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Re: I declare Islam to be false

PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:07 pm
by Eagle
Regardless of who that Iffo is and if he truly apostised, what the Quran says should be done with those like him is simply NOTHING. Anyone can leave Islam and come back time and time again without punishement or being killed 4:137 which bellies the idea of killing a person as a punishement for leaving Islam or wavering in his faith. However God will only accept his repentence if it is sincere 3:86-89 and not followed by constant periods of disbelief then belief 4:137. Nowhere does the Quran say a person must be punished or killed solely for the act of apostasy and all it mentions is that apostates shall face a terrible punishment in the Hereafter when the apostate is not one who is 3:86-91,16:106"compelled while his heart is at rest on account of faith" ie compelled to renounce faith with his lips due to imminent danger on his life while he remains a firm believer in his heart, but rather one who willingly, without any compulsion renounces Faith and "opens (his) breast to disbelief-- on these is the wrath of Allah, and they shall have a grievous chastisement".

Apostates are not to be taken as friends when they were former hypocrites, especially in the context of war as in the verses bellow, since they used to hide their hatred and ennimity for Muslims and now openly declare it, even striving to cause disbelief among the Muslims 4:88-89"What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned?..They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike". They are therefore to be cut off from the community to avoid the spread of their mischief 4:89"take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes)/hajiru in Allah's way" ie until they decisively return to Islam (as indicated by the clause "fi sabilillah/for Allah's sake") and prove their faith to the rest of the community through difficult sacrifices such as leaving their homes and doing hijra in Allah's way, forsaking the domain of evil for an environement where they can practice their faith without restrictions, as the true believers were doing. If they do not do so and definately turn their backs to the Muslim community, thus remaining a threat from within aiming at causing mischief and serve the purpose of those with whom Muslims are at war 4:89"if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper" ie they must be executed because of their open and secret hostile activities. However if those apostates refuse to flee their homes in Allah's way but nevertheless end the threat from within by migrating for 4:90"a people between whom and you there is an alliance" or who decide to remain within the Muslim community but have decisively abandonned all hostilities 4:90"who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people..withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them".

There is no compulsion in religion 2:256,18:29 so no punitive measure can be directed at an apostate neither can he be compelled to go back to Islam or forced to repent solely on the basis of his choice of creed. Per the Quran and as made clear in 4:88-90, action is to be undertaken against an apostate when he engages in hostile behavior towards Muslims and the Muslim state meaning that fighting, punishing or killing an apostate has nothing to do with a person's choice of creed but with his behavior towards the Muslims. Prior to their apostasy, such hypocrites had the benefit of the doubt as regards to their intentions but their apostasy now leaves no doubt as to the true intention of their continuous misbehaviour.

Re: I declare Islam to be false

PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:42 pm
by sum
Hello Eagle

I note that you only quote the Koran and then use very feeble weasel words to try and convince people that there is no punishment for apostasy. You choose to bend the meaning of Koran 4:89 to support your case. It is very clear that you disapprove of Islamic punishments and so instead of quoting the ahadith where Muhammad orders those who leave Islam to be killed you ignore them completely.

The above punishment is prescribed in a Hadith recorded by the Bukhari: "It is reported by `Abaas ... that the messenger of Allah ... said, `Whosoever changes his religion (from Islam to any other faith), kill him."

In his book Shari`ah: The Islamic Law, Doi remarks, "The punishment by death in the case of Apostasy has been unanimously agreed upon by all the four schools of Islamic jurisprudence."


The Islamic scholars and clerics understand Islam a lot better than you do and so their conclusion that apostates are to be killed is the valid one.

Once a person becomes a Muslim, he cannot recant. If he does, he will be warned first, then he will be given three days to reconsider and repent. If he persists in his apostasy, his wife is required to divorce him, his property is confiscated, and his children are taken away from him. He is not allowed to remarry. Instead, he should be taken to court and sentenced to death. If he repents, he may return to his wife and children or remarry. According to the Hanifites an apostate female is not allowed to get married. She must spend time in meditation in order to return to Islam. If she does not repent or recant, she will not be sentenced to death, but she is to be persecuted, beaten and jailed until she dies. Other schools of Shari`a demand her death.

Do you support Islamic law, Eagle?

