Mughal the Infidel.

Prove Islam is from God, why it is the 'One True Religion'.
antineoETC
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by antineoETC »

Wow Mughal, I see what you've been doing these past three months!

Many many words there. I just require one: YES or NO to my above question of whether you agree with Allah that those guilty of sexual activity that Allah declares unlawful must be pitilessly flogged 100 times. Do you? YES or NO. No other words are required of you.
"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website
antineoETC
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by antineoETC »

Another vitally important thing one must come to know to understand the quran properly is origin and development of human language to some degree to see why translating or interpreting the quran is so difficult for humanity as a whole.
So let's leave it to those whose first language is the language of the Quran. The Saudis. If they can't be relied on to interpret the Qur'an properly them you certainly can't Mr Mughal.
"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website
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pr126
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by pr126 »

Are Reformers Making a Change?

Islam: an idea to kill and die for.
sum
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by sum »

Hello Mughal

In your version of the Koran, what would it have to say if I refused to accept that Allah existed or that Muhammad was not a prophet and that I was an atheist who refused to believe in gods?

Would I be fought and killed?

sum
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by sum »

Hello Mughal

Will you please answer my question? Why are you hiding away? As soon as you have to face a question you run away. Is this because your version of the Koran has answers to my questions that would show you and your Koran in a very poor light?

sum
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by sum »

Hello antineoETC

Mughal will do to you as he always does to me when asked difficult questions - he will disappear for weeks on end and then come back with several unreadable pages on a different subject hoping that everyone has forgotten about the questions that we have asked - just like SAM does to me.

sum
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by sum »

I think that Mughal has gone into hibernation.

sum
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by sum »

I don`t think that Mughal will reappear until the Spring when his hibernation is over.

sum
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Ariel
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Ariel »

sum wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:58 pm
I don`t think that Mughal will reappear until the Spring when his hibernation is over.

sum
:*) We can pray to Allah that he wakes op sooner.
The heart of the wise inclines to the right,
but the heart of the fool to the left.
Mughal
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by Mughal »

So far I have explained only a few key points about why human beings face problems when they try to understand the quranic text. It should be therefore clear to all as to why humans must come to know things I am explaining before they could try to understand the quranic text. I am going to try and explain some more key points which hopefully will help people understand the quran properly.

When human beings write their books, they have in their minds purposes for which they write their books. The very same is true about God. It will be very foolish for us human beings to think that God will send us a book that has no purpose at all to serve. This purpose is or has to be guidance for humanity from God. Guidance about what? Information regarding why God created humans and all the rest and what things and people are supposed to do so that the purpose for which God has set up this stage could become fulfilled. Not only that but this information must also contain such information in it which proves the book God sent beyond any reasonable doubt and not a human creation.

By reading the quranic text we cannot fail to see that God does have a purpose for revealing his message. The purpose has been explained already ie God created his creation for his purpose according to his own plan so he gave people his messages to explain to them his program so that they carry it out faithfully for sake of goodness of humanity and God. No doubt therefore that it is the purpose that gives this book the quran its proper context. Once humanity has established properly a proper human community in the kingdom of God then both God and humanity will become very pleased with each other. Humanity will become very pleased with God because God has given it the needed guidance that will help it establish kingdom of God and God will be very pleased with humanity because people will have worked very, very hard to fulfil the purpose for which God has created it. This is how God and humanity will end up as if patting each other's back. All because God wanted to express himself and he wanted someone to appreciate him so he ended up creating things that he has created. This creation that we see is not necessarily the very first creation of God nor the very last. God uses word AALAAMEEN in the quran ie worlds. So there could be countless number of worlds ie very many, not this one alone.

Anyway the main point to realise for us human beings is that we human beings learn things by trial and error method. That is what we have been doing right from day we were born. This is when science started for us ie we interacted or experimented or played with things directly and learned from that and we have been building upon that knowledge always generation after generation. On our journey of discovery, as we first learn simple things that leads us to start making sense of more and more complex or difficult things be they about real world realities or revelation of God. Our amazement never comes to an end ie we always find something new to surprise ourselves.

The question now is, how to find the proper context of the quranic text? We can do that by reading the quranic text as a random text but we must try and remember whatever we read in it so that once we have read it for information in it the information is not forgotten or lost because we will have to connect the pieces of that information in such a way that it makes the best possible sense to us. In a way we are merely collecting data randomly but then we are going to arrange or organise the data in way that makes proper sense to us. It is a process like gathering data for statistical purposes and then setting it up the way it makes sense.

