Mughal the Infidel.

Prove Islam is from God, why it is the 'One True Religion'.
Mughal
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Mughal »

sum wrote:Hello Mughal

After your apostasy what made you decide that Islam was the "truth" after all? Did you start going back to the mosque and have your original programming reinforced and reinstated?

Can you clear the air for me?
Hello sum, greetings and how r u? I hope fine.

No, I am not a mazhabi muslim but a deeni muslim. For example, I only accept the quran as base of deen of islam not quraan and hadis or quran and sunnah. I do not accept anything on par with the quran. I am not quran only muslim either because I do not reject any source of information so long as it does not contradict the quran. I accept the quran as word of God because it seems to make perfect sense in light of real world realities. So I am in a way a unique muslim if you like.

Here is my way of looking at things. In my view quran alone is base of deen of islam, not quran & hadis or quran & sunnah, why not?

To understand that one needs to understand that from my point of view I like to explain things in a bit of detail because my point of view is not widely known already as other points of views. It is easier for people to talk to each other when they already know where they are coming from but a bit difficult when it comes to discussion between not well known points of views. This is why if I only stated some facts and did not explain them then one will not know what I am trying to say and why, this is why some detail becomes absolutely necessary or one will never know what I am trying to explain or why.

Let me make it absolutely clear that I do not reject any source of information about deen of islam at all. What I reject is the idea that all sources are equal with the quraan. That I cannot accept unless someone can clearly prove that that is the case beyond any reasonable doubt which no one has done so far in my life time. Looking at something clearly visible through smeared glasses is not going to let us see the thing clearly likewise looking at clear message of God through problematic hadis reports is not going to help us understand the quran properly. Moreover each thing has its own place value just like numbers in maths. One cannot just say a number but needs to have a context otherwise the number will not make any sense. Words likewise only make sense when they have contexts or a purposes to serve.

The reason I take the quran to be the only foundation of deen of islam is because it was God who created this world according to his plan for his purpose alone. This is why it was he who wanted to reveal his plan and purpose for mankind therefore he decided to send his messages for mankind. For this reason he devised a communication channel or chain through which he communicated his message for mankind. The revelation chain is not an exception rather like any other set up of this universe for various other purposes it is just another set up to serve a particular purpose eg one can look at ecosystem or solar system or rain cycle etc etc. The communication chain includes God and his missionaries ie people who work for him.

This explanation should make it very clear that communication channel and message of God are two different things. Purpose of communication channel is to act as medium for transmission of message of God and purpose of message of God is to guide mankind regarding matters which God thought were important for mankind to know so that mankind could fulfil his purpose for their part in his scheme of things. So everything revolves around plan and purpose of God for which he created this universe and people in it. Had God no purpose for creating this universe and people in it with ability of limited freedom of choice then he needed no plan nor did he need to create this universe. So making proper sense of his purpose and his plan is a basic necessity for understanding deen of islam because that is the reason he told mankind a way of life whereby they could fulfil his purpose according to his plan.

As for message of God once it reaches people through people it is up to people to accept it or reject it with their own understanding of it as they see fit for themselves. This message needs prior understanding of things before people could understand it. If it is given to people who lack in needed knowledge then they will not know what to do with it and the best example for that is human babies. Anything you give to a human baby he puts it in his mouth taking it as his feed. The only people who can understand the message in the quran is those who are literate themselves and have good knowledge of things the quran is talking about or those to whom the quran is recited and explained by others and they become sensible enough to make proper sense of things. The rest are as good as living dead.

This should explain why I say the quran should be understood in light of real world realities because that is what the quran is actually about ie it is a teaching for mankind as to how to live properly in this world. If I say to a baby make me a cup of tea. The baby will not know what I am talking about because baby has not yet learned words or relationship of words with things in the real world. He can repeat my words if he can talk but cannot carry out my request. This will remain the situation till baby grows enough and has sufficient life experience to come to know what my request meant for him. Only and only then he will be able to carry out my request. The quran is not any different when it comes to learning it for its proper understanding. Only those people come to understand it properly who have learned the way to understand it properly and they have learned the needed information and have the needed life experience. So all people who claim to know the quran if they are questioned about it, a huge majority of them will be dumbfounded.

The real point here is, it is God who wanted to send his message for mankind because he had to tell something to mankind and not messenger of God because messenger of God did not create people for his purpose according to his plan. The part messenger of God played in this scheme is, message bearer, ie just to pass on God's message to people after understanding it himself ie before he could do that he had to make sense of the message of God for himself according to his time and available human knowledge because he too had to act upon it and the message told him to deliver it to others and that is why he delivered it to others or taught it to others to the best of his God given abilities. We need to remember that God passed on his message to his messenger for himself and others not just for himself nor just for others.