If you do not like the real Islam find the courage to do as iffo has done and declare Islam as false, create your own religion if you need one and join humanity.

sum

Re: I declare Islam to be false

PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:05 pm
by Eagle
Reality was explained to you in elementary terms. I am unable to depict it with any more simplicity than what it already has.

Re: I declare Islam to be false

PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:50 pm
by SAM
sum wrote:
Do you support Islamic law, Eagle?
I do fully support Sharia Law for people like you as describes in Romans 1:28-32

And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

:roflmao:

Re: I declare Islam to be false

PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:39 pm
by StrongLove
SAM wrote:
sum wrote:
Do you support Islamic law, Eagle?
I do fully support Sharia Law for people like you as describes in Romans 1:28-32

And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

:roflmao:


First I'd like to say that I know you are not condoning religion based law.

People are no longer punished for leaving Christianity but that can not be said about islam. Even though both ideas are from religions, enlightened civilisations no longer allow such unreasonable punishments to take place.

Your quote highlights both the absurdity of allowing religions to decide punishment & how far behind islamic ideology/arab culture is.

Re: I declare Islam to be false

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:19 am
by iffo
So Eagle is saying that Quran and Allah failed in conveying the message to Muslims despite the claim again and again in quran that god explains things so clearly. Allah failed because most of the Muslims got it wrong and they think person leaving islam should be killed. And that's what they believe for 1400 years. How effective Quran was in its communication, amazing, allah is a great communicator that's for sure.

If Eagle reads history and Islamic historians/scholars and educate himself he will learn what was Ali's punishment for apostasy ?

Would you care to know Ali's punishment Eagle? Did Ali got it all wrong? Not to forget Muhammad who also killed for leaving islam.

Eagle you did not answer why Muhammad raided the caravans and Muhammad and 4 guided caliphs attacked others' lands and countries?

Re: I declare Islam to be false

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:30 am
by marduk
What's going on in this verse? Looks kinda like Muhammad was casing out a caravan for a heist. What's that about? I mention it because iffo mentioned Muhammad being a caravan bandit. Why did the Mecca army need to protect the caravan from the Muslims?

8:42 (Asad) [Remember that day] when you were at the near end of the valley [of Badr], and they were at its farthest end, while the caravan was below you. [43] And if you had known that a battle was to take place, you would indeed have refused to accept the challenge: [44] but [the battle was brought about none the less,] so that God might accomplish a thing [which He willed] to be done, [45] [and] that he who would perish might perish in clear evidence of the truth, and that he who would remain alive might live in clear evidence of the truth. [46] And, behold, God is indeed all-hearing, all-knowing.

Re: I declare Islam to be false

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:20 am
by SAM
StrongLove wrote:
First I'd like to say that I know you are not condoning religion based law.

People are no longer punished for leaving Christianity but that can not be said about islam. Even though both ideas are from religions, enlightened civilisations no longer allow such unreasonable punishments to take place.

Your quote highlights both the absurdity of allowing religions to decide punishment & how far behind islamic ideology/arab culture is.
:D My highlights which might just scare Sharia hater off for good... :*)

Re: I declare Islam to be false

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:29 am
by Eagle
marduk wrote:What's going on in this verse? Looks kinda like Muhammad was casing out a caravan for a heist. What's that about? I mention it because iffo mentioned Muhammad being a caravan bandit. Why did the Mecca army need to protect the caravan from the Muslims?

8:42 (Asad) [Remember that day] when you were at the near end of the valley [of Badr], and they were at its farthest end, while the caravan was below you. [43] And if you had known that a battle was to take place, you would indeed have refused to accept the challenge: [44] but [the battle was brought about none the less,] so that God might accomplish a thing [which He willed] to be done, [45] [and] that he who would perish might perish in clear evidence of the truth, and that he who would remain alive might live in clear evidence of the truth. [46] And, behold, God is indeed all-hearing, all-knowing.


Old topic already treated and explained to your ignorant predecessors on this very site. The verse is speaking of the 2nd battle of Badr and i will show you how i showed them using the Quran that the true events are light years away from what you and your people deceptively try to paint.

