Question for Ghaith and MM

[ringmaster]

.............This doesnt stop the Christians from telling people about the trinty

Muslims have the duality. They say they worship one god, but they worship their prophet more than they worship whoremaster allah.

But don't forget that a goat ate part of the koran, so I suppose we can say that muslims have their trinity too.

(1) Allah
(2) Muhammad
(3) the holy goat.

[skynightblaze]

Reading for less than 15 seconds i saw that retard Ali Sina made a mistake saying

In various places Muhammad admitted that he could not perform miracles.

It was Allah who split the Moon, Muhammad pointed at it with his Middle finger to show the power of God. Muhammad was nothing more than a mortal he couldnt split it at any time he wanted.

15 seconds is a very short time to draw any conclusion.It clearly shows that you tend to dismiss non islamic sources without even giving a thought that non muslims may have a point.

As far this miracle is concerned ...

Here is the quranic verse that clearly mentions that Allah never sent any sign to prove Muhammad was his prophet.

17:59
And We refrain from sending the signs, only because the men of former generations treated them as false: We sent the she-camel to the Thamud to open their eyes, but they treated her wrongfully: We only send the Signs by way of terror (and warning from evil).

The above verse clearly suggest that Allah never performed any miracles to show it to men so that they believed in Muhammad. If you still want to claim that muhammad performed a miracle then you need to accept that quran is lying here and therefore it is a fraud. You as a believer cannot believe in the quran and the miracle stuff simultaneously.

Spoiler! :

As for his photos he failed to come even close to


Sky you should give out Ali Sina articles as a rebutal, his an idiot. He tought that Abu Bakr was Muhammads foster brother.

Where has he failed? Please point it out. Those cracks in the photos are called riles and they are found on other planets as well, so does that mean other planets were also split up by someone?

Btw you have some serious misconceptions. You think that people blindly follow Ali Sina. That is not the case. We had a lot of threads in the past in which people actually went against Ali Sina. I personally do not agree with Sina on some of the comments he makes. So you see we basically agree with Sina when he makes valid points. Logic is logic and it does not matter who writes it. If you remember correctly, I even agreed with you once on necrophlia charge but that does not mean I follow you.

[skynightblaze]

@Ghaith

One more thing. Only islamic scriptures record this event. It is natural of believers to glorify their leader and attribute false miracles. There are similar examples.. See one here of Sathya Sai Baba who claimed to be God..

In his ashram he is said to manifest vibuthi (holy ash) and small objects like rings and watches daily. He claims to materialize these objects out of nothing. These claims are believed testified to by his followers. In addition, the followers, and even a few non-followers, have testified about many other miracles performed by him. He preaches a rather traditional, yet syncretic, form of Hinduism that has a strict morality. He teaches the unity of all major world religions and says that they all lead to God, which is in concordance with Vedic principles of the validity of multiple paths. His followers and the organizations that he has founded are involved in many charity projects and in collecting funds for various costly projects glorifying Sai Baba, including museums in his honour.

This person Sathya Sai Baba was proven as a fraud so you see this does not make this person a God or a prophet of God .

http://www.biographybase.com/biography/ ... _Baba.html

Now we also do not have any scientific evidence for your claim and lastly just because some non muslim attested to the miracle does not really make it a miracle just as in case of Sathya Sai Baba. Splitting of the moon is a phenomenon that would be witnessed from many places on earth.If that was the case we would find abundant records mentioning such a case and not just one.

[Ghaith]

Lying trough your teeth wont help you dear sky. You are starting to adapt Ali Sinais stupidty.

Here is the quranic verse that clearly mentions that Allah never sent any sign to prove Muhammad was his prophet.

17:59
And We refrain from sending the signs, only because the men of former generations treated them as false: We sent the she-camel to the Thamud to open their eyes, but they treated her wrongfully: We only send the Signs by way of terror (and warning from evil).

17:59 doesnt say that Allah never sent any signs. It says

Muhsin Khan 17:59
And nothing stops Us from sending the Ayat (proofs, evidences, signs) but that the people of old denied them. And We sent the she-camel to Thamud as a clear sign, but they did her wrong. And We sent not the signs except to warn, and to make them afraid (of destruction).

It says nothing about that God never sent any miracles, its says nothing stops god from sending miracles (more miracles e.g)

This verse is for those who ask God to send them something specific, like Thamud and the she camel when he dont they make the claim that god doesnt exist.

Like Bassam Zawadi said in his article.

Surah 17:59

Naught prevented Us from sending the signs (bial-ayati) but that the ancients cried lies to them; and We brought Thamood the She-camel visible, but they did her wrong. And We do not send the signs, except to frighten.

