Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

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MesMorial
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Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by MesMorial »

Due to a disagreement with what I suppose is a Sunni, we have agreed to debate the topic.

SammerTX represents the AFFIRMATIVE viewpoint.
I represent the NEGATIVE viewpoint.


The "AussieMuslims.com Forum" just banned me after he accepted.


***


My claim is that the Qur’an prohibits ahadith as sources of law. They are examples which can be assessed by their harmony with the Book. I have in mind several verses to prove my claim, and thus I wish Sunnis to explain why they think they are Muslims.


***


“Surely this Qur’an guides to that which is most upright and gives good news to the believers who do good that they shall have a great reward.”

Qur’an 17:9


“Do they not then reflect on the Qur’an? Nay, on the hearts there are locks. Surely (as for) those who return on their backs after that guidance has become manifest to them, the Shaitan has made it a light matter to them; and He gives them respite. That is because they say to those who hate what Allah has revealed: We will obey you in some of the affairs; and Allah knows their secrets.”

Qur’an 47:24-26


“Surely those who conceal the clear proofs and the guidance that We revealed after We made it clear in the Book for men, these it is whom Allah shall curse, and those who curse shall curse them (too).”

Qur’an 2:159


(The guidance is complete in the Qur’an, and it is clear.)


“And upon Allah it rests to show the right way, and there are some deviating (ways); and if He please He would certainly guide you all aright.”

Qur’an 16:9


“Surely Ours is it to show the way.”

Qur’an 92:12


“Allah has revealed the best hadith, a book conformable in its various parts, repeating, whereat do shudder the skins of those who fear their Lord, then their skins and their hearts become pliant to the remembrance of Allah; this is Allah’s guidance, He guides with it whom He pleases; and (as for) him whom Allah makes err, there is no guide for him.”

Qur’an 39:23


(Because the guidance is in the Qur’an, and because the Qur’an guides to what is most upright, when Allah guides He does it with the Qur’an alone.)


“These are the ayat of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what hadith would they believe after Allah and His ayat?”

Qur’an 45:6


(Allah says those who reflect and those who are sure will follow nothing as a religious source except the Qur’an (45:2-6). This is because it is guidance (45:11).)


“It is not meet for a mortal that Allah should give him the Book and the wisdom and prophethood, then he should say to men: Be my servants rather than Allah’s; but rather (he would say): Be worshippers of the Lord because of your teaching the Book and your studying.”

Qur’an 3:79


“(They are) listeners of a lie, devourers of what is forbidden; therefore if they come to you, judge between them or turn aside from them, and if you turn aside from them, they shall not harm you in any way; and if you judge, judge between them with equity; surely Allah loves those who judge equitably. And how do they make you a judge and they have the Taurat wherein is Allah’s judgment? Yet they turn back after that, and these are not the believers.”

Qur’an 5:42-43


(All our knowledge of how to worship Allah comes from the Qur’an. We do not need a Messenger to help us judge by it.)


“Shall I then seek a judge other than Allah? And He it is Who has revealed to you the Book (which is) fully-detailed; and those whom We have given the Book know that it is revealed by your Lord with truth, therefore you should not be of the disputers.”

Qur’an 6:114


(The Messengers only judge by the Qur’an, and the Qur’an is fully-detailed for judgement.)


“And on the day when We will raise up in every people a witness against them from among themselves, and bring you as a witness against these-- and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit.”

Qur’an 16:89


(The Qur’an explains everything for our guidance.)


“This is because Allah has revealed the Book with the truth; and surely those who go against the Book are in a great opposition.”

Qur’an 2:176


(The Qur’an as we have it can never be contradicted or abrogated.)


“And the Messenger cries out: O my Lord! surely my people have treated this Qur’an as a forsaken thing!”

Qur’an 25:30


From this small selection of verses, I conclude that the Qur’an prohibits any other source of obligatory law. All examples and opinions should be put before the Qur’an.