By giving the wrong job description of messenger we are turning him into a God instead of God's messenger. The messenger was supposed to deliver message of God as it was ie as he received it from God, without adding anything to it or taking away anything from it. This is why the quran tells us he did not speak anything as quran other than the quran itself. It does not mean whatever he said or did was always revelations of God. It is because messengers of God made odd mistakes that is why their those stories are also told in the quran to ensure people do not take them for other than human beings. When a person himself makes mistakes how can he create a message like that of God's message by himself? It is because messengers of God are also human beings they too are prone to making mistakes called human errors but God draws their attention to their errors in some way and they correct them. However no messenger of God ever does anything wrong deliberately or intentionally.

The mistake people make in trying to understand this issue is that they do not separate the communication chain from the message the chain is supposed to deliver for which the communication chain is set up by God who made sure it worked for his purpose according to his plan and it does and that is why we have the quran today so many centuries after the final messenger of God has gone from this world. This is why the actual framework or structure of deen of islam has to come from the quran alone not from mixed sources particularly when those sources are prone to mistakes and errors beyond corrections. During the revelation of the quraan any mistake made by the messenger of God was corrected by God but after the stopping of the revelation when people started attributing things to him there was no revelation from God any more for correcting people. This is why whatever people attributed to God or his messenger was no longer as reliable as whatever was left behind by the messenger of God as the quran. This is why distinguishing between revelation of God and reports by people becomes inevitable.

The fact is, messengers of God have been making mistakes and that is what the quran itself tells us. For this reason God could not tell us to follow them unconditionally or blindly that is why whenever God tells us to follow his messenger it means in things which he did according to the quran to fulfil his God given mission and not absolutely in each and everything he said or did. To follow anyone absolutely is naturally impossible because one can never know each and everything about anyone even on daily basis or we ought to have moment to moment diaries of messenger of God not hadis books. Moreover look at human attention span. How many people can remain fully alert and aware or attentive during a whole 24 hour day? People get tired after a while and that is why people go to sleep or rest to recoup their energy. Even when we are fully attentive we cannot pay attention to everything that is happening all around us. If we look at one things in front of us there is another thing going on behind us. We can only focus on one thing at a time. This is why when a magician makes us look at one thing in one of his hands he does something else with his other hand to which we are not paying attention in order to trick us. So due to such natural limitations how much can we know about anyone at all including our own very selves?

So people who tell us we know each and everything about the messenger of God are not realising what they are saying or claiming about messenger of God otherwise they could never claim what they claim about messenger of God. Moreover there are things which messengers of Allah said and did as reported in hadis books which if we said and did we will become kaafir therefore it is wrong to say we must follow messenger of God absolutely and unconditionally without any limits or qualifications. So I do not see what is so difficult there to understand if people have learned the knowledge they need to, to make proper sense of the message in the quran? If they have not learned the needed knowledge to understand the message in the quran properly then they cannot understand any explanation no matter how detailed it is. It is because we human beings are born not knowing a thing and it takes us ages to grow up by learning things bit by bit on daily basis. This is the real extent of explanation that is required for a human being to start making proper sense of things.

Moreover how can one use a secondary source to interpret the main source if secondary source itself depends upon main source for its qualification or authenticity? This is why the quran alone has to be the foundation of deen of islam. However once we have derived the structure or framework of deen of islam from the quran alone in light of real world realities thereafter we can use all other sources to fill in details where need be that is consistent with the framework of deen of islam as derived from the quran alone just like bits of jig saw puzzle. I am saying real world realities because the quran is all about how people ought to live in the real world. Deen of islam is nothing other than a way of life advised by Allah for mankind to live in this world properly to fulfil his purpose of creating them according to his given plan or roadmap or program.

Furthermore mullahs have misinterpreted the quran by telling us it is a complete code of life instead of telling us we need to extract framework of deen of islam from the quran to form a complete code of life to live by. The quran does not give us a fully worked out constitution and laws for organising human society and regulating it. This is why we do not have ummah as the final messenger of God left behind after its formation on basis of the quran alone. As I see it unless people go back to the quran alone as foundation of deen of islam there is not going to be any ummah in the future either as it has not been over the so many past centuries.



Furthermore as I have explained already I do not accept jinns are such creatures as mullahs tell us. Again I have my reason to reject their ideas because their ideas conflict with real world realities. If you want me to explain this in detail then I can in another post. I have many differences with mullahs' islam. They misinterpret the quran grossly. Muillahs' islam is nothing more than personality cults. The quran is not at all about personality cults. It is about rule of law given to mankind by God to live by. No one is above the law of God not even God himself. Imagine what will happen if God did not keep his law himself? All his promises will mean nothing at all. So my understanding of the quranic text is very different from what people are used to and it is consistent which makes it acceptable for me and hopefully for others. I am busy writing detailed explanation of words used in the quran. It is going to take a lot of my time to complete.

regards and all the best
Last edited by Mughal on Tue May 22, 2018 6:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Mughal »

Fernando wrote:So one "correct" Koran might exist, among many incorrect ones. So somebody could take the correct Koran and a pen and put all the others right.
But how does he know which is the correct one?
Dear fernando, it is possible to identity correct text of the quran from all the variants but I have not yet had the time to finish what I am already doing. These projects need time and people to get involved. So called muslims are busy fighting each other instead of working on the quran on aspects that are of vital importance to deal with.