The Quraysh had officially begun grand-scale preparations to attack Medina. Every Quraysh put all their savings together in order to increase their trade, generating the maximum of profit to purchase of weapons, horses, and other items of war to fight the Muslims of Medina 8:36"Surely those who disbelieve spend their wealth to hinder (people) from the way of Allah; so they shall spend it, then it shall be to them an intense regret, then they shall be overcome; and those who disbelieve shall be driven together to hell".
The Great Battle of Badr took place in the month of Ramadan 2/624. Fearing that his caravan coming from Syria to Mecca might be intercepted by the prophet through the tribes he had allied with, Abu Sufyan sent an urgent message to Mecca informing them about the threat on their wealth, which was partly in fact the property which they seized from the Muslims before the Hijra, and destined for the purchase of war equipment. About 1000 men from the various clans of Quraysh, headed by Abu Jahl, responded to his call and by deviating the caravans to another route toward the sea coast with great speed, he managed to escape. Now, the fighting men of Quraysh decided to engage the Muslims in war because a withdrawal soon after the escape of their caravan would be regarded as a total defeat. Even after the Banu Zuhrah tribe deserted the polytheists' ranks, they were still counting 990 men, among them al-Abbas (the Prophet's uncle), Aqil (son of Abu Talib). They began marching towards Medina and after 10 days, they met the Muslims at Badr headed by the prophet Muhammad. The Muslims had journeyed for 3 days from Medina in order to reach Badr.

If they werent compelled to defend themselves, the Muslims who counted just above 300 fighters would have never entertained the idea of seting an appointement with the alliance of disbelievers 8:41"and if you had mutually made an appointment, you would certainly have broken away from the appointment" and the people who saw this small band of Muslims marching forward to meet a far superior ennemy considered that their faith had rendered them crazy 8:49. The Muslims were at the side of Badr's valley that was nearer to Medina, the disbelievers at the furthest side of the valley and the fleeing caravans at the seacost returning to Mecca 8:42. Having heard of their huge numbers, some Muslims wished to go after Abu Sufyan's vulnerable caravans instead of engaging the Meccans in battle, in order to retrieve some of their stolen property but the prophet ordered all to stand firm to defend Medina, reminding them that the object of jihad is not to plunder the enemy's belongings (as already explained here viewtopic.php?f=22&t=10956&start=60#p167760). This is what Allah intended to bring about by trying them in their greed or will to defend the light of Islam from being extinguished 8:5-8"Even as your Lord caused you to go forth from your house with the truth, though a party of the believers were surely averse. They disputed with you about the truth after it had become clear, (and they went forth) as if they were being driven to death while they saw (it). And when Allah promised you one of the two parties that it shall be yours and you loved that the one not armed should be yours and Allah desired to manifest the truth of what was true by His words and to cut off the root of the unbelievers. That He may manifest the truth of what was true and show the falsehood of what was false, though the guilty disliked". These are not the descriptions of men seeking to plunder unnarmed caravans. The believers were fearful because they were going to meet an enemy not only greater in numbers, but also much more powerful and efficient. Such tone is found in all of the Muslims' early battles 48:12 as they set themselves to encounter a much stronger enemy. As is clear, the believers were -from the very beginning as they left their homes- averse while going forth, as if being "driven to death" and knowing they will meet the army of the Quraish in a decisive battle.

They had an absolute conviction of the truth of Muhammad's prophethood because any motivation they might have had for material gain must now be discounted and the true defensive jihad in the way of Allah be performed 4:74-75"Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter..And what reason have you that you should not fight in the way of Allah and of the weak among the men and the women and the children, (of) those who say: Our Lord! cause us to go forth from this town, whose people are oppressors, and give us from Thee a guardian and give us from Thee a helper". And to add to this test of their resolve, the Muslims were located far from the stream of Badr which the Meccans had taken control of, and were camping on sandy ground making it difficult for them to run, while the Meccans had a ground of firm clay under their feet. But Allah's help came to the believers 8:11"(Remember)When He caused calm to fall on you as a security from Him and sent down upon you water from the cloud that He might thereby purify you..and that He might fortify your hearts and steady (your) footsteps thereby".