The quranic data will very clearly show that it is about a way of life for mankind. It tells people one way of life is right for them to live by and any other way of life is wrong because it will harm or destroy them by hands of each other due to being based upon idea of personal gains at each other's expense. The way of life mainly involves human society, its set up, its politics, its culture and its economics and all the rest is its detail. This is why if we take away these things from the way of life told in the quran then the quran serves no purpose at all for humanity. This is why to think deen of islam has nothing to do with politics or economics etc is not and cannot be proper understanding of the quranic message as already explained. The quranic text is like pieces of a complete jig-saw puzzle which need to be put together properly before the true picture becomes obvious to us. This involves a lot of very hard work by the pioneers and once they have done it from then on it will become just like any other teaching taught in schools etc. It has become hard only because people who were given the quran originally to spread it properly worldwide for their best future forgot its proper context themselves due to becoming slack in their duty to God and humanity after the passing away of the final God sent messenger. This is why it has become a huge task for mankind to rediscover its proper context from scratch again and it can be done if people put needed effort and hard work in it and they will when all else fails for them or when they run out of all nonsensical excuses.

Once the true message in the quran is decoded properly by individuals the book will become alive again but till then humanity has a huge task on its hand if they truly desire blissful, dignified and secure existence as a proper human community in the kingdom of God. The reason why they should work on the quranic text is because otherwise killings of people by people will not stop and terrible agonising human suffering will not come to an end. I became aware of lots of things about the quran during my endeavour for understanding the quran properly which I am sharing here for benefit of others. Rest is all up to individuals themselves. I will carry on doing what I can but if more and more people will get involved in this work, we will be able to get where we need to be much quicker and much easier. This will help cut down our painful suffering by hands of each other for so many in this world.

My work on the quran can help people know the purpose and context of the quranic text. However I am now going to explain how to build on that. For this the main rule is, the quran must be understood through the quran in light of real world realities. This means whoever reads the quran must be reasonably aware of the real world realities to a reasonable degree. The quranic text therefore must be interpreted rationally and not irrationally as mullaans have done for last 1400 years. This means one should have reasonably good knowledge of a human language, particularly in sense of words and their meanings as already explained in detail as well as the mechanism involved. It is because if one meaning of a word renders the quranic text contradictory or senseless then one has to try interpreting it with another meaning of the very same word. This is why if one is very limited in his vocabulary or has no sense of mechanism involved in word and their meanings then such a person cannot make proper sense of the quranic text just by knowing how to speak arabic language. The quran requires that any person who tries to understand it properly must know real world realities and all that is necessary to know about the human language otherwise one can forget it.

Once one has these capabilities as already explained then the next rule is very straightforward, which is knowing the structure of the quranic text. The structure of the quranic text is such that it discusses issues or things in an interactive way so that a person who reads the quran is forced to use his own brain to connect the dots or seemingly missing links. For example, we have been hearing that the quran tells its supporters to kill those who oppose it. It does but here is the catch, it also tells its supporters not to kill those who oppose it. Is this not a clear cut contradiction in the quran? No, it is not. Why not? It is because the quran also tells its supporters why ie why kill the kaafirs and why not to kill the kaafirs. This means God has given his reasons for people due to which and according to which people must act. This is why the quran must be read in own its proper context. So there are reasons which allow or disallow killing of people by people. This is why we all take out anti social elements from circulation in our own societies. This is why we have armies, police, courts and prisons or death chambers etc etc. So if anyone tries to portray the quran as a book of war instead of peace then one has to justify one's such claims about the quran otherwise one proves oneself a clear cut fool or a senseless person.

While I am at it let me also explain the legal system of the quran. Quranic shariah is only that which is consistent with the quranic declared purpose and its related aims and objectives. Any other interpretation of the quran is neither acceptable nor can be proven true against the quranic context. The declared or assigned objective of God for humanity is that, it should bring about a human society in the kingdom of God which reflects greatness of God as well as greatness of humanity ie the best of God and the best of humanity. It is because God is supposed to be great in the eyes of humanity due to giving human beings the best possible way of life to live by that cannot be paralleled or equalled by anyone ever. Likewise greatness of humanity in the eyes of God is supposed to be due to its such magnanimous efforts and hard works based upon its own freewill due to which people end up establishing a proper human community in the kingdom of God. This is how God will end up pleased with humanity and humanity will end up pleased with God. This is how God will be appreciated by humanity and humanity will be appreciated by God.

