Mughal the Infidel.

Prove Islam is from God, why it is the 'One True Religion'.
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Mughal
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Mughal »

sum wrote:Mughal has a difficult question to overcome and which he has so far refused to answer. While Mughal claims that the impressions we get from the Koran are wrong and the message is basically peaceful, when asked if Muhammad acted in accordance with the message of the Koran and the evil deeds perpetrated by Muhammad were in accord with the teaching of the Koran he leaves the thread because he can not answer this without either criticising Muhammad or the Koran. Despite all the evil deeds perpetrated by Muhammad there are no criticisms in the Koran and so one can only conclude that Muhammad did actually follow "Allah`s" the guidance in the Koran.

This is a major stumbling block for Mughal which is why he will not answer the question of whether Muhammad fully understood, and acted upon, the guidance of "Allah" in the Koran.

sum
Dear sum, I do not have difficulty in answering your questions but it is up to you to make proper sense of things in the quran in its own proper context. I have stated clearly that in the quranic context people only matter if they do something according to the revealed message of God. If you read surah 2 verses 124 etc you will see what God told abraham despite the fact that life of abraham and his companions is an excellent example for humanity see 60/4. The quran does not put forth any human being as free of all mistakes including messengers of God. What sincere Godly people do is they do not dwell upon their mistakes instead they correct their mistakes and that is why they are excellent examples for Godly people among human beings.

A human is born as a baby and grows both in mind and body. During this process a human makes plenty of mistakes as you will know from your own mistakes in your life time. We are supposed to learn from our mistakes and move on. God did not expect people to make no mistakes but to continue learning and improving ourselves according to his set standard. So long as we do that we are fine. God has set us a standard as a target to achieve and we are supposed to work towards that. One day mankind will reach that target with help and support of each other. If we look back at human history we have made a lot of progress and that is how we are going to continue till we reach the top end of spectrum.

As for life of muhammad the messenger of God, he was not free of all mistakes but what people attribute to him is in question. The reason it is in question is because people who have ulterior agendas do attribute falsehood to good people in order to discredit them. Since the quran alone is word of God and it testifies the character of muhammad was excellent see 69/1therefore anything other people attribute to him against the quran cannot be accepted. It is a simple explanation which makes perfect sense.

The main thing we need to realise is this that the quran can be interpreted rationally and I have shown how. The quran does not accept miracles and make beliefs or useless practices. The quran is a rational book that forces mankind to accept it as word of God on that basis.

Let us think about what hindus believe ie they believe God incarnates. Was it necessary for God to incarnate? My answer is absolutely not? My challenge to all hindus is prove necessity for God for incarnation. They cannot. You can try on their behalf and so can others on this forum. They cannot. Today no human being claims he is a God incarnate in our world who could prove his such claim. Very same question and challenge stands for all who accept this idea or belief including christians who claim jesus was God incarnate. Who represents jesus today who can prove his any such claim? None.

Let us go into idea of miracles and ask the same question ie are miracles necessary for proving existence of God? If yes why? Are we who claim to believe in God today do so on basis of rational revealed message of God or miracles or because of concept of God incarnation? Who has seen any miracle and by who? Who has seen any God incarnate person in person? No one. Such claims can never be proven no matter what. If we can believe in God today without any need for miracles then why could not the people in the past? The same goes for idea of God incarnation. All we need is a book which explains things rationally consistently which the quran does.

The quran tells us God never performed any miracles instead he revealed his messages through his messengers to educate mankind to be proper human beings. We only have two acts of God ie creation and revelation. This is why people who believe in God incarnation or miracles are holding onto falsehood.

Existence of God can only and only be proven through rational explanation using creation and revelation as evidences. This is why deen of islam is not a religion because it does not support make beliefs and useless practices. I have explained many things in my explanation of the quranic text towards which most people have never paid much attention for various reasons including being ignorant or illiterate or uneducated or lacking in higher level of thinking skills.

This is why people are doing disservice to their alleged God sent books by misinterpreting them provided they can be interpreted rationally consistently.

Why is there something rather than nothing or how can anything come out of nothing at all?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46sKeycH3bE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tznxK3etagE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMcOJ2dckzE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKyth_yoJBc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bds92P1wkZU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXaiu8rYRSU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD80iDlKc5Q" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So belief in God is a proper rational position to have because whatever we attribute our origin to has to be attributed with Godly attributes so it is a case labelling something one way or the other but there is no real difference in actual purpose of ultimate reality.

Likewise proper position to have is belief in origin of revelation of God because that is the only rational position that makes sense of all that exists. However the message of God has to be rational or it cannot make any sense of all that exists.

regards and all the best.

frankie
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by frankie »

Mughal:

Here is my last comment, to which you have not responded.