The battle started on the 17th of Ramadan. The Muslims set to meet the polytheists with 313 fighters, 2 horses and 70 camels. In a vision to the prophet, Allah made the future adversaries of the Muslims look few in numbers because had He shown them as they truly were 8:43"you would certainly have become weak-hearted and you would have disputed about the matter". In that prophetic vision, the prophet saw what would occur at the battlefield, namely the fact that the ill-equiped and outnumbered Muslims will be assisted by angels whose number will be proportionate to the believers' degree of patience and God-consciousness, "pouring down" from Heaven, thousand after thousand in succession/murdifin exactly like an orderly army being sent section after section in waves 3:123-5,8:9. The number of angels was meant, not to answer a logistical necessity, but as a means of uplifting them psychologically and motivate them in the face of the overwhelming power they were about to face, and victory is ultimately from Allah alone Who could have exacted divine retribution on a nation of rejecters through other means as He amply did in the past, instead of having recourse to the angels or the believers as has been decreed with Muhammad and Moses 8:10,47:4. As the vision was communicated to the believers 3:123-4,8:10 it impacted them greatly by making them 8:12"firm" in their resolve which in turn had the effect of casting "terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve". Such terror was due to their instant psychological defeat at seeing those whom they knew were helpless and weak engage them with such ferocity and resolve, consequently seeing the believers 3:13"twice as many". When the parties firstly met, the Muslims who were convinced that the heavenly hosts were on their side saw the coalition of disbelievers as few despite clearly outnumbering them in manpower and equipment, and the disbelievers' first impression upon seeing the Muslims was their little number due to their physical appearance 8:44. This emboldenned both parties to engage in battle; the few Muslims and the angels on their sides against the large coalition of disbelievers with evil forces on their side whispering their suggestions to incite them further 8:48. It was so 8:44"in order that Allah might bring about a matter which was to be done" which was to make that battle a 8:41"day of distinction", making it a landmark and a criterion for the believers as well as the disbelievers and a concrete proof of the truthfulness of Muhammad's years of prophetic warnings.
The Muslim warriors and the unseen angels on their sides began to slay and capture the rejecters of faith, while the shaitan 8:48"turned upon his heels, and said: Surely I am clear of you, surely I see what you do not see, surely I fear Allah; and Allah is severe in requiting (evil)". 70 disbelievers were killed and 70 made prisoners. 8:54"In the manner of the people of Firon and those before them; they rejected the communications of their Lord, therefore We destroyed them on account of their faults and We drowned Firon's people, and they were all unjust".

This is the exact same process that occurred with the Bani Israil in the time of Moses, with the drowning of the host of Pharoah and the deliverance of the Israelites. Not to mention, the Quranic invitation to the Arabs to see or recall for themselves the fate of the deniers of Noah, Lot, Eber, Jethro... The Quran is a Book of Warning that has already delivered its judgment in this world.

Re: I declare Islam to be false

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:48 pm
by marduk
So in fact there was no caravan in the valley when the two forces met. So the Quran is wrong. Allah is therefore not the real god. Thank you. They were worried about Muslims robbing the caravan. Why, unless they had been known for doing so?

Now why were the Muslims being "persecuted"? Nobody cared what god somebody else worshiped, except the Muslims. They DEMANDED that everybody else worship no god but their god, Muhammad going so far out of line that he actually defiled the holy idols, an act of blasphemy against the gods and disrespect against their devotees. That's why they were despised then and that's why they're despised now. Muslims just don't get the concept of "freedom of religion". That's the whole problem right there. You worship your Allah and leave me alone to worship my idol in peace. No, your Allah is NOT the only god who is worthy of worship. That's just your arrogant delusion. If Muhammad had shut the hell up about Allah and just peacefully worshiped him then there would have been no "persecution". Act like an arrogant jerk and, yeah, people will eventually try to hurt you. Be Muslims all you want, just don't involve us in your delusions. No, we don't have to accept your delusions as reality. What about that do Muslims not understand?

Re: I declare Islam to be false

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:07 pm
by iffo
@eagle
Source please ?

Total lie. That's how people like little buddy eagle fool themselves and others.

Truth is confirmed by all historians and admitted by even Muslim historians that soon after getting to medina
Muslims started monitoring trade caravans and attacking them. Muhammad before badar tried to raid some other caravans but did not succeed. Badar was again one of those raids where Muslims went to rob the caravan but caravan was rerouted and and Abu Sufian and army that came to defend the caravan decided to teach Muhammad a lesson for attacking the caravan. He attacked them at badar where Muslim were hidding and waiting for the caravan. Muslim did not actually come to fight but just to raid the caravan. It's a known fact and all muslim historians agree on it.

