It May Non-Muslim or Muslim of Group that May Not True,

Prove Islam is from God, why it is the 'One True Religion'.
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Garudaman
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It May Non-Muslim or Muslim of Group that May Not True,

Post by Garudaman »

...As Long Not Lie to Yourself

based on this verses person only held to account based on what he knew and believed :

QS. 17:36. And do not pursue that of which you have no knowledge. Indeed, the hearing, the sight and the heart - about all those [one] will be questioned.

so then, what is meant "Islam" in the following verses :

QS. 3:19. Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam. And those who were given the Scripture did not differ except after knowledge had come to them - out of jealous animosity between themselves. And whoever disbelieves in the verses of Allah , then indeed, Allah is swift in [taking] account.

QS. 3:83. So is it other than the religion of Allah they desire, while to Him have submitted [all] those within the heavens and earth, willingly or by compulsion, and to Him they will be returned?

QS. 3:85. And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.


& the answer can be seen clearly on the following verse :

QS. 17:15. Whoever is guided is only guided for [the benefit of] his soul. And whoever errs only errs against it. And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And never would We punish until We sent a messenger.

so what is meant "Islam" on there is the true Islam, the Islam that known and believed as the truth, Islam which is believed as the religion of God (what God regulated to humans), the problem is not everyone had access to Islam as Islam at the time & place, when & where Islam was announced by Messenger of God, because that God just demanded person to follow "religion" as what he knew and believed :

QS. 2:62. Indeed, those who believed [in Prophet Muhammad] and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

QS. 2:286. Allah does not charge a soul except [with that within] its capacity. It will have [the consequence of] what [good] it has gained, and it will bear [the consequence of] what [evil] it has earned. "Our Lord, do not impose blame upon us if we have forgotten or erred. Our Lord, and lay not upon us a burden like that which You laid upon those before us. Our Lord, and burden us not with that which we have no ability to bear. And pardon us; and forgive us; and have mercy upon us. You are our protector, so give us victory over the disbelieving people."

QS. 6:152. And do not approach the orphan's property except in a way that is best until he reaches maturity. And give full measure and weight in justice. We do not charge any soul except [with that within] its capacity. And when you testify, be just, even if [it concerns] a near relative. And the covenant of Allah fulfill. This has He instructed you that you may remember.

QS. 7:42. But those who believed and did righteous deeds - We charge no soul except [within] its capacity. Those are the companions of Paradise; they will abide therein eternally.

QS. 65:7. Let a man of wealth spend from his wealth, and he whose provision is restricted - let him spend from what Allah has given him. Allah does not charge a soul except [according to] what He has given it. Allah will bring about, after hardship, ease.

QS. 5:48. And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.

QS. 5:69. Indeed, those who have believed [in Prophet Muhammad] and those who were Jews or Sabeans or Christians - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.


;)

NB : blue + red = violet
Last edited by Garudaman on Sat Dec 24, 2016 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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manfred
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Re: It May Non-Muslim or Muslim of Group that May Not True,

Post by manfred »

So is it other than the religion of Allah they desire, while to Him have submitted [all] those within the heavens and earth, willingly or by compulsion, and to Him they will be returned? 3:83

Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him." 3:84

And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers. 3:85
Hi,

I am not sure exactly what you are trying to tell us. But one of your verses caught my eye, so I read around it a bit, and I wonder if you can explain it some more.

Verse 83 explicitly allows forced conversion to Islam. Do you think it is either morally acceptable or even productive to forcefully convert someone to Islam?

About verse 84, what was revealed to Ishmael, and where is his text?

So, according to verse 85, if someone is crystal clear and 100% sure Islam is false, he should STILL accept it? Does that make sense?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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Garudaman
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Re: It May Non-Muslim or Muslim of Group that May Not True,

Post by Garudaman »

it (QS. 3:83) reads like this, manfred :

1. So is it other than the religion of Allah, they desire?
2. while/if to Him/God have submitted [all] those within the skies and earth, willingly or by compulsion
3. and while/if to Him/God they will be returned
manfred wrote:About verse 84, what was revealed to Ishmael, and where is his text?
even if his text can't be found, his teaching trail is still can be found, such the ritual walk around house of God & similarity in pronunciation of God (you know, it seems the Arab Pagan teachings, is distortion of the Ismail teachings)!

