Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

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MesMorial
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by MesMorial »

Dear Yeezevee;

If you miss the point enough, you can indeed fly (on your plane) anywhere.


Following are explanations of the relevance of Surat 105, 111 and 112. People often ask when and why such chapters were revealed, so this lesson is a demonstration of seeing the Qur’an for what it actually is.

***

SURA 105

The Qur'an is a Book of moral and spiritual guidance (e.g. 7:52, 17:9), similitudes/examples (e.g. 3:61, 17:89, 66:1-5), narratives (e.g. 12:3), parables (e.g. 14:24) and real-time Revelations (e.g. 9:5, 33:59). All of these attributes contribute to the guiding quality of its Message.

All Revelation permanent to its addresses is included (e.g. 33:50). Where required, context is provided by the Qur'an itself.

Sura 105 is an example of God's power. This is confirmed by the fact it actually describes what happened. Although having other evidence of this event would make the example more potent, it is obvious that the Qur'an does not go into detail because 1) it is about God's power and 2) humans would naturally want to correlate the description with actual events. Ibn Ishaq is probably not the best source of tafsir here.


“Do you not see how Allah has created the seven heavens, one above another...” (71:15)


Obviously a person with only the Qur'an could not see "seven heavens", just as a person with only the Qur'an cannot confirm the background of Sura 105 beyond example. We are expected to seek knowledge to confirm things, but the important point is the example being painted.



SURA 111

Again, knowing the exact identity of Abu Lahab and his actions would make the example more effective. However, readers would be expected to confirm any details if they so desired, thus the importance of this surah lies in the demonstration of the powerlessness of humans (as opposed to God’s power in Sura 105). Abu Lahab (and his wife) obviously fell into the category of requiring forgiveness for sins, but would not be forgiven since they would not repent.

God forgives those who repent (8:38, 25:70, 85:10-11 etc.), thus in this way it is a prophecy. The point of the chapter is that the wealth and deeds of a human will not save him or her if he or she earns God’s displeasure. It thus also serves as a warning to others.



SURA 112

The Qur'an is a Book of moral and spiritual guidance (e.g. 7:52, 17:9), similitudes/examples (e.g. 3:61, 17:89, 66:1-5), narratives (e.g. 12:3), parables (e.g. 14:24) and real-time Revelations (e.g. 9:5, 33:59). All of these attributes contribute to the guiding quality of its Message.

All Revelation permanent to its addresses is included (e.g. 33:50). Where required, context is provided by the Qur'an itself. Sura 112 is an emphasis on the oneness of Allah. It is something we can recite in prayer and it is an applicable Message to all people.

Not all verses in the Qur'an are instructive. They may be non-instructive and apply to all (even for the sake of some), because God repeats/diversifies ayat:


“Thus do We repeat/diversify the communications for a people who give thanks.” (7:58)


Moreover, not everything revealed applies to everyone for all times and places. Specific instructions were given to the Prophet (33:50), for example. All permanent law-binding Revelation addressed to everyone is in the Book, and this is consistent with its purpose. Sura 112 may have been revealed to specific people, but it is something applicable to everyone. The message of God's oneness is being repeated/presented in a variant way. The Qur'an is guidance, and whatever it says will not contradict its Message or its purpose. Not every verse is a part of the instruction, but the Message is in the Book. If we follow its instructions and take heed of the instructive and non-instructive wisdom, we will be Muslims.

***

33:37

The argument is that the Prophet concealed/knew something which Allah would later reveal.


RESPONSE

It is possible that the Prophet was concealing his feelings for Zayd’s wife. If he did in fact know that Zayd would divorce, then this knowledge would have been given to him as due preparation. For example, 33:37 makes it clear that Allah caused Muhammad to marry Zayd’s wife as a reassurance for the other Muslims (who might wish to marry the divorced wives of their adopted sons). Thus this could be “interactive Revelation” with the purpose of easing Muslims out of an old tradition. The Prophet was reluctant to marry her for social reasons, so Allah prepared him to be the instrument of change.