Re: I declare Islam to be false

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:19 pm
by SAM
iffo wrote:@eagle
Source please ?
Spoiler! :
Total lie. That's how people like little buddy eagle fool themselves and others.

Truth is confirmed by all historians and admitted by even Muslim historians that soon after getting to medina
Muslims started monitoring trade caravans and attacking them. Muhammad before badar tried to raid some other caravans but did not succeed. Badar was again one of those raids where Muslims went to rob the caravan but caravan was rerouted and and Abu Sufian and army that came to defend the caravan decided to teach Muhammad a lesson for attacking the caravan. He attacked them at badar where Muslim were hidding and waiting for the caravan. Muslim did not actually come to fight but just to raid the caravan. It's a known fact and all muslim historians agree on it.
Battle Of Badr... http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Arti ... _talib.htm

Re: I declare Islam to be false

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:43 pm
by iffo
Hahaha buddy SAM did not read the article looks like.... In the end it says same thing that prophet went to ambush the caravan.
...The Holy Prophet decided that in order to break up the trade monopoly of the Quraish, their caravans should be ambushed by the Muslims at strategic points.
................
The Holy Prophet held a council of war, and after taking the pros and cons of the case into consideration, it was decided that the Muslims should make an attempt to ambush the caravan...


Apologists make all sort of stories to justify rading caravans . More mouths more stories .
Bottom line is ,wrong is wrong prophet of god does not act like a highway robber stealing goods.

And it is just one of many raids Muhammad executed on trade caravans. This is the guy who went to heaven to meet god ... :)

And people still want to call him prophet .. Amazing

ThAnks for the confirmation SAM

Re: I declare Islam to be false

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:03 am
by enceladus
iffo wrote:(snip)
And people still want to call him prophet .. Amazing


Good on you, iffo!
- enceladus

Re: I declare Islam to be false

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:34 am
by SAM
iffo wrote:Hahaha buddy SAM did not read the article looks like.... In the end it says same thing that prophet went to ambush the caravan.

...The Holy Prophet decided that in order to break up the trade monopoly of the Quraish, their caravans should be ambushed by the Muslims at strategic points.
When the Muslims reached Badr they found that the caravan of the Quraish had already crossed the danger point, and could no longer be ambushed.
................
The Holy Prophet held a council of war, and after taking the pros and cons of the case into consideration, it was decided that the Muslims should make an attempt to ambush the caravan...
A force of 313 persons was raised, and they marched to Badr some eighty miles from Madina.
This story is not fake Movie MARCH 313.. :D

Apologists make all sort of stories to justify rading caravans . More mouths more stories .
Bottom line is ,wrong is wrong prophet of god does not act like a highway robber stealing goods.
Right can make a wrong and wrong can make a right...The Holy Prophet realized that in the circumstances the Muslims would have to wage a war against the Quraish and the Jews on the economic front....This is the perfect time for you to go back to school to learn about economics and business

And it is just one of many raids Muhammad executed on trade caravans. This is the guy who went to heaven to meet god ... :)
Muhammad make Duas for Guidance...


And people still want to call him prophet .. Amazing
Yeah...AMAZING!...Nothing to be surprised about.

ThAnks for the confirmation SAM
Your Welcome!

Re: I declare Islam to be false

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:54 am
by enceladus
Dear SAM -

If Islam is so "wonderful", then why have the Islamic countries barely progressed in the last 1400 years?

Why are they such a mess? Surely, if the alleged-to-exist Allah actually exists, he should show a bit more gratitude to his followers, and enormously improve the conditions there!

Another question - consider this verse -
“And of everything We have created pairs.” [Al-Qur’aan 51:49]
What about asexual organisms? To quote WikiIslam -
"The Qur'an leaves out asexual organisms
Asexual reproduction is found in the majority of living organisms, including most plants, protists (e.g. bacteria, protozoans, and unicellular algae and fungi), and many lower invertebrates such as tapeworms.
Other examples of asexual reproductive organisms are hydrae and many lower plants (e.g. ferns)."

Everything in twos? I think not. Oh, and here's a good one for you -
The Qur'an leaves out Schizophyllum commune.

