does exist while he remains hidden?

You are also telling me the quran is clear for you to understand but in almost all your posts about the quran you seem to be confused. It very clearly shows to me you have no idea how to understand the quranic text properly. So again I suggest learn the right way of understanding the text of the quran properly.

I explain the quran from my point of view and I do not defend mullas interpretation of the quranic text and I have explained my reasons for it, so there is no point in you arguing with me over the text of the quran on basis of what mullas make of the quranic text due to their ignorance about the proper way of understanding the text of the quran properly.

I do not deny that mullas attribute a lot of nonsense to the text of the quran and hadis etc but I am showeing a clear way to prove them wrong. All you need to ask mullas and their followers is show you the right way of understanding the text of the quran properly. Once they tell you the way examine it carefully to see if it works or not.

For example, mullas tell us the quran must be understood through hadis. However they also tell us only those hadis are genuine which are according to the quran and not against it. Now you tell me how can we use hadis to understand the quran properly if hadis depend upon the quran for their authenticity to begin with?

Another example. You should know that sunnies and shias each have their own hadis collections and they do not accept each other's collections genuine, so whose interpretation through hadis should we accept and why?

What you are doing is telling me people who claim to be muslims say this and that and the other why should I accept your interpretation rather than theirs who are a huge majority? In response I suggest to you, do not accept anyone's interpretation of the quran unless it is based upon a standard that works and that includes my interpretation of the quran also. However I am also saying, know the right way of interpreting the quran and then judge the quran by yourself. This is why I am asking you, do you know the proper way for interpreting the text of the quran? The answer is a simple yes or no. If you say you know it then I want to know what is it so that I could examine it to see if you have it right or not. If you say you do not know it then I may be able to help. We can all work on this together to reach a genuine conclusion. We cannot do so if any of us takes an awkward position as you did by dismissing the creation and revelation as proof for existence of God and all the rest that goes with it.

As for your concern that God wants you dead or killed because you do not believe in him. That is nonsense because the quran clearly tells us there is no compulsion in deen of islam. However the problem which you are concerned about is, what will happen to people like you in an islamic kingdom or state that is genuinely based upon the guidance of the quran. This is then not about you but individuals in the state. If people will live as law abiding citizens of the state they will get all the benefits the state has to offer regardless of their race, colour of their skin, their religious or nonreligious beliefs etc etc. However anyone who will break the law will face the legal penalties.

You see the quran is the guide book for constitutions and laws so all rights and responsibilities for all people are supposed to be clearly laid down in the constitution and laws of the islamic state. An islamic kingdom once fully established has to be fully transparent. All its systems, structures, procedures and practices are supposed to be open for each and every person. This kingdom is supposed to be a brotherhood of humanity for ensuring well being of all people in the kingdom. In the kingdom of God it is the law that is supposed to be the supreme and not any person. All individuals and institutions must live by the law. The laws are supposed to be made on basis of solid principles in light of real world realities and not on recommendation of a majority or a minority.

Kingdoms based upon guidance of God were created by many messengers of God through out the world but they came to an end due to mistakes by their followers after them. The same happened in case of kingdom that was brought about by muhammad the final messenger form God. However as people reach a dead end in their search for right way of life the will turn to deen of islam and a kingdom based upon guidance of God will come about once more but it will be a worldwide or universal kingdom of God. This will take much more time yet because world population is not educated enough to turn to that idea yet.

regards and all the best
sum
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by sum »

Hello Mughal

Your post is full of generalities and there is nothing at all specific.

I asked for your opinion as to what should happen to me according to chapter nine in the Koran because I refuse to believe that Allah was a god and that Muhammad was a prophet but you ignored my question.

At some point you are going to have to let us know the specifics of your own personal interpretation of the Koran including answering my question.

sum
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Mughal »

Finally old lectures with english subtitles.

sum
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by sum »

Hello Mughal

You have still not told me what you believe chapter nine of the Koran says should happen to me if I refuse to believe in Allah or that Muhammad was his prophet.

Please let me know in your own words what the Koran chapter nine says should happen to me.

sum
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Mughal »

sum wrote:Hello Mughal

You have still not told me what you believe chapter nine of the Koran says should happen to me if I refuse to believe in Allah or that Muhammad was his prophet.

Please let me know in your own words what the Koran chapter nine says should happen to me.

sum
Dear sum, here is a short video with subtitles about virgins.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXxlhbGo_x8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

regards and all the best.
antineoETC
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by antineoETC »

Mughal wrote:I explain the quran from my point of view and I do not defend mullas interpretation of the quranic text and I have explained my reasons for it, so there is no point in you arguing with me over the text of the quran on basis of what mullas make of the quranic text due to their ignorance about the proper way of understanding the text of the quran properly.
Mughal, could you please answer my question: How do you interpret surah 24:2 variously rendered into English as below?:


Sahih International: The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah , if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.