It should be noted that any Revelation external to the Qur’an is nothing new. Ayat such as 10:87 and 20:77 prove that commands can be given external to the Message. This always occurs in a situation of need or to set an example (again it can be called “interactive Revelation”). All permanent law-binding (directed to all believers) Revelation is in the Qur’an.

***

Cheers.
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Ozes
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by Ozes »

MesMorial wrote:
It is possible that the Prophet was concealing his feelings for Zayd’s wife. If he did in fact know that Zayd would divorce, then this knowledge would have been given to him as due preparation. For example, 33:37 makes it clear that Allah caused Muhammad to marry Zayd’s wife as a reassurance for the other Muslims (who might wish to marry the divorced wives of their adopted sons). Thus this could be “interactive Revelation” with the purpose of easing Muslims out of an old tradition. The Prophet was reluctant to marry her for social reasons, so Allah prepared him to be the instrument of change.

:roflmao:
~A God of mercy
Would never... inform His people war is simply a means of testing ones faith
Surah's:3:140, 3:142,3:166, 3:167, 9:16, 47:4

~.. shame compassion with the victims
Surah's:3:154, 8:17

~.. mock pacifism :
Surah's: 3:167, 47:20

~..disavow peaceful solutions:
Surah:3:156
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MesMorial
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by MesMorial »

Ozes wrote:
MesMorial wrote:
It is possible that the Prophet was concealing his feelings for Zayd’s wife. If he did in fact know that Zayd would divorce, then this knowledge would have been given to him as due preparation. For example, 33:37 makes it clear that Allah caused Muhammad to marry Zayd’s wife as a reassurance for the other Muslims (who might wish to marry the divorced wives of their adopted sons). Thus this could be “interactive Revelation” with the purpose of easing Muslims out of an old tradition. The Prophet was reluctant to marry her for social reasons, so Allah prepared him to be the instrument of change.

:roflmao:
Those were real issues. It is perhaps difficult for you to relate to, and I guess you would have a similar attitude to the themes in Greek Tragedy.
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by Ozes »

Indeed, it were different times. Although other prophets have proven to be able to withstand the vices of their day.

Question:
How do you know for what exact crimes to cut of the hand?
For which crimes would you cut of someone's hand, and for which crimes you wouldn't?
Hadith specify this, but how are you going to be sure not to mutilate the wrong guy/girl?

A link to another thread/wubsite will do.
~A God of mercy
Would never... inform His people war is simply a means of testing ones faith
Surah's:3:140, 3:142,3:166, 3:167, 9:16, 47:4

~.. shame compassion with the victims
Surah's:3:154, 8:17

~.. mock pacifism :
Surah's: 3:167, 47:20

~..disavow peaceful solutions:
Surah:3:156
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MesMorial
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by MesMorial »

Ozes wrote:Indeed, it were different times. Although other prophets have proven to be able to withstand the vices of their day.

Question:
How do you know for what exact crimes to cut of the hand?
For which crimes would you cut of someone's hand, and for which crimes you wouldn't?
Hadith specify this, but how are you going to be sure not to mutilate the wrong guy/girl?

A link to another thread/wubsite will do.
That is up to the society. 5:39 says the person can repent and reform, and unlike for adultery we can show compassion. Thus the punishment will never actually occur. It is a deterrant/warning.

The situation is conceptually similar to 4:15, where Muslims are instructed to keep women guilty of lesbianism in their homes “until death takes them” or “until Allah finds for them some other way”. Obviously this means: “for however long it takes before they are forgiven or married etc.”. The severest interpretation is subject to so many considerations that it would be virtually impossible for it to be appropriate.


“And the recompense of evil is punishment like it, but whoever forgives and amends, he shall have his reward from Allah; surely He does not love the unjust.”

Qur’an 42:40


We must judge equitably regardless (5:8), so there would not be arbitrarily harsh punishments for smaller crimes.

5:38 does state that the punishment is a recompense for what they earned, meaning the punishment should be committed only to the degree of the crime. A person’s hand/means may be cut for stealing something small, but any punishment should be as insignificant as the theft.


