There is no God but "God" and Muhammad is not His messenger.

[MesMorial]

I already mentioned it here:

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=10881&start=20#p166684" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I will provide details as they come to me (busy).

Cheers.

[sum]

Hello MesMorial

If Muhammad was not God`s messenger, what was he? If he did not relay God`s message then the Koran is completely false.

Am I misunderstanding your position? Please clarify your position for me.

sum

[MesMorial]

Hello MesMorial

If Muhammad was not God`s messenger, what was he? If he did not relay God`s message then the Koran is completely false.

Am I misunderstanding your position? Please clarify your position for me.

sum

Well coincidentally that was the same conclusion I came to!

[Ozes]

Hello MesMorial

If Muhammad was not God`s messenger, what was he? If he did not relay God`s message then the Koran is completely false.

Am I misunderstanding your position? Please clarify your position for me.

sum

Well coincidentally that was the same conclusion I came to!

Just another reason why this quranist movement is futile and doomed to fail. You can't reform a religion by offering them a reform which in itself does not fulfil religious needs and its own proponents even dabble between faith & disbelief. Whether this is for honest or false motives. You try to offer Muslims a empty shell, not a holy book but a history book to continue their religious life, it will not happen.

You even yourself can't answer properly how the vile laws in the quran will be interpreted. And i know how they will be interpreted, after 1400 years the lack of criticism on Islam, Islamic warfare and Islamic "justice" have failed to produce the need for reform. There is no need for reform for the majority of Muslims now, and you only add to this by trying to eliminate Islam criticism.

You turn the quran into a unappealing storybook. The main attraction of the quran is that verses are applicable troughout time and Muslims mostly love how detailed and realistic it is, a quranist turns it into the most vague, uninspiring religion on earth.

Quran will always be a book of war, and since two thirds of the book is about dehumanizing and calling for war upon infidels, its fair to see it covers all aspects of life. You can't read the quran and claim its main goal is to bond with all humans. Two thirds of the quran clearly covers all possible situations in life, and all say: Infidels are subhuman and must be subjugated or exterminated. This is what Muhammed tried to convey, and this is the only interpretation the majority of people will get reading it, especially when history offers no turningpoint as for example Europe had with the period of enlightenment. Traditions, Islamic (revisionist) history, and simple understanding of power & force, can only lead the Islamic world to one direction: a direction of opression and violence.


what we need to do is kill the sensitivity which you and your fellow quranists posess aswell:
The insensivity for Islam criticism.

This is what gets people killed,this is what causes Muslims to call for the rape & murder of young girls who speak out against Islam and it will get people killed until the day when everyone can say about Muhammed whatever you want. That is how you demilitarize a cult, by ensuring people cannot defend its myths by force without losing communal support. As long as we must tread on our toes when discussing Islam, Islam will grow in its current state. I have seen nothing which could fill the religious void you intent to create, nor do you show consistency when applying reasoning to hadith, yet stop doing so with the quran.

[darth]

Mesmorial, have you apostated? If so welcome back to humanity, my friend! Have you posted your story somewhere?

[MesMorial]

hmmmmmm

Just another reason why this quranist movement is futile and doomed to fail. You can't reform a religion by offering them a reform which in itself does not fulfil religious needs and its own proponents even dabble between faith & disbelief. Whether this is for honest or false motives. You try to offer Muslims a empty shell, not a holy book but a history book to continue their religious life, it will not happen.

But who says it does not fulfil religious needs? If people see it works for some, it will work for others (if they actually want it to...religion is based on the desire to follow religion!).

You even yourself can't answer properly how the vile laws in the quran will be interpreted. And i know how they will be interpreted, after 1400 years the lack of criticism on Islam, Islamic warfare and Islamic "justice" have failed to produce the need for reform. There is no need for reform for the majority of Muslims now, and you only add to this by trying to eliminate Islam criticism.

Yes but you have not asked me a question I have not adequately replied to. The “Islam criticism” you refer to is your interpretation of some verses (which I have replied to)…

You turn the quran into a unappealing storybook. The main attraction of the quran is that verses are applicable troughout time and Muslims mostly love how detailed and realistic it is, a quranist turns it into the most vague, uninspiring religion on earth.

Is that your review for “Book Week”?

Quran will always be a book of war, and since two thirds of the book is about dehumanizing and calling for war upon infidels, its fair to see it covers all aspects of life.