Pickthall: The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge ye each one of them (with) a hundred stripes. And let not pity for the twain withhold you from obedience to Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of believers witness their punishment.

Yusuf Ali: The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

Shakir: (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement.

Muhammad Sarwar: Flog the fornicatress and the fornicator with a hundred lashes each. Let there be no reluctance in enforcing the laws of God, if you have faith in God and the Day of Judgment. Let it take place in the presence of a group of believers.

Mohsin Khan: The woman and the man guilty of illegal sexual intercourse, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment. (This punishment is for unmarried persons guilty of the above crime but if married persons commit it, the punishment is to stone them to death, according to Allah's Law).

Arberry: The fornicatress and the fornicator -- scourge each one of them a hundred stripes, and in the matter of God's religion let no tenderness for them seize you if you believe in God and the Last Day; and let a party of the believers witness their chastisement.


All the above agree that "adulterers"/committers of illegal sexual intercourse should be "pitilessly" flogged. Is this surah still applicable today? Do you subscribe to a different interpretation eg "adulterers should relentlessly have condoms and other contraceptions FLOGGED to them so they can sin in safety"?
"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website
Mughal
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Mughal »

Life after death

https://ia801307.us.archive.org/24/item ... -Trust.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
antineoETC
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by antineoETC »

Mughal wrote:Life after death

Mughal, in case you missed it, could you please answer my above question regarding flogging for adultery?
"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website
sum
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by sum »

Hello antineoETC

I doubt very much if Mughal will answer your question.

sum
antineoETC
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by antineoETC »

sum wrote:Hello antineoETC

I doubt very much if Mughal will answer your question.
I have actually PM'd Mughal on this matter but still no answer though he has visited this forum since. I am being to wonder if he is deliberately ignoring my simple easy-to-answer question. I wonder why he would do that?
"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website
Mughal
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Mughal »

My explanation of some end surahs of the quran can be read HERE , or can be listened to HERE ,
I will be updating these links as and when I can.
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Hombre
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Hombre »

All Islam's scriptures were derived from Jewish Talmud & Christian scriptures with mixture of Arabian Tribal customs going back 1500 years. No originality in any of those ideas which described in the Quran or the Hadith.

All you are doing is writing your on spin on Quranic scripture, which proves the fact that, the Quran & the Hadith may have been re-written by Muslim scholars as each of them interpreted the Quranic passages. In English they call it "Lost in Translation".
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Mughal »

Hombre wrote:All Islam's scriptures were derived from Jewish Talmud & Christian scriptures with mixture of Arabian Tribal customs going back 1500 years. No originality in any of those ideas which described in the Quran or the Hadith.

All you are doing is writing your on spin on Quranic scripture, which proves the fact that, the Quran & the Hadith may have been re-written by Muslim scholars as each of them interpreted the Quranic passages. In English they call it "Lost in Translation".
Dear hombre, deen of islam is founded upon only and only one scripture and that is the quran, which is revealed word of God for mankind to live by. In it God explains things for mankind about themselves and all other things. All other books written about deen of islam are written by people who claim to be muslims or nonmuslims ie they are human works for people themselves regardless they are for or against deen of islam. This is why the quran is a stand alone book. May be I will have to explain for people here what is meant by stand alone book. No muslim claims any other book is a God revealed book, be it a hadis book or a history book etc etc.

The question for you is, which jewish or christian book is word of God upon which they are based? To me they seem to be human works about God and all the rest of things. So jews and christians do not have any God revealed scriptures at all for which they could claim that is their stand alone scripture from God. For that reason as far as I am concerned, jews or christians are only following hearsay.

See if you or anyone else here can explain what is a stand alone book of God and why it is called that.

regards and all the best.
Last edited by Mughal on Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Hombre wrote:All Islam's scriptures were derived from Jewish Talmud & Christian scriptures with mixture of Arabian Tribal customs going back 1500 years. No originality in any of those ideas which described in the Quran or the Hadith.

All you are doing is writing your on spin on Quranic scripture, which proves the fact that, the Quran & the Hadith may have been re-written by Muslim scholars as each of them interpreted the Quranic passages. In English they call it "Lost in Translation".
I would call it "Lost in composition".
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Mughal »

Takeiteasynow wrote:
Hombre wrote:All Islam's scriptures were derived from Jewish Talmud & Christian scriptures with mixture of Arabian Tribal customs going back 1500 years. No originality in any of those ideas which described in the Quran or the Hadith.

All you are doing is writing your on spin on Quranic scripture, which proves the fact that, the Quran & the Hadith may have been re-written by Muslim scholars as each of them interpreted the Quranic passages. In English they call it "Lost in Translation".
I would call it "Lost in composition".
Dear takeiteasynow, could you please explain what you mean by lost in composition? Also try and explain what is meant by stand alone book of God and why it is called that or has to be like that.

regards and all the best.
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