Basically the person will receive a "slap on the wrist" according to what they stole and whether they repented/made amends. Chopping off hands is a possible interpretation thus a possible punishment, but it is up to the judiciary (recalling relevant verses). The law would not be arbitrary, so people should know in advance.
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by MesMorial »

General note (not my own):


The Arabic word translated as “cut” in 5:38 is “iqtaa”, and it occurs fourteen other times in the same verb-form (QaTaA). With the exception of 59:5 and possibly 69:46, all other occurrences mean the non-physical or metaphorical action of “cutting off a relationship” or “ending” (2:27, 3:127, 6:45, 7:72, 8:7, 9:121, 13:25, 15:66, 22:15, 27:32, 29:29, 56:33).

The derivatives that are read in the second verb-form (QaTTaA) occur seventeen times. This form, which expresses intensity or frequency of the action, is used to mean physically cutting-off (5:33, 7:124, 20:71, 26:49, 13:31), metaphorically cutting-off (2:166, 6:94, 7:160, 7:167, 9:110, 47:15, 47:22, 21:93, 22:19, 23:53) as well as physically cutting/marking (12:31, 12:50). It is interesting to note that even though 12:31 uses the more intensive verb-form with both “cut” and “hands” together, it does not mean “cut off”. The less intensive form is employed in 5:38.

Secondly, the Arabic word for “hands” (aydi) is often used in the Qur’an in a metaphorical/metonymical manner (examples are 2:195, 2:237, 3:3, 3:73, 5:64, 6:93, 8:70, 9:29, 23:88, 28:47, 30:36, 38:45, 48:10, 48:24, 111:1), and often it has a meaning of “power”/”means”. It should also be noted that this word is in the Arabic plural meaning three or more hands, whilst only two people are referenced: the male and the female thief. Some have commented that this plural usage causes problems for the common interpretation of “hand-cutting”.

Therefore it is possible to understand the punishment for thieves in three alternative ways: (1) cutting off their hands, (2) cutting or marking their hands or (3) cutting their means to steal (or cutting their hands from committing the crime). It is up to the society to choose one of these meanings or a combination of them depending upon the severity of the crime and their ability to enforce the penalty.

However, it should be said that the only working example given by the Qur’an of theft and its punishment is in the story of Joseph, in which option 3 is done by detaining the one guilty of theft (12:73-75).

Furthermore, 12:79 makes it clear that Joseph (described in 6:84 as one of the guided and a good-doer) was acting in accordance with God's law in detaining only the one guilty of theft.

Thus, one possible meaning of 5:38 is to apply it in the manner provided by Joseph's example.
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yeezevee
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by yeezevee »

MesMorial wrote:Dear Yeezevee;

If you miss the point enough, you can indeed fly (on your plane) anywhere.
indeed you are right, in your imagination you & I can fly in an imaginative plane anywhere in any direction MesMorial., in fact your words
It is possible that the Prophet was concealing his feelings for Zayd’s wife. If he did in fact know that Zayd would divorce, then this knowledge would have been given to him as due preparation.
yes anything is possible..
For example, 33:37 makes it clear that Allah caused Muhammad to marry Zayd’s wife as a reassurance for the other Muslims (who might wish to marry the divorced wives of their adopted sons). Thus this could be “interactive Revelation” with the purpose of easing Muslims out of an old tradition. The Prophet was reluctant to marry her for social reasons, so Allah prepared him to be the instrument of change.
Sure Allah being the soul in-charge of everything in the universe with billions of planets and billions of living things and a billion people, billion things to look after "Allah caused Muhammad to marry Zayd’s wife"...
It should be noted that any Revelation external to the Qur’an is nothing new. Ayat such as 10:87 and 20:77 prove that commands can be given external to the Message. This always occurs in a situation of need or to set an example (again it can be called “interactive Revelation”). All permanent law-binding (directed to all believers) Revelation is in the Qur’an.
Yes Muhammad's Marriages and women, what a great example to the world and to the humanity. We can imagine and write any nonsense we want in the name of Allah MesMorial..
.........
SURA 111
SURA 112..............
“Do you not see how Allah has created the seven heavens, one above another...” (71:15)
and that nonsense of seven heavens has to do with Muhammad lusting after zainab and forcing a divorce on Zaid si that my man can marry/sleep with voluptuous lady .. All that is Allah Plan.. we can discuss surah111 and surah 112 ..all verses., but after that, sure we will miss the point enough so we can indeed fly (on your plane) anywhere. Yes MesMorial. in our imagination you & I can fly in an imaginative plane anywhere in any direction.. It is all Allah Plan.