According to the above, the beliefs/doctrines of Sunnis are incorrect and they are not practicing Islam.
Last edited by MesMorial on Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:51 am, edited 6 times in total.
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SammerTX
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by SammerTX »

Before I begin, I want you to clarify something.

When you make a claim, are you going to back it up with evidence or is your own personal interpretation going to over ride any facts?
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by MesMorial »

SammerTX wrote:Before I begin, I want you to clarify something.

When you make a claim, are you going to back it up with evidence or is your own personal interpretation going to over ride any facts?
I will back up what I say with verses from the Qur'an.
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by SammerTX »

You are 100% sure of that?

Ok, let us keep what you just said in mind.

Now...
My claim is that the Qur'an prohibits ahadith as sources of law.
From this small selection of verses, I conclude that the Qur'an prohibits any other source of obligatory law.
You have already contradicted yourself before we have even begun.

Explain.
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MesMorial
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by MesMorial »

I am not sure there is a contradiction. My claim stems from verses such as those I posted.

What is the contradiction you can see?
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by SammerTX »

You claim the Qu'ran forbids hadith.

The verses you cited have absolutely nothing to do with prohibitions as prohibitions were made in the city of Madinah.

The bulk of references you made, namely: Qur'an 17:9, Qur'an 39:23, Qur'an 45:6, 45:2-6, 45:11, Qur'an 6:114 were all revealed in Mecca. Halal and haram were not even institutionalized yet.

So you need to provide a direct reference from the Qu'ran that explicitly forbids hadith.

Textual critics will always tell you an explicit statement will always override an implicit one.

For example, when the Qu'ran forbids alcohol or swine it spells it out very clearly.

You need to furnish a similar verse that spells out that hadith is forbidden for the believers.

What you have done is not only give an implicit reference, but one that is not even relevant to your originating argument.

You will need to provide a more factual and historically accurate reference to substantiate your argument.
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MesMorial
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by MesMorial »

You claim the Qu'ran forbids hadith.
Correct.
The verses you cited have absolutely nothing to do with prohibitions as prohibitions were made in the city of Madinah.
I am talking about the Qur’an that we have today.
The bulk of references you made, namely: Qur'an 17:9, Qur'an 39:23, Qur'an 45:6, 45:2-6, 45:11, Qur'an 6:114 were all revealed in Mecca. Halal and haram were not even institutionalized yet.
I am talking about the Qur’an that we have today.
So you need to provide a direct reference from the Qu'ran that explicitly forbids hadith.
See my first post.
Textual critics will always tell you an explicit statement will always override an implicit one.
I am talking about the Qur’an that we have today.
What you have done is not only give an implicit reference, but one that is not even relevant to your originating argument.
I am talking about the Qur’an that we have today.
For example, when the Qu'ran forbids alcohol or swine it spells it out very clearly.
See my first post.
You will need to provide a more factual and historically accurate reference to substantiate your argument.
I am talking about the Qur’an that we have today.
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by SammerTX »

That's it?

That's all you can come up with?

I am talking about the Qu'ran we have today as well. It's the same one as I was talking about above.

The facts stand - in Islamic jurisprudence, ahkaam (rulings) are derived by examining the text, context and application.

I am telling you very clearly those references you gave are not, never have been and cannot be used as sources of legislation since they are instructive in nature, not lesgislative.

What you are doing is trying to impart your personal spin on a text that was never used in that manner.

Your "debate' has failed before it even started my friend.

Looking forward to a more meaningful response.
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MesMorial
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by MesMorial »

SammerTX wrote:That's it?

That's all you can come up with?

I am talking about the Qu'ran we have today as well. It's the same one as I was talking about above.

The facts stand - in Islamic jurisprudence, ahkaam (rulings) are derived by examining the text, context and application.

I am telling you very clearly those references you gave are not, never have been and cannot be used as sources of legislation since they are instructive in nature, not lesgislative.

What you are doing is trying to impart your personal spin on a text that was never used in that manner.