May be a kaafir will start a project of this nature one day because people who claim to be muslims are hopeless people. By the way why do you not start this project? Start devising a method that works for this purpose by collecting all the variations then see which of them is wrong and why. That is all there is to it if anyone is interested in starting that project. I cannot leave what I am doing and start doing that just now.

regards and all the best.
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by manfred »

About that "sure guidance" thing...
A recent study of Palestinian textbooks found that Palestinian children are being taught to glorify and value terrorism and violence. The Palestinian Authority and its Minister of Education, Sabri Saidam, want Arab schools in Jerusalem to teach the students why Muslims should be killing Jews.

"Within the pages of the textbooks, children are being taught to be expendable. Messages such as: 'The Volcano of My Revenge'; 'The Longing of my Blood for my Land'; and 'I Shall Sacrifice My Blood to Saturate the Land' suffuse the [Palestinian] curriculum. Math books use numbers of dead martyrs to teach arithmetic. The vision of an Arab Palestine includes the entirety of what is now Israel, defined as the '1948 Occupied Territories.'"
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/1197 ... curriculum" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Are these children "surely guided" in their Islamic education, Mughal?

By their fruits you will know them. Do you
gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
Matthew 7:16-18
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"
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Fernando
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Fernando »

Mughal wrote:
Fernando wrote:So one "correct" Koran might exist, among many incorrect ones. So somebody could take the correct Koran and a pen and put all the others right.
But how does he know which is the correct one?
By the way why do you not start this project? Start devising a method that works for this purpose by collecting all the variations then see which of them is wrong and why. That is all there is to it if anyone is interested in starting that project. I cannot leave what I am doing and start doing that just now.

regards and all the best.
Thanks for suggesting me for the job, but there's a semantic problem. By "correct" you, I think, mean "original and unaltered". Whereas I would require it to be "accurate and true", which I cannot accept any Koran to be. So I'm afraid I must decline.
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Mughal »

manfred wrote:About that "sure guidance" thing...
A recent study of Palestinian textbooks found that Palestinian children are being taught to glorify and value terrorism and violence. The Palestinian Authority and its Minister of Education, Sabri Saidam, want Arab schools in Jerusalem to teach the students why Muslims should be killing Jews.

"Within the pages of the textbooks, children are being taught to be expendable. Messages such as: 'The Volcano of My Revenge'; 'The Longing of my Blood for my Land'; and 'I Shall Sacrifice My Blood to Saturate the Land' suffuse the [Palestinian] curriculum. Math books use numbers of dead martyrs to teach arithmetic. The vision of an Arab Palestine includes the entirety of what is now Israel, defined as the '1948 Occupied Territories.'"
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/1197 ... curriculum" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Are these children "surely guided" in their Islamic education, Mughal?

By their fruits you will know them. Do you
gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
Matthew 7:16-18
Dear manfred, it is not just people who claim to be muslims who use name of God and his messenger in vain but almost everyone. The proof is people talk about God but do not study things which could help them know what the actual purpose and plan of God is for them. All people are fighting among themselves not only with those whom they take for their enemies.

As I have explained already in detail, for so long as people will go after each other for personal gains at each other's expense unity, peace, progress and prosperity is not possible for humanity because all this goes against the very spirit of goodwill for each other to ensure well being of each other. We human beings have chosen to live by a way of life which can only and only lead to our destruction by hands of each other as told in the quran repeatedly. Many people in the world have been destroyed by this way of life and the destruction still continues and will continue.

People think by being more powerful than each other they can control each other by force but that has not been possible to date. Our history is a witness to that fact. If we will not change our mindsets, attitudes and behaviours then I am afraid we are heading for the same thing which destroyed the past generations.

This is why if we want to change things for the best of all of us then we need to do our homework. There is no easy way around what is going on throughout our world.

My study of the quran has made many things very clear to me but the main things is only and only learning of knowledge both about real world realities and the revealed truth. Only and only through having knowledge we can try and convince each other as to what is right way of life to live in this world to attain blissful, dignified and secure existence as a proper human community. All else is mere falsehood no matter how people package it or sugar coat it.

This is why a lot of work is needed on the quran which brings to our attention actual importance of the quran and its true message for which God revealed it. For so long as people are busy trying to ignore the vital importance of the quran and its true message they are bound to remain in the situation they are in.