;)

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Garudaman
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Re: It May Non-Muslim or Muslim of Group that May Not True,

Post by Garudaman »

so, kafir is who deny what he/she believe, thus the exact translation of kafir actually is denier not dis/unbeliever, since dis/unbelieve because don't know can't considered kafir! ;)

frankie
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Re: It May Non-Muslim or Muslim of Group that May Not True,

Post by frankie »

Garudaman wrote:so, kafir is who deny what he/she believe, thus the exact translation of kafir actually is denier not dis/unbeliever, since dis/unbelieve because don't know can't considered kafir! ;)
Garudaman:

If what you say is true then could you explain what the Quran means when it says to Muslims they should "fight unbelievers "to bring them into submission to Allahs rules, shown in just four of many repetitive Quranic commands?

8.38
Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them).

8.39
And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

9.29
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

9.123

O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

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Garudaman
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Re: It May Non-Muslim or Muslim of Group that May Not True,

Post by Garudaman »

frankie wrote:
Garudaman wrote:so, kafir is who deny what he/she believe, thus the exact translation of kafir actually is denier not dis/unbeliever, since dis/unbelieve because don't know can't considered kafir! ;)
Garudaman:

If what you say is true then could you explain what the Quran means when it says to Muslims they should "fight unbelievers "to bring them into submission to Allahs rules, shown in just four of many repetitive Quranic commands?

8.38
Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them).

8.39
And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

9.29
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

9.123

O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.
they're called kafir/deniers because even in their standards, fight without right is wrong!

QS. 4:75. And what is [the matter] with you that not you fight in the cause of Allah and [for] the oppressed among men, women, and children who say, "Our Lord, take us out of this city of oppressive people and appoint for us from Yourself a protector and appoint for us from Yourself a helper?"

QS. 8:34. But why should Allah not punish them while they obstruct [people] from al-Masjid al- Haram[/size] and they were not [fit to be] its guardians? Its [true] guardians are not but the righteous, but most of them do not know.

QS. 9:8-9. How [can there be a treaty] while, if they gain dominance over you, they do not observe concerning you any pact of kinship or covenant of protection? They satisfy you with their mouths, but their hearts refuse [compliance], and most of them are defiantly disobedient. They have exchanged the signs of Allah for a small price and averted [people] from His way. Indeed, it was evil that they were doing.

QS. 9:13. Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers.

QS. 22:39-40. Permission [to fight] has been given to those who are being fought, because they were wronged. And indeed, Allah is competent to give them victory. [They are] those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, "Our Lord is Allah ." And were it not that Allah checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of Allah is much mentioned. And Allah will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might.


;)

frankie
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Re: It May Non-Muslim or Muslim of Group that May Not True,

Post by frankie »

Garudaman wrote:
frankie wrote:
Garudaman wrote:so, kafir is who deny what he/she believe, thus the exact translation of kafir actually is denier not dis/unbeliever, since dis/unbelieve because don't know can't considered kafir! ;)
Garudaman:

If what you say is true then could you explain what the Quran means when it says to Muslims they should "fight unbelievers "to bring them into submission to Allahs rules, shown in just four of many repetitive Quranic commands?

8.38
Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them).

8.39
And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

9.29
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

9.123

O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.
they're called kafir/deniers because even in their standards, fight without right is wrong!

QS. 4:75. And what is [the matter] with you that not you fight in the cause of Allah and [for] the oppressed among men, women, and children who say, "Our Lord, take us out of this city of oppressive people and appoint for us from Yourself a protector and appoint for us from Yourself a helper?"

QS. 8:34. But why should Allah not punish them while they obstruct [people] from al-Masjid al- Haram[/size] and they were not [fit to be] its guardians? Its [true] guardians are not but the righteous, but most of them do not know.

QS. 9:8-9. How [can there be a treaty] while, if they gain dominance over you, they do not observe concerning you any pact of kinship or covenant of protection? They satisfy you with their mouths, but their hearts refuse [compliance], and most of them are defiantly disobedient. They have exchanged the signs of Allah for a small price and averted [people] from His way. Indeed, it was evil that they were doing.

QS. 9:13. Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers.