Do you agree that Mohammed was in obedience to the Quran when he used violence to spread Islam?

"You have conveniently avoided commenting on the hadiths which show how Mohammed spread Islam.

The question you need to answer is, was Mohammed obeying the Quran when he used violence to force Non combatants to accept Islam?

The answer you must give is yes he was, which immediate casts Mohammed as a false prophet, who are deceivers, and the Bible tells us anyone who deceives is not on the side of the Bible God, but on the side who opposes the Bible God, who is Satan.

The very Bible prophets Mohammed aligned himself with, did not use physical combat to bring their listeners to faith in God, as human weapons are totally useless against spiritual evil.

True religion is based upon the human inner conflict between the spiritual forces of evil, taught by Jesus and all Bible prophets, but Mohammed turned this inner spiritual battle into physical combat between believers in Allah and those who do not believe in Allah.

Kufr alone is the reason for violence against a person; if they are not a Muslim then they must be fought against, until they become one.

The Quran commands it, and Mohammed obeyed the Quran, putting all those who follow both, in direct opposition to the very God Mohammed claimed to be a prophet, which in turn puts them in league with Satan.

The equation could not be simpler".

Mughal
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Mughal »

Hombre wrote:dear mughal
I do hope you agree with us that, the only genuine study of any book, is when is made by unbiased scholars, whom - for most part, set aside their personal biases & prejudices and with use of logic they reach their conclusion to which we agree upon.

You see!, you claim that current version of quran is the "original version recited by Muhammad". It can not possibly be true for following reasons.
By time the final version of Quran was written, it went through 7 layers of communications & 80 years after Muhammad death.
.
1. Allah (Recited only once)
2. Angle Gabriel. (Recited only once)
3. Muhammad. (Recited only once)
4. Scribes. (Some wrote them down while others memorized them by heart.
Assume average length of each generation is around 20-25 years)
5. Pass on to 1st generation
6. Pass to 2nd generation
7. Pass to 3rd generation
8. Quran written in final form.

Are we to believe that each word & sentence of a manuscript containing 77600 word, 6650 paragraphs & 114 chapters. had survived 80 year going through 7 stations in tact?

If Quran was altered by one of Muhammad's own scribes (Abdullah ibn Sa'ad bin Sarh) while he was alive and dictating - what make anyone sure that, subsequent scribes did not inject their own words - when Muhammad was long gone.

Finally, (I know this question was asked), being an illiterate man, how Muhammad could proof read what his scribes were writing to make sure indeed, they follow his revelation verbatim.

It just does not make sense - as pure & simple as it is.
Dear hombre, greetings and hope you are fine.

As for me, I have my own explanation of things about the quran and deen of islam which people should read through and improve upon. I see no sense in idea of Godless existence therefore in my view atheism means nothing at all. It is senseless idea. Likewise to me idea of God incarnation and miracles is equally nonsense upon which all religions are based.

My problem with atheists is, they do not bother with study of alleged God sent scriptures as they should. They simply argue against nonsense of mullahs and try to win debates which is not the right way of considering the issue of God, creation and revelation.

Likewise my issue with mullahs is, God is not what they assume God to be nor his revealed message means what mullahs are trying to shove down the throats of people. This is why I have my own ideas about things rather than following nonsense of philosophers, scientists and mullahs etc. This is why it will be silly for anyone to tell me I am biased. I have looked at many things from many different aspects about the quran and deen of islam during my life time and have reached a stage where at to me the quran makes perfect sense. I have explained things in that context for others to reach their own conclusions. I am reasonably sure people will start turning to the quran and deen of islam as time goes on and the truth about the quran becomes more and more obvious to them due to education as it takes roots.

My main point is, the quran can never be discredit on basis of other sources. The video links I posted explain that in detail. The quran was passed down generations by the messenger of God both in written and memorised forms. When we have a perfect explanation about something why should we take the wrong ones? In my view the quran is the only book in the world that has perfect explanation for its existence. This is why I do not think people have any choice other than living by a way of life advised by the quran because that way of life is supposed to lead humanity to blissful, dignified and secure existence in this world and on that basis in hereafter. For so long as people will fail to take the quran seriously things will remain as they have been for mankind ie not as good as they could be. Our main concern should be proper understanding of the message of God and its faithful following if we do want to have a united, peaceful, progressive and prosperous life in this world and in hereafter.

regards and all the best.

Mughal
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Mughal »

frankie wrote:Mughal:

Here is my last comment, to which you have not responded.