People who claim to be muslims are particularly target of wrath of rest of humanity because they have misinterpreted and misrepresented the message of God to them. They were made custodians of the message of God but they have fallen well short of their God given target or God assigned mission. Whatever they do, they do it because they are left with no option by nonmuslim world. That cannot be labelled working for mission of God. Moreover they hinder those who try to work on the mission of God. So whatever muslims do for mission of Allah, it is too little and too late. So they deserve whatever they are getting from rest of humanity. The rest of humanity also deserves whatever it is getting from each other as well as muslims because they too have brains, senses, bodies and things to learn from by interacting with them as well as the quran to receive guidance form but they too are living like animals wasting their lives away aimlessly. So we all deserve each other every bit. I wish God raises some sensible people throughout our world to show us his advised way of life so that we could really become real human beings God intended us to be.

regards and all the best.
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by manfred »

Mughal, you claim that God himself wrote a book to guide humanity. Those who agree with your idea about this guidance behave in the way I (and to some extent you) mentioned.

Are they too stupid to understand what was given to them to guide them? If yes, how could an all-knowing divine being make such a grave error, and to speak to them clearly?

Are they ignoring the guidance given...? The Qur'an is abundantly clear about what happens to those who do that, and Muslims are to the last one perfectly aware of this. If Allah knew that his effort would fail, why did he not try something else?

The last alternative is that the Muslims are really following the Qur'an as a guide to their lives. Then you must apply the biblical yardstick: how does it bear fruit? Does Islam make a person a better human being? The answer is obviously, Muslims become better human being when they ignore Islam. This means that the "guidance" of the "Qur'an" is leading people to evil.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Mughal »

Fernando wrote:So one "correct" Koran might exist, among many incorrect ones. So somebody could take the correct Koran and a pen and put all the others right. But how does he know which is the correct one?

Thanks for suggesting me for the job, but there's a semantic problem. By "correct" you, I think, mean "original and unaltered". Whereas I would require it to be "accurate and true", which I cannot accept any Koran to be. So I'm afraid I must decline.
Dear fernando, we all desire a lot of things in life but nothing gets done unless we get up and do the needed work for getting them. Likewise if we want to find out which copy of the quran is original then we will have to make efforts for it otherwise we will have to put up with confusion the life seems to be. Many take this road but end up in various kinds of troubles in many ways. Whatever harmful and destructive is going on in our world is because of people not doing what they are suppose to be doing and doing what they are not suppose to be doing. If we ourselves do not wish to contribute to what helps our world to be a beautiful world then what right we have to be critical of anyone else? It is because if I am using my freedom of choice then others have right to use their freedom of choice. So criticism of muslims is not right by those people who themselves are doing the same. Mind your own business is not the way to go or we are all going to end up in hell of our own making by driving each other crazy. The only way forward is full cooperation so that we could harmonise humanity or reconcile it with itself. This is why we need deen of islam based upon the quran because the quran is the only book which claims to be the book sent by God for humanity to live properly in this world for the good of mankind.

This is why the quran must be worked on by all who wish to see this word a beautiful place or a paradise for human beings to live in. The quran has been worked on by odd people every now and then and I have shared links to one of them. Dr shehzad saleem has done a good job in trying to identify the correct copy of the quran and that is called qiraatul aamah. It was a great effort by this human being. He is a student of javed ghamdi. I too will do more work on the quran if I get the chance but first I need to complete what I am doing already as that too is of vital importance. It is not that correct copies of the quran do not exist rather our world is full of correct copies but that incorrect ones also exist along the correct ones and they can be identified. That is all there is to it. When people do not know things about something properly they talk a lot of nonsense about it. This is why it is better for a person to try to know things about the quran and deen of islam and then talk about it.

regards and all the best.


Last edited by Mughal on Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Mughal »

manfred wrote:Mughal, you claim that God himself wrote a book to guide humanity. Those who agree with your idea about this guidance behave in the way I (and to some extent you) mentioned.

Are they too stupid to understand what was given to them to guide them? If yes, how could an all-knowing divine being make such a grave error, and to speak to them clearly?

Are they ignoring the guidance given...? The Qur'an is abundantly clear about what happens to those who do that, and Muslims are to the last one perfectly aware of this. If Allah knew that his effort would fail, why did he not try something else?

The last alternative is that the Muslims are really following the Qur'an as a guide to their lives. Then you must apply the biblical yardstick: how does it bear fruit? Does Islam make a person a better human being? The answer is obviously, Muslims become better human being when they ignore Islam. This means that the "guidance" of the "Qur'an" is leading people to evil.