This is why quranic guidance or guidelines are absolutely necessary for humanity to follow for creating a proper constitution to base themselves upon as a proper human community in the kingdom of God and to legislate laws according to those aims and objectives for regulating themselves towards that end which God assigned for humanity. This is why no constitution and its laws can be taken as islamic which are not in line with the quranic program that is purpose based, the purpose for which God has created humanity and all the rest of the creation.

The next important point is to understand lawful and unlawful concept in deen of islam. In the proper quranic context it is not things that are lawful and unlawful but having or using them. In short things are things and God has created them to serve the purposes which God has assigned them and that is why they cannot be lawful or unlawful. Only their their uses by humanity can be lawful or unlawful. For example, one cannot be right in asking whether a gun is halaal or haraam or lawful or unlawful. It is an absurd question because things cannot be lawful or unlawful. Is pig halaal or haraam is equally an absurd question. The right question is, is it legal to make or have or use a gun? If the reason for which one makes or has or uses a gun is right then to make or to have or to use a gun is legal or lawful or legitimate but if not then it is unlawful or illegal or illegitimate to make or have or use a gun. Likewise one can ask if something is halaal or haraam to make or have or use or do etc etc. Food can also be halaal or haraam ie legal or illegal in the similar context. Even eating the cow or sheep or goat or camel meat can be haraam if the animal is not kept halaal way or gotten halaal way or killed halaal way etc etc. Meat that is rotten or gone off or bad even if it was originally halaal will turn haraam due to being harmful or damaging or destructive for human consumption for health reasons.

These points I am explaining are very useful for proper understanding of the quranic text. This is how all the nonsense mullaans talk about should become very obvious for people of knowledge who wish to know the truth about things about deen of islam. The rest of people are themselves as bad as mullaans or even worse who show their ignorance by attacking the quran without having proper knowledge about it. Here let me also state the fact that to create a proper constitution or to form laws according to it, is right of the ummah as a whole and not right of any individual no matter how knowledgeable and wise one is. Moreover constitution and its laws must be relevant to the stage the ummah has reached in its God assigned mission ie is ummah just a block of people living in a land with other people as a minority or do they have a land where in they are a majority? As a minority ummah has different responsibilities and as a majority it has different responsibilities. Likewise while there is no ummah at all then individuals who support the quranic ideology have very different responsibilities. There responsibility is only to learn the quran properly and teach it others faithfully. Ummah only comes to being if individuals come together to form an ummah not otherwise.

While I am at it let me also explain the fact that in deen of islam all objectives and laws from God are permanent and not abrogate-able. However there are different laws for different situations or circumstances this is why idea of abrogation is not needed. Mullaans failed badly to understand this very important point therefore they created absurd idea of abrogation of the revelations of God as well. Not only that they also came up with idea of abrogation of some verses of the quran itself. The fact is, it was right of God to plan things as he wanted right from the start. So he decided what he will do for what sort of period of time. This is why each and everything happens only for a duration of time already decided by God so there is no need for God to abrogate anything.

Likewise mullaans have invented idea about reasons for revelations of various verses or surahs of the quran. This is nonsense because God has been guiding humanity ever since it began to understand and make sense of things as I have explained already. This is why the quran cannot be interpreted according to whims or desires of individuals. It is because the quranic text needs to be justified as consistent within itself as well as in light of real world realities. For example, as explained already the quran is book of deen of islam and not a holy book of a religion called islam. It is because islam is not religion but a proper way of life from God for humanity to live by so that humanity could make this world a paradise for their own living as a proper human community in the kingdom of God. Religion is all about baseless beliefs and useless ritualism or lip service.
antineoETC
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by antineoETC »

With all due respect, Mughal, that doesn't answer my question of whether you agree with Allah that those guilty of what Allah defines as illegal sexual intercourse should be pitilessly flogged X100.
"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website
antineoETC
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by antineoETC »

Mughal wrote:While I am at it let me also explain the fact that in deen of islam all objectives and laws from God are permanent and not abrogate-able.However there are different laws for different situations or circumstances this is why idea of abrogation is not needed. Mullaans failed badly to understand this very important point therefore they created absurd idea of abrogation of the revelations of God as well. Not only that they also came up with idea of abrogation of some verses of the quran itself. The fact is, it was right of God to plan things as he wanted right from the start. So he decided what he will do for what sort of period of time.
That being the case Mughal please let me refer you to Qur'an 4:43:

O believers! Do not offer your Salah when you are drunk until you know what you are saying

Which clearly implies that it is OK for a believer to get drunk as long as they are sober for prayers.