Do you agree that Mohammed was in obedience to the Quran when he used violence to spread Islam?

"You have conveniently avoided commenting on the hadiths which show how Mohammed spread Islam.

The question you need to answer is, was Mohammed obeying the Quran when he used violence to force Non combatants to accept Islam?

The answer you must give is yes he was, which immediate casts Mohammed as a false prophet, who are deceivers, and the Bible tells us anyone who deceives is not on the side of the Bible God, but on the side who opposes the Bible God, who is Satan.

The very Bible prophets Mohammed aligned himself with, did not use physical combat to bring their listeners to faith in God, as human weapons are totally useless against spiritual evil.

True religion is based upon the human inner conflict between the spiritual forces of evil, taught by Jesus and all Bible prophets, but Mohammed turned this inner spiritual battle into physical combat between believers in Allah and those who do not believe in Allah.

Kufr alone is the reason for violence against a person; if they are not a Muslim then they must be fought against, until they become one.

The Quran commands it, and Mohammed obeyed the Quran, putting all those who follow both, in direct opposition to the very God Mohammed claimed to be a prophet, which in turn puts them in league with Satan.

The equation could not be simpler".

Dear frankie, you are failing or are not even trying to understand my position regarding the quran and deen of islam. I do not accept personality cultism. In my view it is God, his creation and revelation that is basis not any particular person. Everything that exists is supposed to serves will and purpose of God alone.

Muhammad did what he was sent by God to do and what he did is stated in the quran and approved by God but what people attribute to him is good if it is same as told in the quran otherwise made up falsehood which was invented in his name in order to discredit him or to justify wrongs done by others. It is therefore wrong for you to dwell upon something that makes no sense in light of the quran in its proper context.

I do not accept existence of angels or satan or demons etc because there is no basis for that in the quran. People have been inventing things and giving them names. My understanding of the quranic text is very different from yours and many others. If one reads my explanation of the quranic text one will see where I differ and where I agree with rest of people. I do not accept the idea that messengers of God do anything wrong deliberately or dwell on wrong doings.

Unless people try to understand my stand point, they cannot be right in arguing with me over the quran or deen of islam. To understand my point of view one has to go through my explanation about the message of the quran.

regards and all the best

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manfred
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by manfred »

Everything that exists is supposed to serves will and purpose of God alone.
Please explain the the divine purpose of:
a) hair on a man's butt.
b) nipples for men
c) Donald Trump
d) malaria
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

frankie
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by frankie »

Mughal wrote:
frankie wrote:Mughal:

Here is my last comment, to which you have not responded.

Do you agree that Mohammed was in obedience to the Quran when he used violence to spread Islam?

"You have conveniently avoided commenting on the hadiths which show how Mohammed spread Islam.

The question you need to answer is, was Mohammed obeying the Quran when he used violence to force Non combatants to accept Islam?

The answer you must give is yes he was, which immediate casts Mohammed as a false prophet, who are deceivers, and the Bible tells us anyone who deceives is not on the side of the Bible God, but on the side who opposes the Bible God, who is Satan.

The very Bible prophets Mohammed aligned himself with, did not use physical combat to bring their listeners to faith in God, as human weapons are totally useless against spiritual evil.

True religion is based upon the human inner conflict between the spiritual forces of evil, taught by Jesus and all Bible prophets, but Mohammed turned this inner spiritual battle into physical combat between believers in Allah and those who do not believe in Allah.

Kufr alone is the reason for violence against a person; if they are not a Muslim then they must be fought against, until they become one.

The Quran commands it, and Mohammed obeyed the Quran, putting all those who follow both, in direct opposition to the very God Mohammed claimed to be a prophet, which in turn puts them in league with Satan.

The equation could not be simpler".

Dear frankie, you are failing or are not even trying to understand my position regarding the quran and deen of islam. I do not accept personality cultism. In my view it is God, his creation and revelation that is basis not any particular person. Everything that exists is supposed to serves will and purpose of God alone.

Muhammad did what he was sent by God to do and what he did is stated in the quran and approved by God but what people attribute to him is good if it is same as told in the quran otherwise made up falsehood which was invented in his name in order to discredit him or to justify wrongs done by others. It is therefore wrong for you to dwell upon something that makes no sense in light of the quran in its proper context.

I do not accept existence of angels or satan or demons etc because there is no basis for that in the quran. People have been inventing things and giving them names. My understanding of the quranic text is very different from yours and many others. If one reads my explanation of the quranic text one will see where I differ and where I agree with rest of people. I do not accept the idea that messengers of God do anything wrong deliberately or dwell on wrong doings.