Your "debate' has failed before it even started my friend.

Looking forward to a more meaningful response.
I provided 5:42-43 and 6:114 which show us that the Qur'an is a Book of principles. Thus in all aspects of legislation, we will apply the principles of the Qur'an. It is the "constitution" of all Islamic societies, therefore in leglisative matters it can never be over-ridden.


"And the Messenger cries out: O my Lord! surely my people have treated this Qur'an as a forsaken thing!"

Qur'an 25:30


The Qur'an tells us that Messengers and all Muslims only use the Qur'an as their source of law. All "halals" and "harams" are dealt with directly or principally in the Qur'an (e.g. 6:145).
Last edited by MesMorial on Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by SammerTX »

You've unraveled at the seams in just 10 minutes of dialogue.

I sincerely thought you were going to offer something worth my time.

I really did.

However, it's abundantly clear to me you have very little understanding of the Qu'ran, its rules and how they are derived, historical context and many other facets critical to engaging in any type of fruitful discussion.

As such, it is not conducive to even continue when you've tripped at the first hurdle then compound the problem by continuing to randomly quote irrelevant texts to back your errant position.

Thanks for the "debate", but until you can demonstrate a deeper and more educated understanding of the material, we will go in circles since you will be speaking strictly from your mind, not facts and ignore what the sources actually say as opposed to what you think.

If you wish to pursue this after you have acquired a little more knowledge, you know where to find me.

But at this point, I'm done with you.
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by MesMorial »

SammerTX wrote:You've unraveled at the seams in just 10 minutes of dialogue.

I sincerely thought you were going to offer something worth my time.

I really did.

However, it's abundantly clear to me you have very little understanding of the Qu'ran, its rules and how they are derived, historical context and many other facets critical to engaging in any type of fruitful discussion.

As such, it is not conducive to even continue when you've tripped at the first hurdle then compound the problem by continuing to randomly quote irrelevant texts to back your errant position.

Thanks for the "debate", but until you can demonstrate a deeper and more educated understanding of the material, we will go in circles since you will be speaking strictly from your mind, not facts and ignore what the sources actually say as opposed to what you think.

If you wish to pursue this after you have acquired a little more knowledge, you know where to find me.

But at this point, I'm done with you.
Thankyou for demonstrating the relationship between ahadith and Islam.
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by MesMorial »

My opponent's idea was that there is no direct statement prohibiting ahadith in the Qur'an. I claim from the logic of the above that this is false, and secondly that there were no ahadith in the time of the Prophet thus sufficient precautions were taken by God to forbid them.

Cheers.
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by frankie »

MesMorial:
Just a quick question.How do Muslims know how to emulate their prophet Mohammed,as prescribed in the Quran?
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by KhaliL »

_________________________________________________
MesMorial wrote:My opponent's idea was that there is no direct statement prohibiting ahadith in the Qur'an. I claim from the logic of the above that this is false, and secondly that there were no ahadith in the time of the Prophet thus sufficient precautions were taken by God to forbid them.

Cheers.
Hello MesMorial,

What exactly is Hadith in your understanding? It looks like you have not paid heed to your opponent’s arguments. Anyway, you cannot have a Qur’an independent of Ahadith. To know of your Qur’an, you have to rely on a lot of Ahadith.

Can you deny this? I am sure you can’t because I don’t think the copy of Qur’an with you is not the same copy that is ejected from the first heaven and found its way directly to your nearest shelf. .
How can you know of your Qur’an without supporting sources?

Cheers
Khalil
(I was absent for a long time in this forum and will remain absent until my living conditions are getting better. I just paid a visit to the forum and found this interesting. I hope you answer my question and someone like skynightblaze carries on with it…)
yeezevee
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by yeezevee »

KhaliL FarieL wrote:_________________________________________________
MesMorial wrote:My opponent's idea was that there is no direct statement prohibiting ahadith in the Qur'an. I claim from the logic of the above that this is false, and secondly that there were no ahadith in the time of the Prophet thus sufficient precautions were taken by God to forbid them.