Any ways the point of discussion was
you can not explain any thing in Quran without the help of hadith or sunnah or whatever you call., For example the verses that contains names like..

Zayd, Zaynab, Ya'uq, Wadd, Ezra... etc,,etc..
MesMorial you have to realize, to explain what is there in Quran one must resort to hadith/sunnah, write Tafsir on stories around Arabia, stuff from OT & NT ..

with best wishes
yeezevee
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by MesMorial »

indeed you are right, in your imagination you & I can fly in an imaginative plane anywhere in any direction MesMorial., in fact your words
But those were not my words, Yeezevee. You were just imagining words which weren’t there…and there you go (fly).
Sure Allah being the soul in-charge of everything in the universe with billions of planets and billions of living things and a billion people, billion things to look after "Allah caused Muhammad to marry Zayd’s wife"...
Well it’s the little things that count.
Yes Muhammad's Marriages and women, what a great example to the world and to the humanity. We can imagine and write any nonsense we want in the name of Allah MesMorial..
Well that was not the nature of the example. If you treat a lesson as a puppet-show, what do you expect to learn?
and that nonsense of seven heavens has to do with Muhammad lusting after zainab and forcing a divorce on Zaid si that my man can marry/sleep with voluptuous lady .. All that is Allah Plan.. we can discuss surah111 and surah 112 ..all verses., but after that, sure we will miss the point enough so we can indeed fly (on your plane) anywhere. Yes MesMorial. in our imagination you & I can fly in an imaginative plane anywhere in any direction.. It is all Allah Plan.
But I never linked 7 heavens with marriage. I was demonstrating (as per your actual original point) that the Qur’an uses examples and spoke directly to the people. Zainab was a part of the example, just like the stories of previous people were examples. The Muslims at the time had to learn about who they were, just as we today can try to find out individual biographies (which are not actually a part of the point).
MesMorial you have to realize, to explain what is there in Quran one must resort to hadith/sunnah, write Tafsir on stories around Arabia, stuff from OT & NT ..

with best wishes
yeezevee
Don't feed me that. Firstly you are confused as to what sunna is, and secondly if that is your conclusion, it is explained by your confused point-mixing above.

The “Qur’an-alone” approach is the only logical and sensible approach (to Islam), but it is also the one that you do not want to respect. It is no wonder; the likeness is to that of a system which exists on one viewpoint. Change it, the chain-reaction destroys it.

Cheers.
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by HomerJay »

“Thus do We repeat/diversify the communications for a people who give thanks.” (7:58)
The Ten Commandments (as written by Mohammed)

1 - YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME
2 - YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF AN IDOL
3 - YOU SHALL NOT TAKE THE NAME OF GOD IN VAIN
4 - REMEMBER THE SABBATH DAY TO KEEP IT HOLY
5 - HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER
6 - YOU SHALL NOT MURDER
7 - YOU SHALL NOT TAKE THE NAME OF GOD IN VAIN
8 - YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY
9 - YOU SHALL NOT STEAL
10 - REMEMBER THE SABBATH DAY TO KEEP IT VERY HOLY
11 - YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME
12 - I'M NOT KIDDING, YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME
13 - YOU SHALL NOT LIE
10 - YOU SHALL NOT COVET
14 - YOU SHALL NOT TAKE THE NAME OF GOD IN VAIN, GODDAMMIT
15 - YOU SHALL NOT ADMIT ADULTERY
16 - YOU SHALL NOT STEAL
17 - HAVE I MENTIONED YOU SHALL NOT TAKE THE NAME OF GOD IN VAIN?
18 - REMEMBER THE SABBATH DAY TO KEEP IT PRETTY DARN HOLY
19 - OH, AND NONE OF THIS STUFF APPLIES TO ALLAH'S APOSTLE
20 - YOU SHALL NOT LIE EXCESSIVELY
21 - YOU SHALL NOT WITNESS THY BARE NEIGHBOR
22 - IS THAT 10 YET? I CAN'T COUNT