Dear manfred, this is not question of stupidity of mankind but of purpose and plan of God and how human beings fit in with all this. It is due to plan and purpose of God we human beings have been created babies knowing nothing at all. Moreover we are left on our own to find out things for ourselves by way of interacting with things all around us using our own brains and senses and bodies. Only when we become self aware and aware of things all around us we may question our origin and purpose and that is when the revelation of God comes in. The revelation of God is useless for people who fail to become self aware or aware of things all around them. Such people cannot realise the need for guidance so guidance is not for such people. If you do not feel thirsty you are not going to look for water or something to quench your thirst with. This is why the quran tells us in 2/2 it is a book which is beyond any doubt guidance for those who have developed desire to be guided. This is why unless one has reached that level of consciousness a person is not going to need guidance of God therefore he will not look for it.

This is why the quran differentiates between various types of people for different reasons and calls some people mindful and others worse than animals. For example, the quran calls a human being basher for the reason one is a human being. The quran calls people naas but why? It calls people jinn, why? It calls them mushrikeen, why? It calls them kafireen, why? It calls them munaafiqeen, why? It calls them muslimeen, why? In any human language when we name people we name them for a reason. Why we call a person milkman or shopkeeper or husband or father or mother or friend or enemy or whatever? This is why when we read the quran we need to know words have meanings but to have those meanings there have to be reasons. This is why the quran tells us a human being is at animal level of thinking till he become self conscious and conscious of one's environment and what is going on all around oneself why or how etc. Only such a person may think about origin and purpose of human existence. If once thinks then one will need to look for guidance from god and if one is lucky will find it as well.

This is why before one could understand the text of the quran one has to be knowledgeable enough to benefit from the information the quran contains. Things are easy only for those who come to know them properly, for the rest they are very hard or difficult till they learn them. Take maths for example, when we start schools huge math books frighten us but the same books become so easy once we have worked very hard in learning them. So nothing seems sensible till we start learning and thinking and doing things. This is how the quran makes us real world reality conscious. This is why people who think the quran is just a religious mumbo jumbo are right because the quran shows them mirror ie people who have little or no knowledge of things take the quran for that sort of book and those who have knowledge of things take the quran as that sort of book.

I have explained already why God created human beings so no point in trying to explain the same again instead one should read my other posts to see what I have explained and where. God did not program us fully like robots needing no guidance at all instead he programmed us to a degree so that we could serve his purpose so that his plan fulfils. This is why God tells us he did not create this universe for no purpose at all just for sake of it rather it was created for a definite purpose and all is planned by God to move things in the direction he has decide for all things. This is why deen of islam is not at all about pooja paat and blind faith but about higher purpose according to God and evidence based faith and working towards the God defined end. So it is not just question of who claims to be a muslim and who does not but who is working towards the end God has decided for humanity and who is not or who is oppsing it for no reason at all other than one's own lack of knowledge.

The basic question is, if one does not know what God wants of him then what that person is going to do to please God? This is why proper understanding of message of God is absolutely necessary so that then one could adopt the way of life which is advised by God to reach the end God has set for humanity the way God advises. All else matters not.

regards and all the best.
Last edited by Mughal on Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Hombre »

Dear mughal
welcome back. I guess, by now you have completed your own interpretation of the Holy Quran. Are these long posts are the preview of your book. if yes, it would be nice if you would make it available (pdf format) here for anyone to download it
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Fernando »

Thanks for the link to the video Mughal. I'm afraid I haven't time to watch it through with the concentration it deserves and my computer is on a go-slow at the moment but I skipped through and found the summmary at about 31mins. The scholar's basic argument seems to be that the Koran is its own authority on its collection and transmission.
I'm afaid I must dismiss this as flawed logic, no different from claiming that the Koran is true because it says it is true.
Sorry.
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Mughal »

Hombre wrote:Dear mughal
welcome back. I guess, by now you have completed your own interpretation of the Holy Quran. Are these long posts are the preview of your book. if yes, it would be nice if you would make it available (pdf format) here for anyone to download it
Dear hombre, thanks for the welcome and hope you r fine. No, I have not completed my work on the quran yet. It is going to take some time yet because this project is far too big therefore it involves a lot of hard work but I am hopeful for completing it and rest only God knows. Once I have it completed it will be available freely for all to down load it.

regards and all the best.
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Mughal »