Cheers.
Hello MesMorial,

"you cannot have a Qur’an independent of Ahadith. To know of your Qur’an, you have to rely on Ahadith"

Cheers
Khalil
So glad to hear from KhaliL FarieL, and those word sounds like verse from Modern Prophet on Islam.. lol..

But we have plenty of people like this one to run against, and they have millions of dollars support from Islamic Kings to do such activities Khalil., Yes.. some one has to sacrifice... These Idiots who spends billions of dollars/rupees.. whatever on controlling Islamic terrorism if they could spend ).1% on sites like these and support some dedicated ex-Muslim to that cause and freedom of expression+ free press, this so-called Islamic terror could have been done with in 5 years..

My best wishes to you Khalil.. Giving up is not an option for the sake of humanity and for the sake of next generation..

well on the way let us get some links on that issue of Qur’an independent of Ahadith

1). What Is the Significance of Hadith in Islam? By Sheikh Ahmad Kutty

2).Qur'an only Islam - Why it is not possible

3). Can a Muslim Follow the Quran without the Hadith

4).My disgust with Quranists_Unstoppable Struggles .. good one.

5). Absurdities of Hadith and Muslims' Denial by Ali Sina
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MesMorial
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by MesMorial »

frankie wrote:MesMorial:
Just a quick question.How do Muslims know how to emulate their prophet Mohammed,as prescribed in the Quran?
Maybe you did not read the debate.
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by MesMorial »

KhaliL FarieL wrote:_________________________________________________
MesMorial wrote:My opponent's idea was that there is no direct statement prohibiting ahadith in the Qur'an. I claim from the logic of the above that this is false, and secondly that there were no ahadith in the time of the Prophet thus sufficient precautions were taken by God to forbid them.

Cheers.
Hello MesMorial,

What exactly is Hadith in your understanding? It looks like you have not paid heed to your opponent’s arguments. Anyway, you cannot have a Qur’an independent of Ahadith. To know of your Qur’an, you have to rely on a lot of Ahadith.

Can you deny this? I am sure you can’t because I don’t think the copy of Qur’an with you is not the same copy that is ejected from the first heaven and found its way directly to your nearest shelf. .
How can you know of your Qur’an without supporting sources?

Cheers
Khalil
(I was absent for a long time in this forum and will remain absent until my living conditions are getting better. I just paid a visit to the forum and found this interesting. I hope you answer my question and someone like skynightblaze carries on with it…)
Sorry I did not check this for some time.


The Sunni says: “If you deny ahadith, you deny the Qur’an because they come from the same people.”

Firstly, the primary hadith-collectors discarded over 99% of their original collection. Secondly, they could not have undertaken sufficient research using camels and dead people. Thirdly (and consequently), there is no evidence of their biographical research. Fourthly, it wouldn’t matter because the Qur’an says we must follow only the Qur’an. Fifthly, hadith-chains are by definition broken because the beginning does not meet the end (thus the “science of hadith” does not meet its own criterion). Sixthly, there is the most important point:

Religion is based on one’s own responsibility and acceptance.


“Say: If you see that it is from God, and you disbelieve it, who is in greater error…?”

Qur’an 41:52


Faith is about what you see, not what another human (whoever) sees or says. Nowhere does the Qur’an appeal to reliability of humans in assessing its value.


“And you did not recite before it any book, nor did you transcribe one with your right hand, for then would the falsifiers doubt. Nay! these are signs clear in the breasts of those who are granted knowledge.”

Qur’an 29:4


The reception of the Qur’an is its own test. The word “nay” rejects the notion that people should look for external excuses (e.g. the Messenger’s personal activities) to reject the Book. The notion of looking to human reliability is thus refuted.


“And they say: Why are not signs sent down upon him from his Lord? Say: The signs are only with God, and I am just a plain warner.”

Qur’an 29:50


Any reason to accept the Qur’an will come from God.