Schizophyllum commune is the world's most widely distributed fungus, occurring on every continent except Antarctica. It is known to have more than 28,000 distinct sexes.
Read about it here - http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=ht ... 2011-02-11

Everything in twos? Sorry man - you've been "had".
- enceladus

Re: I declare Islam to be false

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:15 am
by sum
Hello SAM

Your quote -
When the Muslims reached Badr they found that the caravan of the Quraish had already crossed the danger point, and could no longer be ambushed.

Muhammad`s intention was to ambush the caravan but in the event he could not. The fact that he could not now ambush the caravan is not the point, is it? The point is that he intended to ambush the caravan.

Muhammad was nothing more than a psychopathic warlord.

Do you support all that Muhammad did?

sum

Re: I declare Islam to be false

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:02 pm
by marduk
"Apologists make all sort of stories to justify rading caravans . More mouths more stories .
Bottom line is ,wrong is wrong prophet of god does not act like a highway robber stealing goods."

Right can make a wrong and wrong can make a right...The Holy Prophet realized that in the circumstances the Muslims would have to wage a war against the Quraish and the Jews on the economic front....This is the perfect time for you to go back to school to learn about economics and business


Why would they have to do that? Were non-idol worshipers prohibited from running businesses in Arabia? Nobody forced Muhammad to go around claiming to be the Apostle of Allah and that every other god is a piece of crap. He brought contempt upon himself with his stupidity and everyone who joined him in his lunacy brought contempt upon themselves. The Arab pagans considered themselves far above the Jews and Christians, and Muhammad wanted to bring them down to the level of a Jew or Christian. Those are crude religions having a mere one god. That is for simple minded people. Normal people know that you need different gods for different things. One god can't handle all the work. You need a few hundred of them. So obviously the highly advanced pagans would take offense to Muhammad telling them that all of their gods but one are worthless, after Allah didn't have a problem with them for centuries.

Muhammad and his followers DESERVED to be held in contempt. That's what you do with dumb people who try to bring down their own people to the level of a common Jew or Christian. Nobody likes single god worshipers. The single god always seems to favor his "prophet" over everybody else. In Muhammad's case, he claimed that his single god had raised him to the level of equal partner. Now not only do you have to believe in Allah but also Muhammad. I don't want to believe in Muhammad. I don't like believing in mere humans as if they are God. What do I need God for if Muhammad needs to be believed in? Muhammad has replaced God then, hasn't he. I have to believe in both of them but Muhammad seems to be the only one I ever hear from. So in effect Muhammad has become God himself. That's what happens when you say "believe in Allah AND HIS APOSTLE". We can only see one of them so that one becomes God for all intents and purposes. Muhammad had made himself Allah. A very ambitious guy, Muhammad was.

What do Muslims say when I point that fact out? Do you deny that the phrase "Believe in Allah and his Apostle" being in the Quran has the effect of making Muhammad himself Allah? That makes the Quran a blasphemous book. Name one other instance of a prophet of YHWH/Allah being demanded in any scripture to be believed in alongside YHWH/Allah. That had never ever happened before Muhammad. Muhammad was the first person to have the gall to do something like that. You may say that Jesus also made himself out to be equal to God. Well, he got executed for that. Same thing should have happened to Muhammad, obviously. Seems to have been a rash of people trying to raise themself to God's equal partner. By composing the Quran in the way he did, Muhammad had made himself God on earth, at least to those dumb enough to do what the Quran said. That's probably the real reason everyone hated him, because he attempted to raise himself to the level of Allah's equal partner. Even Jesus didn't claim that God said to believe in him and Jesus.

Re: I declare Islam to be false

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:16 pm
by iffo
@SAM
Robbery is robbery SAM no matter how you put it. Is a criminal act in which both Muhammad and Allah were involved.
Prophets are suppose to set good examples not horrible examples. And yes there is always economics behind theft and robbery my friend. :)
See the affect of muhammad on you SAM you are justifying robbery next you will justify murder and rape.

Re: I declare Islam to be false

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:09 pm
by skynightblaze
Sam wrote:A force of 313 persons was raised, and they marched to Badr some eighty miles from Madina.
This story is not fake Movie MARCH 313.. :D


If you look at the history then you will find that Allah send 1000 odd angels to help Muhammad in the battle but yet in the end 1000 super natural beings + 313 human beings could kill only 70 odd pagans :lol: Surely Allah is all powerful and he really send those angels :D and that is why even super natural beings could not defeat the pagans.