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yeezevee
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by yeezevee »

MesMorial wrote:

Don't feed me that.
Firstly you are confused as to what sunna is, and secondly if that is your conclusion, it is explained by your confused point-mixing above.
O.K. MesMorial, If you don't like what I am feeding let me feed you this from Allah book
2.061: And when you said: O Musa! we cannot bear with one food, therefore pray Lord on our behalf to bring forth for us out of what the earth grows, of its herbs and its cucumbers and its garlic and its lentils and its onions. He said: Will you exchange that which is better for that which is worse? Enter a city, so you will have what you ask for. And abasement and humiliation were brought down upon them, and they became deserving of Allah's wrath; this was so because they disbelieved in the communications of Allah and killed the prophets unjustly; this was so because they disobeyed and exceeded the limits.
. Well I hope you like cucumbers garlic lentils and onions

what can I say to you?? if these are the words of Allah/God., I don't know what word is not from Allah/God., every word you speak and write is from Allah/god MesMorial
The “Qur’an-alone” approach is the only logical and sensible approach (to Islam), but it is also the one that you do not want to respect. It is no wonder; the likeness is to that of a system which exists on one viewpoint. Change it, the chain-reaction destroys it.

Cheers.
when Quran itself is NOT logical and sensible, I am not sure how “Qur’an-alone” approach is only logical and sensible ?? .. Even if you think Quran is the best possible approach to Muslim and non-Muslim to live together peacefully, Quarn has enough nonsense to abuse and it needs a strict code of tafsir to explain Muslims..

But I have to agree with you., If we could BURN ALL THE HADITH and force Quran only Islam on Muslims and put any one who preaching Hadith and Sunnah in Jail, then we can control some part of nonsense that goes on in Mosques such as this fellow..



Last edited by yeezevee on Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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MesMorial
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by MesMorial »

when Quran itself is NOT logical and sensible, I am not sure how “Qur’an-alone” approach is only logical and sensible ?? .. Even if you think Quran is the best possible approach to Muslim and non-Muslim to live together peacefully, Quarn has enough nonsense to abuse and it needs a strict code of tafsir to explain Muslims..

But I have to agree with you., If we could BURN ALL THE HADITH and force Qiran only Islam on Muslims and put any one who preaching Hadith and Sunnah in Jail, then we can control some part of nonsense that goes on in Mosques such as this fellow..
It is logical and sensible according to what it says it is. That's to say it is a source of religion, and it functions fully as a source of religion.

Therefore Qur'an-alone is the sensible and logical approach to Islam (which is what I said).
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by yeezevee »

MesMorial wrote:
when Quran itself is NOT logical and sensible, I am not sure how “Qur’an-alone” approach is only logical and sensible ?? .. Even if you think Quran is the best possible approach to Muslim and non-Muslim to live together peacefully, Quarn has enough nonsense to abuse and it needs a strict code of tafsir to explain Muslims..

But I have to agree with you., If we could BURN ALL THE HADITH and force Quran only Islam on Muslims and put any one who preaching Hadith and Sunnah in Jail, then we can control some part of nonsense that goes on in Mosques such as this fellow..
It is logical and sensible according to what it says it is. That's to say it is a source of religion, and it functions fully as a source of religion.

Therefore Qur'an-alone is the sensible and logical approach to Islam (which is what I said).
well you came a long way to write that blue colored statement., But then I see this from you
P.S. I will express again in no unclear terms that I am no longer "a Muslim"._ MesMorial
., And I am not sure how to respond to your post..lol...