We don’t need hadith then.

You can't read the quran and claim its main goal is to bond with all humans. Two thirds of the quran clearly covers all possible situations in life, and all say: Infidels are subhuman and must be subjugated or exterminated.

In a Qur’an-alone society, piousness will be pompousness. However your claim about exterminating unbelievers is based on a lack of Qur’anic literacy. Again your “Islam criticism” is simply your own interpretation of specific verses (not Islam itself).

This is what Muhammed tried to convey, and this is the only interpretation the majority of people will get reading it, especially when history offers no turningpoint as for example Europe had with the period of enlightenment. Traditions, Islamic (revisionist) history, and simple understanding of power & force, can only lead the Islamic world to one direction: a direction of opression and violence.

They might get that impression if they are having a bad day, but a bit of simple reading (and reasoning from people who can read it) will not give them such an excuse. Once a person has been refuted with a touch of logic, they cannot “unlearn” something.


I admit the Qur’an is not a book of ice-cream and flowers, but that is irrelevant to my point.

what we need to do is kill the sensitivity which you and your fellow quranists posess aswell:
The insensivity for Islam criticism.

Again, it is more your allergy towards a proper understanding of some verses. You replace what is said with what you think it might lead to (in certain minds). You must have more faith in humanity and stop telling it that it is completelydumb. We are attempting to get people to think for themselves. The quality of the Qur’an is another issue, but it by itself does not lead to what you say. If a person accepts the Qur’an, it is because they do so with an intention of following it in a specific way. If it is not compatible, they will not follow it. I don’t really care about “Qur’anists”. I am usually more interested in their arguments.

This is what gets people killed,this is what causes Muslims to call for the rape & murder of young girls who speak out against Islam and it will get people killed until the day when everyone can say about Muhammed whatever you want.

I just said he was not a messenger, so I am not sure why you are connecting two separate issues (unless you are trying to make me guilty of something).

That is how you demilitarize a cult, by ensuring people cannot defend its myths by force without losing communal support.

What do you mean? How do the above things lead to Taliban not supporting Taliban?

As long as we must tread on our toes when discussing Islam, Islam will grow in its current state. I have seen nothing which could fill the religious void you intent to create, nor do you show consistency when applying reasoning to hadith, yet stop doing so with the quran.

So why would I create a void? I am entirely consistent with approach to hadith. Maybe you should read my posts more often.

Qur’an is best weapon against hadiths, but I think you need to read quran more.

Cheers.

[MesMorial]

Mesmorial, have you apostated? If so welcome back to humanity, my friend! Have you posted your story somewhere?

Hello darth

Yes I have "apostated" but it like losing virginity; some care others don't. I will post something eventually. My reasons for not being Sunni are already floating around.

Take care;
Cheers.

[piscohot]

There is no God but "God" and Muhammad is not His messenger.

MesMorial,

since Muhammad and the quran is out, where do you find your faith in the statement "There is no
God but "God"?

[MesMorial]

There is no God but "God" and Muhammad is not His messenger.

MesMorial,

since Muhammad and the quran is out, where do you find your faith in the statement "There is no
God but "God"?

The "" indicate that we can put our personal conceptions in.

[Ozes]

But who says it does not fulfil religious needs? If people see it works for some, it will work for others (if they actually want it to...religion is based on the desire to follow religion!).

You clearly do not understand the appeal of religion. Even you claimed to turn apostate trough your quranist views, so clearly you are not a religious person by nature. You attempt to offer a reform which is so empty it even set you on the path of apostasy.

Yes but you have not asked me a question I have not adequately replied to. The “Islam criticism” you refer to is your interpretation of some verses (which I have replied to)…

No, my Islam criticism is based on reality, when will you get nowhere in the world Islam criticism is allowed, and you yourself even troll posts with empty phrases and attempts to derail whenever you are in fear Islam even gets criticized somewhat. None of you answers have been marked with facts, you cannot inform me with a proof that Muslims will interpret the quran a certain way, you can't show certain clear commandments are more powerful then others, you simply give your own
You seem to think 1.2 billion will agree towards your very personalized and weak own interpretations. Do i blame your arguments for being illogical?
No, you even wander around apostasy.

Is that your review for “Book Week”?

Typical answer, no depth, just abusing the priviliges of a forum to troll against Islam criticism.

We don’t need hadith then.

So you agree the Quran is a book of war, which is only softened by the hadith, not by the book itself.