QS. 22:39-40. Permission [to fight] has been given to those who are being fought, because they were wronged. And indeed, Allah is competent to give them victory. [They are] those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, "Our Lord is Allah ." And were it not that Allah checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of Allah is much mentioned. And Allah will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might.


;)
Garudaman:

By quoting verses defending the fighting verses, you prove the Quran to be contradictory and inconsistent, which shows the author of such work cannot be divine, and therefore cannot be trusted.

surah 9.29 specifically says to "fight those who do not believe in Allah" because of what they believe, as the next verse tells you:

9.30
The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

It can be clearly seen that Muslims are ordered to fight people conditional to what they believe, if they believe in Allah, leave them alone,if they do not, fight them until they do.

Your verses also show that Mohammed followed these conditional Quranic verses to the letter, as he is quoted as saying :

Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 065.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Musa : A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame
and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that
Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."


Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 196.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has
the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and
property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to
forgive him.)"

As a Muslim you are taught that all lands belong to Allah,and it is up to Muslims to "proclaim Islam over all religion" until such time Non Muslims submit to Allahs rules, either under duress or face death, just because they do not believe what Muslims believe.

If you want to disagree, then you have the problem of your prophet contravening all the verses you have quoted back to me, justifying any fighting mentioned in your holy book.

Mohammed did not "fight without right" the only reason he fought was because he had delusions of grandeur, to gain enough wealth to satisfy his lust for material gain, and sexual appetite. His quest for power, wealth and control over peoples minds and bodies continues to this day, as Muslims follow his example, with disastrous consequences visible throughout the world, death, destruction, chaos and abject misery, all the hallmarks of Mohammed's legacy to the world.

And you are taught to put your trust in a man like this?

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Re: It May Non-Muslim or Muslim of Group that May Not True,

Post by Centaur »

Hajj is a pagan ritual adopted by Mohammed
http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtop ... 21&t=15330
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sum
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Re: It May Non-Muslim or Muslim of Group that May Not True,

Post by sum »

Hello Garudaman

The verses that you quoted are simply words put into Allah`s mouth by Muhammad. Where is the evidence that so many people begged the muslims to come and save them from oppression? The greatest oppressors are the muslims!

sum

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Garudaman
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Re: It May Non-Muslim or Muslim of Group that May Not True,

Post by Garudaman »

frankie wrote:Garudaman:

By quoting verses defending the fighting verses, you prove the Quran to be contradictory and inconsistent, which shows the author of such work cannot be divine, and therefore cannot be trusted.

surah 9.29 specifically says to "fight those who do not believe in Allah" because of what they believe, as the next verse tells you:

9.30
The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

It can be clearly seen that Muslims are ordered to fight people conditional to what they believe, if they believe in Allah, leave them alone,if they do not, fight them until they do.
if they must be fought "until they do", then there will be no Jizya :

QS. 9:29. Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

so, verse 30 doesn't explain verse 29!
frankie wrote:Your verses also show that Mohammed followed these conditional Quranic verses to the letter, as he is quoted as saying :

Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 065.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Musa : A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame
and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that
Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."
fight in God's Cause = fight for & in the Truth!
frankie wrote:Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 196.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah 's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has
the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and
property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to
forgive him.)"
that hadith is about : http://www.iium.edu.my/deed/lawbase/fiq ... vol3a.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Abu Hurairah is reported to have said: "When Allah's Messenger, upon whom be peace, died and Abu Bakr succeeded him as caliph, some Arabs apostatized, causing Abu Bakr to declare war upon them. 'Umar said to him: 'Why must you fight these men?, especially when there is a ruling of the Prophet, upon whom be peace? 'I have been called to fight men until they say that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and whoever said it has saved his life and property from me except when a right is due in them, and his account will be with Allah.' Abu Bakr replied: 'By Allah! I will fight those who differentiate between salah and zakah because zakah is the due on property. By Allah! If they withheld even a young she-goat ('anaq) that they used to pay at the time of Allah's Messenger, upon whom be peace, I would fight them.' Then 'Umar said: 'By Allah! It was He who gave Abu Bakr the true knowledge to fight, and later I came to know that he was right.' "

;)

frankie
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Re: It May Non-Muslim or Muslim of Group that May Not True,

Post by frankie »

Garudaman wrote:
frankie wrote:Garudaman:

By quoting verses defending the fighting verses, you prove the Quran to be contradictory and inconsistent, which shows the author of such work cannot be divine, and therefore cannot be trusted.

surah 9.29 specifically says to "fight those who do not believe in Allah" because of what they believe, as the next verse tells you:

9.30
The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

It can be clearly seen that Muslims are ordered to fight people conditional to what they believe, if they believe in Allah, leave them alone,if they do not, fight them until they do.
if they must be fought "until they do", then there will be no Jizya :

QS. 9:29. Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

so, verse 30 doesn't explain verse 29!
frankie wrote:Your verses also show that Mohammed followed these conditional Quranic verses to the letter, as he is quoted as saying :

Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 065.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Musa : A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame
and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that
Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."
fight in God's Cause = fight for & in the Truth!
frankie wrote:Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 196.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah 's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has
the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and
property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to
forgive him.)"
that hadith is about : http://www.iium.edu.my/deed/lawbase/fiq ... vol3a.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Abu Hurairah is reported to have said: "When Allah's Messenger, upon whom be peace, died and Abu Bakr succeeded him as caliph, some Arabs apostatized, causing Abu Bakr to declare war upon them. 'Umar said to him: 'Why must you fight these men?, especially when there is a ruling of the Prophet, upon whom be peace? 'I have been called to fight men until they say that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and whoever said it has saved his life and property from me except when a right is due in them, and his account will be with Allah.' Abu Bakr replied: 'By Allah! I will fight those who differentiate between salah and zakah because zakah is the due on property. By Allah! If they withheld even a young she-goat ('anaq) that they used to pay at the time of Allah's Messenger, upon whom be peace, I would fight them.' Then 'Umar said: 'By Allah! It was He who gave Abu Bakr the true knowledge to fight, and later I came to know that he was right.' "

;)
Garudaman:

"fight in God's Cause = fight for & in the Truth!"

So did Mohammed break Allahs commands when he said fight to make Allahs word superior?

I was given to understand that Muslims are only allowed to fight in self defense,if they are attacked first by infidels.

But you, Mohammed and the Quran confirm it is o.k.to fight people just because they don't believe in Allah.

But then a friend of Mohammed contradicts his prophet and therefore Allah, even though his prophet told him to do otherwise to "fight people until they say non has the right to be worshipped but Allah"

What am I to believe, Islamic sources or mis information given by Muslims?

You know the answer.

Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 065.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Musa : A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame
and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that
Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."


9.111
Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

Why are you following teachings that command you to kill people just because they believe differently to you?

antineoETC
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Re: It May Non-Muslim or Muslim of Group that May Not True,

Post by antineoETC »

Garudaman wrote:so, kafir is who deny what he/she believe, thus the exact translation of kafir actually is denier not dis/unbeliever, since dis/unbelieve because don't know can't considered kafir! ;)
In other words a "Kafir" might actually believe in his heart but refuses to admit their belief to themselves or openly?
It is in the nature of wasp nests that some of their inhabitants are bound to sting someone. The closer you are to are to a wasp nest the more likely you are to get stung, sometimes fatally. Who would encourage wasps to establish a nest in their house?

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Garudaman
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Re: It May Non-Muslim or Muslim of Group that May Not True,

Post by Garudaman »

sum wrote:The verses that you quoted are simply words put into Allah`s mouth by Muhammad. Where is the evidence that so many people begged the muslims to come and save them from oppression?
the Quran is the evidence of Islam teaching, thus even there no one who begged protector/helper that's not the proof that Islam doesn't teach that! ;)

piscohot
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Re: It May Non-Muslim or Muslim of Group that May Not True,

Post by piscohot »

Garudaman wrote:
sum wrote:The verses that you quoted are simply words put into Allah`s mouth by Muhammad. Where is the evidence that so many people begged the muslims to come and save them from oppression?
the Quran is the evidence of Islam teaching, thus even there no one who begged protector/helper that's not the proof that Islam doesn't teach that! ;)
where in the quran does it say : go save a non muslim from oppression?
Quran miracle (16:69) : Bees eat ALL fruits
Quran miracle (27:18) : an ant SAID, "O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not."

frankie
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Re: It May Non-Muslim or Muslim of Group that May Not True,