Anyways going back to your response, Yes in the present times that appears to be a logical approach and I slightly modify those blue words of your as
Therefore in the present times Qur'an-alone is the sensible and logical approach to Islam and Muslims
But by such words what are you doing is buying some time for Muslims to get rid of Islam.

And that can only happen Provided Islam becomes a personal religion of some one exploring Quran as science manual or a poetry manual or manual of hygiene, NOT as a book of Allah/God and NOT as a law giving book to society and NOT as state sponsored ruler controlled religion.

The unfortunate thing is Quran has enough political verses in it (Much more than what you see in OT &NT)that it tries to control human behavior right from the childhood to give the power to the rulers hence it was always controlled by the rulers. This state/ruler sponsored Islam by getting protection from rulers and projecting it as God's religion, sooner or later the state and the society will get in to troubles.

Anyways I visited your channel.. Please read The Tawasin of Mansur Al-Hallaj That has more sensible words and verses than you will ever find in Quran.
Mansur believed in union with the Divine, that God was within him, and that he and God had become one and the same. Mansur was cut into many pieces because in the state of ecstasy he exclaimed Ana al Haq "I am the truth". He was executed in public in Baghdad. They cut him into pieces and then they burnt his remains. He kept repeating "I am the Truth" as they kept cutting his arms, legs, tongue and finally his head. He was smiling, even as they chopped off his head.
and that is what Wiki writes about Mansur Al-Hallaj...



A movie is coming out soon on his life that is Written by Peter Farbridge and Soheil Parsa; Directed by Soheil Parsa; Video Photographed by Naire Bahjat;

with best wishes
yeezevee
Last edited by yeezevee on Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by MesMorial »

I would like to see it. I also wanted to see "The Picture of Dorian Gray" but it never came out here.

With best;
Cheers.
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by Ozes »

MesMorial wrote:
Ozes wrote:Indeed, it were different times. Although other prophets have proven to be able to withstand the vices of their day.

Question:
How do you know for what exact crimes to cut of the hand?
For which crimes would you cut of someone's hand, and for which crimes you wouldn't?
Hadith specify this, but how are you going to be sure not to mutilate the wrong guy/girl?

A link to another thread/wubsite will do.
That is up to the society. 5:39 says the person can repent and reform, and unlike for adultery we can show compassion.
Exactly, it is up to society... its pure interpretation.
So if a woman cheats, or is raped and can't prove it by providing 4 witnesses, she's a goner. Great reform. The problem with your reform is that you do not give a damn about people suffering under Islam, the problem you have with Islam is you can't stand the criticism.

How will they interpret it?
Probably by finding the material which atleast gives a indication into what Muhammed said on these matters. Or they will simply follow tradition, another way where non-muslims and ' sinners' will suffer.
~A God of mercy
Would never... inform His people war is simply a means of testing ones faith
Surah's:3:140, 3:142,3:166, 3:167, 9:16, 47:4

~.. shame compassion with the victims
Surah's:3:154, 8:17

~.. mock pacifism :
Surah's: 3:167, 47:20

~..disavow peaceful solutions:
Surah:3:156
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by charleslemartel »

yeezevee wrote:Please read The Tawasin of Mansur Al-Hallaj That has more sensible words and verses than you will ever find in Quran.
Mansur appears to talk like a truly enlightened man. I will read the material at the link you provided, Yeezevee. Thanks.
Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
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MesMorial
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by MesMorial »

Ozes wrote:
MesMorial wrote:
Ozes wrote:Indeed, it were different times. Although other prophets have proven to be able to withstand the vices of their day.

Question:
How do you know for what exact crimes to cut of the hand?
For which crimes would you cut of someone's hand, and for which crimes you wouldn't?
Hadith specify this, but how are you going to be sure not to mutilate the wrong guy/girl?

A link to another thread/wubsite will do.
That is up to the society. 5:39 says the person can repent and reform, and unlike for adultery we can show compassion.
Exactly, it is up to society... its pure interpretation.
So if a woman cheats, or is raped and can't prove it by providing 4 witnesses, she's a goner. Great reform. The problem with your reform is that you do not give a damn about people suffering under Islam, the problem you have with Islam is you can't stand the criticism.