“Is it not enough for them that We have revealed to you the Book which is recited to them?”

Qur’an 29:51


Again, the reception of the Qur’an is its own test. Comparing the information in the Qur’an with one’s knowledge/perception is the accepted method:


“We will soon show them Our signs in the universe and in their own souls, until it becomes quite clear to them that it is the truth.”

Qur’an 41:53


We must rely on our own knowledge/perceptions of our environment, as well as what we recognise as truth (e.g. morality) within ourselves.


“Do they not then reflect on the Qur’an? Nay, on the hearts there are locks.”

Qur’an 47:24


“Say: O my Lord! increase me in knowledge.”

Qur’an 20:114


Religion must be an isnad (transmission-chain) consisting only of the individual and God. Placing faith in anything except the word of God and one’s intellect, experience and conclusions is the opposite of what the Qur’an tells us to do.


“In what hadith would they believe after God and His ayat?”

Qur’an 45:6


“And follow not that of which you have not the knowledge; surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that.”

Qur’an 17:36


To say that we are required to seek religious knowledge from other humans is to set up intermediaries. Intermediaries require faith in humans, which is impossible in a religion. It ceases to be “Religion”, becoming “cult”.

The Sunni declares that to reject ahadith is to reject God’s word. Ahadith characters, narrators and recorders are not God; that they are written by the same people is an unproven assumption. The Sunni has religious faith in this unproven assumption, and then the nature of such ahadith must be proven (i.e. Qur’anic or un-Qur’anic). Did not the Prophet oversee the recording?

If the Qur’an were recorded accurately, it follows that as a Message to all (24:28, 42:7) it was widely distributed to many. If someone assumes (without logic or evidence) that it was not recorded accurately, there can certainly be no Sunni religion for that person. It just makes the sources of ahadith more unreliable. If the Qur’an were widely distributed, it follows that it was passed on by many and rendered difficult/impossible to change (confirmed by early manuscripts).

The Sunni argument is irrelevant, since God guaranteed the preservation of the Qur’an (15:9, 41:42). If the Sunni questions this, he/she questions the Qur’an. Without adequate logic or evidence, this is an isolated matter which can in no way validate “sunna”. A person can never provide 100% proof of God, and likewise a person can never provide 100% proof that the Qur’an is preserved. It is based upon an individual’s evaluation, especially given the absence of disproof.

“Qur’an-alone” Muslims accept the Qur’an based on the Qur’an and individual perception and knowledge. The Sunni accepts the Qur’an based on individual faith in scholars, recorders, narrators, hearsay and human opinion and action. The Sunni believes in God only because other people instruct him/her to. This God is the God of Sunnism, which is built from human hearsay, opinion and desire.

The God of Sunnism exists because of scholars, and thus scholars are the Sunni God. Sunnis must decide whether they accept the Qur’an (and thus verses 15:9 and 41:42), then reject Sunnism either way.

You cannot confirm something better with something weaker.
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MesMorial
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by MesMorial »

KhaliL FarieL wrote:_________________________________________________
MesMorial wrote:My opponent's idea was that there is no direct statement prohibiting ahadith in the Qur'an. I claim from the logic of the above that this is false, and secondly that there were no ahadith in the time of the Prophet thus sufficient precautions were taken by God to forbid them.

Cheers.
Hello MesMorial,

What exactly is Hadith in your understanding? It looks like you have not paid heed to your opponent’s arguments. Anyway, you cannot have a Qur’an independent of Ahadith. To know of your Qur’an, you have to rely on a lot of Ahadith.

Can you deny this? I am sure you can’t because I don’t think the copy of Qur’an with you is not the same copy that is ejected from the first heaven and found its way directly to your nearest shelf. .
How can you know of your Qur’an without supporting sources?

Cheers
Khalil
(I was absent for a long time in this forum and will remain absent until my living conditions are getting better. I just paid a visit to the forum and found this interesting. I hope you answer my question and someone like skynightblaze carries on with it…)
Sorry I did not check this for some time.