Again from sending the signs that the Quraysh specifically asked for just like how Thamud specifically asked for the she camel. (Tafsir of Qurtubi, Source: Online) God did not send it down to them as a mercy. Because God knows that if He sent the signs they asked for down to them they would still disbelieve. If God sent it down to them and they still disbelieved then He would have no choice but to destroy them. So it was for their own good.

Again the verse does not state that no signs have ever been sent down, just the ones that they specifically asked for.

[Ghaith]

Having several Eye witnesses and an Indian King Chakrawati Farmas witnising the Miracle making it unable to have been a trick/fraud.

“There is a very old tradition in Malabar, South-West Coast of India, that Chakrawati Farmas, one of their kings, had observed the splitting of the moon, the celebrated miracle of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) at Mecca, and learning on inquiry that there was a prediction of the coming of a Messenger of God from Arabia, he appointed his son as regent and set out to meet him. He embraced Islam at the hand of the Prophet, and when returning home, at the direction of the Prophet, died at the port of Zafar, Yemen, where the tomb of the “Indian king” was piously visited for many centuries.”

http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/farmas.html

[peterpin]

Now there is something fishy about this indian king story...
Chakrawati Farmas is supposed to have made enquiries about this moon thing, and he was told that there was a messenger is Arabia. The source of this information was a text written some time AFTER Mohammed's death, so how he managed to see that is beyond me..

So, as you do, as a good Hindu, he appointed his son regent,and ran off to check out old Mo, after studying an as yet non-existent text. Needless to say, he converted to Islam at the awesome sight of old Mo, and then, on the way home, died in Yemen.

Except that no respecteable Indian of the age would consider a journey to such a backwater as western Arabia, much less any kind of king.

Outside Muslim sources, there is no reference to this at all, and the story cannot be historical,as it it anachronistic. So it must be dismissed.

[iffo]

@Ghaith
Habibi don't make fun of yourself. There is no scientist saying that moon split into two like Muslims believe. Those lines are on moon and on some other planets as well.

And even that line is not all over moon circumference if you know what circumference means?
In order for moon to cut into two it has to be all around moon not for few miles.

Let say for sake of argument moon did split , not two parts but 10 parts, happy now.
Not everybody was there . People who did not see with their own eyes can still doubt that. And think whole thing is a hoax , lie or an allusion.
So why will god be upset at them? When they have genuine reason to be doubtful.

Btw you did not answer me, is your god psycho burning innocent people again and again just because they did not believe in Muhammad.

[peterpin]

dear Ghaith
Suppose you see a scratch on the paintwork of a car, a few centimetres long... would you think the car was cut into two halves along the line of the scratch? What if there are lots of scratches going this way and that...

The depth of those fissures you have pointed at in your photos are minute in comparison to the diametre of the moon. There are lots of them, in varying directions. In comparison to the length of the circumference of the moon,all are tiny and small. The circumference of the moon is about 11000 km. A fissure of a length of 100km is less than 1% of that. The diameter of the moon is about 3500km. A fissure even 10km deep would be less that half a percent of that.

Also shouldn't this fissure go all around the moon,in a straight line?

Now seriously, I hate to see you go because you get embarrased because you made a fool of yourself. If you really want to believe that old Mo split the moon or his pal allah did it to help him, be my guest, just don't spout it about, you will look silly, very silly...

I tried to show you another way to look at it, without interferring in your beliefs at all:

1) The quran verse refers to the last day,as many tafsir explain and even a number of translators explain.

2) So you can dismiss the legend of the splitting of the moon without worry that you may contradict the quran. You don't. Many eminent Muslims have done just that. Discuss it with an Imam, he will tell you the same. Honestly,you don't as a matter ofcourse have to disagree with me on everything just because I said it; I listen to you, and weigh things up, afterall.

It is in the nature of things that those who follow a leader, religious, political, or military will eventually surround him with legend. It says something about their devotion, but not much about the person.

So, perhaps it's best to lay this topic to rest and look at something else... the cringe factor is getting too much...

[piscohot]

Allah even though circumcision WAS NOT COMMANDED in the quran.

2:136

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "Abraham did his circumcision with an adze at the age of eighty." (Sahih Bukhari, Book #55, Hadith #575)

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "Five practices are characteristics of the Fitra: circumcision(1), shaving the pubic region(2), clipping the nails(3) and cutting the moustaches short.(4)" (Sahih Bukhari, Book #72, Hadith #777) (5)??

Abraham and his son Ishmael were both circumcised on that same day Genesis 17:26

and yet an event as significant as this was NOT recorded by any astrologers(or other witnessess) in other parts of the world during Muhammad's time.