In a Qur’an-alone society, piousness will be pompousness. However your claim about exterminating unbelievers is based on a lack of Qur’anic literacy. Again your “Islam criticism” is simply your own interpretation of specific verses (not Islam itself).

No, Surah 9:29 and other verses are very clear about exterminating unbelievers. As much as you try to bend them to your own interpretation and claim most these verses are for unique situations, you have no proof these verses are not meant for all situations.

They might get that impression if they are having a bad day, but a bit of simple reading (and reasoning from people who can read it) will not give them such an excuse. Once a person has been refuted with a touch of logic, they cannot “unlearn” something.

Look how naive you are, 1400 years of warfare and opression. People still get killed constantly for turning apostate, or simply being a non-muslim. You have no proof or principles that the quran should be read a certain way. Your reform is pure imagination.

I admit the Qur’an is not a book of ice-cream and flowers, but that is irrelevant to my point.

People's lives are relevant. Two thirds of the quran paints unbelievers as subhumans needing to get killed or subjugated. Its impossible for it to bring good, especially in your world where Muslims are as affraid of Islam criticism as now, this fear will always turn into violence, as commanded by Muhammed & his partner Allah.

Again, it is more your allergy towards a proper understanding of some verses. You replace what is said with what you think it might lead to (in certain minds). You must have more faith in humanity and stop telling it that it is completelydumb. We are attempting to get people to think for themselves. The quality of the Qur’an is another issue, but it by itself does not lead to what you say. If a person accepts the Qur’an, it is because they do so with an intention of following it in a specific way. If it is not compatible, they will not follow it. I don’t really care about “Qur’anists”. I am usually more interested in their arguments.

You don't want people to think for themselves, you clearly are not a fan of Islam criticism. When there is nothing wrong with Islam in the eyes of Muslims, how can there be a need to think for themselves?

Recognizing a problem is the start, but when someone ' recognizes' the problem now he has to fear for his life. You fuel this fire by showing your distaste for Islam criticism. Even when we discuss the hadith you come to attack those who discuss the hadith instead of allowing awareness of the immorality of hadith. Your part of the problem, not a solution.

What do you mean? How do the above things lead to Taliban not supporting Taliban?

Whats the reason Muslims act so angry and are so willing to support sharia & jihad groups?
Its their sensitivity and intolerance for anything unislamic, something you possess equally.

So why would I create a void? I am entirely consistent with approach to hadith. Maybe you should read my posts more often.

Yes, you throw away the basis for the majority of Islamic rituals, exercises in fiqh & and other binding elements of Islam. Naturally this creates a religious void, the quran is a small incomprehensive book to fullfil an entire religion.

Qur’an is best weapon against hadiths, but I think you need to read quran more.

Its clear you need to read the quran more. The quran is about hating the infidel, its volume and intensity on this subject prove it. This will not help anyone but you and your fantasy reform. I think your mostly concerned with shirk in hadith, as no immoral acts in the hadith are spefically forbidden by the quran. Ripping the hadiths out Islam is unappealing, unvalidated and will only leave less room for peaceful interpretation.

[marduk]

There is nothing in the Quran which can benefit mankind in any way. It's whole thesis is that mankind was created for no other reason than to worship a supposed god. How exactly does worshiping a god benefit mankind? It sure worked well for the Palestinians, huh? Those buggers prayed 5 times a day AND fasted for a month AND built a dome on the Rock and Allah STILL gave the Jews power and wealth and gave the Palestinians humiliation. Allah is most beneficent, to those who deserve it, not to those who seek to gain his favor by their many supplications. Allah knows the good from the evil, and praying 100 times a day won't fool him, as we have clearly been shown. So do tell us what benefit this "Quran" of yours has?

[charleslemartel]

Mesmorial, have you apostated? If so welcome back to humanity, my friend! Have you posted your story somewhere?

Hello darth

Yes I have "apostated" but it like losing virginity; some care others don't. I will post something eventually. My reasons for not being Sunni are already floating around.

Take care;
Cheers.

Hello MesMorial,

Whenever I read your posts, even though I don't come here often or much anymore, I find them interesting.
Just to clarify your post further, do you now believe in some other sect of Islam? If yes, I would be interested in knowing about that.

I would also like to know about your concept of "God".

[SAM]

Hello MesMorial,

I would also like to know about your concept of "God".