Fernando wrote:Thanks for the link to the video Mughal. I'm afraid I haven't time to watch it through with the concentration it deserves and my computer is on a go-slow at the moment but I skipped through and found the summmary at about 31mins. The scholar's basic argument seems to be that the Koran is its own authority on its collection and transmission.
I'm afaid I must dismiss this as flawed logic, no different from claiming that the Koran is true because it says it is true.
Sorry.
Dear fernando, that is not what he is explaining but since you have not watched the whole series you are not expected to know the background. He is saying the quran tells us God has taken the responsibility to preserve the quran but how he did it through human beings is found in books of history. This is why he is going through reports contained in various books and explaining which reports are authentic and why and which are not and why not and on that basis he draws his conclusion the quran we have is the original quran and copies which differ with it are containing mistakes which are talked about in the historical accounts. So it is not a case of not knowing the original text of the quran but that we know which copies contain mistakes and why or what kind of mistakes and since when etc. This is why this is a reasonably good piece of work after a very long time by a muslims on the originality of the quran with proof. This is only a start and hopefully some more people will get involved in improving it. It is really a worthy piece of work. He spent fifteen years in carrying out this research work.

regards and all the best.
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Hombre »

Mughal wrote:Dear hombre, thanks for the welcome and hope you r fine. No, I have not completed my work on the quran yet. It is going to take some time yet because this project is far too big therefore it involves a lot of hard work but I am hopeful for completing it and rest only God knows. Once I have it completed it will be available freely for all to down load it.

regards and all the best.
Mughal
I want to commend you for your effort to interpret the Quran. The problem is Quran descriptions of all those heavenly events are the short narration & summary of all the biblical stories.

To complete your work, you need to refer to those sources from which Quran was derived.
1. Hebrew Bible.
https://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0101.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2. New Testament.
manferd will provide you with good references to read.

Both books describe - in much more detail about Adam & Eve as well as other stories mentioned in the Quran.

good luck :bggrn:
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

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Hombre wrote:
Mughal wrote:Dear hombre, thanks for the welcome and hope you r fine. No, I have not completed my work on the quran yet. It is going to take some time yet because this project is far too big therefore it involves a lot of hard work but I am hopeful for completing it and rest only God knows. Once I have it completed it will be available freely for all to down load it.

regards and all the best.
Mughal
I want to commend you for your effort to interpret the Quran. The problem is Quran descriptions of all those heavenly events are the short narration & summary of all the biblical stories.

To complete your work, you need to refer to those sources from which Quran was derived.
1. Hebrew Bible.
https://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0101.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2. New Testament.
manferd will provide you with good references to read.



Both books describe - in much more detail about Adam & Eve as well as other stories mentioned in the Quran.

good luck :bggrn:

Dear Hombre, I do not dismiss any source when it comes to understanding of things. as every little helps. The main problem is misconceptions which we can clearly see if we could educate ourselves to a particular level. For example, I took islam for a mazhab just like other muslims because that is what was and is taught in muslim countries. Not only in muslim countries but muslims all over the world learn islam in context of mazhab. However when I woke up to critical thinking I found islam did not make any sense to me whatsoever in context of mazhab.

Not only that islam did not make any sense to me in context of mazhab but that mazhab did not make any sense to me in general be it hinduism, parsi-ism, judaism or christianity. The main reason was and is mazhab has nothing at all to offer humanity. Only when I came across idea of islam is a deen I began studying islam once more. This time it made some sense to me so I studied islam in context of deen more and more and it made sense more and more.

I have explained in detail already the fact that islam is a deen and not a mazhab. I have explained already the difference between the two concepts of islam.

Deen of islam has five pillars.

1)TOWHEED=declaration about oneness of God and how he revealed his message. God is sole ruler of this universe and none else and that muhammad is his last messenger through whom God revealed his final program in the quran. Can this create a better world for humanity? Yes. How? By bringing humanity under rule of God instead of people ruling each other. Does this address issue of needs of people? Yes. How? When people become one ummah and organise and regulate themselves on basis of guidelines provided by the quran they can sort out the issue of their needs and wants by taking all needed steps with full cooperation and support of each other. This will give people a real chance to work for ensuring well being of each other instead of competing against each other as rivals or enemies for personal gains at the expense of each other.

If one looks at declaration of faith in islam one cannot miss this clear cut concept that God alone has the right to rule the universe and each and every bit or atom of it by virtue of being its creator and owner and sustainer and none other than God has any right at all to rule anything at all. Human beings are only managers and consumers of what God has granted them to fulfil his purpose of their creation and that is all. God has provided people things to carry out his assigned mission by implementing his revealed program.

2)SALAAH=community network. It is necessary for humanity to form a network of humanity based upon guidance of the quran ie become an ummah or a proper human community so that quraanic program could be implemented. Can this create a better world for humanity? Yes, because becoming one people under rule of law of God has its huge advantages for humanity. It turns people in to a team that can work for all its essential goals which can help it fulfil all its proper needs and wants with help and support of each other in order to carry out the plan of God for fulfilling his purpose for which he created human beings.

3)SOWM=abstinence. It is necessary for people to abstain from doing all that which could cause damage to ummah or could cause tensions or fractures or fights between people of the community. Can this create a better world for humanity? Yes. How? When people do not do anything for harming or destroying each other deliberately then humanity can do things it needs to do rather than worrying about fighting with each other for robbing each other of each other's rights. Does this address the issue of needs of people? Yes.