Unless people try to understand my stand point, they cannot be right in arguing with me over the quran or deen of islam. To understand my point of view one has to go through my explanation about the message of the quran.

regards and all the best

Mughal:
Muhammad did what he was sent by God to do and what he did is stated in the quran
Please give the evidence for this.

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Hombre
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Hombre »

Mughal wrote:Dear hombre, greetings and hope you are fine.

As for me, I have my own explanation of things about the quran and deen of islam which people should read through and improve upon. I see no sense in idea of Godless existence therefore in my view atheism means nothing at all. It is senseless idea. Likewise to me idea of God incarnation and miracles is equally nonsense upon which all religions are based.

My problem with atheists is, they do not bother with study of alleged God sent scriptures as they should. They simply argue against nonsense of mullahs and try to win debates which is not the right way of considering the issue of God, creation and revelation.

Likewise my issue with mullahs is, God is not what they assume God to be nor his revealed message means what mullahs are trying to shove down the throats of people. This is why I have my own ideas about things rather than following nonsense of philosophers, scientists and mullahs etc. This is why it will be silly for anyone to tell me I am biased. I have looked at many things from many different aspects about the quran and deen of islam during my life time and have reached a stage where at to me the quran makes perfect sense. I have explained things in that context for others to reach their own conclusions. I am reasonably sure people will start turning to the quran and deen of islam as time goes on and the truth about the quran becomes more and more obvious to them due to education as it takes roots.

My main point is, the quran can never be discredit on basis of other sources. The video links I posted explain that in detail. The quran was passed down generations by the messenger of God both in written and memorised forms. When we have a perfect explanation about something why should we take the wrong ones? In my view the quran is the only book in the world that has perfect explanation for its existence. This is why I do not think people have any choice other than living by a way of life advised by the quran because that way of life is supposed to lead humanity to blissful, dignified and secure existence in this world and on that basis in hereafter. For so long as people will fail to take the quran seriously things will remain as they have been for mankind ie not as good as they could be. Our main concern should be proper understanding of the message of God and its faithful following if we do want to have a united, peaceful, progressive and prosperous life in this world and in hereafter.

regards and all the best.
Hold your horses my friend. I was not talking about "atheists" nor "Mullahs" My question was simple.
How can we be sure that a 77600 words document recited by one illiterate man, and memorized by others can be preserved word-for-word 80 years later.

As franki and others had pointed out. Muhammad is known to have personally killed or ordered the killing of other human being - yet, you still maintain he was flawless. How can you say that?.

Finally. You claim yourself not being a "cultist one" - yet, with your blind obedience of Quran & Muhammad you exhibit exactly that - a cultish belief in a book which has been demonstrated to have many errors and flaws in it.

Mughal
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Mughal »

manfred wrote:
Everything that exists is supposed to serves will and purpose of God alone.
Please explain the the divine purpose of:
a) hair on a man's butt.
b) nipples for men
c) Donald Trump
d) malaria
Dear manfred, God has created people to find out things for themselves in light of his guidance. The problem is people have not yet realised what guidance from God actually means. They think God is supposed to tell them all there is to know about everything so that they have nothing to learn and do. This is not the purpose of divine guidance. If this had been purpose of God for creation of mankind then people will have been created fully programmed like robots to carry out commands or execute the installed program like inbuilt software in a computer.

Your questions are genuine even if you meant to poke fun and one day they will be answered by someone who will come to know about these things. Humanity is gaining knowledge and becoming more and more knowledgeable about things. God has created people to gain knowledge in two ways ie through study of his creation by interacting with it directly and via his revelations.

regards and all the best.

Mughal
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Mughal »

frankie wrote:
Mughal wrote:
frankie wrote:Mughal:

Here is my last comment, to which you have not responded.

Do you agree that Mohammed was in obedience to the Quran when he used violence to spread Islam?

"You have conveniently avoided commenting on the hadiths which show how Mohammed spread Islam.

The question you need to answer is, was Mohammed obeying the Quran when he used violence to force Non combatants to accept Islam?

The answer you must give is yes he was, which immediate casts Mohammed as a false prophet, who are deceivers, and the Bible tells us anyone who deceives is not on the side of the Bible God, but on the side who opposes the Bible God, who is Satan.

The very Bible prophets Mohammed aligned himself with, did not use physical combat to bring their listeners to faith in God, as human weapons are totally useless against spiritual evil.

True religion is based upon the human inner conflict between the spiritual forces of evil, taught by Jesus and all Bible prophets, but Mohammed turned this inner spiritual battle into physical combat between believers in Allah and those who do not believe in Allah.

Kufr alone is the reason for violence against a person; if they are not a Muslim then they must be fought against, until they become one.