The Sunni says: “If you deny ahadith, you deny the Qur’an because they come from the same people.”

Firstly, the primary hadith-collectors discarded over 99% of their original collection. Secondly, they could not have undertaken sufficient research using camels and dead people. Thirdly (and consequently), there is no evidence of their biographical research. Fourthly, it wouldn’t matter because the Qur’an says we must follow only the Qur’an. Fifthly, hadith-chains are by definition broken because the beginning does not meet the end (thus the “science of hadith” does not meet its own criterion). Sixthly, there is the most important point:

Religion is based on one’s own responsibility and acceptance.


“Say: If you see that it is from God, and you disbelieve it, who is in greater error…?”

Qur’an 41:52


Faith is about what you see, not what another human (whoever) sees or says. Nowhere does the Qur’an appeal to reliability of humans in assessing its value.


“And you did not recite before it any book, nor did you transcribe one with your right hand, for then would the falsifiers doubt. Nay! these are signs clear in the breasts of those who are granted knowledge.”

Qur’an 29:4


The reception of the Qur’an is its own test. The word “nay” rejects the notion that people should look for external excuses (e.g. the Messenger’s personal activities) to reject the Book. The notion of looking to human reliability is thus refuted.


“And they say: Why are not signs sent down upon him from his Lord? Say: The signs are only with God, and I am just a plain warner.”

Qur’an 29:50


Any reason to accept the Qur’an will come from God.


“Is it not enough for them that We have revealed to you the Book which is recited to them?”

Qur’an 29:51


Again, the reception of the Qur’an is its own test. Comparing the information in the Qur’an with one’s knowledge/perception is the accepted method:


“We will soon show them Our signs in the universe and in their own souls, until it becomes quite clear to them that it is the truth.”

Qur’an 41:53


We must rely on our own knowledge/perceptions of our environment, as well as what we recognise as truth (e.g. morality) within ourselves.


“Do they not then reflect on the Qur’an? Nay, on the hearts there are locks.”

Qur’an 47:24


“Say: O my Lord! increase me in knowledge.”

Qur’an 20:114


Religion must be an isnad (transmission-chain) consisting only of the individual and God. Placing faith in anything except the word of God and one’s intellect, experience and conclusions is the opposite of what the Qur’an tells us to do.


“In what hadith would they believe after God and His ayat?”

Qur’an 45:6


“And follow not that of which you have not the knowledge; surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that.”

Qur’an 17:36


To say that we are required to seek religious knowledge from other humans is to set up intermediaries. Intermediaries require faith in humans, which is impossible in a religion. It ceases to be “Religion”, becoming “cult”.

The Sunni declares that to reject ahadith is to reject God’s word. Ahadith characters, narrators and recorders are not God; that they are written by the same people is an unproven assumption. The Sunni has religious faith in this unproven assumption, and then the nature of such ahadith must be proven (i.e. Qur’anic or un-Qur’anic). Did not the Prophet oversee the recording?

If the Qur’an were recorded accurately, it follows that as a Message to all (24:28, 42:7) it was widely distributed to many. If someone assumes (without logic or evidence) that it was not recorded accurately, there can certainly be no Sunni religion for that person. It just makes the sources of ahadith more unreliable. If the Qur’an were widely distributed, it follows that it was passed on by many and rendered difficult/impossible to change (confirmed by early manuscripts).

The Sunni argument is irrelevant, since God guaranteed the preservation of the Qur’an (15:9, 41:42). If the Sunni questions this, he/she questions the Qur’an. Without adequate logic or evidence, this is an isolated matter which can in no way validate “sunna”. A person can never provide 100% proof of God, and likewise a person can never provide 100% proof that the Qur’an is preserved. It is based upon an individual’s evaluation, especially given the absence of disproof.