4)ZAKAAH=growth or to increase capacity or strength or prosperity. It is necessary for people to work for improvement and development or growth and prosperity or expansion of the ummah. Can this create a better world for humanity? Yes. How? When all people of the community do all they can according to the best of their God given abilities for ensuring well being of each other then it is going to help humanity become as strong and as powerful as it is possible for it. Does this address the issue of needs of people? Yes. How? The more humanity as a proper family is able to organise and regulate itself for fulfilling its needs the more capable the proper community becomes to be able to fulfil its real needs and wants.

5)HAJJ=sacred journey towards a set destination or goal, It is necessary for people to bring about a kingdom based upon guidance of God ie to establish rule of law of God in the world properly. This is a sacred journey to accomplish a sacred goal. Can this create a better world for humanity? Yes. How? When all people have access to all resources of the universe and they work for their own well being as a proper human family under God then humanity can turn this world into a living paradise for itself and that is how it can prove guidance of God is true and worthy and the provider of this guidance is truly great = Allahu akber.



Compare these five pillars of deen of islam to five pillars of mullah islam or mullaism.



1)Carry out pooja(worship) of only one God instead of none or many Gods. Can this create a better world for humanity? No. Does this address issue of needs of people? No.

2)Pray five times daily. Can this create better world for humanity? No. Does this address issue of needs of people? No. Moreover praising God could only be true if it is from the bottom of one's heart otherwise it is only a lip service which reflect badly both on the one seeking praise and the one offering praise. This is really very bad concept about God in minds of people of all versions of mazhab. Likewise praying for something to God makes no sense because God cannot please all people no matter what because people make opposing demands of God. Moreover if God has his own purpose and plan for creating this world and people in it then how can he carry out his purpose according to his plan if he lets people interrupt him? It is a question of God fitting in plans and purposes of people or people learning to fit in purpose and plan of God.

3)Fasting for a month in a year during month of ramadan. Can this create a better world for humanity? No. Does this address issue of needs of people? No. Moreover God does not want people to suffer needlessly as staying hungry and thirsty only causes harm to human beings in different ways eg lack of sleep and rest interrupts working ability of people which reduces productivity. So month of ramadan proves to be curse rather than a blessing for humanity. Also islamic calender was started several years after the death of the prophet so there was no month by name of ramadan in time of the prophet so it seems a false attribution to deen of islam.

4)Paying poor's due at the rate of 2.5% per year on whatever one owns over and above one's essential basic needs. This is only for those who are rich or have more than what they need. Can this create a better world for humanity? No. Does this address issue of needs of people appropriately? No. This makes rich people much more richer and poor people much more poorer. It is recipe for destruction of humanity by hands of each other due to divide between rich and poor and no redressing of balance at all. Add to this inheritance law of mullahs to make it absolutely disastrous. Family of a rich man gets richer and family of a poor man gets poorer.

5)Visit kaaba in makkah once in life time during month of hajj. This is only for people who can afford it. Can this create a better world for humanity? No. Does this address issue of needs of people? No.


So what has mullahs' islam to offer humanity other than self torture and wasting their time as well we imposing painful suffering upon them by hands of rulers, money lenders and mullahs?

People who deliberately tell us islam is a religion are lying to us be they pretending to be muslims are nonmuslims. Deen of islam is from Allah but mazhab is creation of rulers, money lenders and mullahs in order to fool masses.

All Religious people of all religions are fooling themselves and each other by giving rulers, money lenders and mullahs a free hand for their abusive use by them and as a result whole humanity is going through terrible painful suffering by hands of each other.

This is why deen of islam must be judged within its own proper context not on basis of a bit from here and bit from there. It is a system like a machine which has its own components in their proper places that make it function properly. Deen of islam was never implemented properly after the demise of the final messenger of Allah that is why the kingdom based upon guidance of Allah which he setup ended up destroyed due to mistakes of his followers within a short period of time.

I also explained wording of AZAAN or ADHAAN which mullahs tell us is a call for prayer. It is not a call for prayer but a call for unity of humanity under God according to revealed message of God through muhammad his final messenger. When people will look at adhaan in context of deen of islam they will see true meanings of words used in adhaan.

Once people will look at the quranic text in context of deen of islam and get meanings of words from dictionaries instead of nonsense of mullahs like me they too will come to know message of the quran. But till people do that things will continue as they are or may get yet worse or ugly. In my view deen of islam is not the problem but a problem solver for humanity whereas people who claim to be muslims are the real problem who despite claiming to be muslims believe and practice what their mullahs tell them or whatever suits themselves and call it islam. They are to blame fully because they never study the quran as it ought to be studied. Nopnmuslims are also to blame because they instead of studying the quran themselves properly and challenging muslims for their beliefs and practices against deen of islam blame deen of islam without really knowing what it is all about.