The Quran commands it, and Mohammed obeyed the Quran, putting all those who follow both, in direct opposition to the very God Mohammed claimed to be a prophet, which in turn puts them in league with Satan.

The equation could not be simpler".

Dear frankie, you are failing or are not even trying to understand my position regarding the quran and deen of islam. I do not accept personality cultism. In my view it is God, his creation and revelation that is basis not any particular person. Everything that exists is supposed to serves will and purpose of God alone.

Muhammad did what he was sent by God to do and what he did is stated in the quran and approved by God but what people attribute to him is good if it is same as told in the quran otherwise made up falsehood which was invented in his name in order to discredit him or to justify wrongs done by others. It is therefore wrong for you to dwell upon something that makes no sense in light of the quran in its proper context.

I do not accept existence of angels or satan or demons etc because there is no basis for that in the quran. People have been inventing things and giving them names. My understanding of the quranic text is very different from yours and many others. If one reads my explanation of the quranic text one will see where I differ and where I agree with rest of people. I do not accept the idea that messengers of God do anything wrong deliberately or dwell on wrong doings.

Unless people try to understand my stand point, they cannot be right in arguing with me over the quran or deen of islam. To understand my point of view one has to go through my explanation about the message of the quran.

regards and all the best

Mughal:
Muhammad did what he was sent by God to do and what he did is stated in the quran
Please give the evidence for this.
Dear frankie, please read the quran as explained by me and see what commandments were given to messengers of God by God. They carried them out according to the best of their abilities. The first thing they all did was spread the message of God amongst people they were sent to as far as they could. If people accepted their messages then they created communities out them based upon messages of God and those communities lived by rule of law of God instead of their self created laws based upon their personal vested interests. This is why they brought about exemplary complementary communities. One has to read story of prophet adam or noah or abraham etc etc.

The quran is very different in its information structure than any other holy book of any religion. One has to read the quran thoroughly to realise how its information is to be understood. The main things in the quran are concept of an ummah= a complementary human society and a kingdom based upon guidance of God. This is why the quran promises blissful, dignified and secure existence for humanity in this life as well as in hereafter. Unless people unite for peaceful, progressive and prosperous existence they can never have such a life ever. This is why deen of islam is neither secularism nor religion because these two ways of life can never deliver to mankind the kind of life the quran promises to humanity. To compare deen of islam to any other way of life is neither here nor there. It is a unique way of life which has no comparison. It is a self regulation based way of life whereby all try their best to live by a God set standard as individuals for ensuring well being of each other as a complementary society. It is going to take time for people to educate themselves to that level of understanding of word of God.

regards and all the best.

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pr126
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by pr126 »

It is going to take time for people to educate themselves to that level of understanding of word of God.
Really? Maybe another 14 centuries?

But the Quran claims to be easily understood. (54:17, 54:22, 54:32, 54:40)
Islam: an idea to kill and die for.

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manfred
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by manfred »

Mughal your response contradicts itself.

If you say that EVERYTHING has a divine purpose, you must be be able to name the purpose of any specific thing anyone care to mention.

Now you say everything has a divine purpose, but some of these we don't know. (In fact most if not all....) If that is true, then we cannot possibly say that everything has a divine purpose.

Then all you can say in honesty is that it is your BELIEF that all things have a divine purpose.

In fact, such a general statement of belief has theological problems: what is the purpose of cancer? Of cot death? Are you trying to say that some evil deity sends these things to torment people?

This issue is a complex question, certainly well beyond the naive ramblings of the Qur'an...
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Mughal
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Mughal »

Hombre wrote:
Mughal wrote:Dear hombre, greetings and hope you are fine.

As for me, I have my own explanation of things about the quran and deen of islam which people should read through and improve upon. I see no sense in idea of Godless existence therefore in my view atheism means nothing at all. It is senseless idea. Likewise to me idea of God incarnation and miracles is equally nonsense upon which all religions are based.

My problem with atheists is, they do not bother with study of alleged God sent scriptures as they should. They simply argue against nonsense of mullahs and try to win debates which is not the right way of considering the issue of God, creation and revelation.

Likewise my issue with mullahs is, God is not what they assume God to be nor his revealed message means what mullahs are trying to shove down the throats of people. This is why I have my own ideas about things rather than following nonsense of philosophers, scientists and mullahs etc. This is why it will be silly for anyone to tell me I am biased. I have looked at many things from many different aspects about the quran and deen of islam during my life time and have reached a stage where at to me the quran makes perfect sense. I have explained things in that context for others to reach their own conclusions. I am reasonably sure people will start turning to the quran and deen of islam as time goes on and the truth about the quran becomes more and more obvious to them due to education as it takes roots.