“Qur’an-alone” Muslims accept the Qur’an based on the Qur’an and individual perception and knowledge. The Sunni accepts the Qur’an based on individual faith in scholars, recorders, narrators, hearsay and human opinion and action. The Sunni believes in God only because other people instruct him/her to. This God is the God of Sunnism, which is built from human hearsay, opinion and desire.

The God of Sunnism exists because of scholars, and thus scholars are the Sunni God. Sunnis must decide whether they accept the Qur’an (and thus verses 15:9 and 41:42), then reject Sunnism either way.

You cannot confirm something better with something weaker.
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MesMorial
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by MesMorial »

yeezevee wrote:
KhaliL FarieL wrote:_________________________________________________
MesMorial wrote:My opponent's idea was that there is no direct statement prohibiting ahadith in the Qur'an. I claim from the logic of the above that this is false, and secondly that there were no ahadith in the time of the Prophet thus sufficient precautions were taken by God to forbid them.

Cheers.
Hello MesMorial,

"you cannot have a Qur’an independent of Ahadith. To know of your Qur’an, you have to rely on Ahadith"

Cheers
Khalil
So glad to hear from KhaliL FarieL, and those word sounds like verse from Modern Prophet on Islam.. lol..

But we have plenty of people like this one to run against, and they have millions of dollars support from Islamic Kings to do such activities Khalil., Yes.. some one has to sacrifice... These Idiots who spends billions of dollars/rupees.. whatever on controlling Islamic terrorism if they could spend ).1% on sites like these and support some dedicated ex-Muslim to that cause and freedom of expression+ free press, this so-called Islamic terror could have been done with in 5 years..

My best wishes to you Khalil.. Giving up is not an option for the sake of humanity and for the sake of next generation..

well on the way let us get some links on that issue of Qur’an independent of Ahadith

1). What Is the Significance of Hadith in Islam? By Sheikh Ahmad Kutty

2).Qur'an only Islam - Why it is not possible

3). Can a Muslim Follow the Quran without the Hadith

4).My disgust with Quranists_Unstoppable Struggles .. good one.

5). Absurdities of Hadith and Muslims' Denial by Ali Sina

Well I would challenge yeezevee but he is a no-goer when it comes to going.

Cheers.
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yeezevee
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Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:17 pm

Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by yeezevee »

KhaliL FarieL wrote:_________________________________________________
MesMorial wrote:My opponent's idea was that there is no direct statement prohibiting ahadith in the Qur'an. I claim from the logic of the above that this is false, and secondly that there were no ahadith in the time of the Prophet thus sufficient precautions were taken by God to forbid them.

Cheers.
Hello MesMorial,

"you cannot have a Qur’an independent of Ahadith. To know of your Qur’an, you have to rely on Ahadith"

Cheers
Khalil
Spoiler! :
yeezevee: So glad to hear from KhaliL FarieL, and those word sounds like verse from Modern Prophet on Islam.. lol..

But we have plenty of people like this one to run against, and they have millions of dollars support from Islamic Kings to do such activities Khalil., Yes.. some one has to sacrifice... These Idiots who spends billions of dollars/rupees.. whatever on controlling Islamic terrorism if they could spend ).1% on sites like these and support some dedicated ex-Muslim to that cause and freedom of expression+ free press, this so-called Islamic terror could have been done with in 5 years..
My best wishes to you Khalil.. Giving up is not an option for the sake of humanity and for the sake of next generation..
MesMorial: Well I would challenge yeezevee but he is a no-goer when it comes to going.

Cheers.
Hi MesMorial., what is there to argue in hadith when people are questioning Quran/Muhammad and stories in OT & NT itself from which Quran gets these stories??

But you have to realize taking Quran alone as a book of guidance for 21st century is like using donkey for your transport to travel around the globe when you have supersonic planes over your head. Off cousre you can not explain any thing in Quran without the help of hadith or sunnah or whatever you call., For example the verses that contains names like..

Zayd, Zaynab, Ya'uq, Wadd, Ezra... etc,,etc..

with best regards
yeezevee
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