Not only we have problem with muslims but all versions of mazhab followers be they hindus or christians or whatever. It is because when we study their scriptures they too contain things which support the message of the quran. They too do not fit in with idea of mazhab because they contain statements which cannot be implemented or acted upon unless one takes them as political and economic messages just like the quran.

One only needs to see how can a people speak the truth if their society is set up in such a way that people are forced to lie? How can we stop a people from stealing in a society if a society is forcing poverty on some of its people by design? So I can go on and on. This shows very clearly why some people have twisted words of God to further their own agendas in the very name of God. I can criticise each and every version of mazhab severely. Not only that I can challenge secularism and democracy as well for its part in harm and destruction of humanity. This is why quran based deen of islam is the only worthy solution for mankind to adopt if they have wish for unity, peace, progress and prosperity of mankind.

regards and all the best.
Last edited by Mughal on Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mughal
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

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M85
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by M85 »

Strange this line of fantastic claims of great Quranic knowledge continues to gain momentum; this really should be embarrassing to the Islamic world. But it rolls on as the Quran has revealed all of the great answers to the scientific disciplines, from quantum physics to the periodic table, etc. Turns out the greatest minds in history have simply been wasting all of their time and efforts over the centuries when they simply could have just read the Quran!

Of course the greatest scientific minds of the world still have not pinpointed the location of the muddy pool which the sun sets in. (They still believe the earth is round and revolves around the sun, crazy things like that).
"I would rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on earth" - Steve McQueen
Mughal
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

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Conspiracies against the quran by dr abdul wadood
https://factszz.files.wordpress.com/201 ... tquran.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
frankie
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by frankie »

Mughal

The Quran has errors contained within it which should not be the case if it were a book from a divine being, as no God worthy of the name would make such fundamental errors about the creation of his own making.

Here is one such error, proving the Quran originates from the minds of fallible men, and not as claimed, from an infallible being.

The sun does not “set” anywhere, but it would appear to do so in the eyes of a 7th century Arabian, who did not know any better, which is why this error found its way into the Quran.

Quran 18.86
Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness

Tafsir 18.86
Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs
Till, when he reached the setting place of the sun) where the sun sets, (he found it setting in a muddy spring) a blackened, muddy and stinking spring; it is also said that this means: a hot spring, (and found a people thereabout) these people were disbelievers: (We said: O Dhu'l-Qarnayn!) We inspired him (Either punish) either kill them until they accept to believe that there is no deity except Allah (or show them kindness) or you pardon them and let them be.

Sunan Abu Dawud : Dar-us-Salam reference / Hadith 4002
Narrated Abu Dharr:
I was sitting behind the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets ? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water (Hamiyah).Indexes
Dar-us-Salam reference
sum
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by sum »

Hello Mughal

I read the beginning but soon gave up. What you presented was by a man who was indoctrinated in childhood into accepting Allah and his Koran. He did not have the opportunity to grow up free from religious indoctrination and then, as a mature adult, compare and contrast the various religions and their intermediaries to mankind.

The gist of what I read is simply that Allah created everything and made it all work. There is not shred of evidence for this. There is not a shred of evidence that Allah exists or that Muhammad was a genuine prophet. It is all based on supposition. The foundations of Islam are resting on shifting sands. Everything falls onto the shoulders of Muhammad - without him Islam would not exist.

Without Muhammad, the ideology of Islam would not have been created. When the character of Muhammad is examined from all the information available it is as obvious as can be that he wrote it, errors and all, first and foremost for his own selfish ends. Surely you can see this, Mughal?

It strikes me that this book is first and foremost a rejection of Christianity, Islam`s main rival.

sum
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Hombre »

sum wrote:Hello Mughal

I read the beginning but soon gave up. What you presented was by a man who was indoctrinated in childhood into accepting Allah and his Koran. He did not have the opportunity to grow up free from religious indoctrination and then, as a mature adult, compare and contrast the various religions and their intermediaries to mankind.

The gist of what I read is simply that Allah created everything and made it all work. There is not shred of evidence for this. There is not a shred of evidence that Allah exists or that Muhammad was a genuine prophet. It is all based on supposition. The foundations of Islam are resting on shifting sands. Everything falls onto the shoulders of Muhammad - without him Islam would not exist.

Without Muhammad, the ideology of Islam would not have been created. When the character of Muhammad is examined from all the information available it is as obvious as can be that he wrote it, errors and all, first and foremost for his own selfish ends. Surely you can see this, Mughal?

It strikes me that this book is first and foremost a rejection of Christianity, Islam`s main rival.

sum
Excellant post sum. Couldn't have said it any better.
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