My main point is, the quran can never be discredit on basis of other sources. The video links I posted explain that in detail. The quran was passed down generations by the messenger of God both in written and memorised forms. When we have a perfect explanation about something why should we take the wrong ones? In my view the quran is the only book in the world that has perfect explanation for its existence. This is why I do not think people have any choice other than living by a way of life advised by the quran because that way of life is supposed to lead humanity to blissful, dignified and secure existence in this world and on that basis in hereafter. For so long as people will fail to take the quran seriously things will remain as they have been for mankind ie not as good as they could be. Our main concern should be proper understanding of the message of God and its faithful following if we do want to have a united, peaceful, progressive and prosperous life in this world and in hereafter.

regards and all the best.
Hold your horses my friend. I was not talking about "atheists" nor "Mullahs" My question was simple.
How can we be sure that a 77600 words document recited by one illiterate man, and memorized by others can be preserved word-for-word 80 years later.

As franki and others had pointed out. Muhammad is known to have personally killed or ordered the killing of other human being - yet, you still maintain he was flawless. How can you say that?.

Finally. You claim yourself not being a "cultist one" - yet, with your blind obedience of Quran & Muhammad you exhibit exactly that - a cultish belief in a book which has been demonstrated to have many errors and flaws in it.
Dear hombre, it was necessary to explain the context in which the quran should be understood. Anyone who is asking questions about the quran must first realise whether one is questioning mullahs' understanding of the quran or the quran as it is supposed to be understood. This can save us from wasting time in arguing over baseless things senselessly.

The quran was passed on to people by the messenger of God both in written and memorised forms that is why the quranic text was copied from the copies provided by the prophet. Had that not been the case we ought to end up with countless variations in copies of the quran of unexplainable nature. All this I have already explained in my work on the quran. The messenger of God was not an illiterate person as believed by mullahs rather he was highly educated and knowledgeable person according to his time and place that is why God chose him as his messenger. If anyone thinks God chooses dumb people for his mission then that person has wrong estimates about abilities of God. God chose the best people from among mankind who suited best for his missionary work at the time in a place.

I am not cultist because I have my own explanation of things about the quran and deen of islam which makes better sense. I have yet to see anyone explain the quran and deen of islam yet better. I accepted the quran word of God because it is a rational book that fits the criterion for being a revealed book by God the best. As for muhammad killing people, I have explained such claims in their proper context already if one reads what I have posted already.

The main thing for us is to try to understand things in their proper context as a system or unit. It is all about we ourselves discovering the truth for ourselves. Others can only help us do so to a degree the rest is up to ourselves. Guidance of God does not mean all is explained for us by God in each and every respect. This is why I do accept errors in the copies of the quran because copies of the quran are made by human beings who are fallible. However those errors can be found out and corrected by people because just as people can make mistakes so they can correct them as well. God has placed huge potential in mankind which is becoming obvious with passing time and human development and progress.

I think divine guidance is more about self reflection as to what the actual truth may be rather than arguments for trying to win debates.

regards and all the best.

Mughal
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Mughal »

pr126 wrote:
It is going to take time for people to educate themselves to that level of understanding of word of God.
Really? Maybe another 14 centuries?

But the Quran claims to be easily understood. (54:17, 54:22, 54:32, 54:40)
Yes dear pr126, but only by those who have learned the needed knowledge for understanding it properly. People who are ignorant, illiterate, uneducated and unable to think properly cannot understand anything at all not just the quran. This is why the quran invites knowledgeable people to ponder over its information not illiterate ignorant people who are unable to think properly. You should have quoted those verses of the quran as well to get the full picture as to what the quran means by verses you have quoted. Anything is easy for a person who has the needed knowledge about it and anything is hard for a person who has no knowledge about something.

regards and all the best.

frankie
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by frankie »

Mughal:

the quran is very different in its information structure than any other holy book of any religion
But is should not be, because it purports to come from the same God of the Bible.

The Quran proves it does not come from the God of the Bible, it if did it would teach from the same premise, as did the Bible prophets including Jesus, who is allegedly a prophet of Islam.

All Bible prophets spoke in the name of the Bible God, whose commands rest on love of God, and love of all mankind regardless of faith.

The Quran does not teach from this premise, it teaches anyone who is not a Muslim must be violently subjugated until he becomes a Muslim.

The kind of world you believe the Quran talks about does not exist, because the Quran proves itself to be a fraud, it advocates and condones the very things you abhor.
Unless people unite for peaceful, progressive and prosperous existence they can never have such a life ever
The Quran has verses within it which directly opposes your claims.