However Qur'an 5.90 states:

O you who believe! Wine, and gambling, and idols, and divining arrows are but a means of defilement, of Satan’s doing. So avoid it, that haply you may prosper

Which is clearly telling Muslims to lay off booze completely.

Could you please explain to me why Allah is not contradicting himself?
"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website
frankie
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by frankie »

Mughal

For example, we have been hearing that the quran tells its supporters to kill those who oppose it. It does but here is the catch, it also tells its supporters not to kill those who oppose it. Is this not a clear cut contradiction in the quran? No, it is not. Why not? It is because the quran also tells its supporters why ie why kill the kaafirs and why not to kill the kaafirs. This means God has given his reasons for people due to which and according to which people must act.

You highlight very clearly how Islam is a mess of ambiguities, proving it cannot originate from a divine being, whose commands should be clear enough for humanity to follow, without any guesswork/confusion being involved.

If the god of the Quran was who it claims to be, there should be no need to kill anyone, as the commands of the God of the Bible are based upon love for God and all people, regardless of faith, which is the premise of the teachings of all prophets of this God,but NOT of Allah.

The Quran tells you why people must be fought, it is because of their unbelief in the Islamic god,and Mohammed as its prophet.

9.29 Abbas - Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs
(Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture) the Jews and Christians (as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day) nor in the bliss of Paradise, (and forbid not) in the Torah (that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the religion of truth) do not submit themselves to Allah through confession of Allah's divine Oneness, (until they pay the tribute readily) standing: from hand to hand, (being brought low) abased.

9.30-31 Kathir - Ibn Al Kathir
Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because They are Idolators and Disbelievers
Allah the Exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists, disbelieving Jews and Christians, who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against Allah, the Exalted. As for the Jews, they claimed that `Uzayr was the son of God, Allah is free of what they attribute to Him. As for the misguidance of Christians over `Isa, it is obvious. This is why Allah declared both groups to be liars…..

The objective of Islam is to bring all people to accept Allah as the only god, which was achieved by Mohammed and his subsequent followers through warfare, and warfare brings with it death, destruction, chaos and misery for all concerned. Allah/Mohammed proves it is a psychopathic,
warmongering, tyrannical god, whose only interest is based upon a self-promoting agenda to violently subjugate people to bring them to worship it.

If any human being had this same agenda today, they would be put under lock and key for the safety of all concerned, but you put your trust in this god for your salvation.WHY?

Allah proves to be a false god, and Mohammed proved by his words and actions to be a false prophet, as no prophet of the Bible God ever preached to fight anyone to bring them to worship YHWH.
You are a victim of Mohammed’s deception.


Religion is all about baseless beliefs and useless ritualism or lip service.

A Muslim is commanded not to question Islam in case he loses his faith, if that is not” baseless” beliefs, I don’t know what is.

As for” useless rituals”, look no further than the veneration a stone, by circulating a pagan temple, rituals the pagan Arabas performed long before Mohammed was born, which he retained for Islam.

You cannot complain about useless rituals” whilst at the same time still perfoming them living as a Muslim, you are commanded by your god to perform these very things in the name of your faith.

More Muslims are leaving Islam today than ever before in history,they are finding out they have been scammed by a devious pagan Arabian,who has taken Muslims for fools for 1400 years.

Its your decsion whether you want to remain a slave of this god,or break free from its chains of deception.
antineoETC
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Re: Mughal the Infidel.

Post by antineoETC »

The only way I think Mughal can even attempt to explain away the contradiction between sura 4.43 and 5.90 is to claim that the word "drunk" (or "intoxicated") is metaphorical or referring to disrupted thinking and movement caused by a medical condition like a stroke or diabetes. Is that what Allah means by "drunk"/"intoxicated" in 4.43 Mughal? Is Allah saying that if a Muslim becomes "drunk" on unIslamic notions or "drunk" with lust for a woman he should stay away from prayers until he has metaphorically "sobered up"? Or does he mean that a Muslim diabetic could become "intoxicated" by a hypoglycemic episode and should only go to prayers when he is feeling better?
"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website
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