I am more interesting the concept of God.. There is no God..... not this "God".

Would you Mes care to explain.

[MesMorial]

Mesmorial, have you apostated? If so welcome back to humanity, my friend! Have you posted your story somewhere?

Hello darth

Yes I have "apostated" but it like losing virginity; some care others don't. I will post something eventually. My reasons for not being Sunni are already floating around.

Take care;
Cheers.

Hello MesMorial,

Whenever I read your posts, even though I don't come here often or much anymore, I find them interesting.
Just to clarify your post further, do you now believe in some other sect of Islam? If yes, I would be interested in knowing about that.

I would also like to know about your concept of "God".

Well there is no sect of Islam with such a "shahada".

Here is why person can insert their own idea of God:

Spoiler! :

A philosophical rationale for belief in God (stripped of religious condiments)


Evil walks in view, wearing a cowl called “Complexity”. Although the Devil is disguised, this cloak looks so scary that people are afraid to question or investigate what is inside.

It is the cloak worn by Institutions, including Sunnism and the economic system. Complexity in no way serves society; it merely wraps around like a snake and suffocates anyone who tries to breathe. It is a blanket of black cloud, but anyone who stops looking, closes their eyes and takes the time to feel the wind, to breathe deeply enough to “feel” their freedom – to know that there is really Nothing blocking their view – will know that these clouds can be blown away by the slightest breath.

Humans are, by their nature, progressive. That is to say, we naturally wish to “improve” our condition according to our individual perception of “what is better”. This will be relative from situation to situation, and two perceptions which clash will create discord. For example, a selfish notion of “what is better” will be at the intrinsic expense of others, leading to societal imbalance. The affected parties will attempt to correct this imbalance, but if done from purely selfish motives rather than for the sake of society as a whole, change will be temporal like topsoil without roots.

The quality of a practice or organisation can be measured by its sustainability. Short-sightedness is non-sustainable. Conflict and discord is non-sustainable, but neither is peace if based upon self-serving and thus short-sighted motives.

Maslow’s “hierarchy of needs” identifies five basic needs: “physiological”, “security”, “belonging”, “self-esteem” and “self-actualisation”.

Desire for excess creates an unnecessary “need” which contaminates all higher levels. For example, if someone wishes to eat too much food, their higher needs will be satisfied only as long as they can still have that excess food. Money is another example, affecting our ability to access food and to provide for a family etc..

The cure is to see each need in its proper functional perspective - i.e. as a part of the larger Process.

If we can understand Progress as a natural process which builds on itself from stage to stage, we can understand that each experience, each acquisition and each decision is in fact part of a larger, non-cyclical Process. This does not end in excess, nor does it require it. “Self-actualisation” is about reaching one’s potential, and the only way to do this is to progress BEYOND all lower needs (including acquisition) such that these lower needs actually mean something. Food means nothing if we consume ourselves to death. Security means nothing if we stay in a palace all of our lives. Belonging means nothing if others have no vision or individual thought, and self-esteem means nothing if it is based on temporal notions of “status”.

“Self-actualisation” defines the rest of the Process (Path). Once all lower needs are fulfilled, a person will feel the natural compulsion to progress past the “selfish-state”. Since humans ultimately require love, security and spirituality, these values will manifest outwardly. They are the results of Progress and self-awareness, and are what we must embody if they are to mean something. This is the basic nature of humanity, the “natural state” beyond the selfishness derived from artificial and unnecessary Complexity.


AFTERTHOUGHT:

We can envisage “Eternity” in terms of “endless sustainability”. If a person recognises that Progress is about seeking the ultimate Truth, he/she will devote the entire Process of existence towards seeking knowledge and acknowledging that all the values of Progress are a part of that Truth.

Belief in God gives sustainable meaning to this quest. It is just envisaging “what is best”.

The Path will not be completed in this lifetime, but even to the Atheist, to worry about this is to say that we should kill ourselves since we will die anyway.

It is no more irrational than love.

Selfishness is irrational.

[MesMorial]

Hello MesMorial,

I would also like to know about your concept of "God".

I am more interesting the concept of God.. There is no God..... not this "God".

Would you Mes care to explain.

"There is no God..." is a phrase constituting a part of the Sunni-shahada. If taken out of context, it can be interpreted to mean "there is no God."