The kind of world you think the Quran purposes does not exist, it is a figment of your imagination,something which you want the Quran to be, but in reality is not.

The kind of world you want to live in is more akin to the teachings of Jesus, where all mankind are treated equal with love and respect, when no one has to be violently subjugated for their faith, and can live in peace with their fellow man.

You are obviously following the wrong book, with the wrong prophet, you had better look elsewhere for your imaginary utopia, because the one you hope to find in the Quran does not, and will never exist.

Mughal
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Mughal »

manfred wrote:Mughal your response contradicts itself.

If you say that EVERYTHING has a divine purpose, you must be be able to name the purpose of any specific thing anyone care to mention.

Now you say everything has a divine purpose, but some of these we don't know. (In fact most if not all....) If that is true, then we cannot possibly say that everything has a divine purpose.

Then all you can say in honesty is that it is your BELIEF that all things have a divine purpose.

In fact, such a general statement of belief has theological problems: what is the purpose of cancer? Of cot death? Are you trying to say that some evil deity sends these things to torment people?

This issue is a complex question, certainly well beyond the naive ramblings of the Qur'an...

Dear manfred, everything has a divine purpose because the universe is a single working unit made of all its parts regardless large or small. God knows what he has created and why but for us human beings it is going to take time to come to know about it but we will come to know about it in due time. We do not know why a lot of thing happen or are there but gradually we are finding out. Likewise we will find out what we do not know yet as world and humanity is not going to end tomorrow. Don't forget we start our lives not knowing anything at all and then due to our learning we come to know things we did not know anything about.

I did not know what verses of the quran meant at all but since I started to learn the quran I came to know a lot of things from the quran so anyone who will try harder will come to know things yet better. Just as fire has beneficial and harmful uses for humanity so cancer must also have some positive purposes as well. Are we not learning new thing due to cancer? Our misdeeds also help us learn from our mistakes to turn ourselves positive or to do better. In fact we need to see all things in grand scheme of things to get the full picture.

regards and all the best.

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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by manfred »

Mughal if you cannot say what the purpose of something is, it in nonsensical to say that EVERYTHING has a purpose, except perhaps as a statement of personal, unjustifiable belief.

A to the the universe being a "single working unit", astronomers and mathematicians will not agree. And even if it where, it does not prove that everything has a purpose.
And biologist will tell you that things evolve AT RANDOM and occasionally FIND a purpose, often not.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Fernando »

Mughal wrote:The quran was passed on to people by the messenger of God both in written and memorised forms that is why the quranic text was copied from the copies provided by the prophet. Had that not been the case we ought to end up with countless variations in copies of the quran of unexplainable nature.
We might still have countless versions, had not Uthman burnt them!
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

Mughal
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Mughal »

frankie wrote:Mughal:

the quran is very different in its information structure than any other holy book of any religion
But is should not be, because it purports to come from the same God of the Bible.

The Quran proves it does not come from the God of the Bible, it if did it would teach from the same premise, as did the Bible prophets including Jesus, who is allegedly a prophet of Islam.

All Bible prophets spoke in the name of the Bible God, whose commands rest on love of God, and love of all mankind regardless of faith.

The Quran does not teach from this premise, it teaches anyone who is not a Muslim must be violently subjugated until he becomes a Muslim.

The kind of world you believe the Quran talks about does not exist, because the Quran proves itself to be a fraud, it advocates and condones the very things you abhor.
Unless people unite for peaceful, progressive and prosperous existence they can never have such a life ever
The Quran has verses within it which directly opposes your claims.

The kind of world you think the Quran purposes does not exist, it is a figment of your imagination,something which you want the Quran to be, but in reality is not.

The kind of world you want to live in is more akin to the teachings of Jesus, where all mankind are treated equal with love and respect, when no one has to be violently subjugated for their faith, and can live in peace with their fellow man.

You are obviously following the wrong book, with the wrong prophet, you had better look elsewhere for your imaginary utopia, because the one you hope to find in the Quran does not, and will never exist.
Dear frankie, there is no need for us to put the quran and the bible against each other as the first thing. The first thing for us to do is to justify each in its own proper context. If we succeed in doing that only then we can put one book against the other.

If you want to discuss bible then first you need to prove the bible can be interpreted rationally as word of God. Only rationally interpreted bible can be used to oppose the rationally interpreted quran.

If you believe in God incarnation or miracles then you can never interpret the bible rationally. So bible then fails to prove as revealed word of God. In that case the quran remains the only book revealed by God for this era. God revealed books before the quran were many of which only a few are named in the quran but bible as we have it today is not the revealed book of God. It is because its style, its text structure and its contents are not similar to the quran as I see the bible and the quran.

regards and all the best.