Post by frankie »

frankie wrote:
Garudaman wrote:
frankie wrote:Garudaman:

By quoting verses defending the fighting verses, you prove the Quran to be contradictory and inconsistent, which shows the author of such work cannot be divine, and therefore cannot be trusted.

surah 9.29 specifically says to "fight those who do not believe in Allah" because of what they believe, as the next verse tells you:

9.30
The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

It can be clearly seen that Muslims are ordered to fight people conditional to what they believe, if they believe in Allah, leave them alone,if they do not, fight them until they do.
if they must be fought "until they do", then there will be no Jizya :

QS. 9:29. Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

so, verse 30 doesn't explain verse 29!
frankie wrote:Your verses also show that Mohammed followed these conditional Quranic verses to the letter, as he is quoted as saying :

Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 065.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Musa : A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame
and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that
Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."
fight in God's Cause = fight for & in the Truth!
frankie wrote:Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 196.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah 's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has
the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and
property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to
forgive him.)"
that hadith is about : http://www.iium.edu.my/deed/lawbase/fiq ... vol3a.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Abu Hurairah is reported to have said: "When Allah's Messenger, upon whom be peace, died and Abu Bakr succeeded him as caliph, some Arabs apostatized, causing Abu Bakr to declare war upon them. 'Umar said to him: 'Why must you fight these men?, especially when there is a ruling of the Prophet, upon whom be peace? 'I have been called to fight men until they say that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and whoever said it has saved his life and property from me except when a right is due in them, and his account will be with Allah.' Abu Bakr replied: 'By Allah! I will fight those who differentiate between salah and zakah because zakah is the due on property. By Allah! If they withheld even a young she-goat ('anaq) that they used to pay at the time of Allah's Messenger, upon whom be peace, I would fight them.' Then 'Umar said: 'By Allah! It was He who gave Abu Bakr the true knowledge to fight, and later I came to know that he was right.' "

;)
Garudaman:

"fight in God's Cause = fight for & in the Truth!"

So did Mohammed break Allahs commands when he said fight to make Allahs word superior?

I was given to understand that Muslims are only allowed to fight in self defense,if they are attacked first by infidels.

But you, Mohammed and the Quran confirm it is o.k.to fight people just because they don't believe in Allah.

But then a friend of Mohammed contradicts his prophet and therefore Allah, even though his prophet told him to do otherwise to "fight people until they say non has the right to be worshipped but Allah"

What am I to believe, Islamic sources or mis information given by Muslims?

You know the answer.

Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 065.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Musa : A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame
and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that
Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."


9.111
Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

Why are you following teachings that command you to kill people just because they believe differently to you?

Garudaman:
You said:

"fight in God's Cause = fight for & in the Truth!"

Why should people have to be fought against, violently subjugated and killed just because they do not believe in what Muslims believe?

User avatar
Garudaman
Posts: 1266
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:39 am

Re: It May Non-Muslim or Muslim of Group that May Not True,

Post by Garudaman »

frankie wrote:Garudaman:

"fight in God's Cause = fight for & in the Truth!"

So did Mohammed break Allahs commands when he said fight to make Allahs word superior?

I was given to understand that Muslims are only allowed to fight in self defense,if they are attacked first by infidels.

But you, Mohammed and the Quran confirm it is o.k.to fight people just because they don't believe in Allah.

But then a friend of Mohammed contradicts his prophet and therefore Allah, even though his prophet told him to do otherwise to "fight people until they say non has the right to be worshipped but Allah"

What am I to believe, Islamic sources or mis information given by Muslims?

You know the answer.

Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 065.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Musa : A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame
and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that
Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."


9.111
Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

Why are you following teachings that command you to kill people just because they believe differently to you?
1. Allah's Word = The Truth!
2. muslim also allowed to fight for them were wronged!
3. "fight people until they say non has the right to be worshipped but Allah" --> the exact translation isn't "be worshipped" but "be served" --> that hadith is aimed to muslim (who commit shahada but don't pay zakah), instead of non-muslim!
4. QS. 9:111 is only applied when/If muslim/believer should fight for/in the truth!

;)

User avatar
Garudaman
Posts: 1266
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:39 am

Re: It May Non-Muslim or Muslim of Group that May Not True,

Post by Garudaman »

frankie wrote:Garudaman:
You said:

"fight in God's Cause = fight for & in the Truth!"