If we are to follow your logic than Jesus didnt exist because there are not 3rd party history records of him. Second of all i showed many Eye witnesses from Different places (India and Arabia)

Muhammad can't even count.

I thought you believed that the bible was corrupted? So you know which verse was corrupted and which verse was not corrupted?

My logic is better than your logic.
Can Jesus when he was alive be seen in the sky all over the world like the moon?

think Ghaith, think

[Ghaith]

@Iffo
You cannot prove it dont as we do not have that footage, or atleast its not avaible on the internet "habibi".

@peter
You way of thinking is horrible wrong, just because an Imam says so or someone Makes a fatwa doesnt mean Islam allows it. If a priest says Muhammad is a prophet does that mean all christians are to belive so?

I tried to show you another way to look at it, without interferring in your beliefs at all

1.There is not a high mountain enough in Mina to reach the a point of view where it can seem that way.
2. People standing in different places the mountain wouldnt have had the same effect on all.

Second of all the reports about the King from India is a non islamic source. The old manuscript can be found in the 'India Office Library' contains several other details about King Chakrawati Farmas and his travel.

[quote]The miracle of the splitting of the moon was demonstrated before a certain gathering who persisted in denial of Muhammad’s Prophethood. As was related by ‘Adbullah ibn Mas‘ud, while they were in Mina’ one night, the Prophet split the moon into two by a gesture of his index finger. The halves of the moon appeared one behind the mountain and the other in front of it. Then, the Prophet turned to us and said: ‘Be witnesses!’(Bukhari, Manaqib, 27; Muslim, Kitab Sifat al-Munafiqin wa ahkamihim, 44)

Second of all the world wide claim here are problems with it Peter.

(a) The moon splitting miracle happened momentarily and at night in Arabia.

(b) For someone in other parts of the world to have noticed this event must have been watching the sky at that particular moment.

(c) Since prophet Mohammad did not announce to the whole world that he was going to perform this miracle, people in other countries who might have noticed the splitting of the moon would most likely have thought that their eyes or mind played a trick on them, due to stress or fatigue, etc.

(d) it was barely sunset in such European countries as Spain, France and England, daytime in America and morning in China and Japan, so people in such far away locations, in different time zones, could not have witnessed the event

(e) Natural phenomena and weather conditions, such as clouds, fog, etc., might have prevented clear vision in other parts of the world.
http://www.discoveringislam.org/splitting_of_moon.htm

[Ghaith]

Allah even though circumcision WAS NOT COMMANDED in the quran.

2:136

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "Abraham did his circumcision with an adze at the age of eighty." (Sahih Bukhari, Book #55, Hadith #575)

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "Five practices are characteristics of the Fitra: circumcision(1), shaving the pubic region(2), clipping the nails(3) and cutting the moustaches short.(4)" (Sahih Bukhari, Book #72, Hadith #777) (5)??

Abraham and his son Ishmael were both circumcised on that same day Genesis 17:26

and yet an event as significant as this was NOT recorded by any astrologers(or other witnessess) in other parts of the world during Muhammad's time.

If we are to follow your logic than Jesus didnt exist because there are not 3rd party history records of him. Second of all i showed many Eye witnesses from Different places (India and Arabia)

Muhammad can't even count.

I thought you believed that the bible was corrupted? So you know which verse was corrupted and which verse was not corrupted?

My logic is better than your logic.
Can Jesus when he was alive be seen in the sky all over the world like the moon?

think Ghaith, think

i choose to look at the bible(OT) as a history book. The NT is just garbage and is not worth looking into

[iffo]

@Ghaith

You are the one claiming lines on moon are cracks proving moon was split , so burden of proof is on you to get the footage that the line is all around moon , not just few miles, and get a scientists backing that it was split in 2.

I see you ran out of gas buddy, completely out of gas.

[Ghaith]

@Ghaith

You are the one claiming lines on moon are cracks proving moon was split , so burden of proof is on you to get the footage that the line is all around moon , not just few miles, and get a scientists backing that it was split in 2.

I see you ran out of gas buddy, completely out of gas.

Well we need to visit Nasa for the acctual footages iffo.

So untill now Iffo you havent really proven anything, and you gotten ran over. Hope you got the answer to your question .

[HomerJay]

You know, NASA scientists have confirmed that moon was split into two at one time. According to their calcuations, the time frame matches with when the prophet lived. As a result of this revelation a few NASA scentists converted to Islam too.

BTW, Did Mohammed even walk on water? Jesus did, you know. So who was a better prophet of Allah?