Mughal
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Mughal »

manfred wrote:Mughal if you cannot say what the purpose of something is, it in nonsensical to say that EVERYTHING has a purpose, except perhaps as a statement of personal, unjustifiable belief.

A to the the universe being a "single working unit", astronomers and mathematicians will not agree. And even if it where, it does not prove that everything has a purpose.
And biologist will tell you that things evolve AT RANDOM and occasionally FIND a purpose, often not.
Dear manfred, we cannot claim certainty about each and everything in every way no matter what. We can only go so far and that is it. All we can go on about is what is there and what is its best possible explanation we can have. In my view I have the best possible explanation of things and if anyone else comes up with an even better explanation then people should go for that.

When I say each and everything has a purpose, it means from point of view of its creator. For people to know that purpose will take time because that is how people come to know things when they work at them. I don't think anyone can disagree the universe is a working unit or system. It is because each and everything in the universe interacts with other things in the universe in some way. There is nothing of this universe independent of this universe. All things are bound by laws of nature in this universe as far as we can see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er9D00DXQQs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eKIjkk0NVY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83jOQuNSvrs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

regards and all the best

frankie
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by frankie »

Mughal wrote:
frankie wrote:Mughal:

the quran is very different in its information structure than any other holy book of any religion
But is should not be, because it purports to come from the same God of the Bible.

The Quran proves it does not come from the God of the Bible, it if did it would teach from the same premise, as did the Bible prophets including Jesus, who is allegedly a prophet of Islam.

All Bible prophets spoke in the name of the Bible God, whose commands rest on love of God, and love of all mankind regardless of faith.

The Quran does not teach from this premise, it teaches anyone who is not a Muslim must be violently subjugated until he becomes a Muslim.

The kind of world you believe the Quran talks about does not exist, because the Quran proves itself to be a fraud, it advocates and condones the very things you abhor.
Unless people unite for peaceful, progressive and prosperous existence they can never have such a life ever
The Quran has verses within it which directly opposes your claims.

The kind of world you think the Quran purposes does not exist, it is a figment of your imagination,something which you want the Quran to be, but in reality is not.

The kind of world you want to live in is more akin to the teachings of Jesus, where all mankind are treated equal with love and respect, when no one has to be violently subjugated for their faith, and can live in peace with their fellow man.

You are obviously following the wrong book, with the wrong prophet, you had better look elsewhere for your imaginary utopia, because the one you hope to find in the Quran does not, and will never exist.
Dear frankie, there is no need for us to put the quran and the bible against each other as the first thing. The first thing for us to do is to justify each in its own proper context. If we succeed in doing that only then we can put one book against the other.

If you want to discuss bible then first you need to prove the bible can be interpreted rationally as word of God. Only rationally interpreted bible can be used to oppose the rationally interpreted quran.

If you believe in God incarnation or miracles then you can never interpret the bible rationally. So bible then fails to prove as revealed word of God. In that case the quran remains the only book revealed by God for this era. God revealed books before the quran were many of which only a few are named in the quran but bible as we have it today is not the revealed book of God. It is because its style, its text structure and its contents are not similar to the quran as I see the bible and the quran.

regards and all the best.

Mughal:
God revealed books before the quran were many of which only a few are named in the quran but bible as we have it today is not the revealed book of God.
If you cannot get the basics right about a given subject Mughal, what follows will have no basis in fact, which you are proving here.

No books were "revealed" by God to anyone, the O.T. books in the Bible were written by various people, on a variety of subjects, at different parts of history.
The N.T.includes the written accounts of Jesus's ministry, death and resurrection, together with the letters of several of His followers to their countrymen, with the final book named Revelation.

The Quran claims the Injeel was revealed to Jesus, which is wrong, the Injeel,Gospel in English meaning Good News, is the ministry of Jesus which was WRITTEN down AFTER His resurrection, and then sent to other parts of the world with the first Christians, the message of which has never changed, all Christians today still believe what the first Christians believed, which is Jesus the Messiah, died and rose again in accordance with the scriptures, to atone for mans sin of disobedience.

This is outright rejected by the Quran, which takes great pains in getting this across, to the point of claiming the Bible is corrupted, even though the Quran claims to confirm the Bible,i.e the previous scriptures,Gospel and Torah,which to anyone with any sense cannot not ring true, especially when the Quran can give no evidence for any corruption having taken place for any of the books it confirms as truth, guidance and light!!

The Quran proves it is a book for imbiciles,anyone who thinks this book can come from a divine being, need to have serious treatment for cognitive dissonance.

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