Why should people have to be fought against, violently subjugated and killed just because they do not believe in what Muslims believe?
no, they were fought because they are fight against without right! ;)

User avatar
Garudaman
Posts: 1266
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:39 am

Re: It May Non-Muslim or Muslim of Group that May Not True,

Post by Garudaman »

antineoETC wrote:
Garudaman wrote:so, kafir is who deny what he/she believe, thus the exact translation of kafir actually is denier not dis/unbeliever, since dis/unbelieve because don't know can't considered kafir! ;)
In other words a "Kafir" might actually believe in his heart but refuses to admit their belief to themselves or openly?
yes, that's true! ;)

frankie
Posts: 2608
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: It May Non-Muslim or Muslim of Group that May Not True,

Post by frankie »

Garudaman wrote:
frankie wrote:Garudaman:

"fight in God's Cause = fight for & in the Truth!"

So did Mohammed break Allahs commands when he said fight to make Allahs word superior?

I was given to understand that Muslims are only allowed to fight in self defense,if they are attacked first by infidels.

But you, Mohammed and the Quran confirm it is o.k.to fight people just because they don't believe in Allah.

But then a friend of Mohammed contradicts his prophet and therefore Allah, even though his prophet told him to do otherwise to "fight people until they say non has the right to be worshipped but Allah"

What am I to believe, Islamic sources or mis information given by Muslims?

You know the answer.

Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 065.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Musa : A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame
and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that
Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."


9.111
Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

Why are you following teachings that command you to kill people just because they believe differently to you?

Garudaman:

1. Allah's Word = The Truth!
2. muslim also allowed to fight for them were wronged!
3. "fight people until they say non has the right to be worshipped but Allah" --> the exact translation isn't "be worshipped" but "be served" --> that hadith is aimed to muslim (who commit shahada but don't pay zakah), instead of non-muslim!
4. QS. 9:111 is only applied when/If muslim/believer should fight for/in the truth!

;)
1. Allah's Word = The Truth!
We only have Mohammed's word for this, and Mohammed proved himself untrustworthy in following the commands of Allah, because he broke them.
2. muslim also allowed to fight for them were wronged!
untrue.9.29 specifically states to "fight those who do not believe in Allah"

3. "
fight people until they say non has the right to be worshipped but Allah" --> the exact translation isn't "be worshipped" but "be served" --> that hadith is aimed to muslim (who commit shahada but don't pay zakah), instead of non-muslim!
You know this to be untrue ,so what have you got to hide?
4. QS. 9:111 is only applied when/If muslim/believer should fight for/in the truth!
Where is the evidence for your claim?

Your replies show clearly you don't want to admit the truth of your faith, because you have to distort the truth about it.

If you have to lie about your faith to justify it, then what does this tell you?

Anyone who has to lie to defend their faith just as you do, shows they cannot have much confidence or trust in it.

User avatar
Garudaman
Posts: 1266
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:39 am

Re: It May Non-Muslim or Muslim of Group that May Not True,

Post by Garudaman »

frankie wrote:We only have Mohammed's word for this, and Mohammed proved himself untrustworthy in following the commands of Allah, because he broke them.
no, that's not what Quran said thus what Islam teach :

QS. 4:82. Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah, they would have found within it much contradiction.

QS. 33:21. There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and [who] remembers Allah often.


because the Quran/Islam teach that what contradict with the Quran isn't what Messenger of God do!
frankie wrote:untrue.9.29 specifically states to "fight those who do not believe in Allah"
"don't belive in God" in term "fight without right", if not it will contradict with restriction QS. 22:39-40, QS. 9:4, QS. 9:6-7, QS. 4:90-92, QS. 2:190-194, QS. 5:34!
frankie wrote:You know this to be untrue, so what have you got to hide?
of course true, look again those restriction verses!
frankie wrote:Where is the evidence for your claim?

Your replies show clearly you don't want to admit the truth of your faith, because you have to distort the truth about it.

If you have to lie about your faith to justify it, then what does this tell you?

Anyone who has to lie to defend their faith just as you do, shows they cannot have much confidence or trust in it.
of course I don't lie, look again at QS. 45:20, QS. 4:82, & those restriction verses!

;)

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