Split the moon, Walk on water. Both are great miracle. Not going to compare who was the "better" prophet.
But can the walk on water be proven today as the spliting of the moon ?

[/quote]

Ghaith,
You must be scraping the bottom of the "faith" barrel to use the Nasa photos of linear rilles. You DO realize there are NO scientists who believe that such depressions were ever caused by the splitting and joining of two pieces, don't you? Are you aware that there are hundreds of such linear and curved depressions all over the moon, running in random directions? And this is a picture of one relatively straight rille only 300 km long? The equatorial circumference of the moon is about 11,000 km. Where's the rest of the evidence of a "split moon"? Is Allah hiding the rest?

Plus, every scientist (who's not a Muslim) will tell you that such structures are the result of the collapse of the soil on the surface, leaving a smooth, often half-cylindrical depression. The theories are collapse of once-molten lava tubes just beneath the surface or differential movement of tectonic plates, resulting in a subterranean crack and resultant collapse of surface regolith. It's obvious to anyone who looks at it impartially that such depressions could NEVER result from the splitting and joining together of halves of the moon. Even if they came together with magical slowness and gentleness, there would be a discontinuity at the joint: a seam. Instead, ALL these rilles (all the hundreds of them) show the perfectly smooth bottom that would result from a surface collapse into a void, such as you would notice on the surface of the Earth when an underground culvert or pipeline collapses or disintegrates. The soil drops down to fill the void. No crack, and no impact detritus from the "joining" of two halves.

You need to look a little harder for your miracles. I'd search for evidence of flying donkeys.

[iffo]

@Ghaith

You are the one claiming lines on moon are cracks proving moon was split , so burden of proof is on you to get the footage that the line is all around moon , not just few miles, and get a scientists backing that it was split in 2.

I see you ran out of gas buddy, completely out of gas.

Well we need to visit Nasa for the acctual footages iffo.

So untill now Iffo you havent really proven anything, and you gotten ran over. Hope you got the answer to your question .

Oh no no no Habibi , it does not work like that . You guys meaning Muslim saw bunch of lines on moon and childishly started making claims, when no scientist said moon was split open. So you need to back up and get your evidence not us . Till then case is closed.

Time to move on. I told you let's say Muhammad/Allah did split moon into two.
But not everybody saw it. Can your Allah blame people for doubting that who did not see it? Does that give Allah the right to burn innocent people who honestly believe muhammad was fraud? So why your god is so upset ?

[SAM]

Oh no no no Habibi , it does not work like that . You guys meaning Muslim saw bunch of lines on moon and childishly started making claims, when no scientist said moon was split open. So you need to back up and get your evidence not us . Till then case is closed.

Time to move on. I told you let's say Muhammad/Allah did split moon into two.
But not everybody saw it. Can your Allah blame people for doubting that who did not see it? Does that give Allah the right to burn innocent people who honestly believe muhammad was fraud? So why your god is so upset ?

Stupid iffo a loser...no need scientist to proof it...yourself can split moon into two...

[iffo]

Oh no no no Habibi , it does not work like that . You guys meaning Muslim saw bunch of lines on moon and childishly started making claims, when no scientist said moon was split open. So you need to back up and get your evidence not us . Till then case is closed.

Time to move on. I told you let's say Muhammad/Allah did split moon into two.
But not everybody saw it. Can your Allah blame people for doubting that who did not see it? Does that give Allah the right to burn innocent people who honestly believe muhammad was fraud? So why your god is so upset ?

Stupid iffo a loser...no need scientist to proof it...yourself can split moon into two...

Well well well look who is here, another muslim genius is here

[HomerJay]

I still think Mohammed turned his back to the questioner and dropped his pants, exposing his "split moon".
"You want to see a miracle? Ok, HERE'S your miracle."

That's what happened. Notice the text does not say Mohammed or Allah actually SPLIT the moon, it says Mohammed "showed them" the split moon. He dropped his pants.

[iffo]

here is another miracle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30WyNSF91L8&feature=fvst

bunch of jokers

[HomerJay]

Praise be to Allah! Apollo 11 was lifted off at 54 minutes past the hour, and chapter 54 is "the moon". Can there be any greater proof? I feel like blowing myself up for some virgins on the basis of THAT proof. Well OK it would have been better if it had been the LANDING on the moon, but I take what miracles I can get. And sure, it bugs me that chapter 54 is all about the moon splitting miracle that happened 1400 years ago, that Muslims claim as historical PROOF of Mohammed's prophethood, but what you gonna do?

Apollo 11 launched at 5:54 GMT! Praise be to Allah!