How will they interpret it?
Probably by finding the material which atleast gives a indication into what Muhammed said on these matters. Or they will simply follow tradition, another way where non-muslims and ' sinners' will suffer.
No, the best interpretation is the most Qur'anic. The interpretation in the ahadith is not as good because its conclusion cannot actually be traced. The onus is on you to come up with something better, or accept the answer to your question.


AGAIN:

The sensible approach is to give the thief adequate chance to repent and make amends (as per 5:39). This way even if the government opted for “chopping-off the hand”, it would literally be the thief’s choice to suffer this punishment or reform and make amends.

Unlike for adultery (24:2), compassion from the judge is not forbidden:

A Muslim society cannot punish a hungry person for stealing food since letting a member of the society go hungry is a bigger crime than the act of stealing. Such a society would demonstrate the characteristics of a lack of appreciation (107:1-7, 89:17-20, 90:6-20). Considering theft solely as an individual crime and advocating the severest possible interpretation (all times) is neither fair nor consistent with the scripture. Moreover, the degree of repentance is a consideration when deciding penalties:


“But whoever repents after his iniquity and reforms (himself), then surely Allah will turn to him (mercifully); surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.” (5:39)


(The “turning of God mercifully” means that the punishment will not be inflicted since it is described as “God’s punishment” in 5:38).

The situation is conceptually similar to 4:15, where Muslims are instructed to keep women guilty of lesbianism in their homes “until death takes them” or “until Allah finds for them some other way”. Obviously this means: “for however long it takes before they repent, are forgiven or married etc.”. The severest interpretation is subject to so many considerations that it would be virtually impossible for it to be appropriate.

Additionally, punishment should be equivalent to the crime (2:190, 5:8, 5:45, 5:77, 17:33, 42:40).

Thus, with the consideration that the offender can repent/reform, mitigating factors, the degree of the crime and compassionate discretion, the chopping of hands is a very unlikely verdict. The instruction is in the Qur’an as a warning and as a potential punishment. Since the law cannot be arbitrary (5:8), the state should make penalties for crimes very clear.

For example, the number of donuts needed to be stolen before hand-chopping becomes possible should be made clear. If a person steals the necessary quota, but repents/makes amends, there will be no hand-chopping.
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yeezevee
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by yeezevee »

charleslemartel wrote:
yeezevee wrote:Please read The Tawasin of Mansur Al-Hallaj That has more sensible words and verses than you will ever find in Quran.
Mansur appears to talk like a truly enlightened man. I will read the material at the link you provided, Yeezevee. Thanks.
So glad to see your response charlesle_M..

Well in the history of Islam any fellow who may have appeared as enlightened man Got Beheaded ..lol.. and Mansur Al-Hallaj is no exception to that rule

Image
In another controversial statement, al-Hallaj claimed "There is nothing wrapped in my turban but God," and similarly he would point to his cloak and say, ما في جبتي إلا الله Mā fī jubbatī illā l-Lāh "There is nothing in my cloak but God."

These utterances led to a long trial, and his subsequent imprisonment for 11 years in a Baghdad prison. He was publicly executed on March 26, 922.
with best wishes
yeezevee
Gauge123
Posts: 282
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Re: Are ahadith legal/part of Islam?

Post by Gauge123 »

Al-Hallaj:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansur_Al-Hallaj" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mansur believed in union with the Divine, that God was within him, and that he and God had become one and the same. Mansur was cut into many pieces because in the state of ecstacy he exclaimed Ana al Haq "I am the truth". He was executed in public in Baghdad. They cut him into pieces and then they burnt his remains. He kept repeating "I am the Truth" as they kept cutting his arms, legs, tongue and finally his head. He was smiling, even as they chopped off his head. Al-Hallaj wanted to testify of this relationship to God to others thus even asking his fellow Muslims to kill him (Massignon, 79) and accepting his execution, saying that "what is important for the ecstatic is for the One to reduce him to oneness." (Massignon, 87)
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