[marduk]

It's a dumb phrase. Think about it, "there is no god but god". Obviously there ARE many gods, the list is so long you can't even name them all. They obviously exist, like the ones in Egypt to this very day. They are physically present in the form of stone and Allah was unable to get rid of them. They are still right there like they always were. So to say that there are no gods but, supposedly, Allah is an outright lie. Then to say that there is no god BUT GOD is even dumber, because the god of Abraham is not named "God". So saying "there is no god but God" is an inane and meaningless phrase. You haven't even specified which god is actually named God. I don't know of any gods actually named "God", do you?

[MesMorial]

It's a dumb phrase. Think about it, "there is no god but god". Obviously there ARE many gods, the list is so long you can't even name them all. They obviously exist, like the ones in Egypt to this very day. They are physically present in the form of stone and Allah was unable to get rid of them. They are still right there like they always were. So to say that there are no gods but, supposedly, Allah is an outright lie. Then to say that there is no god BUT GOD is even dumber, because the god of Abraham is not named "God". So saying "there is no god but God" is an inane and meaningless phrase. You haven't even specified which god is actually named God. I don't know of any gods actually named "God", do you?

Well that is why I said there is no God except "God". Whatever people consider a real creator-god becomes God (whether this is the combined power of the Telly-Tubbies, or Cthulhu or Allah).

[marduk]

How come Muhammad was the only one who ever included himself with God? Who ever said, for instance, "there is no god but YHWH and Moses is his messenger"? Nobody, because the messenger is not important. He is supposed to be a mere conduit for God's words. It's not supposed to be a license to be a dictator. That's not really what being a prophet was about, but Arabs were too ignorant to know that. All they cared about was who was in power, and prophethood was merely another way to gain it. That's why, as I said before, anyone who claims to be a prophet and makes personal gain from that claim, be it monetary or political, must be killed. Can't have self serving con-men like that running around giving prophets a bad name. Arabs, of course, just fall at a false prophet's feet and ask him how they should wipe their bums. That's the difference between Arabs and normals. And if you don't believe Muhammad was a con-man, how do you explain a wealthy Arab widow agreeing to marry an illiterate nobody? How did he pull THAT one off? I doubt it was his penis size alone, though I'm sure that was immense, requiring 12 women to maintain it.

[Lotus Feet]

Well that is why I said there is no God except "God". Whatever people consider a real creator-god becomes God (whether this is the combined power of the Telly-Tubbies, or Cthulhu or Allah).

Good to meet you Mesmorial. You are correct and it is written in Micah 4 for the last days of the end times.

"He will judge between many peoples and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. Everyone will sit under their own vine and under their own fig tree, and no one will make them afraid, for the LORD Almighty has spoken. All the nations may walk in the name of their gods, but we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever."

How does he judge between the peoples? Micah tells you about his Daughter ZION and in the chapter she is also called Daughter Jerusalem. She was sent to Babylon to help the USA and the scripture tells you that after her return she received her kingship.

In the NT Christ told his followers that the Queen of the South would come to judge this generation, he told the Jewish priests that the only sign that they would be given would be the sign of Jonah. The great whale turned up in Israel in May 2010.

The Saudi messenger did not fulfill the biblical prophecies, or criteria, the prophecies in the Dead Sea Scrolls and other texts.
He did not have the right gender, name or arrive in the right timeline either, for the one promised to Moses.

The biblical prophecies about the one are extensive. All the prophets did what they could to help her in advance, and they left messages everywhere, they knew that she would understand them.

Also a new revelation was given to King David who knew that the one would not be born in Israel. The new revelation was also about one that would come before her. In Psalm 92 he is called the Lute and Lovingkindness that comes at day time. He is followed by the harp of faithfulness that arrives at night time. e.g. the last days of the end times.

Hence why the one known as Jesus told his followers that the next paraclete would come to help them and that they would give glory to his teachings.

The Saudi messenger did not give glory to his teachings, nor did he understand them because he wasn't a healer. The true prophets of God understand human consciousness and how to heal it. Prophet Isaiah understood ascension of the being, Malachi understood spiritual alchemy and how the purification comes to be.

As we know it takes one to know one.

[SAM]

Hello MesMorial,

I would also like to know about your concept of "God".

I am more interesting the concept of God.. There is no God..... not this "God".

Would you Mes care to explain.

"There is no God..." is a phrase constituting a part of the Sunni-shahada. If taken out of context, it can be interpreted to mean "there is no God."

Would you care to give more details.